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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 6th December 2018, 12:20 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
If that's the purpose, I can get behind that. But anyone hoping for a genuine discussion, to persuade them, or to shame/embarrass them has fallen for the trap.
In all honesty, I probably also hope for a genuine discussion, as unlikely as it may be.

On the other hand, you never know when you can be surprised. I recently had an argument (very civil, though) about religion on a forum in which there are notoriously rude jerks that post, and the person I was disagreeing with stood up very strongly for me against some jerk when said jerk was a jerk to me.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:26 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
We are now in the "Why are you pulling me over for running a red light when there are murderers and rapists roaming the streets?" level of apologetics.
To defend the indefensible, one must use the power of stupidity to its fullest.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:35 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
You're assuming that Mueller charged him on everything that he could charge him on. The question, if that is the case, is why did Flynn cooperate as thoroughly as he did in order to avoid a sentence of no more than 6 months? And why is Mueller happy to charge him now if he may be required at a later date to provide more information or testify?

A reasonable explanation is that Mueller has other charges against Flynn that he is choosing not to charge as part of a plea deal, and if Flynn breaks that deal then Mueller can bring those other charges.
That reason had been explicitly stated already by sources. You turn and you get to pick your charge.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:36 PM   #484
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IT is quite likely that Flynn has been pointing fingers at Russians at least as much as at Trump campaigners - I believe Mueller does want take Putin to court - or the closest feasible alternative to that.
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:56 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
People here can't seem to help themselves. The trolls are playing by a different set of rules. If their posts provoke a reaction from the libs or they control the conversation by distracting/diverting the conversation to what they're talking about instead of what's actually important and relevant then they've won. It doesn't matter if what they post is factually wrong, conspiracy theory, partisan bias, or hypocrisy. It doesn't matter if those who respond are correct, or mock them, or annihilate their argument. Those aren't the rules of their game. By their rules, almost any response means they've accomplished their goal and therefore they've won.

But people here see the posts and think about how wrong it is and how they have a great counter argument, and can't help but respond. I understand this feeling and it's hard not to respond myself and I occasionally still fail in that regard. But after seeing the same pattern over and over I can come to no other conclusion.

'Those first 100 mouthfuls of dirt didn't taste very good, maybe the next one will taste better'

For the foreseeable future people will continue to eat mouthfuls of dirt and the trolls will continue to win their game.
Well said. It's very difficult not to respond to them when they write complete crap. Even though I use the ignore feature with a couple posters, I can still see what they write when others quote them and I'm very tempted to respond. Most of the time I'm successful. I wish I were as successful at ignoring dessert!
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:10 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
had i not responded to this? i thought i linked to an article?

oh bother, i will have to do some digging...
here is one article...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sia-probe.html

the problem is of course we will not get the 302s!
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:19 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Just from reading posts here it certainly seems some people do and it's not like anyone wants to admit it if it does.
Sometimes you pop into a thread and it takes a few exchanges before you realize that the poor, misguided soul who made a moronic or otherwise unsupported statement is, in fact, simply trolling. With each new mark who comes in assuming that all are participating from a position of intellectual honesty the troll gets to keep on trolling.
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:25 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
here is one article...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sia-probe.html

the problem is of course we will not get the 302s!
Your problem is you think the Daily Mail is a useful source. I read the article (from June 2018) and it's just as vapid as I expected.
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:25 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Your problem is you think the Daily Mail is a useful source. I read the article (from June 2018) and it's just as vapid as I expected.
cool cool
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:26 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Sometimes you pop into a thread and it takes a few exchanges before you realize that the poor, misguided soul who made a moronic or otherwise unsupported statement is, in fact, simply trolling. With each new mark who comes in assuming that all are participating from a position of intellectual honesty the troll gets to keep on trolling.
I have no illusions about The Big Dog, and neither does my dog (who's not impressed, unsurprisingly).
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:29 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
cool cool
As vapid a response as everyone expected.
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:31 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
As vapid a response as everyone expected.
Oh dear, a substance free fallacy like your post did not deserve even that, but everyone already knows that.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:13 PM   #493
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Your problem is you think the Daily Mail is a useful source. I read the article (from June 2018) and it's just as vapid as I expected.
Factual Reporting: MIXED

(a score of 4 – 6 out of 10, where 0 is best)

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/methodology/
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
here is one article...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sia-probe.html

the problem is of course we will not get the 302s!
The bigger problem is that there is no evidence in that article, there is merely (another) claim (by the congressman) that there is evidence. Yet you made the following claim that there was evidence:
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Keep in mind also when considering the Report that there is evidence that actual scumbos McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview.
and when asked for what this evidence is, the first thing you could do was to link to an article that had no evidence, but merely claimed that there was evidence. That's not a strong move.


Did I miss what the evidence that was presented in that article? Please point it out to me if I did.


I'm perfectly happy to condemn falsifying 302s by anyone, if and when there is evidence.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:23 PM   #495
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The bigger problem is that there is no evidence in that article, there is merely (another) claim (by the congressman) that there is evidence. Yet you made the following claim that there was evidence:
and when asked for what this evidence is, the first thing you could do was to link to an article that had no evidence, but merely claimed that there was evidence. That's not a strong move.


Did I miss what the evidence that was presented in that article? Please point it out to me if I did.


I'm perfectly happy to condemn falsifying 302s by anyone, if and when there is evidence.
But the statement by the congressman is the evidence, of course. He had access to them that we will not get, unfortunately which is why this whole discussion started out that those are the big issues that Mueller should be taking a gander at!

the question you should be asking yourself is whether there is probable cause and the answer should be: hell yes!

Say it out loud and proud: Hell YES!
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:34 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
Factual Reporting: MIXED

(a score of 4 – 6 out of 10, where 0 is best)

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-mail/

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/methodology/
The joke about the Daily Mail is that it is the Daily Fail. It is notorious for making up stories from whole cloth. They wrote stories about Amal Clooney's family not wanting her to marry George Clooney that were entirely fabricated. Similarly it reported on Amanda Knox as if she was guilty for years including an article about a party that was 90 percent fabricated. It's worse than the National Enquirer for accuracy.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:39 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
But the statement by the congressman is the evidence, of course. He had access to them that we will not get, unfortunately which is why this whole discussion started out that those are the big issues that Mueller should be taking a gander at!

the question you should be asking yourself is whether there is probable cause and the answer should be: hell yes!

Say it out loud and proud: Hell YES!
You're saying the Daily Mail's reporting that Mark Meadows said that McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview and you think that is evidence? Surely ye jest.

First off Meadows is like Trump. A notorious lying partisan POS. Also, if you read that article, Meadows doesn't say that. Jeez, and I thought you had something.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:41 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're saying the Daily Mail's reporting that a US Politician said that a US Politician said that McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview and you think that is evidence? Surely ye jest.
The politician actually claimed 'maybe growing evidence', so from none to maybe ever so slightly more than none.

And quiet air since June on the subject.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:46 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
But the statement by the congressman is the evidence, of course. He had access to them that we will not get, unfortunately which is why this whole discussion started out that those are the big issues that Mueller should be taking a gander at!

the question you should be asking yourself is whether there is probable cause and the answer should be: hell yes!

Say it out loud and proud: Hell YES!
Somebody saying that they have evidence in support of a claim is not sufficient evidence in support of that claim.

If I claim I have a nickel in my pocket, me saying that I have evidence that I have a nickel in my pocket is not sufficient evidence that I do: a picture of the contents of my pocket would be better evidence; a nickel-sized bulge in my pocket (no jokes, please) would be better evidence; testimony from someone who saw me put a nickel in my pocket would be better evidence.

We still don't know if there is sufficient evidence or not, especially since it's one person, and nothing has happened since June, that congressman's party is in control of the House, and the qualifier "growing evidence" does not equal sufficient evidence.

If I tell you that I have a nickel in my pocket, is that sufficient evidence that I do?

I encourage you not to get ahead of your skis: don't make claims until evidence is actually presented, and can be evaluated as to whether it is sufficient to support a claim based on that evidence.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:47 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
The politician actually claimed 'maybe growing evidence', so from none to maybe ever so slightly more than none.

And quiet air since June on the subject.
I just read his link to find out that the politician that was reference was Mark Meadows who after reading the sentencing recommendation for Flynn said that it was good news because it didn't say collusion.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:47 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
The politician actually claimed 'maybe growing evidence', so from none to maybe ever so slightly more than none.

And quiet air since June on the subject.
Second hand "maybe growing evidence" equals probable cause in almost all* jurisdictions. Unless the target worked on the Trump campaign and has admitted to breaking the law, then it is an unfounded Witch Hunt.


*Probably none, actually.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:48 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The joke about the Daily Mail is that it is the Daily Fail. It is notorious for making up stories from whole cloth. They wrote stories about Amal Clooney's family not wanting her to marry George Clooney that were entirely fabricated. Similarly it reported on Amanda Knox as if she was guilty for years including an article about a party that was 90 percent fabricated. It's worse than the National Enquirer for accuracy.
I hesitate to agree with that last part...

Mediabias has the NE listed as a Questionable Source, so they didn't even bother to give them a Factual Reporting rating. While the DM got a rating of Mixed.
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:56 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Somebody saying that they have evidence in support of a claim is not sufficient evidence in support of that claim.

If I claim I have a nickel in my pocket, me saying that I have evidence that I have a nickel in my pocket is not sufficient evidence that I do: a picture of the contents of my pocket would be better evidence; a nickel-sized bulge in my pocket (no jokes, please) would be better evidence; testimony from someone who saw me put a nickel in my pocket would be better evidence.

We still don't know if there is sufficient evidence or not, especially since it's one person, and nothing has happened since June, that congressman's party is in control of the House, and the qualifier "growing evidence" does not equal sufficient evidence.

If I tell you that I have a nickel in my pocket, is that sufficient evidence that I do?

I encourage you not to get ahead of your skis: don't make claims until evidence is actually presented, and can be evaluated as to whether it is sufficient to support a claim based on that evidence.
Lets fix your analogy. say that you are going into a meeting where they are going to show you a nickel. You come out and describe it to us. You would agree that is evidence yes?

But we clamor for more, but the Fuzz says they ain't gonna show you it to us.

Well you would certainly agree that there is enough evidence, mainly your statement, that requires that it go to the next level.

Further, there is also evidence that in other cases, say the design of the dime, the same characters admitted that they did not show the whole original design. well, that would raise your hackles, yes?

By gum is there enough evidence to open an investigation? HELL YES!
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Old 6th December 2018, 02:57 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
I hesitate to agree with that last part...

Mediabias has the NE listed as a Questionable Source, so they didn't even bother to give them a Factual Reporting rating. While the DM got a rating of Mixed.
Fair enough. I just know I have read articles that were fabricated by the Mail's reporters. Also, the Enquirer has had some good scoops over the years. But I will cede to your point. Thanks.
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:01 PM   #505
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:01 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Lets fix your analogy. say that you are going into a meeting where they are going to show you a nickel. You come out and describe it to us. You would agree that is evidence yes?

But we clamor for more, but the Fuzz says they ain't gonna show you it to us.

Well you would certainly agree that there is enough evidence, mainly your statement, that requires that it go to the next level.

Further, there is also evidence that in other cases, say the design of the dime, the same characters admitted that they did not show the whole original design. well, that would raise your hackles, yes?

By gum is there enough evidence to open an investigation? HELL YES!
Open an investigation? That wasn't the issue! You claimed that they DID alter the 502s. What happened to that claim of yours? You've reduced that claim down to merely "let's open an investigation."

And, the congressman did not describe the evidence that the 302s had been altered. He merely said that he had evidence that they had been altered. (Unless I missed that in the article, please point me to where he described what the evidence was.)
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:08 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Lets fix your analogy. say that you are going into a meeting where they are going to show you a nickel. You come out and describe it to us. You would agree that is evidence yes?
Fix? It wasn't broken.

If everyone in that meeting came out and described the same dime, then yes. That would be evidence. Oddly, no one else has confirmed this story.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
But we clamor for more, but the Fuzz says they ain't gonna show you it to us.

Well you would certainly agree that there is enough evidence, mainly your statement, that requires that it go to the next level.
But Flynn isn't making that statement. You're making that statement. No one with any knowledge of the situation at all, outside of this individual, is making that statement. Just you two.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Further, there is also evidence that in other cases, say the design of the dime, the same characters admitted that they did not show the whole original design. well, that would raise your hackles, yes?

By gum is there enough evidence to open an investigation? HELL YES!
As was pointed out, you keep backpeddling so much it's hard to tell where you're going to end up on this.
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:09 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
As for actual facts, recall that in April the Committee on Intelligence released a report stating that "Among the 44 findings in the report was a line stating that 'Federal Bureau of Investigation agents did not detect any deception during Flynn's interview.'”

As such, when considering the release of the Flynn sentencing report today, ask yourself about this finding by the House.

Keep in mind also when considering the Report that there is evidence that actual scumbos McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview.

Flynn pardon is very cool and very legal.
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Open an investigation? That wasn't the issue! You claimed that they DID alter the 502s. What happened to that claim of yours? You've reduced that claim down to merely "let's open an investigation."

And, the congressman did not describe the evidence that the 302s had been altered. He merely said that he had evidence that they had been altered. (Unless I missed that in the article, please point me to where he described what the evidence was.)
oh dear.... mayhap you will wish to review the discussion in context
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:12 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
oh dear.... mayhap you will wish to review the discussion in context
Translation: You got me, now I begin my attempt to bluff my way out of it to save face.
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:12 PM   #510
plague311
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
oh dear.... mayhap you will wish to review the discussion in context
But there isn't any evidence...there's just a claim by a solo individual. The only individual that is making that claim. Something don't pass the sniff test.
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:30 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
But there isn't any evidence...there's just a claim by a solo individual. The only individual that is making that claim. Something don't pass the sniff test.
Just like there is no* evidence of collusion. Hence, one is probable cause and the other is Which Hunt. Geez, people, why are you so confused?


*Except for the evidence.
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:35 PM   #512
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Just like there is no* evidence of collusion. Hence, one is probable cause and the other is Which Hunt. Geez, people, why are you so confused?

*Except for the evidence.
That post is not exactly making your point. Either you are making TBD's point, or employing double standards.

Either way, ring up another dinger for the big dog!
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:36 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Just to put this nonsense to bed, source:



There are multiple conversations, and multiple shady dealings between Flynn, Russia, and some with Turkey.

TBD is wrong, moving on.
Re Flynn lying to Pence, that seems to be the false fact that sticks. Sally Yates warned the WH about Flynn before they made up the lie to give Pence cover and excuse firing Flynn when they should have fired him when Yates shared the information.

ABC News: A timeline of Sally Yates' warnings to the White House about Mike Flynn
Quote:
Jan 29, 2017
... She explained to McGahn the reasons why the DOJ was informing the White House of this -- Flynn’s conduct was “problematic in and of itself,” they believed Pence was entitled to know the information about Flynn he was spreading “wasn’t true,” and that the American people had been misled about Flynn’s actions.

Yates stressed that one of the reasons why the DOJ decided to notify McGahn was because the Russians were aware of Flynn’s conduct, including that Flynn had misled Pence and that she had not accused Pence of “knowingly providing false information to the American people.”
Quote:
Feb. 9, 2017
Pence first heard that Flynn misled him about his contact with Russian Ambassador to the U.S. Sergey Kislyak, according to White House officials, two full weeks after Yates first met with McGahn.
The WH is claiming Pence didn't know Flynn was lying when the WH was well aware of they lying to the press 2 weeks earlier. Mind you, no one thinks Flynn was pulling off some dealings with Russia and Turkey without Trump et al knowing all about it. IOW, they obviously didn't need Yates filling them in.
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:39 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
oh dear.... mayhap you will wish to review the discussion in context
You made the claim that McCabe and Strozk had altered the 302s. I've been trying to get sufficient evidence from you to support that claim, and that still hasn't happened, so there's no other relevant context.

You have the following choices:

1. Present sufficient evidence for your claim that McCabe and Strozk altered the 302s.

2. Retract your claim.

3. Be intellectually dishonest in regards to the issue.
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:46 PM   #515
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
You made the claim that McCabe and Strozk had altered the 302s. I've been trying to get sufficient evidence from you to support that claim, and that still hasn't happened, so there's no other relevant context.

You have the following choices:

1. Present sufficient evidence for your claim that McCabe and Strozk altered the 302s.

2. Retract your claim.

3. Be intellectually dishonest in regards to the issue.
Actually, paul, I wrote:

"Keep in mind also when considering the Report that there is evidence that actual scumbos McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview."

Don't paraphrase my post and in the next breath accuse The Big Dog of being intellectually dishonest.

Next, I posted evidence, you are claiming that in your opinion it is not sufficient.

protip; your assessment of whether it is "sufficient" evidence does not contradict my claim that there was evidence.

second protip; your opinion ain't evidence and is just a "claim," you dig?
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:05 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually, paul, I wrote:

"Keep in mind also when considering the Report that there is evidence that actual scumbos McCabe and Strzok falsified the 304s for the Flynn interview."

Don't paraphrase my post and in the next breath accuse The Big Dog of being intellectually dishonest.

Next, I posted evidence, you are claiming that in your opinion it is not sufficient.

protip; your assessment of whether it is "sufficient" evidence does not contradict my claim that there was evidence.

second protip; your opinion ain't evidence and is just a "claim," you dig?
You are correct, you claimed there was evidence. My apologies.


But: when you say that you "posted evidence," assuming you mean the link to the daily mail article, that is still not evidence that McCabe and Strozk altered the 302s (sufficient or not). It's merely someone else saying, like you have, that there is evidence. It's still not evidence. Evidence would be the 302s (originals and altered forms, if any). Or a video of them doing the altering. Or someone saying that they saw the 302s. Or someone saying they saw them do the alterations. Or some communication between them that they were planning on changing the 302s, or that they had already changed them. Etc. Etc. Etc.


If we get 100 people saying they have evidence, we still don't have the evidence.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:06 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The bigger problem is that there is no evidence in that article, there is merely (another) claim (by the congressman) that there is evidence. Yet you made the following claim that there was evidence:
and when asked for what this evidence is, the first thing you could do was to link to an article that had no evidence, but merely claimed that there was evidence. That's not a strong move.


Did I miss what the evidence that was presented in that article? Please point it out to me if I did.


I'm perfectly happy to condemn falsifying 302s by anyone, if and when there is evidence.
@TBD One thing I'll add to Paul2's comments, he with the patience of a saint:

The source, GOP rep Mark Meadows, has credibility issues. As pathetic as Ryan and McConnell are, in terms of not checking Trump, at least they weren't on stage with him chanting "Lock her up!". Meadows is a raving, anti-democratic, tea party whackjob. I don't trust frothing zealots one bit.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:25 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
@TBD One thing I'll add to Paul2's comments, he with the patience of a saint:

The source, GOP rep Mark Meadows, has credibility issues. As pathetic as Ryan and McConnell are, in terms of not checking Trump, at least they weren't on stage with him chanting "Lock her up!". Meadows is a raving, anti-democratic, tea party whackjob. I don't trust frothing zealots one bit.
I agree. Paul has the patience of a saint.

TBD has been going on and on that McCabe and Strozk altered the 302s regarding Flynn as if this was a fact. And Paul and others have been pressing him for evidence for a while. And this is what TBD provides? What a joke! Really damn sad how easily some people seize on something when they desperately want to believe.

All I can say is KOO KOO.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:31 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Somebody saying that they have evidence in support of a claim is not sufficient evidence in support of that claim.

If I claim I have a nickel in my pocket, me saying that I have evidence that I have a nickel in my pocket is not sufficient evidence that I do: a picture of the contents of my pocket would be better evidence; a nickel-sized bulge in my pocket (no jokes, please) would be better evidence; testimony from someone who saw me put a nickel in my pocket would be better evidence.

We still don't know if there is sufficient evidence or not, especially since it's one person, and nothing has happened since June, that congressman's party is in control of the House, and the qualifier "growing evidence" does not equal sufficient evidence.

If I tell you that I have a nickel in my pocket, is that sufficient evidence that I do?

I encourage you not to get ahead of your skis: don't make claims until evidence is actually presented, and can be evaluated as to whether it is sufficient to support a claim based on that evidence.
Actually, by and large, your testimony about having a nickel is not bad evidence. It's not conclusive, but we accept appeal to reliable authority all the time.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:34 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Actually, by and large, your testimony about having a nickel is not bad evidence. It's not conclusive, but we accept appeal to reliable authority all the time.
Standalone? Without any corroborating evidence at all? I'd be interested in seeing that.

ETA: From what I understand, the hilited is suspect as well.
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