ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

Reply
Old 1st December 2018, 06:18 PM   #81
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,674
Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
It was during the campaign that it was already abundantly clear that Putin had something on Trump. Pee-pee tape rumors notwithstanding, Trump was obviously beholden to Russians for some kind of investment/loan dealings. Maddow et al. are merely adding more dots to a line that was already easy to draw.
Big-ups to Maddow. She was onto the Russian thing a long, long time ago, one of the first reporters to do so.
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:21 PM   #82
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,823
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If you answer the questions asked in a way that is truthful and non-evasion then there is no reason that you would be charged with perjury. It's that simple. And before you wave Popehat and Barry Bonds again, Bonds did not do this, he answered a straight yes of no question with a load of waffle that had zero to do with the question.
Say that the honest answer is that one does not remember. Can you get charged with saying you don’t remember something that the FBI has evidence actually happened?
__________________
Very legal and very cool!
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:23 PM   #83
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,674
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Trump didn’t lift the sanctions, he actually increased them.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That was Congress and Trump didn't sign it until they put a gun to Trump's head. And even then the Trump administration did everything they could not to enforce the sanctions.
You can always trust a Trump sycophant to give Dear Leader credit where credit its NOT due.
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920

Last edited by smartcooky; 1st December 2018 at 06:34 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:27 PM   #84
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,674
None of you loyal and devout followers of Der Trumpenführer want to take me up on my challenge in post #47 ?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1&postcount=47

Wazzamadder folks... ya chicken?
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:31 PM   #85
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,396
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You can always trust a Trump sycophant to give Dear Leader credit where credit is NOT due.
Yep.

It like the VA Act of Obama's that Trump keeps pretending was his.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:36 PM   #86
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,396
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Big-ups to Maddow. She was onto the Russian thing a long, long time ago, one of the first reporters to do so.
Maddow's show is very often the best news show on TV. She's beyond tthorough. But I also can't stand her when she seems to avoid the point, teasing her audience for 30 minutes.
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:40 PM   #87
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,750
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say that the honest answer is that one does not remember. Can you get charged with saying you don’t remember something that the FBI has evidence actually happened?
It depends on what it is, if the truth is that you honestly can't remember, then the odds are low of you being charged, yes. Mostly because you would be consistent in your statements that to the best of your recollection you don't recall doing something. However if it's something you are really unlikely to have forgotten, or if you give testimony that your memory is quite clear on the subject, and you didn't do it, then you're probably not being truthful to later say you don't remember.

When it comes to lying to the FBI they don't just ask a single question, they'll ask you a number of different ways and then compare the answers. If you are being truthful about not remembering, then it'll generally be pretty obvious to them.

I'm also going to point out that having done a course on the Brain and Behaviour in University, a large part of which was looking into how memory functions, while I can understand someone forgetting about something that was an every day occurrence, and having trouble recalling it, things that were unusual or one offs, while initially maybe hard to recall, usually when reminded, that reminder will trigger the memory of the event, especially when it happened just within the last few years. It is extremely rare to have zero memory of an event that happened recently, unless you are suffering some form of neurological deterioration.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by PhantomWolf; 1st December 2018 at 06:44 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:41 PM   #88
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,536
Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Trump didn’t lift the sanctions, he actually increased them.
As was noted, his hand was forced. Regarding what he actually tried to do, he tried to remove the Magnitsky Act sanctions and repeatedly refused to actually make or enforce sanctions until after the media made a big deal of it... about a year later (plenty of time for the subjects to shuffle around assets to minimize the effects). Since then, of course, to show how serious he is about sanctions and the Russia interference, there was things like the time where he signed an executive order allowing sanctions to be laid on Russia for reasons which had already led to sanctions being laid on Russia.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 1st December 2018 at 06:42 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:43 PM   #89
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,369
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
None of you loyal and devout followers of Der Trumpenführer want to take me up on my challenge in post #47 ?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1&postcount=47

Wazzamadder folks... ya chicken?
I'm game. Helps pass the time until impeachment.

"Where were you on the night of all this crimeing you did?"
Beelzebuddy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 06:50 PM   #90
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 19,761
"Deep State"

__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 07:00 PM   #91
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 11,958
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
In the future, we can cut to the chase if you could explain why the statements you make are true or reasonable, etc., in the same post as you make those statements.
This post, and another of yours upthread, are wonderful gems of zen-like succinctness, expressed with the patience of a Zen master, and I plan to borrow liberally!
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 07:05 PM   #92
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 22,290
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You are going to get arrested for violating international law? Huh.
More lack of comprehension on your behalf. Oh well. Why should you be concerned with reality when you can make yourself believe whatever you'd like to be true?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 07:07 PM   #93
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 11,958
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Big-ups to Maddow. She was onto the Russian thing a long, long time ago, one of the first reporters to do so.
Ahem, before me?
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 07:15 PM   #94
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,823
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
More lack of comprehension on your behalf. Oh well. Why should you be concerned with reality when you can make yourself believe whatever you'd like to be true?
Oh dear.
__________________
Very legal and very cool!
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 07:21 PM   #95
Paul2
Illuminator
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,710
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, you were the one who has made the declarations in the first place. . . .
Doesn’t matter who starts something; if you reply it will save time to provide reasons why what you say is valid. You can pretty much count on me asking you for support for your claims, as I would welcome requests for supports for my claims.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
but the real problem is that you don’t seem to understand that the issue typically arises when the fbi already knows the answers through documents or other tangible sources generated by the target, not other people as you suggested.
Agreed, although, not being a prosecutor, perhaps prosecutors would defend this practice in some way, so my agreement is tentative pending a potential contrary view.

And, you ignored my earlier point that we don’t know whether Mueller has actually done this to Trump. Or do you know?
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 07:27 PM   #96
Paul2
Illuminator
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,710
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Maddow's show is very often the best news show on TV. She's beyond tthorough. But I also can't stand her when she seems to avoid the point, teasing her audience for 30 minutes.
Rachel is not perfect, but she is the best thing on. I particularly like the historian in her, when she brings up past events that parallel today’s news. See her “Bag Man” podcast about the special person that was Spiro Agnew. ( His parents should have named him “Carl,” even though who would name a baby “Carl?”)

She is the pre-eminent popular historian on TV.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 07:28 PM   #97
Paul2
Illuminator
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,710
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
This post, and another of yours upthread, are wonderful gems of zen-like succinctness, expressed with the patience of a Zen master, and I plan to borrow liberally!
I try in my own, small way.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 08:12 PM   #98
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,823
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Doesn’t matter who starts something; if you reply it will save time to provide reasons why what you say is valid. You can pretty much count on me asking you for support for your claims, as I would welcome requests for supports for my claims.



Agreed, although, not being a prosecutor, perhaps prosecutors would defend this practice in some way, so my agreement is tentative pending a potential contrary view.

And, you ignored my earlier point that we don’t know whether Mueller has actually done this to Trump. Or do you know?
Yeah, bruh, it does matter. Your claim, your burden. It is really odd that you make all these bare assertions but feel you don’t have to support them, but bust my chops for not spoon feeding you.
__________________
Very legal and very cool!
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 08:25 PM   #99
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,419
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well, you were the one who has made the declarations in the first place, but the real problem is that you don’t seem to understand


Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
...that the issue typically arises when the fbi already knows the answers through documents or other tangible sources generated by the target, not other people as you suggested.
So the FBI knows the answer and they ask Trump to verify it. That's a problem, why?

Or it was incriminating and they wanted to give Trump an opportunity to give his side of the story. That's a problem, why?
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 08:27 PM   #100
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,419
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
As was noted, his hand was forced. Regarding what he actually tried to do, he tried to remove the Magnitsky Act sanctions and repeatedly refused to actually make or enforce sanctions until after the media made a big deal of it... about a year later (plenty of time for the subjects to shuffle around assets to minimize the effects). Since then, of course, to show how serious he is about sanctions and the Russia interference, there was things like the time where he signed an executive order allowing sanctions to be laid on Russia for reasons which had already led to sanctions being laid on Russia.
Just think how many shiny squirrels ago that was.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 08:40 PM   #101
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,823
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


So the FBI knows the answer and they ask Trump to verify it. That's a problem, why?

Or it was incriminating and they wanted to give Trump an opportunity to give his side of the story. That's a problem, why?
If they wanted to “verify” an answer they would give the person they are questioning the documents to refresh their memory and clarify their testimony.

Guess why they do not do that?

Because a cheap conviction under 18 usc 1001 is better than nothing.
__________________
Very legal and very cool!
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 08:47 PM   #102
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 70,419
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If they wanted to “verify” an answer they would give the person they are questioning the documents to refresh their memory and clarify their testimony.

Guess why they do not do that?

Because a cheap conviction under 18 usc 1001 is better than nothing.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 08:51 PM   #103
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,823
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Just put up a white flag next time, save us all a click.
__________________
Very legal and very cool!
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 09:08 PM   #104
Paul2
Illuminator
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,710
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, bruh, it does matter. Your claim, your burden. It is really odd that you make all these bare assertions but feel you don’t have to support them, but bust my chops for not spoon feeding you.
Which claim? If you are specific, I’ll reply.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 09:13 PM   #105
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,674
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Ahem, before me?
Read my post, particularly the words just prior to "first"
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 09:13 PM   #106
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,069
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If they wanted to “verify” an answer they would give the person they are questioning the documents to refresh their memory and clarify their testimony.

Guess why they do not do that?

Because a cheap conviction under 18 usc 1001 is better than nothing.
Isn't that called "Discovery" in US law?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law)

Are you saying that the FBI is ignoring standard legal procedure in order to trick Trump into committing perjury?

If so, wouldn't that be self defeating as the results of any such investigation could be dismissed for violating due process?

What am I missing here?
Brainache is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 09:23 PM   #107
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 27,823
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Isn't that called "Discovery" in US law?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law)

Are you saying that the FBI is ignoring standard legal procedure in order to trick Trump into committing perjury?

If so, wouldn't that be self defeating as the results of any such investigation could be dismissed for violating due process?

What am I missing here?
Nah, disclosure obligations are not triggered until after arrest or indictment, and certainly not to a precustodial interview
__________________
Very legal and very cool!
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 09:29 PM   #108
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,674
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


So the FBI knows the answer and they ask Trump to verify it. That's a problem, why?

Or it was incriminating and they wanted to give Trump an opportunity to give his side of the story. That's a problem, why?
Here's the thing.

You only commit perjury under 18 USC § 1001 by lying about something that is material to the investigation. If they ask what you ate for dinner, and it was chicken but you say it was steak, that is not material to the case. Even if you KNEW it was chicken, and you knowingly lie and say it was steak, that is not perjury. 18 USC § 1001 is very clear and unambiguous on this

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
"(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation;


TBD's example of getting a date wrong is also not material, unless the date you give is a wilful attempt to alibi yourself for the date at which the crime under investigation has been committed
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 10:27 PM   #109
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 19,396
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Here's the thing.

You only commit perjury under 18 USC § 1001 by lying about something that is material to the investigation. If they ask what you ate for dinner, and it was chicken but you say it was steak, that is not material to the case. Even if you KNEW it was chicken, and you knowingly lie and say it was steak, that is not perjury. 18 USC § 1001 is very clear and unambiguous on this

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
"(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation;


TBD's example of getting a date wrong is also not material, unless the date you give is a wilful attempt to alibi yourself for the date at which the crime under investigation has been committed
Exactly. Cohen saying it was January and then it turns out to be June is huge. Especially when you consider all that happened during that time. What is notable, the number of other people who also said this project was terminated before the primaries. What that shows is a deliberate attempt to deceive by a group of people. That's perjury, conspiracy and obstruction
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ”
― David Hume
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 11:28 PM   #110
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 9,674
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
...But I also can't stand her when she seems to avoid the point, teasing her audience for 30 minutes.
I actually like that approach... what she effectively does draws the dots, all seemingly unrelated, and then systematically shows you how they all connect together. Its like telling a long and involved joke and delivering the punchline at the end.
__________________
As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2018, 11:29 PM   #111
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 26,069
I am fascinated by the concept that the only way to get President Donald J. Trump to tell a lie is to set a trap.

We are talking about the guy who promised a middle-class tax cut before the midterms even though Congress was not in session. That guy.

The guy who said he didn’t know about the payments to Stormy Daniels days before a recording surfaced showing that he set the terms of the payments.

The guy who said he didn’t write the answers to the questions submitted to Don Jr. weeks before he admitted to writing the answers to the questions.

[insert 100 more examples here]

That’s the guy who needs to be tricked into telling a lie about his activies.

.........
Try pulling the other leg, it has bells on it.
.
.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 01:30 AM   #112
Stacyhs
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5,862
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I am fascinated by the concept that the only way to get President Donald J. Trump to tell a lie is to set a trap.

We are talking about the guy who promised a middle-class tax cut before the midterms even though Congress was not in session. That guy.

The guy who said he didn’t know about the payments to Stormy Daniels days before a recording surfaced showing that he set the terms of the payments.

The guy who said he didn’t write the answers to the questions submitted to Don Jr. weeks before he admitted to writing the answers to the questions.

[insert 100 more examples here]

That’s the guy who needs to be tricked into telling a lie about his activies.

.........
Try pulling the other leg, it has bells on it.
.
.
It's almost as if Trumpsters are living in a completely different reality from the rest of the world, innit? You know, with 'alternate facts' and whatnot.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 03:59 AM   #113
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 16,266
Okay, so what exactly is the minimum standard of honesty for, and forgive me for shouting, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

Shouldn't we be holding our politicians to a higher standard than 'beyond reasonable doubt'

It might be better to let 99 guilty men go free than to lock one innocent man up, but should that apply to those who aspire to and acheive the highest office in the land?

I really doin't expect every politician to be José Mujica, but why do they all seem to be bloody Pinocchio?


(To be fair and balanced, our leadership are also a bunch of utter muppets right now too.)
__________________
Up the River!
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 04:23 AM   #114
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,750
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I am fascinated by the concept that the only way to get President Donald J. Trump to tell a lie is to set a trap.

We are talking about the guy who promised a middle-class tax cut before the midterms even though Congress was not in session. That guy.

The guy who said he didn’t know about the payments to Stormy Daniels days before a recording surfaced showing that he set the terms of the payments.

The guy who said he didn’t write the answers to the questions submitted to Don Jr. weeks before he admitted to writing the answers to the questions.

[insert 100 more examples here]

That’s the guy who needs to be tricked into telling a lie about his activies.

.........
Try pulling the other leg, it has bells on it.
.
.
You forgot... The guy who his lawyers did a mock interview with and then refused to let him have a sit down interview with Muller because they knew he couldn't help himself but start lying.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 04:26 AM   #115
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,750
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, so what exactly is the minimum standard of honesty for, and forgive me for shouting, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

Shouldn't we be holding our politicians to a higher standard than 'beyond reasonable doubt'

It might be better to let 99 guilty men go free than to lock one innocent man up, but should that apply to those who aspire to and acheive the highest office in the land?

I really doin't expect every politician to be José Mujica, but why do they all seem to be bloody Pinocchio?


(To be fair and balanced, our leadership are also a bunch of utter muppets right now too.)
I kinda found it funny that one of the reasons that Trumpsters often give about hating Hillary is that she lies all the time, but when all the candidates in 2016 were fact checked on their speeches, Hillary come out as the most Honest, just a hair ahead of Bernie, and Trump came in dead last with more pants on fire lies than Hillary told in total.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 04:37 AM   #116
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,750
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If they wanted to “verify” an answer they would give the person they are questioning the documents to refresh their memory and clarify their testimony.

Guess why they do not do that?

Because a cheap conviction under 18 usc 1001 is better than nothing.
You realise that if the FBI already have the criminal activity documented, then all they are doing in the questioning is giving the person the chance to come clean. If they want to get them, they already have them, remember that Manafort found that out the hard way.

The reason so many have been charged with just "Lying to the FBI" is not because it's an easy charge for the FBI to get, but because that is a slap on the wrist that they are being granted for their cooperation, rather than having the entire tonnage of their crimes brought before the Court and being sentenced to 999 years for everything, something else Manafort is about to learn about first hand.

This is the essence of the plea deals. Because Flynn, Cohen, and so on have been willing to help the FBI by spilling their guts to the commission, in return they get a slap on the wrist, a perjury charge, rather then getting a Conspiracy to Defraud the USA and a multitude of other charges.

If Muller has the goods on Trump, then he doesn't have any need to trap him because the evidence will speak for itself already, In asking questions he's giving Trump the opportunity to tell his side and come clean about the matters. If he doesn't, and Muller has the goods, then it's not going to be a case of perjury landing on Trump, it's going to be all the evidence of every crime he's committed and every conspiracy he's been a part of.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 06:31 AM   #117
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,610
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
If you answer the questions asked in a way that is truthful and non-evasion then there is no reason that you would be charged with perjury. It's that simple. And before you wave Popehat and Barry Bonds again, Bonds did not do this, he answered a straight yes of no question with a load of waffle that had zero to do with the question.

I don’t quite see how the Bonds case is an example of a successful “perjury trap”, since as far as I can see the perjury charges were dropped after a mistrial, and the conviction for obstruction of justice was overturned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...ldid=860420176

Am I missing something here? I couldn’t read the article about it linked by Popehat because it isn’t available here, but that seemed to be headlined “Barry Bonds’ obstruction of justice conviction overturned”. Is there something there that isn’t reflected in the headline?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 06:50 AM   #118
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 6,369
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The reason so many have been charged with just "Lying to the FBI" is not because it's an easy charge for the FBI to get, but because that is a slap on the wrist that they are being granted for their cooperation,
It also doesn't reveal much about the investigation to higher-value targets.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I am fascinated by the concept that the only way to get President Donald J. Trump to tell a lie is to set a trap.
To be fair, Trump has a good track record of technically not lying under oath. His fantastic brain and world class memory just fail him and leave him unable to recall anything but the oddest details, like how to contribute to the District Attorney's reelection campaign.

For all his bluster over being willing to talk to Mueller, everyone but the talking heads said there wasn't a chance in hell of him ever being in the same room willingly.

If Mueller was sneaky enough to convince Manafort his lies were working and that Trump should parrot them, that would help explain why a) Manafort's and Trump's teams' continued contact was allowed, and b) why Mueller accepted a lawyer-drafted response to written questions.
Beelzebuddy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 06:55 AM   #119
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 29,516
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I am fascinated by the concept that the only way to get President Donald J. Trump to tell a lie is to set a trap.
.
It's because they know he in not capable of telling the truth. It's unfair to ask him to do so.
__________________
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2018, 06:58 AM   #120
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 14,935
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's because they know he in not capable of telling the truth. It's unfair to ask him to do so.
That actually sounds extremely unfair when you put it that way. It is targeting a disability.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.