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Old 11th May 2012, 06:55 AM   #1
calebprime
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Recent pieces of mine, with links

There's so much stuff in my box that no one can be expected to find the better-quality pieces. So I'm providing links to each piece, with some brief comments.

Basically, these are all modern-classical pieces, realized using Logic. Most use some kind of abstractly-conceived series combined with tonal centers. Most are five to ten minutes. Some recent ones use a tuning based on 87EDO*, but this is hard to hear, because I'm not doing that much with 87EDO, usually. That is, it can sound pretty similar to conventional 12EDO tuning. All my work with series is aided by software written or tweaked by JREF's own 69Dodge -- who I think is one smart dude.

*(Equal Divisions of the Octave) A too-technical explanation of 87EDO which no-one will understand:
http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/87edo

I'm listing these from most recent to oldest. It should be obvious that I like absurdist titles.

Chords with Figuration:
https://www.box.com/s/daf63fb69db30e7d2cb0
Slow chords create background harmonies, on top of which I run active lines and little polyrhythms -- the "figuration". 87EDO, but sounds like 12EDO.

fugazzifx:
https://www.box.com/s/au4esop559vae2353i4n
A more-or-less 12-tone fugue, based somewhat on the sound of Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion and Celeste, but different. His fugue is more exciting than mine. Just an adequate string-sound realization. I'm proud of this, but it has a few aspects which are not quite legit, hence "fugazzi". Straight 12EDO tuning.

Elusive Mr. Moy
https://www.box.com/s/0ac8fd057b0c8e44c66a
My third piece to solve the technical problems of getting 87EDO to work in Logic. The key to this is third-party software called Lil' Miss Scale Oven. No one can predict when Mr. Moy will show up. No one knows where he goes.

Herter Norton (bare)
https://www.box.com/s/3c60f69b9852df52dc24
A sad piece, with artist Kerry Dennehy's voice in the middle. A strange kind of quasi-tonal counterpoint. 87EDO, but you can't tell.

Beads (lighten up, Dave)
https://www.box.com/shared/5dygo2jon4
A lighter piece with some obvious microtonal patches and self-similar shapes.
87EDO, again.

fam res 6.305
https://www.box.com/s/2ed6645d49af17a98f86
Standard tuning, uses a possibly repudiated text by Blobru. Voice by Kerry Dennehy. Sort of a night-time dark vibe. My son makes a subtle appearance, mixed low.


My goal is to do synthetic pieces that stand on their own. That is, these files are intended to be the pieces, rather than being stand-ins for some future performance by live ensemble. That's the way I roll.

Discussions of synthesis, tech, tuning, serialism, etc. welcome. But be kind -- I find I remember every insult I've ever gotten. They're all still lodged in my thin skin like poison darts. I'm as committed to my style and method as any fetishist is to his perverted method of getting off. Too old, or too stupid, to change, now.
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Old 12th May 2012, 07:16 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
*(Equal Divisions of the Octave) A too-technical explanation of 87EDO which no-one will understand:
http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/87edo
You're abso-frickin'-lutely right about that, chief. That page made almost no sense to me. What is this, higher math? Don't mathematicians -- Boulez, Babbitt, Xanakis, and real mathematicians -- make horrible music?

Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
snip... Some recent ones use a tuning based on 87EDO*, but this is hard to hear, because I'm not doing that much with 87EDO, usually.
Then why do it? And why 87, um "Edo", as you insist on calling it? Why not 60EDO, or 72EDO, or 11EDO, or 12EDO? Weren't there twelve apostles, 12 hours, 12 days of christmas? Why do you hate America?
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Old 12th May 2012, 07:49 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
You're abso-frickin'-lutely right about that, chief. That page made almost no sense to me. What is this, higher math? Don't mathematicians -- Boulez, Babbitt, Xanakis, and real mathematicians -- make horrible music?

Then why do it? And why 87, um "Edo", as you insist on calling it? Why not 60EDO, or 72EDO, or 11EDO, or 12EDO? Weren't there twelve apostles, 12 hours, 12 days of christmas? Why do you hate America?
The wiki page is probably by Gene Ward Smith, who is a bona-fide real mathematician, and he probably knows more about tuning systems than any man alive, or dead.

Yes, it's technical. I found this off-putting for a long time, but I realized that he can't speak any other way. (As an old girlfriend used to put it, he's "too smart to talk." She'd put her nerd expression on, and do an imitation of MIT students that started with " Welllllllllllllllll, ummmmmmmm" before launching into something incomprehensible.)


Why microtones at all?

Many composers agree about the basic cultural situation, but differ in their personal solutions to it. That is, everything's been tried. There are no virgin patches of land, on which to build your house, raise yer kids up. But there are some less-travelled places -- the swamps, the thickets, the cold or gnarly regions. People don't want to get dirty feet or get hit in the face with branches, so they don't go there. (That's a metaphor, see.)

Microtones are more difficult, both technically, and musically. Generally speaking.

The reward is that when they are good, they are very, very good. Etc. Consonances are sweeter, dissonances are harsher. Inversions (voicings) are more distinct, fussier, harder to control. Register is relatively more important.

I should add that microtonal composers debate endlessly about this stuff, and many would quibble or completely disagree with what I've said.

Why 87EDO?

Because it approximates 13-limit Just Intonation and 12-tone equal temperament very well, and does this better than 72EDO, imo. 72EDO is the preferred tuning-framework of the Boston microtonalists, so I reject it for that very reason: I hate America Boston. 72EDO is fine, but 87 sounds better to me. It has a slightly sharp fifth (or 3/2) and it gets my favorite microtonal intervals almost exactly. And, unlike pure JI*, it's got a little slow beating, so the consonances won't sound like you just ate pure sugar, or put your tongue on a 9-volt battery. (Which pure JI does, to me, sorta, especially on synths.)

Why do it in a piece if it sounds almost like 12EDO?

Because you need a framework, and you have to take baby steps, and you have to work with what you already know. The technique comes before the conviction and confidence, not after. In my case, it's hard, very hard, to combine self-similarity with serialism with a microtonal system.

One solution is to map the series onto diatonic scales (basically melodic-minor-type or harmonic-minor-type) which are then tuned in the 87EDO approximation of 11-limit JI. (If you can understand that sentence, you deserve a Master's degree.)

I can't throw out all the other dimensions of my music to concentrate on writing microtonal etudes. I have to try to put in everything I know.


*JI--Just Intonation. Tunings based on exact simple ratios, basically. The "limit" is the highest prime factor. Anything over 19-limit, you're kidding yourself. (Someone disagrees). 5-limit JI explains traditional tonal harmony very well. Partch went for 11-limit. I like some 13-limit intervals, like 13/3, 13/1, etc., so I stop there.
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Last edited by calebprime; 12th May 2012 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 14th May 2012, 04:51 AM   #4
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Today's hopeful folly: First some technical info about the scale/tuning I use, with an old practice-jam on a very similar scale. Then, next post, some pros and cons -- "some good points, some bad points" -- as the old Talking Heads song would have it.

old practice-jam: https://www.box.com/s/6b2a51a58a6a442fd508
(This merely shows that it's possible to get fluent in a similar 36-note scale. Loop originally from a 5/4 Buddy Rich groove.)

36-note subset of 87EDO that I'm using in these pieces:

In relative units. Each unit = 13.793 cents:

7, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 5, 3, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 4, 6, 1, 1, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 1, 1, 3, 8 (this is nearly symmetrical, but has some modifications)

In absolute units of 87, or 13.793 cents, from 0 to 87 (the 2/1, or octave):
0, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 28, 29, 31, 36, 39, 40, 42, 44, 45, 47, 51, 57, 58, 59, 62, 64, 66, 68, 70, 73, 74, 75, 76, 79, 87

In relative cents:
96.552, 13.793, 27.586, 13.793, 27.586, 27.587, 27.586, 27.586, 41.379, 13.793, 27.587, 41.379, 13.793, 27.586, 68.966, 41.379, 13.793, 27.586, 27.587, 13.793, 27.586, 55.172, 82.759, 13.793, 13.793, 41.379, 27.587, 27.586, 27.586, 27.586, 41.38, 13.793, 13.793, 13.793, 41.379, 110.345

In absolute cents (This is the easiest way for me to think about it):
0., 96.552, 110.345, 137.931, 151.724, 179.31, 206.897, 234.483, 262.069, 303.448, 317.241, 344.828, 386.207, 400., 427.586, 496.552, 537.931, 551.724, 579.31, 606.897, 620.69, 648.276, 703.448, 786.207, 800., 813.793, 855.172, 882.759, 910.345, 937.931, 965.517, 1006.897, 1020.69, 1034.483, 1048.276, 1089.655

Note that 87 is not a prime, but is divisible by 3, so it gives 400 and 800 cents exactly.

In "conceptual chunks" -- a phrase I just made up right now:
This scale gives close approximations of the following overtone series on the following "roots" or fundamentals: /1, /3, /5, /7, /9, /11, /15, like so:
/1: 1/1, 9/8, 5/4, 11/8, 3/2, 7/4, 15/8, (2/1)

/3: 4/3, 3/2, 5/3, 11/6, 2/1, 7/6, 5/4, (4/3)

/5: 8/5, 9/5, 2/1, 11/10, 6/5, 7/5, 3/2, (8/5)

/7: 8/7, 9/7, 10/7, 11/7, 12/7, 2/1, 15/14, (8/7)

/9: 16/9, 2/1, 10/9, 11/9, 4/3, 14/9, 5/3, (16/9)

/11: 16/11 18/11, 20/11, 2/1, 14/11, 15/11, (16/11)

/15: 16/15, 6/5, 4/3, 22/15, 8/5, no 28/15, (16/15)
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Old 14th May 2012, 06:08 AM   #5
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Question 87

Of Calebprime's 36-pitch subset of 87EDO, an approximation of 11-limit JI, with a few 13-ratios just sort of thrown in there, willy nilly.

(In Nineteen articles)

We must now consider Calebprime's scale, or tuning. Under this head, there are 19 points of inquiry:

(1) Whether 87EDO is a suitable tuning-framework?

(2) Whether a 36-pitch subset is too many or too few?

(3) Whether unequal step-sizes are advantageous, disadvantageous, or a grievous error?

(4) Whether transposition is impossible or too difficult?

(5) Whether this scale is suitable for certain tricky contrapuntal situations that create "comma pumps" -- in which unsolvable conflicts of pitch may cause the choir attempting to sing them to experience fantods and ultimately, despair?

(6) Whether it sounds good?

(7) Whether you can dance to it?

(8) Whether it has significant advantages over pure JI, or adaptive JI?

(9) Whether constancy in devotion to one's chosen scale is a virtue, or indeed, whether fickleness is better?

(10) Whether the "overtone series" should have scare quotes around it?

(11) Whether this represents merely technical fetishism, or rather a commendable desire to hone and to compromise and to integrate past and future musical techniques, or what?

(12) Whether the 72EDO format favored by many of the Boston Microtonalists is just as good, and whether embracing 87EDO is merely perverse, hateful, or indeed, represents the narcissism of small differences?

(13) Whether discussions of this subject in this manner are symptomatic of mania, and should be treated with neuroleptics, lithium, or at least pithy pleas to "get help"?

(14) WTF?

(15) Whether Brian Eno spoke verily when he sayeth, "“Ohhh, microtonality, that just produces a lot of good theory and a lot of bad music.” ?

(16) Whether Harry Partch was a genius or a crankus, or a bit of both?

(17) Whether in a cultural climate that produces books such as Guitar Zero, and games like Guitar Hero, this venture is quixotic at best?

(18) Whether attempting to combine serialism, jazz, self-similarity, and microtonality is serving too many masters -- yea, like a man who is riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass, or just being an ass -- at the same time?

(19) Whether James Galway is correct to say that "Composers should stop *********** around and write some pretty tunes!" ?
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Old 14th May 2012, 07:30 AM   #6
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Boxcloud site either doesn't like android phones or is incredibly slow.
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Old 14th May 2012, 07:38 AM   #7
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I've been listening to some of the pieces and I find them beautiful.
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Old 14th May 2012, 08:48 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
Boxcloud site either doesn't like android phones or is incredibly slow.
I'm old-fashioned enough about tech that I can't speak to that directly -- I don't own a cell-phone or an I-thingy.

My own home Internet connection is not that fast, and the pieces do play in real-time.

Most of the pieces are also download-able, if you have room for them.

I would ask that you either listen on decent speakers or headphones, in a quiet space, or that you don't tell me about it, or I'll worry. You wouldn't want me to worry, would you?

I once had a producer-friend listen to a piece of mine in her car. The piece consisted almost solely of different kinds of ambient white-noise. Needless to say, it didn't make much of an impression in a car, which is very noisy. She was miffed. She was also, apparently, not sophisticated enough to consider set and setting, even though she'd been producing TV for over 20 years. Actually, she had other reasons to be mad at me, and this was merely a pretext to be miffed.
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Old 14th May 2012, 09:51 AM   #9
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I think it's an android compatibility problem. Started download two hours ago and no progress. Bummer...
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Old 14th May 2012, 11:44 PM   #10
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I've listened to fugazzi three times in a row now, love it! I like the rest as well, but that's my favourite.
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Old 14th May 2012, 11:55 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I've been listening to some of the pieces and I find them beautiful.
Agreed. You are very talented caleb. I'll listen to them all over time.
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:13 AM   #12
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Thanks for the nice comments.

(Dr. Lester: I've been very lonely in my isolated tower of indecipherable speech.)
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
Thanks for the nice comments.

(Dr. Lester: I've been very lonely in my isolated tower of indecipherable speech.)
Thanks for the music!

(Is that from Being John Malkovich?)
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Old 15th May 2012, 04:55 AM   #14
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I'm going to download them. Need some music like this.
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Old 15th May 2012, 05:23 AM   #15
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I'm not sure if you'll take this as a compliment or criticism (its meant as a compliment though), but "Chords with Figuration" could very easily be used as background for a creepy dungeon crawler like Diablo. In fact it's the first thing I thought of when I heard it.

Very nicely done - a great mood piece.
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
I'm not sure if you'll take this as a compliment or criticism (its meant as a compliment though), but "Chords with Figuration" could very easily be used as background for a creepy dungeon crawler like Diablo. In fact it's the first thing I thought of when I heard it.

Very nicely done - a great mood piece.

Don't mind that take on it at all. It's got a kind of construction that's a lot like film-scoring: Pads with stuff on top. Plus, it sort of starts and stops in one or two-minute episodes -- almost like TV.

There's a lot of really talented young composers going into gaming, from what I've learned from my young Berklee informant.

One composer who's too old for gaming said that the figuration was like pinwheels or fireworks, and the chords reminded him that I'm sort of originally a country boy -- a lot of space. Composers who are more into contemporary classical music than they are into movies don't hear strange harmonies and abrupt gestures as creepy or threatening as much as normal people. My kid, at age three, heard a dissonant chord on a TV show, and said "Oh, the scary music is starting." That's how early that connection probably begins, for most people.
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Old 15th May 2012, 06:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Helen View Post

(Is that from Being John Malkovich?)

I don't know how you put up with this speech impediment of mine. I apologize if you can't understand a word I'm saying.
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Old 15th May 2012, 09:00 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
I don't know how you put up with this speech impediment of mine. I apologize if you can't understand a word I'm saying.
You don't have a speech impediment, Calebprime. I understand perfectly.
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Old 15th May 2012, 10:01 AM   #19
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It's very kind of you to lie.
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Old 15th May 2012, 11:04 AM   #20
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I think this is where we run out of floor
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Old 15th May 2012, 12:06 PM   #21
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The fugazzi piece you like is similar in some ways to the fugue from Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste. That is, it's a chromatic fugue for strings, like Bartok's. His fugue is not twelve-tone, though. His is better, but it's no shame not being as good as Bartok.

His subject goes A,Bb,C#,C,B. Rising and falling, five notes, up 1,3, down 1,1.

Mine goes F,G,Db,A,Ab. Up 2,6, down 4,1.

So my subject is vaguely like an expansion by 2 of the Bartok theme.

The whole series: F,G,Db,A,Ab,C,Eb,E,B,Bb,D,Gb.

It's self-similar in the following way, if there are any grad-students out there with too much time on their hands:

1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..10.11.12
F..G..Db.A..Ab.C..Eb.E..B..Bb.D..Gb
g..a..eb.b..bb.d..f..gb.db.c..e..ab
2..4..7..9..10.11.1..12.3..6..8..5


Which is to say that the series has a copy of itself up a second embedded in itself at somewhat regular intervals, and this guides my choice of transpositions of each entrance of the subject.

In Bartok, the entrances fan out in alternating 4ths and 5ths: A,E,D,B,G,F#, etc.

His piece has these amazing passing-harmonies that just boggle my mind: I feel like some kind of square, or some kind of primitive person gaping at his note-choices and wondering why they sound so beautiful when they look so weird on the page.

My harmonic choices are consistent with my series, and slightly more adventurous than what I would usually do because I studied the Bartok. But they're actually more conservative, less linear, less magical, than his.

He wrote MfSP&C in 1937 or before. I'll never quite catch up to him.

Craig's Dance of Despair and Disillusion in Malkovich is set to the second movement of the same piece. It's heard once at the beginning, then again performed "live" by the Malkovich puppet. Another good use of the Bartok is in The Shining, by Kubrick.

just fyi.

See, Helen? It's not just playing with dolls. It's playing with people.
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Old 15th May 2012, 03:03 PM   #22
calebprime
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
The fugazzi piece you like is similar in some ways to the fugue from Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste. ...

See, Helen? It's not just playing with dolls. It's playing with people.
One little fix. And Helen (Maxine) should have had the opportunity to add that line, not me.

Way off topic, but of course I'm joking.

Seriously, though, I don't view Craig as evil or essentially narcissistic, he's just "a very confused man" as Lottie says.

Which is to say that he's an artist-type, meaning he's sort of amoral rather than immoral. He's not essentially manipulative or greedy. Rather, he gets his satisfaction from mastery of his area of expertise. That's neither good nor bad. However, when temptation (in the form of Maxine) comes his way, he's ready to chuck everything, including Lottie.

His relationship with Lottie resembles many I've seen in academic communities, in the past. The man is devoted to some form of technical prowess, and the woman is ultra-nurturing. This works well enough as the attraction of opposites, until that basic tension starts to pull things apart. The woman wants kids, the man wants to continue to pursue his harmless but ineffectual plans for microcosmic domination.

When artists fail, sometimes you get.............








wait for it.....







Hitler. Jim Nabors. Mr Rogers.


anyway, back to topic, which is 87edo, I think.
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Old 16th May 2012, 09:16 AM   #23
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I'm going to watch that film again, I had forgotten the puppet scene. And the Bartok, although it's a piece I like.

Thanks, Calebprime, I very nearly understood some of what you wrote about the music! And like it even more.
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Old 17th May 2012, 05:13 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I've been listening to some of the pieces and I find them beautiful.
Ditto here.

I am a real philistine when it comes to modern music...embarrassingly so, considering I majored in music theory for three years. However, once I let go of the demand that all music must be syntactically similar, I find these pieces very enjoyable.

Some of the passages bring to mind pointillism.
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Old 17th May 2012, 05:15 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
(2) Whether a 36-pitch subset is too many or too few?
Any pieces based on a 36-tone row?
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Old 17th May 2012, 08:33 AM   #26
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[/font]
Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
Any pieces based on a 36-tone row?
I tried a 19-tone row once, but it was just too many notes for me, I couldn't really understand it. There's a sketch in the box called 19sketch.toomany.mp3...

https://www.box.com/s/8a70a1221be48f8263db

...where you can hear me trying to break it into groups (ones without too many contiguous adjacent notes in 19 tone-space, so chunking into aggregates that resemble tonal chords) but my head sort of explodes and I couldn't continue the sketch. Couldn't grok it. Maybe it's the rule of 7, plus or minus a couple. Anything over 10 is a number too big to think of in one chunk, maybe.

Wagner, who was not a nice man -- but he wrote Tristan & Isolde -- said that melodies shouldn't have too many half-steps in the melody -- too whiny. So I want to avoid too much whine in the melody, too many little steps.

I like to hear microtonal shifts of tuning, though, which are more like harmonic effects -- a note is heard as just being bent rather than being a new distinct melodic pitch, and it's part of a harmony. You have to combine with other notes, do arpeggios. I don't want to sound like a mosquito.

I'm really happy because 69Dodge -- perhaps the greatest man who ever lived, greater even than Gandhi -- wrote some new code that make it possible to find a new kind of array or combination of notes. I've been waiting to hear this for something like ten years, because of bugs in the original program. Mr. Dodge wrote new code that finds arrays where every chord makes a nice combination with the one next to it. These sound great to me -- just plunking them out on the piano. Some sound better than others, and they need to be voiced. But you can just let each chord ring with the one before it or the one after it:

Heh, slight formatting problem, but it looks sort of funny.

ri/8/10:.............E..Ab.B..G..F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F ..
p/8/2:...............B..Eb.G..D..E..F#.C#.Bb.A..F..Ab. C..
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/5/3:..............C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..Ab.E..E b.
p/10/8:..............Eb.C..B..G..Bb.D..C#.F..A..E..F#.A b.
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/3/8:..............Ab.C..B..Eb.F#.D..C#.Bb.F..G..A..E ..
p/10/8:..............Eb.C..B..G..Bb.D..C#.F..A..E..F#.A b.
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/3/10:.............B..Eb.F#.D..C#.Bb.F..G..A..E..Ab.C ..
p/10/8:..............Eb.C..B..G..Bb.D..C#.F..A..E..F#.A b.
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

i/10/1:..............F#.G..Eb.B..E..D..C..F..Ab.A..C#.B b.
i/10/0:..............Bb.F#.G..Eb.B..E..D..C..F..Ab.A..C #.
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/5/3:..............C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..Ab.E..E b.
ri/5/2:..............Eb.C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..Ab.E ..
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

5x/p/0/1:............Ab.Eb.B..G..F#.E..D..C#.Bb.F..A..C..
ri/5/2:..............Eb.C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..Ab.E ..
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/3/10:.............B..Eb.F#.D..C#.Bb.F..G..A..E..Ab.C ..
ri/5/3:..............C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..Ab.E..E b.
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..



ri/8/11:.............Ab.B..G..F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F..E ..
ri/8/10:.............E..Ab.B..G..F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F ..
p/0/1:...............E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#.A.. C..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..


ri/8/3:..............Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F..E..Ab.B..G..F #.
ri/8/2:..............F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F..E..Ab.B..G ..
p/5/8:...............Bb.G..F#.D..F..A..Ab.C..E..B..C#. Eb.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

.

i/10/11:.............C#.Bb.F#.G..Eb.B..E..D..C..F..Ab.A ..
i/10/0:..............Bb.F#.G..Eb.B..E..D..C..F..Ab.A..C #.
p/0/11:..............A..C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D.. C#.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/5/1:..............E..Eb.C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..A b.
ri/5/0:..............Ab.E..Eb.C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F ..
p/0/11:..............A..C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D.. C#.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/5/2:..............Eb.C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..Ab.E ..
ri/5/1:..............E..Eb.C..G..A..B..F#.Bb.D..C#.F..A b.
p/0/11:..............A..C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D.. C#.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

5x/ri/2/3:...........C#.C..Bb.Ab.G..Eb.B..F#.D..F..A..E..
ri/3/6:..............A..E..Ab.C..B..Eb.F#.D..C#.Bb.F..G ..
p/0/11:..............A..C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D.. C#.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/8/10:.............E..Ab.B..G..F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F ..
ri/8/9:..............F..E..Ab.B..G..F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C #.
p/0/11:..............A..C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D.. C#.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

i/10/1:..............F#.G..Eb.B..E..D..C..F..Ab.A..C#.B b.
r/6/11:..............F#.Eb.G..Ab.B..E..D..C..F..C#.A.. Bb.
r/6/0:...............Eb.G..Ab.B..E..D..C..F..C#.A..Bb. F#.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..


ri/8/10:.............E..Ab.B..G..F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F ..
i/8/6:...............C..Bb.Eb.F#.G..B..Ab.E..F..C#.A.. D..
r/0/4:...............Bb.Ab.F#.B..G..Eb.E..C..A..C#.D.. F..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..


ri/8/2:..............F#.Eb.Bb.C..D..A..C#.F..E..Ab.B..G ..
i/8/6:...............C..Bb.Eb.F#.G..B..Ab.E..F..C#.A.. D..
r/0/8:...............G..Eb.E..C..A..C#.D..F..Bb.Ab.F#. B..
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..


ri/3/9:..............C..B..Eb.F#.D..C#.Bb.F..G..A..E..A b.
ri/2/7:..............Eb.G..B..Bb.D..F..C#.C..A..E..F#.A b.
ri/2/6:..............Ab.Eb.G..B..Bb.D..F..C#.C..A..E..F #.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..

ri/3/10:.............B..Eb.F#.D..C#.Bb.F..G..A..E..Ab.C ..
ri/2/7:..............Eb.G..B..Bb.D..F..C#.C..A..E..F#.A b.
ri/2/6:..............Ab.Eb.G..B..Bb.D..F..C#.C..A..E..F #.
p/0/0:...............C..E..Eb.G..B..F#.Ab.Bb.F..D..C#. A..



The amazing thing to me about the work that 69Dodge did is that --

1) he had to understand the theory well enough
2) he had to program in some old version of Pascal*
3) he wasn't able to compile it, so he probably just had to get it right
4) he did it pretty quickly and it works
5) he doesn't talk much, just comes through

*Because that's what the program was originally written in.

Here are the commands to find these series:

?new row #1:c,e,eb,g,b,f#,g#,a#,f,d,c#,a
?voc #1:4
?ex forms: 5p 5x5p
?ex pit prox2:eb,f
?ex pit prox2:eb,d
?ex pit prox2:f,f#
?ex har:0,0,0,0
?ex har:0,0,0
?ex har prox2:0,1,2
?ex har:0,3,6,9
?run
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Old 17th May 2012, 10:46 PM   #27
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Fantastic! I chose to listen to Elusive Mr. Moy fist and it's great so far.

Thanks for sharing.
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Old 29th May 2012, 04:52 PM   #28
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Some musical illustrations of the kind of microtonality I do:

From a previous post:

In "conceptual chunks" -- a phrase I just made up right now:
This scale gives close approximations of the following overtone series on the following "roots" or fundamentals: /1, /3, /5, /7, /9, /11, /15, like so:
/1: 1/1, 9/8, 5/4, 11/8, 3/2, 7/4, 15/8, (2/1)



https://www.box.com/s/dbab71c55fe2c7e2662b

Here's an illustration of that, with some license. About 3 minutes. Not beautiful, but it shows the material.


/1 two scales, and an arpegg.

/9 scale up and down

/5 scale up and down, with clam

/11 scale up, high note (1/1), down

/3 scale up, down

/7 scale up, down with inexplicable repeated notes, then arpegg.

/15 scale up, noodle, base-note

(eta: this is the basic sequence 8,9,10,11,12,14,15)

then some noodling:


/1 triplets,

into 1/1 octatonic-ish, then a pentatonic thingy with a b2 leading to 1

more octatonic

some chords

/11 /1

chords in "4ths", some more chords

more octatonic noodling

===========================

https://www.box.com/s/42e0fbc84ca7801602a6

A strange hybrid piece few will like, but I sort of do. Piece by Jay Flower,
microtonal Dx7 wanking by Mr. Prime. A clash of generations.

===========================

https://www.box.com/s/088cb44a83ba24330b23

A carefully-crafted microtonal composition: "Microtonal study in 7"
Did this a long time ago, with a Synclavier and a lot of outboard midi sound-modules.
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Old 17th June 2012, 03:03 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
...

36-note subset of 87EDO that I'm using in these pieces:

In relative units. Each unit = 13.793 cents:

7, 1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 5, 3, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 4, 6, 1, 1, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 1, 1, 3, 8 (this is nearly symmetrical, but has some modifications)

In absolute units of 87, or 13.793 cents, from 0 to 87 (the 2/1, or octave):
0, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 23, 25, 28, 29, 31, 36, 39, 40, 42, 44, 45, 47, 51, 57, 58, 59, 62, 64, 66, 68, 70, 73, 74, 75, 76, 79, 87

In relative cents:
96.552, 13.793, 27.586, 13.793, 27.586, 27.587, 27.586, 27.586, 41.379, 13.793, 27.587, 41.379, 13.793, 27.586, 68.966, 41.379, 13.793, 27.586, 27.587, 13.793, 27.586, 55.172, 82.759, 13.793, 13.793, 41.379, 27.587, 27.586, 27.586, 27.586, 41.38, 13.793, 13.793, 13.793, 41.379, 110.345

In absolute cents (This is the easiest way for me to think about it):
0., 96.552, 110.345, 137.931, 151.724, 179.31, 206.897, 234.483, 262.069, 303.448, 317.241, 344.828, 386.207, 400., 427.586, 496.552, 537.931, 551.724, 579.31, 606.897, 620.69, 648.276, 703.448, 786.207, 800., 813.793, 855.172, 882.759, 910.345, 937.931, 965.517, 1006.897, 1020.69, 1034.483, 1048.276, 1089.655

Note that 87 is not a prime, but is divisible by 3, so it gives 400 and 800 cents exactly.

In "conceptual chunks" -- a phrase I just made up right now:
This scale gives close approximations of the following overtone series on the following "roots" or fundamentals: /1, /3, /5, /7, /9, /11, /15, like so:
/1: 1/1, 9/8, 5/4, 11/8, 3/2, 7/4, 15/8, (2/1)

/3: 4/3, 3/2, 5/3, 11/6, 2/1, 7/6, 5/4, (4/3)

/5: 8/5, 9/5, 2/1, 11/10, 6/5, 7/5, 3/2, (8/5)

/7: 8/7, 9/7, 10/7, 11/7, 12/7, 2/1, 15/14, (8/7)

/9: 16/9, 2/1, 10/9, 11/9, 4/3, 14/9, 5/3, (16/9)

/11: 16/11 18/11, 20/11, 2/1, 14/11, 15/11, (16/11)

/15: 16/15, 6/5, 4/3, 22/15, 8/5, no 28/15, (16/15)

There are three slightly-wrong pitches in this list.

427.586 should be 441.41 cents to approximate 9/7

786.207 should be 761.929 to approximate 14/9

1006.897 should be 993.104 to approximate 16/9

I was working on my next piece and noticed something funny -- a few intervals didn't sound right. Fortunately, I wasn't using those pitches in my last pieces, so these errors didn't matter.

But supposing some impressionable young music student were relying on the accuracy of my posts? She'd be doomed.

Because of the way Logic/Lil' Miss Scale Oven work together, every time I tweak the tuning-system, I have to remake every instrument. But that's not so bad, and it insures that each piece will sound a little different from the last one.

Can't stand it when the someone who is wrong on the Internet is me. Hence da bump.
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Old 30th June 2012, 06:47 AM   #30
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https://www.box.com/s/192093ddfaa068cda22c

These drones came out pretty well by themselves, without adding the next layer. This does repay close attention, but it's also slower than molasses.

It sounds a little like when my kid leaves the TV on playing some setup loop for Skyrim or something, but a little more jazzoid-smoky, and even slower. Could be background music for the wolf-lair of Xerx, or something.

Process: Choose series, make array, play each line separately, slow down further using Sound Hack (highs are degraded at this stage), add even more delay, fix one aggressive note using EQ rather than going back into sequence.

Tuning -- 87edo, but again no /7 relationships (so far), so the adjustments I made would have made no difference here.

D#.A#.D..F#.F..A..C..G#.G..E..B..C#.
G..B..A#.D..F#.C#.D#.F..C..A..G#.E..
E..F#.C#.A#.A..F..G#.C..B..D#.G..D..
G#.G..E..B..D#.F#.D..A..F..C#.C..Bb.


over the course of 9+ minutes.
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Old 11th July 2012, 02:04 PM   #31
calebprime
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
https://www.box.com/s/192093ddfaa068cda22c

These drones came out pretty well by themselves, without adding the next layer. This does repay close attention, but it's also slower than molasses.

It sounds a little like when my kid leaves the TV on playing some setup loop for Skyrim or something, but a little more jazzoid-smoky, and even slower. Could be background music for the wolf-lair of Xerx, or something.

Process: Choose series, make array, play each line separately, slow down further using Sound Hack (highs are degraded at this stage), add even more delay, fix one aggressive note using EQ rather than going back into sequence.

Tuning -- 87edo, but again no /7 relationships (so far), so the adjustments I made would have made no difference here.

D#.A#.D..F#.F..A..C..G#.G..E..B..C#.
G..B..A#.D..F#.C#.D#.F..C..A..G#.E..
E..F#.C#.A#.A..F..G#.C..B..D#.G..D..
G#.G..E..B..D#.F#.D..A..F..C#.C..Bb.


over the course of 9+ minutes.
https://www.box.com/s/94ca0ab20b6d882be309

I added a slow string of high notes, and a 3/8 percussion groove, and some bass. Added some compression to the mix, because I wanted to hear the bass pump the other levels a little, so everything would mush together. Result: sort of 9 minutes of Lionking meets Terje Rypdal background music. The whooshy percussion effect was a fun find, using Alchemy. It's probably a little laten the way I have it timed, which makes the tabla drips sound even more early. Perhaps the compression is overdone, and the result is too "in yer face."
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Old 11th July 2012, 02:07 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
https://www.box.com/s/192093ddfaa068cda22c

These drones came out pretty well by themselves, without adding the next layer. This does repay close attention, but it's also slower than molasses.

It sounds a little like when my kid leaves the TV on playing some setup loop for Skyrim or something, but a little more jazzoid-smoky, and even slower. Could be background music for the wolf-lair of Xerx, or something.

Process: Choose series, make array, play each line separately, slow down further using Sound Hack (highs are degraded at this stage), add even more delay, fix one aggressive note using EQ rather than going back into sequence.

Tuning -- 87edo, but again no /7 relationships (so far), so the adjustments I made would have made no difference here.

D#.A#.D..F#.F..A..C..G#.G..E..B..C#.
G..B..A#.D..F#.C#.D#.F..C..A..G#.E..
E..F#.C#.A#.A..F..G#.C..B..D#.G..D..
G#.G..E..B..D#.F#.D..A..F..C#.C..Bb.


over the course of 9+ minutes.
https://www.box.com/s/94ca0ab20b6d882be309

I added a slow string of high notes, and a 3/8 percussion groove, and some bass. Added some compression to the mix, because I wanted to hear the bass pump the other levels a little, so everything would mush together. Result: sort of 9 minutes of Lionking meets Terje Rypdal but only background music. The whooshy percussion effect was a fun find, using Alchemy. It's probably a little late the way I have it timed, which makes the tabla drips sound even more early. Perhaps the compression is overdone, and the result is too "in yer face." Kind of an enjoyable B+ piece, I think, so if I want something really good out of that array, I have to start over.

I'm now calling it Moon River Jig.
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Old 16th July 2012, 06:23 AM   #33
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Some Advice for you, sport

Some advice for you, sport

1) Don't post any more pieces that suck until you've posted something good.

2) If you're confused about trying to combine all these techniques, the answer is simple: Use them in different passages. Don't think of trying to write a passage that is self-similar, microtonal, serial, and tonal-sounding all at once -- that also sounds good. There's your problem right there.

3) There's tons of canned, mediocre music in the world already, no need to write more for your own pleasure. Your stuff should have that quality of being made for love with obsessive effort, and of being unique.

4) No one cares if there is one more clever, gorgeous modernist piece of music in the world. There's enough already and they have more pressing concerns. There's freedom in that. You can't even get arrested.

5) Get out of your harmonic comfort zone.

6) Study the great composers. You've gotten lazy.

7) Practice more, post less.

8) Oh, and the self-similar stuff: It's just a way of stacking the deck, of making self-writing counterpoint. The same effects can be achieved with counterpoint. Don't get too hung up on it.

9) No more ostinatos.

10) eta: oh, and one more thing: "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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Old 30th November 2012, 01:38 PM   #34
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Ok, I've got something I quite like -- as the Brits say -- and I've spent some time with my family. So I can post this. I mean no disrespect, Godfather.

It's just a test to see whether all systems are go, and whether the method I'm using to hit microtones is accurate enough.

Basically this is a big E chord over an Ab-minus-40-cents triad. Or, E is 1/1, and is re-defined as the 13th partial of a low triad. High instruments run and around and play E overtone-series glisses, sort of. Low instruments are holding a triad on /13 and other overtones of this Ab-minus-40-cents. An FM instrument sounds sort of like an elephant.


https://www.box.com/s/7j8277fdtyb51uhvk9ze piece here

Lil' Miss Scale Oven-generated text file of tuning-system is here:

https://www.box.com/s/hlu04o36y9mlam4tj7m0

The automation in Logic makes it possible to do those elephant-like glisses.

All systems go!

This is not even good music, but I'm extremely encouraged by these results, and the fun I'm having, despite Godfather's* admonishments.

By not trying to combine microtonality with my other project -- sort of serial self-similar music -- I'm not tying myself into knots any more.

If anyone wants to talk JI theory, or other theory, lemme know. This thread could be the place for it, or it could be another thread.

*my conscience
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Old 1st December 2012, 12:10 PM   #35
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I do not understand a word of what you are saying, except the part where you say that this is not even good music, but I still liked what I heard very much, and have listened several times... (My Godfather approved as well, a rare moment of accord and harmony.)
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Old 1st December 2012, 12:55 PM   #36
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It's a good idea to tell people what to expect. Even if someone wanted only to listen to microtonal (funny tuning) music, there would be a huge amount to choose from. So I try to explain whether something was the result of a half hour's work or of several years' work. This was a half hour.

Best not to advertise every little piece, or people will completely tune out.

Maybe there are some general lessons for other people who do creative work, if they can translate from Calebprimese into English and then apply to their specific situation.

For me, it goes like this: I'm a little down. Go to a shrink? No, not first thing. First, figure out what I can for myself. My work as a musician is the most important thing to me, so I should look at that first. A doctor isn't going to understand that without months of explanation or insistence on my part. (Exhausting and depressing in itself.) I've had a strong, persistent desire to write music with non-standard tunings (mainly tunings based on the higher primes of the overtone series, like 7,11,13) ever since high school -- and I have done so. My whole life revolves around this, for better or worse. At the same time, I want to have other good things in my music -- not just make microtonal etudes.

So, feeling that my time on earth is limited, I try to put everything I know in a single piece. But the process starts to go wrong. Pretty soon I'm procrastinating, and not having fun. At the same time, I'm dreaming of lost guitars, missing vans with all the band's equipment, muses who will no longer speak to me. All this is a sign: A sign that I've got to simplify.

At the same time, study of the life and work of other people I admire -- such as David Foster Wallace -- can give me clues. He was bored and blocked by trying to write a long novel about the IRS that was supposed to top everything else.

The moral:

Don't put everything in, but rather seek the right balance between some kind of discipline or goal and some kind of spontaneity or fun. Everyone has her own Goldilocks solution to what's just the right amount of discipline, what's the right amount of planning, what turns her on.

Having decided, I need to get to work. Stop worrying.

Having decided to split into two kinds of projects, then, I need to really jam or practice or experiment with just the sounds I'm using, and the effects of the tuning, and the computer program -- Logic Pro something.

Jamming/practicing is like staying fit. It helps if you've done a lot of working out in the past, but you can get flabby and out of shape anyway, if you don't do it all the time.

The effect, for me, is almost instantaneous. I don't need to feel shame because I've failed to do something I've been trying to do for over 30 years. I just need to start bashing on the keyboard, while making mental notes about what works. The effect is the return of fun, of a kind of joy. This isn't like working for the IRS, it's not a jail of my own making. It's what I've always wanted to do.

Set the bar high enough, but not so high that you always fail to clear it. Be kind enough to yourself, but keep trying. Mix thinking with instinct. Pay attention to your own impulses and appetites -- maybe they're a clue, rather than simply something to be overcome or disciplined.

There's something deeply yummy for me about the sound of a good overtone-series chord with an in-tune 11th partial in it.

So do it.

Technically, I've been doing 11-limit Just Intonation for a long time, and so I can work within that, or take some steps beyond it to include some 13 ratios.

11's are in the cracks between piano keys. 13's, too.

Overtone-series chords, to my way of thinking, don't sound as good when you drop the high overtones too low in register: They start to sound ugly. They're more register-specific.

Therefore, it's harder to use them with another completely separate constraint or discipline like basing a piece on a specific sequence of pitches ("serialism"). It seems to me that the very best tuning for that is good old 12-tone, or some other Equal Division of the Octave (EDO) like 17-tone or 19-tone, etc.

Other composers -- bless 'em -- disagree. Often violently.

We don't need to argue, we only need to write what -- in all honesty, after we've stopped kidding ourselves -- sounds good to us.
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Last edited by calebprime; 1st December 2012 at 01:32 PM. Reason: disentangle overtone series and serialism
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Old 4th December 2012, 07:03 AM   #37
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For anyone curious about what Just Intonation ("JI") means, I'm linking to an explanation by Margo Schulter.

http://launch.dir.groups.yahoo.com/g...e&var=1&tidx=1 (You may have to click on "expand messages")

M. Schulter is sort of the Myriad of tuning-discussions: lucid, expert, civil, moderate.

She left the Yahoo tuning-group because of the bickering. I left because of that, and because -- like the Internet everywhere -- some people on that list will condescend to you even if you know what you're doing.

She practices with a 24-pitch scale, and her main interest -- iirc -- is in Renaissance and Arabic music. (Mine is jazz and 20th-century modernist music.)

I'm not really sure if the 87EDO approximation of JI I'm using now has any important advantages over the basically-similar JI tuning I was using before that. If anyone wants to know, I can summarize the reasons for my tuning.
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Old 5th December 2012, 06:50 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
For anyone curious about what Just Intonation ("JI") means, I'm linking to an explanation by Margo Schulter.

http://launch.dir.groups.yahoo.com/g...e&var=1&tidx=1 (You may have to click on "expand messages")

M. Schulter is sort of the Myriad of tuning-discussions: lucid, expert, civil, moderate.

She left the Yahoo tuning-group because of the bickering. I left because of that, and because -- like the Internet everywhere -- some people on that list will condescend to you even if you know what you're doing.

She practices with a 24-pitch scale, and her main interest -- iirc -- is in Renaissance and Arabic music. (Mine is jazz and 20th-century modernist music.)

I'm not really sure if the 87EDO approximation of JI I'm using now has any important advantages over the basically-similar JI tuning I was using before that. If anyone wants to know, I can summarize the reasons for my tuning.
What I've read of the article was interesting; I'll have to go back and finish it.

I've heard theories by tuning experts that Bach used something approximating just tuning rather than equal temperament, and the "crunchiness" that resulted from odd keys such as C# major were an intentional side-effect. Unfortunately, my ear is so attuned to boring old diatonic scales that I have trouble distinguishing the difference between this and equal temperament.
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Old 5th December 2012, 03:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
What I've read of the article was interesting; I'll have to go back and finish it.

I've heard theories by tuning experts that Bach used something approximating just tuning rather than equal temperament, and the "crunchiness" that resulted from odd keys such as C# major were an intentional side-effect. Unfortunately, my ear is so attuned to boring old diatonic scales that I have trouble distinguishing the difference between this and equal temperament.
There are raging controversies on the tuning lists.

Nah, you'd hear the difference, in many cases.

You'd really hear it in the thirds, and sixths. In 12-et, of course, the 5ths (3:2) are only flat by around 2 cents, so one doesn't hear that.

I don't know much about historical tuning, but I think it's correct that Bach used a well-tempered tuning as opposed to an equal one -- a tuning where each key was a lot or a little different from each of the others.

With today's technology, of course, we can have our cake and eat it too -- we can make each key we go to much more in tune than 12-tone equal temperament allows.
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Old 6th December 2012, 01:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
With today's technology, of course, we can have our cake and eat it too -- we can make each key we go to much more in tune than 12-tone equal temperament allows.
Long ago I had the delusion that I could learn to be a piano tuner. The real trick, I soon found out, is to make every interval other than the octave just the right amount OUT of tune.
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