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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Wisconsin politics

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Old 5th December 2018, 08:33 AM   #1
JoeMorgue
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Republican-led Wisconsin legislature votes to curb power of newly elected Democrats.

Republican-led Wisconsin legislature approves bills to diminish executive power after Democratic election wins

Quote:
(CNN) Wisconsin Republicans moved overnight to strip power from newly elected Democratic leaders, advancing legislation that would limit early voting, enact Medicaid work requirements and potentially block the incoming attorney general from withdrawing the state from a lawsuit over Obamacare.

The measures are all expected to be signed by lame-duck Republican Gov. Scott Walker, effectively preventing his successor, Gov.-elect Tony Evers, and Attorney General-elect Josh Kaul from delivering on the promises that lifted them to victory in November.

Nearly a day after the legislature's "extraordinary session" began, the state Senate and Assembly concluded their work, passing a raft of legislation designed to curtail authorities enjoyed by Walker and outgoing Republican Attorney General Brad Schimel. Democrats are expected to challenge a number of the measures in court.
CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/polit...wer/index.html
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Old 5th December 2018, 08:37 AM   #2
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So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
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Old 5th December 2018, 08:43 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
I am Danish and even I know what is the problem. But you figure it out yourself.
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Old 5th December 2018, 08:59 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
In the meantime they're subverting democracy by denying the government officials the people just voted for the powers the people voted for them to have.

Gerrymandering, voting restrictions, reducing voting time frames, reducing voting locations, reducing the number and times of locations where people can get what they need to vote, purging voter rolls, and now election fraud and stealing power from those just elected.

Why do Republicans hate democracy? It's almost as if they lose fair elections.
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
That "argument" can be applied to any position.

Republicans passed a bill that requires mandatory execution for any speeding violation? What's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.

LOL!

You're just disingenuously side-stepping the actual issue.
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:28 AM   #6
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Philip Bump Tweeted:

Quote:
In 2016, Republican assembly candidates in Wisconsin got about 161k more votes than the Dems and won 64 of the 99 seats.

In 2018, Democrats got about 205,000 more votes -- and Republicans won 63 of the 99 seats.
Dems never stop complaining.
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:38 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Dems never stop complaining.
Are you complaining about it?
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
In the meantime they're subverting democracy by denying the government officials the people just voted for the powers the people voted for them to have.
My voting factors in a probabilistic model of future authority based on legislative action. I don't agree that not catering the the lowest common denominator subverts democracy. There is something to be said about setting the standard to an informed voter.
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Old 5th December 2018, 09:54 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My voting factors in a probabilistic model of future authority based on legislative action. I don't agree that not catering the the lowest common denominator subverts democracy. There is something to be said about setting the standard to an informed voter.
Neat, word salad. I'm not hungry though.

I'm 0% shocked that Republicans are condoning this though. It just goes to show that they really have no desire to put their country first at all. It's all about them keeping power any way they can, and their lapdogs will continue to lap it up. As long as it "triggerz teh demz"
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Old 5th December 2018, 11:34 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
In the meantime they're subverting democracy by denying the government officials the people just voted for the powers the people voted for them to have.
The people don't vote for bills or for the specific powers in question. They voted for the legislature, including the one which just passed the bills in question.

Quote:
Gerrymandering, voting restrictions, reducing voting time frames, reducing voting locations, reducing the number and times of locations where people can get what they need to vote, purging voter rolls, and now election fraud and stealing power from those just elected.
How can it be stealing that power when the new legislature can just take it all back?
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Old 5th December 2018, 11:35 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
That "argument" can be applied to any position.
It can be applied to any position regarding bills that control government power, yes. If the bill applies to something else, then no, the argument obviously doesn't apply.
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Old 5th December 2018, 11:55 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
In the age of Trump, a time when seemingly intelligent conservatives have become apologists for this sort of transparent anti-democratic shenanigans, nothing apparently.

Oh by the way, you're wrong. Wisconsin will have divided government. It may not be easily reversible.
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:10 PM   #13
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Those that are defending this power grab would be the first screaming to the rafters if the parties' political affiliations were reversed. The GOP has controlled the state government for years, yet they never voted to lessen their own power which is clear evidence of the partisan motive behind this action.
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:16 PM   #14
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What the republicans are doing in Wisconsin is filthy and repulsive.
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:26 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
Continuing in GOP tradition, obstruct the majority any way they can and call it democracy.
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:28 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In the age of Trump, a time when seemingly intelligent conservatives have become apologists for this sort of transparent anti-democratic shenanigans, nothing apparently.

Oh by the way, you're wrong. Wisconsin will have divided government. It may not be easily reversible.
But as it turns out there may be an option: NPR
Quote:
Two years ago in North Carolina, the Republican-majority legislature felt similarly about their new Democratic governor, Roy Cooper, and met in a lame-duck session to restrict his authority. After the outgoing Republican governor signed the law, it was caught up in legal and political battles where it remains today.

Some opponents of the bills in Wisconsin have also promised to take the matters to court.
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:30 PM   #17
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Lol, elections have consequences.
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:33 PM   #18
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It will never be enacted while it is tied up in court battles which get delayed "forever". Meanwhile, life goes on.

Whoops, ninja'd.
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Old 5th December 2018, 12:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
What the republicans are doing in Wisconsin is filthy and repulsive.
Its of course what their voters love. Can't let the wrong people have a say in government, that is for your betters after all.
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It will never be enacted while it is tied up in court battles which get delayed "forever". Meanwhile, life goes on.

Whoops, ninja'd.
Oh its okay then. Using tax payer money and government resources to fight obvious petty obstructionisim. Democracy doesn't matter when it is your side that loses the election, especially when your side has spent so much time and effort rigging the system with gerrymandering.
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In the age of Trump, a time when seemingly intelligent conservatives have become apologists for this sort of transparent anti-democratic shenanigans, nothing apparently.

Oh by the way, you're wrong. Wisconsin will have divided government. It may not be easily reversible.
I'm really having a hard time taking seriously the complaint that the legislature constraining the power of the executive is inherently undemocratic. Most executive branches should be more constrained than they are. I'm sure the Republicans did it for partisan advantage, but so what? The complaints are all motivated by partisan disadvantage as well. Nobody here is arguing why the removed powers properly belong with the executive and not the legislature. That's the tell. So really, spare me the outrage and the sanctimoniousness. If voters care enough, they'll give Democrats full control and this can all be reversed. If they don't, then why should I?
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:11 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Oh its okay then. Using tax payer money and government resources to fight obvious petty obstructionisim. Democracy doesn't matter when it is your side that loses the election, especially when your side has spent so much time and effort rigging the system with gerrymandering.
That's what pisses me off. Millions of taxpayer dollars flushed down a stupid petty partisan drain. I hope the GOP are properly called to answer for this waste.
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:17 PM   #23
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Where's the consequences for these clearly anti-democratic actions? Prison-time? If not, why not?
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Where's the consequences for these clearly anti-democratic actions? Prison-time? If not, why not?
Why would there be prison time for actions that do not violate any criminal code?

And do you even hear yourself? You're advocating prison for your political opponents because you don't like how they voted. That's about as anti-democratic as it gets.
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:34 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would there be prison time for actions that do not violate any criminal code?

And do you even hear yourself? You're advocating prison for your political opponents because you don't like how they voted. That's about as anti-democratic as it gets.
Almost like the President you support. So why don't you take your faux outrage and sanctimoniousness and shuffle on as well? Hold yourself to your own standard? No?
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:44 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Almost like the President you support. So why don't you take your faux outrage and sanctimoniousness and shuffle on as well? Hold yourself to your own standard? No?
I'm not outraged, I'm bemused. I am, however, starting to get bored.
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Old 5th December 2018, 01:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not outraged, I'm bemused. I am, however, starting to get bored.
Well, thanks for dropping in to let us know that the GOP is still putting party over people. We didn't need reminding but I'm glad you took up the torch.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Well, thanks for dropping in to let us know that the GOP is still putting party over people. We didn't need reminding but I'm glad you took up the torch.
Oh please. This isn't about "people". You aren't standing on any actual principles. You're only upset because the Democrats are at a partisan disadvantage.

Again, the tell is that no one is arguing for why the powers in question properly belong to the executive and not the legislature. Everyone is only upset because a Democrat won't get to use those powers. Even when I point out the tell, you still can't help but give the game away.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #29
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I'll take it then that there's no consequences for anti-democratic actions from lawmakers in the US. That's odd. This would not be acceptable in a democracy.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm really having a hard time taking seriously the complaint that the legislature constraining the power of the executive is inherently undemocratic.
Then don't fight that straw man. Start addressing how, with less support from the voters, this minority in power legislature is accumulating power that lets them further make them less answerable to the people. No one is arguing that it is inherently undemocratic, but that it is undemocratic in this case.

Quote:
Most executive branches should be more constrained than they are.
How so? What is good about this power grab?

Quote:
I'm sure the Republicans did it for partisan advantage, but so what? The complaints are all motivated by partisan disadvantage as well.
No, they aren't and they have not be argued as such either. Don't project.

Quote:
Nobody here is arguing why the removed powers properly belong with the executive and not the legislature. That's the tell.
Well that's because the onus is on those making positive claims, such as this legislature not supporting why these powers should be denied the executive branch now. What is telling is that as usual rather than examining the issue brought up, you simply attack those being critical of it.

So why do you think these powers should be removed from the executive to the legislative? I think that they are simply a very brazen power grab running contrary to the will of the electorate based on what they candidates that won ran on. They also make a more muddled and easier to sabotage system, such as letting the legislature hire their own lawyers for judicial challenges.

But then again, that does let them do the GOP thing of working towards bad government to prove government can't work.


Quote:
So really, spare me the outrage and the sanctimoniousness. If voters care enough, they'll give Democrats full control and this can all be reversed. If they don't, then why should I?
They did though. The GOP just kept cheating again. It is telling that you harp on people being sanctimonious when it is almost impossible not to be over blatant undemocratic (and unrepublican!) ideas like the group with less support from the people still get more power.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:20 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh please. This isn't about "people". You aren't standing on any actual principles. You're only upset because the Democrats are at a partisan disadvantage.

Again, the tell is that no one is arguing for why the powers in question properly belong to the executive and not the legislature. Everyone is only upset because a Democrat won't get to use those powers. Even when I point out the tell, you still can't help but give the game away.
Would you like to explain to us why, if this is really all about where these powers "properly belong", the Republicans waited until after the election where they lost control of the two offices affected? This move shifts the power to the legislature that the Republicans will still control. It's a power grab and has nothing to do with powers that "properly belong to the executive and not the legislature". It's all about protecting Republican interests and legislation the Dems have targeted like the FoxConn deal, the lawsuit against Obamacare and restrictions on early voting.

Why don't you also explain to us why these powers don't belong to the executive branch and the state AG?
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:24 PM   #32
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Lame-duck partisan antics have been around as long as this country has existed, but this move is of an unprecedented magnitude. Well, maybe not unprecedented. Things got pretty nasty right before the Civil War. I wouldn't exactly call that a good model of government to follow.

Norms are important for the continued proper functioning of our government. They aren't written into law, but rather rely on good faith of the elected legislature. The peaceful, smooth transition of power between incumbent and newly elected is one such norm. Some amount of gamesmanship has always existed, but the norm was respected.

The gallop of the Republicans to dump these norms for short term partisan gain is extremely dangerous. They are knocking the legs out from under the table, and it will not be so easy to repair as it was to destroy.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:25 PM   #33
Hellbound
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IF someone breaks into my house and starts attacking my family with a knife, one can easily suspect they did so motivated by some sort of murderous rage.

When I shoot them in order to stop them, it's equally likely I'm also feeling a murderous rage for what they're attempting.

That doesn't mean both are equally justified (or unjustified), nor that there are not other, legitimate reasons for my actions.

It also doesn't mean that I'm on equal terms with the attacker and motivated only by rage because I'm not discussing why my family didn't deserve killin'.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:30 PM   #34
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It seems to me that the treasonous GOP has decided to start a chicken race with the rest of the US population. They are moving towards civil war and are counting on sane people moving out of the way to avoid disaster. Don't reward this behavior.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:33 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Would you like to explain to us why, if this is really all about where these powers "properly belong", the Republicans waited until after the election where they lost control of the two offices affected?
I already said I think the Republicans are motivated by partisanship. So what?

If the powers in question don't properly belong with the executive, then taking them away from the executive is a good thing regardless of why or when it was done. If they do properly belong with the executive, then taking them away is a bad thing regardless of why or when it was done.

Quote:
Why don't you also explain to us why these powers don't belong to the executive branch and the state AG?
You misunderstand my claim. I'm not saying they don't belong. I don't really know, since these aren't issues I'm intimately familiar with, and I doubt many people here are. I'm pointing out the failure of everyone here to argue for why they do. It's not like I'd be upset if the legislature hadn't taken away these powers from the executive.

As a general rule, though, the powers that the executive needs to have are granted by the constitution, and the legislature is not able to take away those powers. Usually the legislature can only take away powers that it previously granted, and legislatures tend to grant executives too much of these to begin with.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:38 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well that's because the onus is on those making positive claims, such as this legislature not supporting why these powers should be denied the executive branch now.
So close, and yet so far.

If we were debating the legislature about why they did this, then yes, the onus would be on them to justify their vote. But they aren't here. They aren't part of this discussion. So no onus can be placed on them to explain anything to us.

And a positive claim HAS been made that what the legislature did was not simply motivated by partisan interests (I have no doubt about that), but also somehow objectively wrong. That positive claim should have support. It doesn't, not really.

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What is telling is that as usual rather than examining the issue brought up, you simply attack those being critical of it.
Because, get this, the people being critical of it aren't actually examining the issue.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:43 PM   #37
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm really having a hard time taking seriously the complaint that the legislature constraining the power of the executive is inherently undemocratic.
Whereas I can't take anything you post (here) seriously. I hate the "Sad!" meme, but I do feel a teeny bit Sad! for you.

I wouldn't mind, however, if you retracted your knee jerk assumption that it was easily reversible, just to set the record straight. Otherwise we wind up moving from one asinine Ziggurat comment to the next, in whack-a-mole fashion, your permeability left in question.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:48 PM   #38
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Whereas I can't take anything you post (here) seriously. I hate the "Sad!" meme, but I do feel a teeny bit Sad! for you.

I wouldn't mind, however, if you retracted your knee jerk assumption that it was easily reversible, just to set the record straight.
It's not easily reversible by Democrats. It is easily reversible by the legislature. An important distinction, I admit.
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Old 5th December 2018, 02:54 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It can be applied to any position regarding bills that control government power, yes. If the bill applies to something else, then no, the argument obviously doesn't apply.
You're still missing the conclusion.....and therefore it's clearly invalid nonsense.
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Old 5th December 2018, 03:00 PM   #40
plague311
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh please. This isn't about "people". You aren't standing on any actual principles. You're only upset because the Democrats are at a partisan disadvantage.
No, I'm not. I'm actually upset because I agree with your words, just not how you intend them. The people voted, you're right. They expected the people they put in power to be able to use that power exactly as they were.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, the tell is that no one is arguing for why the powers in question properly belong to the executive and not the legislature.
That doesn't need to be argued. It's a red herring. There was no issue with the powers being the way they were. They had worked for an extended period of time, and the GOP has come out to say they are taking these actions because they have to pass the torch.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Everyone is only upset because a Democrat won't get to use those powers. Even when I point out the tell, you still can't help but give the game away.
"Everyone" is upset because the GOP is picking up it's ball and going home like a bunch of babies. The definition of sore loser. Meanwhile the supporters have to bend over backwards to excuse the behavior. I'd say it's sad if it wasn't so expected.
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