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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 1st December 2018, 01:53 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So, 'to the best of my recollection' I was telling the truth.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Pretty much. It generally boils down to arguing what the definition of "is" is when engaging.
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Old 1st December 2018, 01:57 PM   #42
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So, 'to the best of my recollection' I was telling the truth.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Shrike's post did not address what to say after that situation occurs. I was answering how someone could give an answer contrary to a document they also handed over.
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Old 1st December 2018, 01:59 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
But if the documents you gave them indicated the date then you knew the date, too. So why lie to say you didn't know it? If you do so it's not a perjury trap, it's just perjury.
Yes, you knew it, which does not mean you remembered it.

To refresh your recollection:

“Among the MANY dangers: the government is convinced that the truth is false, the government is lying, your memory is faulty, or you panic and make bad choices like some kind of HUMAN.”
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Old 1st December 2018, 01:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's your opinion that the FBI are that hard nosed. Trump and his cretins have changed their government documentation about meetings with the Russians several times and have faced absolutely zero penalties.

Post something solid that supports your position or just drop it.
I have no opinion on the case. I was responding to a specific post not about the case
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I believe they should not pursue this just yet.

I don't believe that the Special Counsel has released everything he knows about what Cohen has lied about. We have only seen those related to the most recent indictment against Cohen.

Mueller may well want other things kept quiet so as not to tip off those who are going to be in the gun. He will want to keep his powder dry and his cards close to his chest until its showdown time That time will come, and it will come soon.... the clock is ticking.

I said months ago that I believed Cohen was going to be very important to Mueller, more important than Manafort. Looks like I was right; a lot more right that I imagined.
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is not the way the trap is set, which should be obvious.

A typical way is that they ask you questions about information they already have.

When is the last time you met with x to discuss y?
They know it is June.
You forget and say April. You have just violated 18 usc 1001.
That's a nice story.

However - "Did you meet with Russian officials during the election campaign?" is a completely different type of question; that is closer to the lies that were told to the FBI and the House and Senate.

Getting those wrong is not an understandable mistake, it's a deliberate lie and attempt to mislead a legitimate investigation.
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:35 PM   #47
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If there is anyone here who actually believes that a "perjury trap" is a real thing, I challenge you now to create an imaginary scenario that involves me. Set a "perjury trap" for me, and I'll show you how easily I can avoid it.

You get to make up any set of imaginary historical circumstances, and then you can ask me questions and try to trap me into perjuring myself.

Remember...

1. The question (and any potential answer) has to be material to the circumstances, or its not perjury.

2. This is in an American Court, Grand Jury session, Senate or House hearing, under oath.

3. I am allowed to ask clarifying questions about your proposed scenario before we proceed with your questioning...

Have at it!
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's a nice story.

However - "Did you meet with Russian officials during the election campaign?" is a completely different type of question; that is closer to the lies that were told to the FBI and the House and Senate.

Getting those wrong is not an understandable mistake, it's a deliberate lie and attempt to mislead a legitimate investigation.
Actually Cohen was pinched not for lying about meeting with them (he didn’t meet with them) but lying about “agreeing” to meet. He was also pinched for not “recalling” he received a response in January of 2016 from the Russians about the hotel, which response was totally innocuous of course.
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:47 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually Cohen was pinched not for lying about meeting with them (he didn’t meet with them) but lying about “agreeing” to meet. He was also pinched for not “recalling” he received a response in January of 2016 from the Russians about the hotel, which response was totally innocuous of course.
Given what we know of the Russian connections, I dispute the highlighted. As does Cohen apparently now.

It's almost as though he has decided that he can partially atone by getting on the right side of history, incidentally damaging the person who had rewarded his loyalty with contempt and betrayals.
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:52 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Given what we know of the Russian connections, I dispute the highlighted. As does Cohen apparently now.

It's almost as though he has decided that he can partially atone by getting on the right side of history, incidentally damaging the person who had rewarded his loyalty with contempt and betrayals.
Happy to see that you do not dispute the “agreeing” and not recalling parts!

He got an email from and talked to an assistant/secretary. You seem to know something that is not set forth in the plea, please regale us with why those communications in January were not innocuous.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 1st December 2018, 02:53 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is not the way the trap is set, which should be obvious.

A typical way is that they ask you questions about information they already have.

When is the last time you met with x to discuss y?
They know it is June.
You forget and say April. You have just violated 18 usc 1001.
Err, no, that is not a perjury trap
18 USC §1001
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.
Pro Tip: Look up the meanings of the following three words

"knowingly"

"wilfully"

"materially" (as it pertains to the Law)
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Old 1st December 2018, 03:07 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Unfortunately yeah, at least according to the fuzz, you dig?

The law is determined by the legislature and courts, not the fuzz, you dig?
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Old 1st December 2018, 03:16 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The law is determined by the legislature and courts, not the fuzz, you dig?
THAT is adorable! I can assure you that plea bargaining has everything to do with how the fuzz* determines the law is going to be applied.

*Fuzz here meaning the FBI/prosecutors of course
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Old 1st December 2018, 03:28 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That does not really help to clarify anything, to be honest.
It clarifies that it's logical to ask everyone all the questions, regardless of what the prosecutor might hope for, because you don't know how many people might agree or disagree with any one other person.

What the prosecutor hopes for is irrelevant.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:21 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
It clarifies that it's logical to ask everyone all the questions, regardless of what the prosecutor might hope for, because you don't know how many people might agree or disagree with any one other person.

What the prosecutor hopes for is irrelevant.
No it doesn’t and it is not irrelevant.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:43 PM   #56
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It continues to amuse me watching certain resident Trumpists twist and turn and tie themselves into knots in their defense of their idol. With every post they prove Trump right when he made the "I could stand in the middle of Times Square and shoot someone" claim. They also prove HRC's "basket of deplorables" comment.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:49 PM   #57
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You gotta love Rudy saying that Cohen is a liar when he represents Trump and his gang. Let's take a step back and see all the material lies told by members of the Trump Administration about Russia.

Let's skip all the obvious lies Trump has told for a moment.

Cohen lied to the US Senate about Trump Tower Russia

Don Jr. lied about Trump Tower Russia
Don Jr. lied about the Trump Tower meeting (US)
Michael Flynn lied about his dealings with Russia.
KT McFarland lead about her dealings with Russia
Jared Kushner lied about his dealings with Russia.
Jeff Sessions lied about his dealings with Russia

Now here Trump is working on this huge deal with Russia to be financed by a Russian bank that we should drop sanctions against Russia. Talk about a massive conflict of interest as Trump could not borrow money from that bank because of the sanctions.

Everyone and I mean everyone in the Trump administration has been lying about Russia. The question is why? And the answer is obviously clear.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:49 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It continues to amuse me watching certain resident Trumpists twist and turn and tie themselves into knots in their defense of their idol. With every post they prove Trump right when he made the "I could stand in the middle of Times Square and shoot someone" claim. They also prove HRC's "basket of deplorables" comment.
Quality post.

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Old 1st December 2018, 04:55 PM   #59
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Talking

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Quality post.

Higher quality than the "rebuttal" certainly.

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Old 1st December 2018, 04:56 PM   #60
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Right, so the concept of a perjury trap is flawed and the best way to avoid committing the crime of perjury would be to tell the truth.

Meanwhile, why have we been having this conversation? I suspect it has something to do with a diversion that provides a momentary salve for the discomfort that accompanies butthurt at seeing one's favorite crime family exposed.
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Old 1st December 2018, 04:57 PM   #61
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K. T. McFarland is the person that proves TBD wrong.

As Flynn's Deputy, she knew exactly what he was doing, and she went on to lie to both the FBI and the Senate about what he told her as to his dealings with Russia after the Election.

If TBD was correct in all this, the FBI would have pressed charges against her, they know she lied to them, she went back and "clarified" her answers to them after Flynn was charged (i.e. claimed that she has forgotten about it, you know like the rest of the administration that has such bad memories about things, and like how all of Reagan's administration had bad memories about Iran and weapons and Contras.)

Oh, and looking it up, the Barry Bonds case has zero to do with what is going on here, and there was never a "perjury trap" set for Bonds. He was given immunity to testify and when it came time to give a yes or no answer on if he'd been supplied steroids, he waffled on about growing up and various other things and refused to answer the question. The second Appeal Court determined that while the answer wasn't a response to the question, that because of its content, the answer given was not material to the case and so would not have caused the Grand Jury to have been sidetracked, and that it should have been up to the Prosecutor to answer more questions to clarify the situation, so it was not therefore enough to consider his response an obstruction of Justice.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:10 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
K. T. McFarland is the person that proves TBD wrong.

As Flynn's Deputy, she knew exactly what he was doing, and she went on to lie to both the FBI and the Senate about what he told her as to his dealings with Russia after the Election.

If TBD was correct in all this, the FBI would have pressed charges against her, they know she lied to them, she went back and "clarified" her answers to them after Flynn was charged (i.e. claimed that she has forgotten about it, you know like the rest of the administration that has such bad memories about things, and like how all of Reagan's administration had bad memories about Iran and weapons and Contras.)

Rachel Maddow covers this all in depth. https://youtu.be/fy1INiv-nJQ

What should be clear to all who don't continue to keep their heads buried in the sand or up Trump's behind is the Russia had thoroughly compromised Donald Trump.

Definitely check out Maddow's coverage.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:15 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Rachel Maddow covers this all in depth. https://youtu.be/fy1INiv-nJQ

What should be clear to all who don't continue to keep their heads buried in the sand or up Trump's behind is the Russia had thoroughly compromised Donald Trump.

Definitely check out Maddow's coverage.
You mean on the show that I posted about here
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Smart, because don’t you live outside the United States?
That's way down the list of reasons. I expect you're just as much of an expert in international law as you are in US law.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:26 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
K. T. McFarland is the person that proves TBD wrong.

As Flynn's Deputy, she knew exactly what he was doing, and she went on to lie to both the FBI and the Senate about what he told her as to his dealings with Russia after the Election.

If TBD was correct in all this, the FBI would have pressed charges against her, they know she lied to them, she went back and "clarified" her answers to them after Flynn was charged (i.e. claimed that she has forgotten about it, you know like the rest of the administration that has such bad memories about things, and like how all of Reagan's administration had bad memories about Iran and weapons and Contras.)

Oh, and looking it up, the Barry Bonds case has zero to do with what is going on here, and there was never a "perjury trap" set for Bonds. He was given immunity to testify and when it came time to give a yes or no answer on if he'd been supplied steroids, he waffled on about growing up and various other things and refused to answer the question. The second Appeal Court determined that while the answer wasn't a response to the question, that because of its content, the answer given was not material to the case and so would not have caused the Grand Jury to have been sidetracked, and that it should have been up to the Prosecutor to answer more questions to clarify the situation, so it was not therefore enough to consider his response an obstruction of Justice.
Oy vey, almost painful at this point.....

This entire discussion started with the obviously false assertion that in order to avoid perjury all one has to do is tell the truth. Does that mean everyone who lies gets charged? **** no, otherwise mueller, comey, McCabe, Clinton an thousands of others in the deep state would be in jail.

C’mon man...

Your assertions about macFarland are wildly exaggerated.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's way down the list of reasons. I expect you're just as much of an expert in international law as you are in US law.
You are going to get arrested for violating international law? Huh.

Goo luck, maybe you can get the Poet to defend you.

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Old 1st December 2018, 05:33 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You mean on the show that I posted about here
I tip my cap.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:41 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You mean on the show that I posted about here
It was during the campaign that it was already abundantly clear that Putin had something on Trump. Pee-pee tape rumors notwithstanding, Trump was obviously beholden to Russians for some kind of investment/loan dealings. Maddow et al. are merely adding more dots to a line that was already easy to draw.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No it doesn’t and it is not irrelevant.
I'm happy to hear why it doesn't and why it's not.

In the future, we can cut to the chase if you could explain why the statements you make are true or reasonable, etc., in the same post as you make those statements.
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Old 1st December 2018, 05:59 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
It was during the campaign that it was already abundantly clear that Putin had something on Trump. Pee-pee tape rumors notwithstanding, Trump was obviously beholden to Russians for some kind of investment/loan dealings. Maddow et al. are merely adding more dots to a line that was already easy to draw.
I never bought the pee per tape rumors....(But you never know) But the idea that all of this a coincidence is really very hard to believe. (That is if you're not one of those morons who believe Trump on ANYTHING.)

Flynn is working for the Russians...(actually being paid by the Russians) He tells the Russians do not react to the new sanctions because Trump will lift them if he's elected. Flynn comes back from Russia and almost immediately Trump speaking directly to a Russian agent (Buttina) who is now being held in a US prison starts talking sanctions all the while Cohen is talking to Putin's banker. This is like a really bad version of a John Le Carre or Robert Ludlum novel

How a patriotic American can continue to support Trump given what we know today is beyond me.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:00 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
It was during the campaign that it was already abundantly clear that Putin had something on Trump. Pee-pee tape rumors notwithstanding, Trump was obviously beholden to Russians for some kind of investment/loan dealings. Maddow et al. are merely adding more dots to a line that was already easy to draw.
Didnt Trump sign sanctions against Russia, to which Russia retaliated? I think it even included limitations on Trump’s authority on this matter.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:01 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
This entire discussion started with the obviously false assertion that in order to avoid perjury all one has to do is tell the truth.
Which is true, as long as what you are saying in on point and truthful.

Quote:
Does that mean everyone who lies gets charged? **** no, otherwise mueller, comey, McCabe, Clinton an thousands of others in the deep state would be in jail.
This "deep state" only exists in the furtive minds of you and Trump.

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Your assertions about macFarland are wildly exaggerated.
What is exaggerated? She went to Congress and lied about Flynn's involvement with Russia. She went to the FBI and lied about it, and then when the FBI charged Flynn and showed they had documented evidence of her lies she scurried back there and claimed that she'd forgotten all about it, so wasn't really lying at all, despite her testimony to Congress that her memory was totally clear on the matter.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:02 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I'm happy to hear why it doesn't and why it's not.

In the future, we can cut to the chase if you could explain why the statements you make are true or reasonable, etc., in the same post as you make those statements.
Well, you were the one who has made the declarations in the first place, but the real problem is that you don’t seem to understand that the issue typically arises when the fbi already knows the answers through documents or other tangible sources generated by the target, not other people as you suggested.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:03 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Didnt Trump sign sanctions against Russia, to which Russia retaliated? I think it even included limitations on Trump’s authority on this matter.
Only after the Media made a huge deal out of the fact that he was refusing to sign the bill by its due date and finally Congress pressed the matter with him. He tried to get away with not doing it, but he got backed into a corner where he had no choice.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:04 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog
Your assertions about macFarland are wildly exaggerated.
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
What is exaggerated? She went to Congress and lied about Flynn's involvement with Russia. She went to the FBI and lied about it, and then when the FBI charged Flynn and showed they had documented evidence of her lies she scurried back there and claimed that she'd forgotten all about it, so wasn't really lying at all, despite her testimony to Congress that her memory was totally clear on the matter.
I think someone is in denial.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:04 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I never bought the pee per tape rumors....(But you never know) But the idea that all of this a coincidence is really very hard to believe. (That is if you're not one of those morons who believe Trump on ANYTHING.)

Flynn is working for the Russians...(actually being paid by the Russians) He tells the Russians do not react to the new sanctions because Trump will lift them if he's elected. Flynn comes back from Russia and almost immediately Trump speaking directly to a Russian agent (Buttina) who is now being held in a US prison starts talking sanctions all the while Cohen is talking to Putin's banker. This is like a really bad version of a John Le Carre or Robert Ludlum novel

How a patriotic American can continue to support Trump given what we know today is beyond me.
Trump didn’t lift the sanctions, he actually increased them.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:05 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Only after the Media made a huge deal out of the fact that he was refusing to sign the bill by its due date and finally Congress pressed the matter with him. He tried to get away with not doing it, but he got backed into a corner where he had no choice.
And then seem to hesitate actually enforcing the sanctions.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:06 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Which is true, as long as what you are saying in on point and truthful.
Lol wut
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:08 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Trump didn’t lift the sanctions, he actually increased them.
That was Congress and Trump didn't sign it until they put a gun to Trump's head. And even then the Trump administration did everything they could not to enforce the sanctions.
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Last edited by acbytesla; 1st December 2018 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 1st December 2018, 06:09 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Lol wut
If you answer the questions asked in a way that is truthful and non-evasion then there is no reason that you would be charged with perjury. It's that simple. And before you wave Popehat and Barry Bonds again, Bonds did not do this, he answered a straight yes of no question with a load of waffle that had zero to do with the question.
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