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Tags Illinois incidents , satanism , Satanism incidents

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Old 6th December 2018, 11:41 AM   #41
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Same principle.
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Old 6th December 2018, 11:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
I'd hit that.
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Old 6th December 2018, 11:50 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I'd hit that.
Never **** Satanic. Witches be crazy yo.
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Old 6th December 2018, 11:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not for the 'silent majority', I think. Most Christians are pretty indifferent to actual teachings, IME. I could count on one hand the number I see walking the walk. For many, including myself, a nativity an image of peace, love, and giving. Many progressives also don't condemn anyone to hell.
So, it's wrong for pretend Satanists to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably actually believe in (unless you're saying they think knowledge is a bad thing), but it's OK for pretend Christians to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably don't believe in?

Dave
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:25 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
More than nominally for me. My late grandfather was a protestant pastor. Never preached at anyone who didn't ask him to. Never told anyone they were going to hell. Spent his free time volunteering at the Atlantic City Rescue Mission for decades. I don't have these negative associations with Christians that so many here seem to have. They run from indifferent to kind, IME. Not many of the nasty ones that folks here seem to run across.

Sooooort of. I am acceptng of Nativities in the same way I am accepting of public Menorahs in a predominately Jewish town near me. I just kind of smile when I see them, and think 'they are celebrating a happy time'. The literal meaning is less consequential in my POV.

Mocking =/= positive for me. The Satanists don't need to stay silent, of course. Just maybe lighten up on the barbed jabs once or twice a year? Pick Dionysus for a sculpture, maybe. I'd drink to that.
I think we agree more than disagree, and think our individual life experiences lead us to our different responses to this. I don't think either of us would lecture the Satanists to their face any more that we would the Christians.

Seasons greetings and joy!
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Old 6th December 2018, 12:44 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Never **** Satanic. Witches be crazy yo.
Dark Willow in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" certainly was.
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Old 6th December 2018, 01:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Dark Willow in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" certainly was.
Willow, Dark Willow, Vamp Willow.

Shag, Marry, Avoid?
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:00 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Willow, Dark Willow, Vamp Willow.

Shag, Marry, Avoid?
BORED NOW!
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Old 6th December 2018, 03:34 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
So, (I know) you would allow the Christian based fun, but not the Satanic based fun?
"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners are much more fun."
--Billy Joel
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:51 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
So, it's wrong for pretend Satanists to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably actually believe in (unless you're saying they think knowledge is a bad thing), but it's OK for pretend Christians to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably don't believe in?

Dave
Not quite. The pretend Satanists (perhaps satirical Satanists is more accurate?) are free to share their ideas to their hearts' (or minds') content. But is it really necessary to do so in a time, place and manner of presentation designed to be offensive to other celebrants? Maybe these guys would like to stand up at weddings and opine that the union is statistically doomed to failure, while they're at it?

While a lot of professed Christians may not exactly live the life ordered by their deity, they do take this time of year to spread some happy. Their level of sincerity is not really my concern. I just discourage being a gratuitous buzzkill.
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Old 6th December 2018, 05:52 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I think we agree more than disagree, and think our individual life experiences lead us to our different responses to this. I don't think either of us would lecture the Satanists to their face any more that we would the Christians.

Seasons greetings and joy!
Back atcha, Brother, and a Happy New Year to you and Yours!
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. Every sect can use public grounds to celebrate (plus or minus). I wouldn't be offended in the slightest to see Buddhist hootinannies or Hindu jazz out during their favorite times of celebration. Live it up. My objection is a pretend sect putting up sculpture to mock and insult others.

What makes this a pretend sect? Was the sect of your grandfather also a pretend sect?

How do you defend one without defending the other -- or denigrate one without denigrating the other? Of course, there's also the view that any religious sect is pretend, to the extent that the person viewing them doesn't believe in any gods.


With regard to putting up things to mock and insult others, what is a burning cross? Is it okay if it's done by a not-pretend sect (by whatever definition you use)?
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Old 6th December 2018, 06:45 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not quite. The pretend Satanists (perhaps satirical Satanists is more accurate?) are free to share their ideas to their hearts' (or minds') content. But is it really necessary to do so in a time, place and manner of presentation designed to be offensive to other celebrants?
It doesn't actually seem all that offensive to me. As other posters have said, nobody's being forced to look at it. It's much smaller and less gaudy than the Christmas decorations, the place chosen actually has no religious significance whatsoever, and the only reason to consider the time offensive is if you believe that Christianity has the sole right to any form of religious display through late November and December. In fact, what's seen as offensive about it is that it challenges the assumed prerogative of Christianity to broadcast its message; and it should be that prerogative, not the challenge, that's offensive.

Dave
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:08 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
What makes this a pretend sect? Was the sect of your grandfather also a pretend sect?

How do you defend one without defending the other -- or denigrate one without denigrating the other? Of course, there's also the view that any religious sect is pretend, to the extent that the person viewing them doesn't believe in any gods.
Conceded. 'Pretend' is the wrong word. 'Satirical' is more apt for the Satanists. After all, they name their sect after a being they claim not to believe in, but use one that is the assumed adversary of their ideological opponents. While they have a sound philosophy, their persona is taking the proverbial piss.

Regarding my grandfather, no, nothing about his faith was pretend to him. He dedicated his life to the service of his god, and frequently putting that service above his own wants. I admire those who so willingly sacrifice for the benefit of those less fortunate. They are not taking the proverbial piss.

Quote:
With regard to putting up things to mock and insult others, what is a burning cross? Is it okay if it's done by a not-pretend sect (by whatever definition you use)?
...burning cross?

...I think you have pastors confused with a very different group...
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:19 PM   #55
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No insult toward your grandfather intended.

However, many non-religious people also put themselves second in service to some "greater" cause. (Quotation marks, because the definition of greater is dependent on the person.)

Isn't a cross a religious symbol? Burning or not?

What if instead of a cross, a star and crescent were burning? Wouldn't you call that a religious symbol?


Edit to ask, why call Satanism satirical? There are believers in that religion, even if it is possible that particular item is intended satirically.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:19 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It doesn't actually seem all that offensive to me. As other posters have said, nobody's being forced to look at it. It's much smaller and less gaudy than the Christmas decorations, the place chosen actually has no religious significance whatsoever, and the only reason to consider the time offensive is if you believe that Christianity has the sole right to any form of religious display through late November and December. In fact, what's seen as offensive about it is that it challenges the assumed prerogative of Christianity to broadcast its message; and it should be that prerogative, not the challenge, that's offensive.

Dave
It's not that it is offensive, so much that it sure seems meant to be. Putting it next to a Christmas tree, as pictured in the OP, and right at eye level, is not something likely to be missed by those who are going to see the mild community spectacular that is the town's decorations. For a group who advocates knowledge and reason, would they know that such a display would reasonably be met with disdain? Picking a fight at an otherwise good-natured affair? i mean, black and crimson, with a snake wrapping around a female arm, a nice pentagram for good measure...this was meant to be a kick in the celebrants' teeth. Just like I have little sympathy for the Westboro Baptist Church's choice of venue for expressing their opinions, I think the Satanists could dial it down a little when both Christians and seculars are having some wholesome family time. there is a more considerate time and place to challenge religious thinking, if that is their intent.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:36 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
No insult toward your grandfather intended.
None taken, but thanks. I understand the context.

Quote:
However, many non-religious people also put themselves second in service to some "greater" cause. (Quotation marks, because the definition of greater is dependent on the person.)
True, 'greater' is slippery, but I admire the secular who work for the equally slippery 'good' just as much. Faith has no monopoly on good works.

Quote:
Isn't a cross a religious symbol? Burning or not?

What if instead of a cross, a star and crescent were burning? Wouldn't you call that a religious symbol?
A cross surely can be a religious symbol. Usually so, in fact. Set one ablaze and it is no longer so; now it's a hate symbol. Much like inverting a cross, which can reverently signify St Peter's upside-down crucifixion, or an Ozzy Osbourne album cover prop.

Quote:
Edit to ask, why call Satanism satirical? There are believers in that religion, even if it is possible that particular item is intended satirically.
The whole shebang is anti-religion, and outspokenly so. The dressing-up play at B-movie devil worshiping is a clever device, but that seems to be as far as it goes. I can't see religious fervor in what condemns religious thought.
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:45 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Religious freedom is religious freedom. Allow religious sculpture in a state building where it doesn't belong, then allow religious sculpture in a state building where it doesn't belong.
Too true, make the xtians sweat or have hysterics!!!!!! Keep their tiny hearts pumping wildly!!!!
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:46 PM   #59
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Fuelair's back! Welcome home!
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Old 6th December 2018, 07:52 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Fuelair's back! Welcome home!
Thank you kindly!!
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:01 PM   #61
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I'm happy they're doing something nice like this. I was worried the War on Christmas would get postponed this year, what with all the horrible crap going on.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's not that it is offensive, so much that it sure seems meant to be. Putting it next to a Christmas tree, as pictured in the OP, and right at eye level, is not something likely to be missed by those who are going to see the mild community spectacular that is the town's decorations. For a group who advocates knowledge and reason, would they know that such a display would reasonably be met with disdain? Picking a fight at an otherwise good-natured affair? i mean, black and crimson, with a snake wrapping around a female arm, a nice pentagram for good measure...this was meant to be a kick in the celebrants' teeth. Just like I have little sympathy for the Westboro Baptist Church's choice of venue for expressing their opinions, I think the Satanists could dial it down a little when both Christians and seculars are having some wholesome family time. there is a more considerate time and place to challenge religious thinking, if that is their intent.
I'm still just seeing a lot of "it's all in good fun when we do it, it's offensive when they do it."
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I'm happy they're doing something nice like this. I was worried the War on Christmas would get postponed this year, what with all the horrible crap going on.


I'm still just seeing a lot of "it's all in good fun when we do it, it's offensive when they do it."
Not at all. Being randomly disrespectful to strangers is never okay (being disrespectful to targeted people can be okay, sometimes). People sometimes have Solstice celebrations around here. Not sure if they are pagans, or new-agey people, or what, but same thing: I give them their space. Don't blow someone's high for your own self-righeousness, no matter your beliefs. If someone picks a fight, give it to them. Otherwise, live and let live.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:22 PM   #63
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How respectful do you think it is to set up religious displays in government spaces?

The key to all of these Satanic Temple shenanigans is it's always in response to someone else's religious display. If one is appropriate and respectful, both are. If one is offensive or disrespectful, both are.

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Old 6th December 2018, 08:28 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
I'd hit that.
OK that's creepy.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:38 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not at all. Being randomly disrespectful to strangers is never okay (being disrespectful to targeted people can be okay, sometimes).
They aren't being randomly disrespectful. They expressing sincere disagreement, in one of the contexts from which the disagreement stems. We can distinguish celebrations from insults, but we can also distinguish genuine opposition from nihilistic invective.
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Old 6th December 2018, 08:50 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
How respectful do you think it is to set up religious displays in government spaces?

The key to all of these Satanic Temple shenanigans is it's always in response to someone else's religious display. If one is appropriate and respectful, both are. If one is offensive or disrespectful, both are.
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
They aren't being randomly disrespectful. They expressing sincere disagreement, in one of the contexts from which the disagreement stems. We can distinguish celebrations from insults, but we can also distinguish genuine opposition from nihilistic invective.
I get that they have the right to do what they are doing. My take is that they shouldn't do so if their intent is only to ridicule.

The Christmas jazz is intended as a positive thing. The Baphomets and whatnot are intended as negatives, just a spit in the face to prove a point. The point is valid, and worthy of discussion. But in the same way I wouldn't piss on a Mecca mat, I would expect the Satanists to ease up and let the harmless fun be had. Sharpen up the pitchforks for school prayer and all.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I get that they have the right to do what they are doing. My take is that they shouldn't do so if their intent is only to ridicule.
I get what you're saying, and I think you're wrong that their only intent is to ridicule. This isn't what mere ridicule looks like. It's provocative, but not nihilistically provocative.

Quote:
The Christmas jazz is intended as a positive thing. The Baphomets and whatnot are intended as negatives, just a spit in the face to prove a point. The point is valid, and worthy of discussion. But in the same way I wouldn't piss on a Mecca mat, I would expect the Satanists to ease up and let the harmless fun be had. Sharpen up the pitchforks for school prayer and all.
I don't agree that this constitutes a spit in the face. A manger scene with Satan killing the baby Jesus probably would. It simply expresses a disagreement ("How can you think Satan is the villain in these stories?")

The fact that some Christians brook no disagreement in these matters is the whole of the problem.
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Old 6th December 2018, 09:14 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I get that they have the right to do what they are doing. My take is that they shouldn't do so if their intent is only to ridicule.

The Christmas jazz is intended as a positive thing. The Baphomets and whatnot are intended as negatives, just a spit in the face to prove a point. The point is valid, and worthy of discussion. But in the same way I wouldn't piss on a Mecca mat, I would expect the Satanists to ease up and let the harmless fun be had. Sharpen up the pitchforks for school prayer and all.
Again, how is it that a Christian religious display on government grounds counts as "just harmless fun" and "a positive thing," while a display having a bit of fun at their religion's expense is "spitting in their face?" If they don't like it, they can keep their manger scene in the church where it belongs, and I guarantee they won't hear a peep out of those mean ol' Satanists with their selfishly wanting a properly respected division between church and state.

And I'll disagree with your last sentiment. This is exactly where the pitchforks need to come out.
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Old 6th December 2018, 10:35 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Never **** Satanic. Witches be crazy yo.
I know. I love me sum crazy witches.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:28 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I get that they have the right to do what they are doing. My take is that they shouldn't do so if their intent is only to ridicule.

The Christmas jazz is intended as a positive thing. The Baphomets and whatnot are intended as negatives, just a spit in the face to prove a point. The point is valid, and worthy of discussion. But in the same way I wouldn't piss on a Mecca mat, I would expect the Satanists to ease up and let the harmless fun be had. Sharpen up the pitchforks for school prayer and all.
The point is in this specific case, it's not harmless. These are openly, overtly religious display inside the state capitol building. Not in shared public spaces, not private property that's in view of the sidewalk, but the actual halls of government. Lawmakers allow displays of specific religious intent. That makes all the difference in the world when viewing the 'offensive' apple.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:58 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I get what you're saying, and I think you're wrong that their only intent is to ridicule. This isn't what mere ridicule looks like. It's provocative, but not nihilistically provocative.


I don't agree that this constitutes a spit in the face. A manger scene with Satan killing the baby Jesus probably would. It simply expresses a disagreement ("How can you think Satan is the villain in these stories?")

The fact that some Christians brook no disagreement in these matters is the whole of the problem.
You're right, provocative is a better descriptor than ridicule. And they certainly are trying to provoke, here.

Do you think this will win any converts, or even cause someone to stop and think about the role of Satan in the quest for knowledge, or the Church's discouragement of scientific understanding over dogma? Imma go out on a limb and say no. It will likely only put the Satanists in a worse light to most viewers.
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:02 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're right, provocative is a better descriptor than ridicule. And they certainly are trying to provoke, here.

Do you think this will win any converts, or even cause someone to stop and think about the role of Satan in the quest for knowledge, or the Church's discouragement of scientific understanding over dogma? Imma go out on a limb and say no. It will likely only put the Satanists in a worse light to most viewers.
Isn't this the Satanists concern? Are they seeking converts? I don't think so.
I think they are trying to provoke a discussion, and look! It worked.
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:18 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Again, how is it that a Christian religious display on government grounds counts as "just harmless fun" and "a positive thing," while a display having a bit of fun at their religion's expense is "spitting in their face?" If they don't like it, they can keep their manger scene in the church where it belongs, and I guarantee they won't hear a peep out of those mean ol' Satanists with their selfishly wanting a properly respected division between church and state.

And I'll disagree with your last sentiment. This is exactly where the pitchforks need to come out.
Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
The point is in this specific case, it's not harmless. These are openly, overtly religious display inside the state capitol building. Not in shared public spaces, not private property that's in view of the sidewalk, but the actual halls of government. Lawmakers allow displays of specific religious intent. That makes all the difference in the world when viewing the 'offensive' apple.
The rotunda in the OP is a little tricky. It is treated like a public space, but is clearly adjacent to the halls of governing, more so than a public park.

So they can't use taxpayer funds to endorse a religiously themed exhibit. All well and good. These are privately provided exhibits. Still all well and good. What does their proximity to the lawmakers offices mean to you? Most lawmakers rather openly wear their religion on their sleeves and speak publicly about it. So I think this idea that the nativity was 'too close to the govt' falls a little flat. They already endorse their convictions publicly. The traditional decorations that others put up nearby don't change anything.

Is there something wrong with community members decorating their public space with traditional holiday decor? Only if you plan to storm the White House as well. While you're at it, every public street that sports lights or garland and wreaths on its streetlights and all.

But that's okay, as long as the Satan guys can put their Halloweeney-style thing up? Well, that is a fair argument. If they were putting up something that was part of one of their important festivals, say a Solstice celebration. And of course, if the Satanists were actual Satanists or pagans or witches or whatever.

The Devil dudes are not celebrating, as the other participants are. They are walking in giving everyone the finger because they don't like anything associated with Christianity. That's petty.
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:21 AM   #74
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The more you can easily get bothered by the Satanist display but defend the Christian display, the point is made more.
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:30 AM   #75
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Am I the only one who bristles at the characterization of "harmless fun"? "Harmless fun" is the go-to defense of, inter alia, pretty much every sexual harasser. It begs the question of who decides it's harmless.

Those uppity women who complain about sexual harassment in the #metoo movement are just pissing everyone off, right? They need to shut up and accept abuse as the compliments in which it is intended. It's just all harmless fun....

For the one doing it....
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:32 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Isn't this the Satanists concern? Are they seeking converts? I don't think so.
I think they are trying to provoke a discussion, and look! It worked.
They did indeed. The discussion being about how much of a dick they are needlessly being.

I would welcome their input at a meeting to discuss inclusion of YEC or intelligent design in public schools. I would support their insistence on being displayed next to the Ten Commandments. And if they want to establish a church on main street and host civic events, I would be all for them.

Appropriate time and place is all I would ask. Not protesting the state recognition of marriage outside a church where a couple were getting married, for instance. These guys are taking the WBC approach to delivering their message. They have that right, but I don't think they are doing themselves any favors by exercising it.
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:33 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The more you can easily get bothered by the Satanist display but defend the Christian display, the point is made more.

What's the quote from Southpark where Kyle tells the Rev. that he's Jewish? Rev. says something like "You're not too Jewish to love Jesus, are you?". Yeah.
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:35 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The more you can easily get bothered by the Satanist display but defend the Christian display, the point is made more.
Yup. The WBC really brings their point home too, amirite?
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:36 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Am I the only one who bristles at the characterization of "harmless fun"? "Harmless fun" is the go-to defense of, inter alia, pretty much every sexual harasser. It begs the question of who decides it's harmless.

Those uppity women who complain about sexual harassment in the #metoo movement are just pissing everyone off, right? They need to shut up and accept abuse as the compliments in which it is intended. It's just all harmless fun....

For the one doing it....
...public Christmas trees are analogous to raping, now?
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:40 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They did indeed. The discussion being about how much of a dick they are needlessly being.

I would welcome their input at a meeting to discuss inclusion of YEC or intelligent design in public schools. I would support their insistence on being displayed next to the Ten Commandments. And if they want to establish a church on main street and host civic events, I would be all for them.

Appropriate time and place is all I would ask. Not protesting the state recognition of marriage outside a church where a couple were getting married, for instance. These guys are taking the WBC approach to delivering their message. They have that right, but I don't think they are doing themselves any favors by exercising it.
I welcome their input on equal footing with Christianity. Any time, any government space.

The Christian display was (presumably) as quiet as the was the Satanist display. No one was yelling at anyone. Comparing this silent display with WBC appears to reflect a bias in your thinking.

Obviously, the Satanists are dickeshly unconcerned with who they might offend. Just like the Christians.
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