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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:15 AM   #41
CORed
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Depends. Plenty of people argue the whole "The Flow of Traffic is Sacred and Cannot Ever Be Impeded" angle when it comes to the speed limit so for them the "moral" thing for an autonomous car to do would be to drive over the speed limit if that is what the other cars are doing.
I used to be a believer in keeping up with the flow of traffic. What really changed my mind was driving home from a camping vacation on I-70 west of Denver, CO in a heavy rain. How heavy? Well, I didn't get a very good look, but I think I might have seen an old guy loading a bunch of animals into really big boat. After about the third time I felt my vehicle start to hydorplane, I said to myself, "This is stupid.", moved to the right lane, and slowed down to a speed where I felt confident I could keep the damn thing under control.

ETA: At the time, I was driving a Ford Bronco II. It was a great little offroad vehicle, but the high clearnce and short, narrow wheelbase that made it so good offroad pretty well guaranteed that if I got it sideways, it was going to roll.

Last edited by CORed; 3rd December 2018 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:17 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
How would the Tesla's computer know the speed limit? It would of course be entirely possible to place transmitters on the road to inform an autonomous car's computer of the speed limit, but I don't believe this has actually been done anywhere yet, so I suspect that the Tesla was just keeping pace with the car in front of it, which apparently was also 5 mph over the limit.
There's already cars on the road now that will read the speed limits on signs and let you know if you are speeding.

One of the more recent BMWs can go so far as to read a "Wrong Way Sign" and puts up a "Check Direction of Travel" warning.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:18 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Once autonomous cars are the norm, speed limits will not be needed. They will simply adapt their speed to the prevailing conditions.

Hans
Regardless of how close we are to autonomous car we are a long, long, long way from autonomous cars being the only cars on the road.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:04 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Regardless of how close we are to autonomous car we are a long, long, long way from autonomous cars being the only cars on the road.
I'm sure you are right. Even if a fully functional autonomous car were put into production and approved tomorrow, it would take decades before non-autonomous cars are off the road, barring legislation to ban them.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:10 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
GPS and GIS. It would be trivial.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:32 AM   #46
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A lot of GPS apps will tell you the speed limit (the Garmin system in my Dodge does and it's 5 or 6 years old at this point) but they aren't reading the signs, they are just depending on (not always accurate) publicly available data.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:34 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
How would the Tesla's computer know the speed limit?
Both Waze and Apple Maps display a replica of the speed limit sign on screen when I use them to navigate. I think that my Garmin thingie from 10 years ago did this too, but no idea how.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:47 AM   #48
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Earlier systems simply pulled the data from a database and matched it with the location the GPS was showing the car at. If the GPS put you Old Thisway Street and the database told the GPS that Old Thisway Street was 35 miles per hour, that's what it displayed.

Newer smart car systems are actually capable (to some degree) read the actual signage. I'd wager the previous system will still be retained as a backup/supplement.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:53 AM   #49
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Stuff like this is why I, to some degree, I think that "Self Driving Cars" probably aren't going to be this singular thing that just suddenly pops into existence.

Some high end cars you already have to "drive" less than regular cars with things like adaptive cruise, lane departure, self parking. Hell you have to drive a car now with an automatic transmission and no choke less than you "drove" a car that didn't have those features.

Sure they'll probably be a "Okay now you are no longer expected to pay attention to the road" tipping point in there somewhere, but I do think it will be more of a gradual process overall than people think.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 01:51 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
GPS and GIS. It would be trivial.

Dave
Just the same way as your GPS device.

Hans
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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, it seems we prefer to be killed by a human, rather than by a robot.

Don't ask me why.

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Old 3rd December 2018, 02:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
How would the Tesla's computer know the speed limit? It would of course be entirely possible to place transmitters on the road to inform an autonomous car's computer of the speed limit, but I don't believe this has actually been done anywhere yet, so I suspect that the Tesla was just keeping pace with the car in front of it, which apparently was also 5 mph over the limit.
I have two different free apps on my phone that give me speed limit notifications based on gps location and mapping software (satnav maps have the speed limits to calculate travel times). I doubt the Tesla used speed limit data in this case (cruise control, lane following and drive till the battery runs out would be my guess), but the data is easily available.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 04:53 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I have two different free apps on my phone that give me speed limit notifications based on gps location and mapping software (satnav maps have the speed limits to calculate travel times). I doubt the Tesla used speed limit data in this case (cruise control, lane following and drive till the battery runs out would be my guess), but the data is easily available.
We regularly have temporary speed limits for road works, events etc.

They are unlikely to be on any database.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 08:52 PM   #54
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the man was a Los Altos planning commissioner
[and?] a real estate developer who runs the Kor Group

Isn't that a conflict of interest?
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Old 4th December 2018, 03:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
How would the Tesla's computer know the speed limit? It would of course be entirely possible to place transmitters on the road to inform an autonomous car's computer of the speed limit, but I don't believe this has actually been done anywhere yet, so I suspect that the Tesla was just keeping pace with the car in front of it, which apparently was also 5 mph over the limit.
My car displays the current speed limit on the dashboard and it's way less sophisticated than a Tesla.

Of course, it doesn't know if there's a temporary speed restriction, like road works, but reading speed signs is probably one of the easiest problems for automated cars.
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Old 4th December 2018, 04:27 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
We regularly have temporary speed limits for road works, events etc.

They are unlikely to be on any database.
You'd be surprised, most temporary speed limits I encounter when traveling for work have been reported and come up on Waze. It utilises the user base to notify and validate local data.
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Old 4th December 2018, 05:08 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
We regularly have temporary speed limits for road works, events etc.

They are unlikely to be on any database.
A simple change in the law could take care of that; temporary speed limits would only be legally binding if they were on a specific database, just as at the moment they're only legally binding if they're properly signed. I would assume that there's some kind of procedure at the moment for determining how, where or when temporary speed limits can and should be assigned, and it's not the simple right of anyone to put up any speed limit signs they please, so all that's required is a change of process.

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Old 4th December 2018, 05:17 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
A simple change in the law could take care of that; temporary speed limits would only be legally binding if they were on a specific database, just as at the moment they're only legally binding if they're properly signed. I would assume that there's some kind of procedure at the moment for determining how, where or when temporary speed limits can and should be assigned, and it's not the simple right of anyone to put up any speed limit signs they please, so all that's required is a change of process.

Dave

Or rfid chips in speed signs, starting with changed and temporary signs. It's certainly one of the most trivial problems to overcome in the overall job of creating a self driving car.
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Old 4th December 2018, 07:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh autonomous cars will be such a joy. Someone can walk in front of a car, stop it, and their buddy can rob the driver. Yay.
You will have to install the South African software patch and accessories.
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Old 4th December 2018, 07:49 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Oh autonomous cars will be such a joy. Someone can walk in front of a car, stop it, and their buddy can rob the driver. Yay.
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This seems to imply that you believe that human drivers won't stop for an obstruction or person in the road. Eyesight can't tell if a box is empty or not either.
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Old 4th December 2018, 02:26 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
XKCD has always been their first.
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Old 4th December 2018, 02:57 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Stuff like this is why I, to some degree, I think that "Self Driving Cars" probably aren't going to be this singular thing that just suddenly pops into existence.

Some high end cars you already have to "drive" less than regular cars with things like adaptive cruise, lane departure, self parking. Hell you have to drive a car now with an automatic transmission and no choke less than you "drove" a car that didn't have those features.

Sure they'll probably be a "Okay now you are no longer expected to pay attention to the road" tipping point in there somewhere, but I do think it will be more of a gradual process overall than people think.
I will never give up my stick shift until it is taken from my cold, dead........whatever.
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Old 5th December 2018, 03:23 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This seems to imply that you believe that human drivers won't stop for an obstruction or person in the road. Eyesight can't tell if a box is empty or not either.
No it implies that if the person pulls out a gun I'd like the option of running them over or speeding away at a high (gasp, even illegal) rate of speed.
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Old 5th December 2018, 03:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Painting fake lines on the road would fool humans? A cardboard cutout would stop a human driver preventing them from moving forward? I don't think so.
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Old 6th December 2018, 10:06 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Painting fake lines on the road would fool humans? A cardboard cutout would stop a human driver preventing them from moving forward? I don't think so.
Have you driven on a busy highway with confusing lines on the road? They are doing long term construction on the highway near me and there's faint lines of the old lanes that have seen been shifted, and people get confused by them. Constantly.

And yeah, something human like, even just a cardboard cutout, suddenly dropping in front of me is gonna cause me to slam on my brakes or try to avoid it.
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Old 6th December 2018, 10:11 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Painting fake lines on the road would fool humans? A cardboard cutout would stop a human driver preventing them from moving forward? I don't think so.
1. Yes it would.

2. You're missing the point of the comic, that regardless of the exact methodology "screwing" with self driving cars isn't going to be any easier than screwing with drivers. And it's largely not going to happen for the same reason, people just generally aren't sociopaths.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm sure you are right. Even if a fully functional autonomous car were put into production and approved tomorrow, it would take decades before non-autonomous cars are off the road, barring legislation to ban them.
And due to incurred costs to do that I suspect any legislator proposing such would be out of office ASAP.
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Old 8th December 2018, 06:01 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I'm sure you are right. Even if a fully functional autonomous car were put into production and approved tomorrow, it would take decades before non-autonomous cars are off the road, barring legislation to ban them.
They probably never will, entirely.

There are places where fully autonomous cars make little or no sense, e.g. rural areas where most roads are dirt roads, maybe even not usable during certain seasons. (Or my own island, where one of the important roads is the beach.)

For recreation, some people will drive classic cars just as some sail sailboats.

However, in some large cities, it is quite likely that manual cars, or cars operated manually (I assume that for a long time some cars will come with both options), will be prohibited. Here automatic cars will be far safer and more efficient, and public "dial a car" vehicles will solve a lot of space and parking problems.

Hans
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:07 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Police saw a driver asleep in his Tesla going 70 mph and chased him/it for seven miles before they could pull in front of it. When they slowed down it slowed down, and they eventually stopped it. He was charged with drunk driving.
https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article...n-13435295.php

If the guy wasn't driving at all, was he really driving drunk?
If he is the only occupant and thus the driver then he is guilty of drunk driving OR some form of dangerous driving.
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Old 8th December 2018, 04:38 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Painting fake lines on the road would fool humans? A cardboard cutout would stop a human driver preventing them from moving forward? I don't think so.
Thanks. You beat me to this.

This is how the cult of "Autonomous Cars Are Magic" works...

1. Someone points out a problem.
2. Cultist waves hands and says "that is not a problem"
3. Profit!
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Old 8th December 2018, 06:41 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
the man was a Los Altos planning commissioner
[and?] a real estate developer who runs the Kor Group

Isn't that a conflict of interest?
Probably not unless there was a question of the city purchasing property that he holds an interest in.
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:38 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
XKCD has always been their first.
there But no biggie...…...
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:05 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
there But no biggie...…...
No, you're absolutely right and it irritates me no end when other people get it wrong. Unfortunately, waaaay too late to edit. (He says while checking his "you're", "too" and "to"!)
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:25 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
1. Yes it would.

2. You're missing the point of the comic, that regardless of the exact methodology "screwing" with self driving cars isn't going to be any easier than screwing with drivers. And it's largely not going to happen for the same reason, people just generally aren't sociopaths.
Yeah, point 2 is the thing. I've never heard anyone in the UK express any concern about this aspect. We (from what I've heard discussed anyway) are more concerned about the driving ability of the software, it's capability of dealing with unpredictable behaviour from manual cars and adverse road conditions.
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:58 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Yeah, point 2 is the thing. I've never heard anyone in the UK express any concern about this aspect. We (from what I've heard discussed anyway) are more concerned about the driving ability of the software, it's capability of dealing with unpredictable behaviour from manual cars and adverse road conditions.
Well apparently in America people aren't going to accept self driving cars until they cars are capable of going online and arguing about the trolley problem with them.
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Old 11th December 2018, 02:44 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well apparently in America people aren't going to accept self driving cars until they cars are capable of going online and arguing about the trolley problem with them.
The trolley problem aspect gets discussed over here, not much but it does, it's the "if you can't run someone over they'll rob you" aspect that's missing.
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Old 11th December 2018, 10:55 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Painting fake lines on the road would fool humans?


Yes, quite possibly. This already happens in cases where it's snowing a lot. You can't see the lines as painted on the road, so lots of people tend to follow the tire tracks of the cars that preceded them.

Every so often, one of the them follows the tracks right into a ditch.
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Old 11th December 2018, 11:15 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Painting fake lines on the road would fool humans? A cardboard cutout would stop a human driver preventing them from moving forward? I don't think so.
What's a "fake line"? Is that like "fake news"... a line that you don't agree with?

A line is a line. If it's painted onto the roadway, yes it'd fool a human. Why wouldn't it? How do you think the "not fake" lines on the road get there? They're painted on. The only difference is whether someone was authorized to paint them on or not and neither your self-driving car nor yourself actually has the pedigree and work order copies available. For all intents and purposes lines painted on the roads look legitimate.

And the cardboard cutout would depend on the visibility, the speed at which approached and the visibility factor. I've braked for pictures on billboards that caught the light on a curve "just so".
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Old 12th December 2018, 07:48 AM   #79
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Just an observation here, but haven't there already been car-jackings where the vehicle was stopped by a person standing in the road, and the car-jacker came up from the side?

So saying this wouldn't happen to humans is a bit odd, seeing as how it already has happened to humans.
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Old 12th December 2018, 07:52 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just an observation here, but haven't there already been car-jackings where the vehicle was stopped by a person standing in the road, and the car-jacker came up from the side?

So saying this wouldn't happen to humans is a bit odd, seeing as how it already has happened to humans.
Hypothetically, what would be the point of jacking a car that is reporting its' location up-to-the-second, and could possibly be remotely disabled?
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