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Old 2nd December 2018, 05:11 AM   #1
RolandRat
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Homosexuality is unacceptable

Says the Pope. It is "worrying" and "there is no place for this kind of affection".

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...cid=spartandhp


Why does religion get a free pass on bigotry?
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Old 2nd December 2018, 05:35 AM   #2
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Good question. It's time this was classified as hate speech and banned.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 05:38 AM   #3
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The RCC is one of the largest hate groups in the world.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 06:06 AM   #4
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In other news, water is wet.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 06:23 AM   #5
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Homosexuality is unacceptable

Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Says the Pope.

What he's actually saying seems to be that homosexuality is unacceptable in Catholic priests, monks and nuns: “The ministry or the consecrated life is not his place.” (The Guardian, Dec. 2, 2018)
He doesn't seem to be talking about ordinary Catholics or anybody else:

Quote:
In 2013, just months after assuming the papacy, Francis said: “If someone is gay and is searching for the Lord and has good will, then who am I to judge him?”, signifying a softer tone on homosexuality.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 06:37 AM   #6
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The Papacy and Curia certainly are a hate group. I wouldn't say that of the whole RCC. There is widespread disregard for the moral teachings of the church among members. Most Catholics in the United States don't seem to take seriously church teaching on sexuality. On the issues of homosexuality, birth control and masturbation, Catholic opinions and worse for the RCC, behaviors are at odds with church teachings by wide margins.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...atholic-women/

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-la...homosexuality/


https://www.catholicgentleman.net/20...fess-this-sin/
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:06 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What he's actually saying seems to be that homosexuality is unacceptable in Catholic priests, monks and nuns: “The ministry or the consecrated life is not his place.” (The Guardian, Dec. 2, 2018)
He doesn't seem to be talking about ordinary Catholics or anybody else:


The Pope if following church teachings would say the same thing about serial killers, rapists of babies and so on. Forgiveness of sins is a core RCC teaching.

That does not alter the fact that he thinks kids that are gay can be "helped" by a psychiatrist to stop them from being gay and his other anti-homosexuality stances.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:09 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The Papacy and Curia certainly are a hate group. I wouldn't say that of the whole RCC. There is widespread disregard for the moral teachings of the church among members. Most Catholics in the United States don't seem to take seriously church teaching on sexuality. On the issues of homosexuality, birth control and masturbation, Catholic opinions and worse for the RCC, behaviors are at odds with church teachings by wide margins.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...atholic-women/

http://www.pewforum.org/religious-la...homosexuality/


https://www.catholicgentleman.net/20...fess-this-sin/
I suspect what happened in Ireland is a living nightmare for the senior church clergy, a country in which the RCC held sway over the state of Ireland and people for hundreds of years and it all went up in smoke within a single generation.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:26 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I suspect what happened in Ireland is a living nightmare for the senior church clergy, a country in which the RCC held sway over the state of Ireland and people for hundreds of years and it all went up in smoke within a single generation.
One wonders why the church makes these pronouncements at all. Not even the Papacy could be so out of touch as to not know that their moral decrees ring hollow after decades of allowing the abuse of children to go on. You can't spend all that time countenancing the sexual assaults of children and then suddenly think you now have a moral authority.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:46 AM   #10
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One of the more nonsensical pronouncements. If the RCC is okay with being gay, as long as you don't act on it, and priests are bound by vows of celibacy, what the hell is the difference what their natural orientation is? Do they condemn clergy who have a taste for S&M who don't act on that either? Do they even ask about that at priest interviews?

More to the point, why the concern with gays at all? Are they harassing heteros or something? Leave them alone. Live and let live and all that.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 12:25 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What he's actually saying seems to be that homosexuality is unacceptable in Catholic priests, monks and nuns: “The ministry or the consecrated life is not his place.” (The Guardian, Dec. 2, 2018)
He doesn't seem to be talking about ordinary Catholics or anybody else:
He might have said that in 2013 but in 2018 he says:

“We must be demanding. In our societies it even seems that homosexuality is fashionable and this mentality, in some way, also affects the life of the Church,” Pope Francis said."

"The pontiff, who recently suggested that LGBT+ children should be taken to see a psychiatrist"

It's disgusting that religion is allowed to continue to practise bigotry of this fashion.

edit - if a company spewed this garbage out they'd find themselves in court. The Catholic church is an employer, why can't they be held to the same standards as other employers?

Last edited by RolandRat; 2nd December 2018 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 12:47 PM   #12
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“We must be demanding. In our societies it even seems that homosexuality is fashionable and this mentality, in some way, also affects the life of the Church,” Pope Francis said.
What clearer illustration could you ask for to illustrate how out of touch the pontiff, and the RCC, are on this. Does he really think heterosexual guys and girls are just going to try homosexuality on because its fashionable?

I guess a cloistered life among all those other guys in frocks, is not the best environment to develop a sound and realistic worldly view.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 01:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
One wonders why the church makes these pronouncements at all. Not even the Papacy could be so out of touch as to not know that their moral decrees ring hollow after decades of allowing the abuse of children to go on. You can't spend all that time countenancing the sexual assaults of children and then suddenly think you now have a moral authority.
Because the RCC might be losing ground in Europe and the US, but its still going strong in South America, the Philippines and Africa, where sentiments like this still, unfortunately, echo strongly with the congregation.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 02:39 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Because the RCC might be losing ground in Europe and the US, but its still going strong in South America, the Philippines and Africa, where sentiments like this still, unfortunately, echo strongly with the congregation.
This - find your market and keep it.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:08 PM   #15
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Is the Pope Catholic? Breaking news at 11.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 03:11 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Is the Pope Catholic? Breaking news at 11.
It's not headline news, though. That's "Bear ***** in Woods."
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Old 2nd December 2018, 06:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Says the Pope. It is "worrying" and "there is no place for this kind of affection".

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...cid=spartandhp


Why does religion get a free pass on bigotry?
Indeed I was accused of bigotry recently for suggesting that these kind of statements might be motivated by prejudice.

A philosophy professor recently banned me from his blog because I asked if it was reasonable to discuss the proposition that a Christian philosopher who advocated a 'cure' for homosexuality might be just a little prejudiced.
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Last edited by Robin; 2nd December 2018 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
One wonders why the church makes these pronouncements at all. Not even the Papacy could be so out of touch as to not know that their moral decrees ring hollow after decades of allowing the abuse of children to go on. You can't spend all that time countenancing the sexual assaults of children and then suddenly think you now have a moral authority.
I think the general idea is to throw a bit of dust around to cover the fact that the Church enthusiastically protected child abusers and intimidated their victims.

I have seen the suggestion made a number times that the root of the problem of child abuse in the Church is homosexuality itself.

I expect to see this card forced quite a bit in the near future.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I think the general idea is to throw a bit of dust around to cover the fact that the Church enthusiastically protected child abusers and intimidated their victims.

I have seen the suggestion made a number times that the root of the problem of child abuse in the Church is homosexuality itself.

I expect to see this card forced quite a bit in the near future.

Are you suggesting that homosexuality leads to child abuse? I thought that notion had been dismissed a long time ago.

Now the suppression of healthy sexual appetite, (whether heterosexual or homosexual), is another story.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:58 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Are you suggesting that homosexuality leads to child abuse? I thought that notion had been dismissed a long time ago.

.
I think Robin is suggesting that there are those who want you to believe that homosexuality leads to child abuse. Just blame the gays, as it were.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:58 PM   #21
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Jorge Bergoglio is a cunning man who speaks out of both sides of his mouth depending on his audience and the topic's expediency. I don't for one second believe that this is what he actually thinks given the number of obviously gay clergymen he keeps in his inner circle, or the controversy swirling around him concerning the gay-rape/molestation of Archbishop McCarrick of Washington DC and Bergoglio alleged to have known about it all. Let's not forget his infamous "who am I to judge?" comment a few years back when asked about gay clergy too. He's made a number of enemies in the church for his heterodoxy and I think he's just trying to placate his critics until such a time comes that he has the ecclesiastical/political capital to make all the changes to the Church that he'd like to without grief from the more traditional wing of the Church.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:43 PM   #22
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There sure are a lot of gay priests in the Catholic hierarchy for the Pope to be proclaiming this condemnation.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 08:51 PM   #23
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What do you expect him to say? He’s the CATHOLIC Pope. This is in line with the teachings of the church. From his POV, flawed as it may be, gay clergy are the cause of all the abuse. So if you are gay, get out of the clergy is what he seems to be saying.


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Old 2nd December 2018, 11:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What do you expect him to say? He’s the CATHOLIC Pope. This is in line with the teachings of the church. From his POV, flawed as it may be, gay clergy are the cause of all the abuse. So if you are gay, get out of the clergy is what he seems to be saying.


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Surely he knows Ratzinger and god knows how many more people in the Vatican are gay, from Bishops to upper lever staff. Ratzinger retired with his gay lover moving in with him. Look it up.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 11:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There sure are a lot of gay priests in the Catholic hierarchy for the Pope to be proclaiming this condemnation.
Quote:
Surely he knows Ratzinger and god knows how many more people in the Vatican are gay, from Bishops to upper lever staff. Ratzinger retired with his gay lover moving in with him. Look it up.
I think you might be looking at it exactly backwards - the biggest anti-gay bigots usually are gay themselves, just deep in the closet and completely self-loathing.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 12:04 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There sure are a lot of gay priests in the Catholic hierarchy for the Pope to be proclaiming this condemnation.

Just to digress a little and look at other flavours of Christendom Jimmy Swaggart comes to mind.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 12:29 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Are you suggesting that homosexuality leads to child abuse?
I think you need to reread what I said. I said that I had read people suggesting this in a number of places.

I said that people were saying this to draw attention away from the Church's responsibility for the abuse.

It is not me suggesting it.
Quote:
I thought that notion had been dismissed a long time ago.
Unfortunately there seem to be many trying to revive the idea.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 10:43 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
One of the more nonsensical pronouncements. If the RCC is okay with being gay, as long as you don't act on it, and priests are bound by vows of celibacy, what the hell is the difference what their natural orientation is? Do they condemn clergy who have a taste for S&M who don't act on that either? Do they even ask about that at priest interviews?

More to the point, why the concern with gays at all? Are they harassing heteros or something? Leave them alone. Live and let live and all that.
Oh they ask. In interviews, after interviews, at dinner, over drinks, after morning prayer, before lunch, . . . . I think you get the picture. What else do you think they talk about?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:24 AM   #29
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Are you all new to religion? The fundament of established religions is 'do as I say, not as I do'. Of course the pope preaches celibate heterosexuality. He's also sworn a vow of poverty but lives in palaces stuffed with treasures. Making noise is just part of the job, don't waste your time crediting him with actual sincere belief on this.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 11:32 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Oh they ask. In interviews, after interviews, at dinner, over drinks, after morning prayer, before lunch, . . . . I think you get the picture. What else do you think they talk about?
I guess that's why they call the crucifixion 'The Passion'?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 01:22 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I think you need to reread what I said. I said that I had read people suggesting this in a number of places.

I said that people were saying this to draw attention away from the Church's responsibility for the abuse.

It is not me suggesting it.

Unfortunately there seem to be many trying to revive the idea.

Then I misunderstood you.
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Old 3rd December 2018, 03:01 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you all new to religion? The fundament of established religions is 'do as I say, not as I do'. Of course the pope preaches celibate heterosexuality. He's also sworn a vow of poverty but lives in palaces stuffed with treasures. Making noise is just part of the job, don't waste your time crediting him with actual sincere belief on this.
My point isn't so much on the hypocrisy of religion, more why they are not held accountable for it. We have laws against bigotry in the work place. Why are organisations like the Catholic Church seemingly exempt from them? What would happen if someone took them took court for their stance?
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Old 3rd December 2018, 03:09 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
My point isn't so much on the hypocrisy of religion, more why they are not held accountable for it. We have laws against bigotry in the work place. Why are organisations like the Catholic Church seemingly exempt from them? What would happen if someone took them took court for their stance?
They're exempt because religion is special, and magic, and God, and blessings yada yada yada. Some jurisdictions might hold them to account for violating the laws everyone else has to follow, but not where I am. Special rules for special people, religious exemptions.

Of course where I am there's no legal protection from being fired for being gay by a nonreligious employer either, so it's moot.
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Old 5th December 2018, 05:37 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Because the RCC might be losing ground in Europe and the US, but its still going strong in South America, the Philippines and Africa, where sentiments like this still, unfortunately, echo strongly with the congregation.
I can't speak to the Philippines or Latin America. However, in Africa people widely ignore the Pope on other topics. Catholics and Anglicans practice various kinds of magic and voodoo belief systems as well. There's a lot of "you have to cover all the bases" thinking that directly contravenes church dogma.
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Old 5th December 2018, 08:01 PM   #35
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10/10

Would rage click on the topic again.
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Old 5th December 2018, 11:11 PM   #36
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The Pope should read up on the story of David and Jonathan.
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Old 5th December 2018, 11:32 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think you might be looking at it exactly backwards - the biggest anti-gay bigots usually are gay themselves, just deep in the closet and completely self-loathing.
I was not dismissing all those anti-gay gay guys.
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Old 5th December 2018, 11:34 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just to digress a little and look at other flavours of Christendom Jimmy Swaggart comes to mind.
Drop in the bucket there as well.
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Old 6th December 2018, 04:49 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I think you might be looking at it exactly backwards - the biggest anti-gay bigots usually are gay themselves, just deep in the closet and completely self-loathing.
As this is pretty much a done deal topic, Pope is still a Roman Catholic sums it up, going to risk going off topic a tad and ask is there evidence that indicates what you say is true? Often heard it but can't recall seeing it supported.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:01 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As this is pretty much a done deal topic, Pope is still a Roman Catholic sums it up, going to risk going off topic a tad and ask is there evidence that indicates what you say is true? Often heard it but can't recall seeing it supported.
There's this study:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl...t-accepting-it

Quote:

A series of studies recently published in the prestigious Journal of Personality and Social Psychology found higher levels of homophobia in individuals with unacknowledged attractions to the same sex, particularly when they grew up with authoritarian parents who also held homophobic attitudes. In the university press release, Netta Weinstein, the study's lead author said, "Individuals who identify as straight but in psychological tests show a strong attraction to the same sex may be threatened by gays and lesbians because homosexuals remind them of similar tendencies within themselves." In the same release, study co-author Richard Ryan added, "In many cases these are people who are at war with themselves and they are turning this internal conflict outward."
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