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Old 30th November 2018, 11:14 PM   #1
Bob001
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Police stop drunk Tesla....

Police saw a driver asleep in his Tesla going 70 mph and chased him/it for seven miles before they could pull in front of it. When they slowed down it slowed down, and they eventually stopped it. He was charged with drunk driving.
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article...n-13435295.php

If the guy wasn't driving at all, was he really driving drunk?
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Old 30th November 2018, 11:36 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Police saw a driver asleep in his Tesla going 70 mph and chased him/it for seven miles before they could pull in front of it. When they slowed down it slowed down, and they eventually stopped it. He was charged with drunk driving.
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article...n-13435295.php

If the guy wasn't driving at all, was he really driving drunk?
I think the legal technically is that although a machine can control another machine, it can't be in charge of anything. The person in charge of the machine still bears all responsibility.

People listening to music in their stationary vehicles (with the motor not running) have also been known to be booked for drunk driving because the keys were in the ignition. Depending on where you live, you could also be booked if the keys are in your pocket and even if you are not sitting behind the wheel.
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Old 1st December 2018, 01:25 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Police saw a driver asleep in his Tesla going 70 mph and chased him/it for seven miles before they could pull in front of it. When they slowed down it slowed down, and they eventually stopped it. He was charged with drunk driving.
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article...n-13435295.php

If the guy wasn't driving at all, was he really driving drunk?
In the UK it would be in control of a vehicle whilst drunk, so answer is yes. Brings up an interesting wrinkle in the idea of self drive cars, presumably you would be able to give commands to your self driving vehicle even though you don't control it directly. Would you be classed as in control of a vehicle if you summoned your car to come and pick you up from the pub after you've had a few drinks?
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:13 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the UK it would be in control of a vehicle whilst drunk, so answer is yes. Brings up an interesting wrinkle in the idea of self drive cars, presumably you would be able to give commands to your self driving vehicle even though you don't control it directly. Would you be classed as in control of a vehicle if you summoned your car to come and pick you up from the pub after you've had a few drinks?
Provided there is the ability to manually override the autonomous function then yes. You are in control of the vehicle. If it got to the point where you were a passenger in a fully autonomous transport (effectively a robot taxi driver) then I think that's the point you would be or should be allowed to drink.
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Old 1st December 2018, 08:45 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Police saw a driver asleep in his Tesla going 70 mph and chased him/it for seven miles before they could pull in front of it. When they slowed down it slowed down, and they eventually stopped it. He was charged with drunk driving.
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article...n-13435295.php

If the guy wasn't driving at all, was he really driving drunk?
Oh autonomous cars will be such a joy. Someone can walk in front of a car, stop it, and their buddy can rob the driver. Yay.
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Old 1st December 2018, 09:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Police saw a driver asleep in his Tesla going 70 mph and chased him/it for seven miles before they could pull in front of it. When they slowed down it slowed down, and they eventually stopped it. He was charged with drunk driving.
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article...n-13435295.php

If the guy wasn't driving at all, was he really driving drunk?
Tesla is not autopilot. He was responsible for the vehicle - or failing to be so, as the case may be.

The real question here is how did the car go 7 miles with the guy asleep with it not stopping itself? After the last few updates doesn't it nag you constantly now to move your hands to check if you're paying attention? Like under a minute? Was he maybe not sleeping and just in a drunken stupor...but still semi-awake to keep the car going without really even being aware enough to realize there was a cop behind him? Cause that's terrifying.
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Old 1st December 2018, 10:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh autonomous cars will be such a joy. Someone can walk in front of a car, stop it, and their buddy can rob the driver. Yay.
I have mentioned this in the "autonomous cars will be mandatory" thread.

The crooks don't even have to risk their lives. A few empty cardboard boxes will do just as well. (And no, LIDAR cannot see through objects and tell that they're empty)
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Old 2nd December 2018, 05:17 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh autonomous cars will be such a joy. Someone can walk in front of a car, stop it, and their buddy can rob the driver. Yay.
Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I have mentioned this in the "autonomous cars will be mandatory" thread.

The crooks don't even have to risk their lives. A few empty cardboard boxes will do just as well. (And no, LIDAR cannot see through objects and tell that they're empty)
This seems to imply that you believe that human drivers won't stop for an obstruction or person in the road. Eyesight can't tell if a box is empty or not either.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:09 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This seems to imply that you believe that human drivers won't stop for an obstruction or person in the road. Eyesight can't tell if a box is empty or not either.
I don't think you get it.

If I'm about to be robbed in my car I will be quite happy to escape that by plowing through a cardboard box. I don't care if the box is empty or not. I might even drive through the robber to get away. I don't care if I break every bone in his body or even kill him.

But a robot car won't do any of that and so I am doomed to be robbed. I am powerless and the criminal is in full control of my ability to escape.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:39 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't think you get it.

If I'm about to be robbed in my car I will be quite happy to escape that by plowing through a cardboard box. I don't care if the box is empty or not. I might even drive through the robber to get away. I don't care if I break every bone in his body or even kill him.

But a robot car won't do any of that and so I am doomed to be robbed. I am powerless and the criminal is in full control of my ability to escape.
Not if you’re armed.... In an autonomous vehicle you could devote all your attention to your weapon without having to worry about driving as well.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:48 AM   #11
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Just arm the car instead so it kills the robbers. Guns don't kill people, cars kill people.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:58 AM   #12
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A robot car should be able to detect if any nearby pedestrian is carrying a gun. That should be a standard feature. Cops would love that feature for their own robot police vehicle.

Speaking of cops... can a criminal stop their robot car with a cardboard box? Or will the police always have functional drivable cars? Used cop cars would become very valuable if you can actually drive them.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 09:33 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I don't think you get it.

If I'm about to be robbed in my car I will be quite happy to escape that by plowing through a cardboard box. I don't care if the box is empty or not. I might even drive through the robber to get away. I don't care if I break every bone in his body or even kill him.

But a robot car won't do any of that and so I am doomed to be robbed. I am powerless and the criminal is in full control of my ability to escape.

I don't think you get it. A thief is not going to stand next to the box waving his gun. He'll hide, you'll stop for the box, and then he'll introduce himself. But yes, you'd still have a chance to drive away in your own car; the driverless car would likely stop at the obstruction and wait for instructions.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 10:03 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh autonomous cars will be such a joy. Someone can walk in front of a car, stop it, and their buddy can rob the driver. Yay.
The only way this would be different in regards to autonomous cars would be if you think a human driver would decide to run over someone walking in front of their car.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 10:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I have mentioned this in the "autonomous cars will be mandatory" thread.

The crooks don't even have to risk their lives. A few empty cardboard boxes will do just as well. (And no, LIDAR cannot see through objects and tell that they're empty)
Won't autonomous cars have door locks, and if there was cardboard boxes in the road would you seriously not stop, how would you know what was in the boxes?
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Won't autonomous cars have door locks, and if there was cardboard boxes in the road would you seriously not stop, how would you know what was in the boxes?
The year is 2071. Autonomous vehicles have become mainstream, and the world is paralysed with fear by criminals armed with cardboard boxes and terrible box related puns. The government and law enforcement powerless to act, the right to box a natural extention of the 2nd amendments amendment regarding the right to bear arms. The world needs someone to stand up to the criminal scum, the world needs a hero, the worl needs Boxcutter!
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:43 PM   #17
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if autonomous vehicles are mainstream, surrogates probably will be too.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:50 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
The year is 2071. Autonomous vehicles have become mainstream, and the world is paralysed with fear by criminals armed with cardboard boxes and terrible box related puns. The government and law enforcement powerless to act, the right to box a natural extention of the 2nd amendments amendment regarding the right to bear arms. The world needs someone to stand up to the criminal scum, the world needs a hero, the worl needs Boxcutter!
Best. Movie. Ever.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 03:19 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Police saw a driver asleep in his Tesla going 70 mph and chased him/it for seven miles before they could pull in front of it. When they slowed down it slowed down, and they eventually stopped it. He was charged with drunk driving.
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article...n-13435295.php

If the guy wasn't driving at all, was he really driving drunk?
He was in charge of a moving vehicle while drunk.

Clear enough.

And he was in charge and responsible because as of yet no legislation exists to transfer the responsibility of an automatic vehicle away from the driver.

Hans
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:26 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
He was in charge of a moving vehicle while drunk.

Clear enough.

And he was in charge and responsible because as of yet no legislation exists to transfer the responsibility of an automatic vehicle away from the driver.

Hans
If an autonomous car can't drive a drunk person home, then we have eliminated one of the big reasons to have one.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:37 AM   #21
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The Tesla is not an autonomous car.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 05:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
The Tesla is not an autonomous car.
For something that is not autonomous, it sure was exercising a lot of autonomy with that passed out person in the car. Did pretty well, too.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:55 AM   #23
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Does anyone honestly consider the current Tesla autopilot to be sufficiently sophisticated and robust enough to be trusted to drive with no oversight by a human?

At some point in the future, there may come a time to discuss whether a self-driving car should require a capable driver on board or if the self-driving car is considered adequately reliable to drive without intervention. A sufficiently mature technology may make human drivers obsolete. That time is not now.

Some guy passed out drunk while his Tesla keeps him from driving off the road is not that situation.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does anyone honestly consider the current Tesla autopilot to be sufficiently sophisticated and robust enough to be trusted to drive with no oversight by a human?.
That depends on what success rate I have to trust it to.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does anyone honestly consider the current Tesla autopilot to be sufficiently sophisticated and robust enough to be trusted to drive with no oversight by a human?
No, and not to start a big contentious discussion we've already had it's never going to get there if we don't let it try.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:16 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No, and not to start a big contentious discussion we've already had it's never going to get there if we don't let it try.
Sure. If we want this obviously good technology to bear fruit, we need to allow for early forms to develop. Might even require a few false starts and mishaps to make it happen and society ought to extend some leeway to allow for this.

Getting plastered and passing out while your Tesla auto-drives falls outside any reasonable leeway.

It's a testament to even the early stage auto-driver feature that this guy didn't end up causing a nasty accident.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:21 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No, and not to start a big contentious discussion we've already had it's never going to get there if we don't let it try.
Could it pass the drivers license test? If so, and we don't trust it, why do we let teenagers drive?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:53 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If an autonomous car can't drive a drunk person home, then we have eliminated one of the big reasons to have one.
Oh, the legislation will come, once truly autonomous cars become available. Tesla is not such a car.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:54 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does anyone honestly consider the current Tesla autopilot to be sufficiently sophisticated and robust enough to be trusted to drive with no oversight by a human?

At some point in the future, there may come a time to discuss whether a self-driving car should require a capable driver on board or if the self-driving car is considered adequately reliable to drive without intervention. A sufficiently mature technology may make human drivers obsolete. That time is not now.

Some guy passed out drunk while his Tesla keeps him from driving off the road is not that situation.
Precisely.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 07:54 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could it pass the drivers license test? If so, and we don't trust it, why do we let teenagers drive?
Oh I don't know Bob. How about a 30 page discussion about whether or not the state having to license people to drive at all is morally pure enough.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That depends on what success rate I have to trust it to.
Considering the direction discussions about autonomous cars generally take, we will expect success rates at least on par with those of sober, careful, and highly competent human drivers.

We invariably get the question "what if it has the option of hitting a concrete block or a senile 90 year old?" ... Or something like that. - As if we would expect a human to be able to make such a decision at all, not to mention in a split second.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:03 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could it pass the drivers license test? If so, and we don't trust it, why do we let teenagers drive?
Well, it seems we prefer to be killed by a human, rather than by a robot.

Don't ask me why.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:05 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Could it pass the drivers license test?
The Tesla?
No...not even slightly.

For starters, it wouldn't understand a word the test examiner was saying.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:37 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh autonomous cars will be such a joy. Someone can walk in front of a car, stop it, and their buddy can rob the driver. Yay.
This entire subconversation in this thread reminds me of the argument that seat belts are dangerous because they might delay you in getting out of a car that is on fire or in the water. It's probably true, but is a rare exception that is far outweighed by the safety benefits. It can be argued that the safety benefits, if any, of autonomous cars remain to be seen, but this is still in the nature of a special pleading, presenting a rare exception to the overall benefits as a fatal flaw.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:45 AM   #35
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If the Tesla was driving autonomously, it was driving 5 miles per hour over the speed limit of 65. Will or do autonomous driving cars travel over the speed limit? I hope NO is the answer, thus this drunk driver was driving and probably on cruise control...
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:47 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Will or do autonomous driving cars travel over the speed limit? I hope NO is the answer, thus this drunk driver was driving and probably on cruise control...
Depends. Plenty of people argue the whole "The Flow of Traffic is Sacred and Cannot Ever Be Impeded" angle when it comes to the speed limit so for them the "moral" thing for an autonomous car to do would be to drive over the speed limit if that is what the other cars are doing.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:50 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
This entire subconversation in this thread reminds me of the argument that seat belts are dangerous because they might delay you in getting out of a car that is on fire or in the water. It's probably true, but is a rare exception that is far outweighed by the safety benefits. It can be argued that the safety benefits, if any, of autonomous cars remain to be seen, but this is still in the nature of a special pleading, presenting a rare exception to the overall benefits as a fatal flaw.
(About walking in front of an autonomous car to stop and rob it)

It is an example of the tunnel sight that often happen to us when we try to see into the future and assume that only one parameter changes.

Obviously, one of the simpler challenges with such cars will be to enable them to lock the doors, transmit an alarm with their exact position to the nearest police authority, and stream nice HR video of the would-be robber.

I don't think it will be a big problem.

Hans
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Old 3rd December 2018, 09:52 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Depends. Plenty of people argue the whole "The Flow of Traffic is Sacred and Cannot Ever Be Impeded" angle when it comes to the speed limit so for them the "moral" thing for an autonomous car to do would be to drive over the speed limit if that is what the other cars are doing.
Once autonomous cars are the norm, speed limits will not be needed. They will simply adapt their speed to the prevailing conditions.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:09 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
If the Tesla was driving autonomously, it was driving 5 miles per hour over the speed limit of 65. Will or do autonomous driving cars travel over the speed limit? I hope NO is the answer, thus this drunk driver was driving and probably on cruise control...
How would the Tesla's computer know the speed limit? It would of course be entirely possible to place transmitters on the road to inform an autonomous car's computer of the speed limit, but I don't believe this has actually been done anywhere yet, so I suspect that the Tesla was just keeping pace with the car in front of it, which apparently was also 5 mph over the limit.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:13 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
How would the Tesla's computer know the speed limit?
GPS and GIS. It would be trivial.

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