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Tags Russia-Ukraine relations , Ukraine incidents , Ukraine issues , vladimir putin

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Old 10th March 2015, 04:47 AM   #241
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
In which case the claim boils down to "the takeover was planned before it was executed", to which the answer would be: duh.

And the "forced work" was started after and because of the violent putsch whose existence the BBC and their minions ignore as always in their cherry-picked statements of Putin. And I wonder how this matches with the bruhaha the week before with that supersekrit pre-putsch takeover plan that was "leaked"? They just throw every mud they can. Fun to watch.

The documentary will be released March 18. Should be interesting - if not the makers employed by the evil Putler's propaganda machine end up in a Gulag for letting that huge revelation slip, n'est-ce pas.
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Old 10th March 2015, 05:07 AM   #242
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And today's BBC Russia "scoop": How many Russians are fighting in Ukraine?

You guessed it. Managed to top even Kiev claims.

Originally Posted by BBC
"If you don't believe Russia is directly involved in Ukraine now, you'll never believe it," [Ben Hodges] said.

If you still believe anything the BBC puts out on Russia...
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Old 10th March 2015, 06:07 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
And the "forced work" was started after and because of the violent putsch whose existence the BBC and their minions ignore as always in their cherry-picked statements of Putin.
"The parliament of a sovereign country ousted the president of said country, therefore we're going to invade and annex part of it" doesn't really do a whole lot to make Putin look better, you know.

Because I'm pretty fuzzy on how annexing Crimea was supposed to help rescue Yanukovich, considering that it's over five hundred km from Donetsk.
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Old 10th March 2015, 08:46 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
"The parliament of a sovereign country ousted the president of said country, therefore we're going to invade and annex part of it" doesn't really do a whole lot to make Putin look better, you know.

Because I'm pretty fuzzy on how annexing Crimea was supposed to help rescue Yanukovich, considering that it's over five hundred km from Donetsk.
I'm also at a loss as to why you'd prepare sea forces to carry out a rescue where the person to be extracted is no where near water.
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Old 10th March 2015, 09:40 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
What unrest was there in Crimea before 22 February? The protests there didn't start until after Yanukovich was removed (and after Putin's meeting).
The article you're using defines the Crimean crisis as starting after Kiev's government take-over, the protests prior to 22 february are considered part of the (Anti-)Maidan protests. It's how the articles are organized.

In any case, Crimean protests before 22 feb
25 november 2013
8 december 2013
14 december 2013
etc

While technically not in Crimea this also ignores the busloads of Crimeans who before 22 february went to join (counter-)protests in Kiev which was before 22 february the focal point of protests. This includes one bus convoy which on 20 february was carrying Crimean protesters who were stopped and assaulted by pro-Euromaidan activists on their way back to Crimea (see here). Even though most survived and only had to be hospitalized it still caused some unrest upon their return the next day.

Quote:
Looks like straight-up denial, so far.
What is there to deny other than the demonstrably false claim that there wasn't any unrest in Crimea before 22 february?
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Old 10th March 2015, 10:01 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The article you're using defines the Crimean crisis as starting after Kiev's government take-over, the protests prior to 22 february are considered part of the (Anti-)Maidan protests. It's how the articles are organized.

In any case, Crimean protests before 22 feb
25 november 2013
8 december 2013
14 december 2013
etc

What is there to deny other than the demonstrably false claim that there wasn't any unrest in Crimea before 22 february?
Got any numbers for these public protests in Crimea as the pictures don't seem to show large crowds?

Your third link talks of Crimean party leaders meeting with the Russian consul to organise an 'antimaidan' and planning for Russian armed forces to seize control.
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Old 10th March 2015, 10:03 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You consider that "unrest" comparable to what happened post-February 22, and enough for Putin to be forced to plan the invasion and annexation of Crimea? [EDIT: Plus what Aber said about the third link]

Quote:
While technically not in Crimea this also ignores the busloads of Crimeans who before 22 february went to join (counter-)protests in Kiev which was before 22 february the focal point of protests. This includes one bus convoy which on 20 february was carrying Crimean protesters who were stopped and assaulted by pro-Euromaidan activists on their way back to Crimea (see here). Even though most survived and only had to be hospitalized it still caused some unrest upon their return the next day.
Crimeans go to Kyiv to protest, and that justifies invading and annexing Crimea?

Interesting logic.
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Old 10th March 2015, 01:58 PM   #248
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British "non-lethal" aid proves lethal...to the Ukrainian military

Sorry, but
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Old 10th March 2015, 02:03 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
"The parliament of a sovereign country ousted the president of said country, therefore we're going to invade and annex part of it" doesn't really do a whole lot to make Putin look better, you know.

Because I'm pretty fuzzy on how annexing Crimea was supposed to help rescue Yanukovich, considering that it's over five hundred km from Donetsk.

Of course you are. Listen, go back a couple of pages and read what I wrote to jimbob. Same applies to you. I'm not going to go around in circles with you because I can't help you with the reason behind your constant failure to grasp the basic facts which are running contrary to what you read in the propaganda outlets you choose to object yourself to on a daily basis. That's your choice and your choice alone.
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Old 10th March 2015, 02:40 PM   #250
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You mean the bit where you call Brown Moses "Brown Noses" and the BBC, Telegraph and Guardian foreign correspondents "pre$$titutes" and don't actually address the commercially available satellite imagery showing sites of heavy rocket strikes on Ukrainian positions, with scorch marks and tracks consistent with launches from within Russia?
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Old 10th March 2015, 02:57 PM   #251
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RUSI Briefing paper

Briefing Paper: Russian Forces in Ukraine
The Russian military operation against Ukraine has revealed some of the constraints on Russia’s exercise of military power; primarily, its limited capacity to sustain an operation of this size.
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Old 10th March 2015, 06:05 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I find it difficult to believe the Russians are being strained by an operation of this size. If they are, we've got nothing to worry about, frankly.
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Old 10th March 2015, 06:16 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
"The parliament of a sovereign country ousted the president of said country, therefore we're going to invade and annex part of it" doesn't really do a whole lot to make Putin look better, you know.
That depends on the beholder. Some will see him as a man prepared to act in defence of their fellow Russians in Crimea, and at the same time right an historic wrong by bringing Crimea back into the Russian fold. And a man who's not going to apologise for doing it.
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Old 10th March 2015, 06:46 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Gonna be fun to see the Putin fanboys explain away this confession.
Child's play for that crew.
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Old 10th March 2015, 07:31 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That was a very good paper. I have no doubt there are or have been, 3500 to 7500 Russian troops in Ukraine. However the paper did seem to have one small logic problem. If there are an additional 60,000 troops on the Russian border, then this is not a brand new economic cost as the same troops had to be stationed somewhere else anyway.

I think his best point was Nagorno-Karabakh may be hotting up, and so the rational question is how fast Russian foreign policy can end the Ukraine crisis and prepare to move these troops to that region. My gut feeling is that the "writing down" of Ukrainian armour, so as to hinder the Ukrainian army, for a year or two, was possibly a priority.
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Old 10th March 2015, 10:49 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I find it difficult to believe the Russians are being strained by an operation of this size. If they are, we've got nothing to worry about, frankly.
Remember that Russia's GDP in 2014 was about similar to Italy's (about 75% of the UK's), and their defence spending is somewhere from 15-50% greater than the UK (depending on source).

I could believe that the Ukrainian conflict would put a strain on such a military even if it had the manpower
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Old 11th March 2015, 03:12 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Got any numbers for these public protests in Crimea as the pictures don't seem to show large crowds?
Don't have numbers but they weren't particularly large indeed, again at the time the main protests and counter-protests were in Kiev.

Quote:
Your third link talks of Crimean party leaders meeting with the Russian consul to organise an 'antimaidan' and planning for Russian armed forces to seize control.
Yes exactly, not a very "restful" thing to do no?
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Old 11th March 2015, 03:16 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Interesting logic.
Nonsense, you and one other poster have made the false claim that there wasn't any unrest in Crimea before 22 february. When it is shown there was you use a "no true scotsman" going "but that wasn't real unrest" as well as a couple of strawmen arguments about it supposedly "justifying" something. Interesting attempt, but failed.
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Old 11th March 2015, 03:22 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I find it difficult to believe the Russians are being strained by an operation of this size. If they are, we've got nothing to worry about, frankly.
At least part of the problem is the need for secrecy and opacy of the whole thing. If an entire field army went "on leave" at the same time and suffer a few hundred deaths from the same city in that time, the whole secret lid would be blown wide open. It's easier to conceal two deaths per town in twenty towns than forty deaths in one town. It's also much easier to hide movements of many small elements of many units than movements of entire units.

Their operational performance probably also suffers, and may partially explain the unexpectedly severe losses they're suffering. The losses could be actually enormous, up to 3500 soldiers dead and another 7500 missing.

McHrozni
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Old 11th March 2015, 03:25 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Child's play for that crew.
Whatever satisfies you guy's plainly bizarre obsession with Putin we're here to provide.
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Old 11th March 2015, 04:40 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
At least part of the problem is the need for secrecy and opacy of the whole thing. If an entire field army went "on leave" at the same time and suffer a few hundred deaths from the same city in that time, the whole secret lid would be blown wide open. It's easier to conceal two deaths per town in twenty towns than forty deaths in one town. It's also much easier to hide movements of many small elements of many units than movements of entire units.
By many accounts the whole operation is entirely transparent, and even the high end of the RUSI figures is barely divisional strength, not a "field army".

Quote:
Their operational performance probably also suffers, and may partially explain the unexpectedly severe losses they're suffering. The losses could be actually enormous, up to 3500 soldiers dead and another 7500 missing.
Or could be far fewer. In fact, almost certainly are.
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Old 11th March 2015, 04:47 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
An RTA is funny? I bet you get hours of fun by the side of the motorway laughing at he crash victims as they are put in to ambulances.
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Old 11th March 2015, 05:13 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
That was a very good paper. I have no doubt there are or have been, 3500 to 7500 Russian troops in Ukraine. However the paper did seem to have one small logic problem. If there are an additional 60,000 troops on the Russian border, then this is not a brand new economic cost as the same troops had to be stationed somewhere else anyway.
But there is a difference in just having them in barracks and having them on a readiness for action, that costs more.
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Old 11th March 2015, 05:45 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Gonna be fun to see the Putin fanboys explain away this confession.
Looks like they're going for "completely ignore it an hope it goes away", 9/11 truther style.
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Old 11th March 2015, 07:01 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Whatever satisfies you guy's plainly bizarre obsession with Putin we're here to provide.
I'm not obsessed with Vladimir Putin. The habit of his sycophants to parrot Russian propaganda on internet forums is interesting, though.
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Old 11th March 2015, 07:56 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'm not obsessed with Vladimir Putin. The habit of his sycophants to parrot Russian propaganda on internet forums is interesting, though.
If you really want to see something interesting then go through the thread noting which posts bring up Putin and who writes them. Obsession, even negative, doesn't hide itself well.

What's even more interesting is the habit of the Russia-truthers calling facts which debunk their theories "government propaganda" (albeit the Russian government in this case), quite akin to the 9/11 truthers someone brought up.
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Old 11th March 2015, 07:58 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If you really want to see something interesting then go through the thread noting which posts bring up Putin and who writes them. Obsession, even negative, doesn't hide itself well.
"Parrotting Russian propaganda" doesn't require one to "bring up Putin," though, does it?
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Old 11th March 2015, 08:05 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
"Parrotting Russian propaganda" doesn't require one to "bring up Putin," though, does it?
Neither would providing evidence debunking it, does it?
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Old 11th March 2015, 08:08 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Neither would providing evidence debunking it, does it?
No, so why did you bring it up as a response to folks "parroting Russian propaganda?"
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Old 11th March 2015, 08:16 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
No, so why did you bring it up as a response to folks "parroting Russian propaganda?"
I brought it up as a response to people classifying some other people in this thread as "Putin fanboys", who were apparently completely missing the irony in that.
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Old 12th March 2015, 08:42 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
But there is a difference in just having them in barracks and having them on a readiness for action, that costs more.
That's right. The article should have said that.
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Old 12th March 2015, 10:36 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
That's right. The article should have said that.
The RUSI report probably assumed that its target audience would take that as s given.
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Old 12th March 2015, 11:55 PM   #273
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An ex-Prime Minister of Japan, Yukio Hatoyama, has gone out to Crimea to meet with officials there. He's now saying that Japan should drop its sanctions against Russia, and realize that the happy smiley people of Crimea voted to join Russia fair and square.

His brother says Japan should have taken away his passport.
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Old 13th March 2015, 04:04 AM   #274
McHrozni
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Russian foreign reserves dipped by another $6.3 billion in a week.

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/rurefeg:ind

OPEC meeting in June is unlikely to result in oil cuts.

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2015/03/10/o...minister-says/

Russia is facing an ... eventful ... summer and an unusually bleak winter, even by their standards. Unless they let ruble depreciate even further, they'll be out of money by end of 2015 or so.

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Old 13th March 2015, 07:47 AM   #275
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Interesting piece by Robert Parry about Victoria "**** the EU" Nuland's testimony to House and Senate in the tradition of neo-con propaganda: Nuland’s Mastery of Ukraine Propaganda

Originally Posted by Robert Parry
An early skill learned by Official Washington’s neoconservatives, when they were cutting their teeth inside the U.S. government in the 1980s, was how to frame their arguments in the most propagandistic way, so anyone who dared to disagree with any aspect of the presentation seemed unpatriotic or crazy.

During my years at The Associated Press and Newsweek, I dealt with a number of now prominent neocons who were just starting out and mastering these techniques at the knee of top CIA psychological warfare specialist Walter Raymond Jr., who had been transferred to President Ronald Reagan’s National Security Council staff where Raymond oversaw inter-agency task forces that pushed Reagan’s hard-line agenda in Central America and elsewhere.

One of those quick learners was [Nuland's husband] Robert Kagan, who was then a protégé of Assistant Secretary of State Elliott Abrams. [...]
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Old 13th March 2015, 08:29 AM   #276
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The Ukrainian government is spinning this, agreed, and there are several suspicious deaths amongst the supporters of the ousted regime.

However there is very strong evidence of Russian sponsorship of the rebels and fermenting the unrest.

However it is easier to paint Russia as the aggressor when there is a lot of credible evidence showing that Russia is the aggressor.

Childlike Empress, you are well aware of (commercial) satellite photos showing that rocket batteries have struck Ukrainian positions with heavy fire from within Russia. That in itself is sufficient to show that Russia has been fighting an undeclared (limited) war against Ukraine. You don't need any propaganda for that.
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Old 13th March 2015, 12:17 PM   #277
dudalb
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Russian foreign reserves dipped by another $6.3 billion in a week.

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/rurefeg:ind

OPEC meeting in June is unlikely to result in oil cuts.

http://fuelfix.com/blog/2015/03/10/o...minister-says/

Russia is facing an ... eventful ... summer and an unusually bleak winter, even by their standards. Unless they let ruble depreciate even further, they'll be out of money by end of 2015 or so.

McHrozni
I agree, but my big fear is that a worsening economic crisis will cause Vlad to take ever more radicle measures in foreign Policy.
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Old 13th March 2015, 01:16 PM   #278
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The Ukrainian government is spinning this, agreed, and there are several suspicious deaths amongst the supporters of the ousted regime.

Indeed. As of yesterday the number is seven in one month. Even Radio Freedumb has noticed.

Originally Posted by Fort Russ
The seventh "suicide" for the month: [...] ex-governor of Zaporozhzhye region and former member of the Party of Regions, Alexander Peklushenko [...] Earlier, ex-member of the Party of Regions and a former head of the State Property Fund, Mikhail Chechetov [...] the former deputy head of "Ukrzaliznytsia", Nicholai Sergienko, former head of Kharkov regional council, Nikolai Kolesnik, ex-mayor of Melitopol, Sergey Valter, deputy chief of Melitopol police, Sergey Bordyuga, and former MP, Stanislav Melnik.
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Last edited by Childlike Empress; 13th March 2015 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 15th March 2015, 01:41 AM   #279
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Now here is an interesting twist!

Germany has officially joined the conflict on the side of the seperatists!
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...stukraine.html

Welt am Sonntag found more than 100 germans, including former Bundeswehr members fighting among the seperatists.
Since every single russian national among the seps proves russian involvement the same must hold true for germany, no?
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Old 15th March 2015, 03:50 AM   #280
jimbob
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Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Now here is an interesting twist!

Germany has officially joined the conflict on the side of the seperatists!
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...stukraine.html

Welt am Sonntag found more than 100 germans, including former Bundeswehr members fighting among the seperatists.
Since every single russian national among the seps proves russian involvement the same must hold true for germany, no?
When the seperatists are using equipment that is only available to the German military and when heavy weapons fire at Ukrainian positions from German land, then you will have a point.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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