ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Russia-Ukraine relations , Ukraine incidents , Ukraine issues , vladimir putin

Reply
Old 15th March 2015, 05:09 AM   #281
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
When the seperatists are using equipment that is only available to the German military and when heavy weapons fire at Ukrainian positions from German land, then you will have a point.
Did you just raise the bar for proof of russian involvement?
So Poroshenko waving passports around in munich is no longer enough proof?
Now we need weapons that are exclusive to the current russian army? I don't think we have any of that. One guy last summer claimed that a type of tank seen in eastern ukraine was non export built in russia, but it turned out the factory building those is actually in east ukraine.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 05:41 AM   #282
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,581
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Did you just raise the bar for proof of russian involvement?
So Poroshenko waving passports around in munich is no longer enough proof?
Now we need weapons that are exclusive to the current russian army? I don't think we have any of that. One guy last summer claimed that a type of tank seen in eastern ukraine was non export built in russia, but it turned out the factory building those is actually in east ukraine.
Not really. The German government is as is EU well declared for the ukraine government and peace treaty. Russia has been nipping and bitting at part of ukraine for some time, ahs been caught giving h advanced equipment, with artillery fired from russia's territory and have russia military as advisor, .


If it was the only last part you would have a point but the rest make it quite evident you are trying to poison the well.


The only likely explanation at this point if the info is verified is that a few german people decided on their own to go there.

I am amazed at the length some of you go to defend russia here.

That has to be on par with 9/11 truther.
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 06:39 AM   #283
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Not really. The German government is as is EU well declared for the ukraine government and peace treaty. Russia has been nipping and bitting at part of ukraine for some time, ahs been caught giving h advanced equipment, with artillery fired from russia's territory and have russia military as advisor, .


If it was the only last part you would have a point but the rest make it quite evident you are trying to poison the well.


The only likely explanation at this point if the info is verified is that a few german people decided on their own to go there.

I am amazed at the length some of you go to defend russia here.

That has to be on par with 9/11 truther.
Germany is on ukraines side?
They are against the US delivering weapons to Ukraine.
They accused NATO of spewing dangerous propaganda.
They are against further sanctions.
Sure, they *say* that they want Minsk II to succeed, but so do the russians
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 06:43 AM   #284
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 15,849
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Germany is on ukraines side?
They are against the US delivering weapons to Ukraine.
They accused NATO of spewing dangerous propaganda.
They are against further sanctions.
Sure, they *say* that they want Minsk II to succeed, but so do the russians
Where does Germany they get their natural gas supply?
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 06:48 AM   #285
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,479
Sooner or later individual members of NATO will start arming Ukraine. Norway and Canada can only gain from Russian gas shenanegans. Sure Germany may oppose it, and NATO may not do anything as an alliance, but it's members are still soverign and can assist Ukraine if they so desire.

McHrozni
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 07:19 AM   #286
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Where does Germany they get their natural gas supply?
So you too doubt that the german fighters are all "volunteers" on "vacation"?
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 08:58 AM   #287
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 15,849
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
So you too doubt that the german fighters are all "volunteers" on "vacation"?
How many German fighters were in Crimea?
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 09:37 AM   #288
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
How many German fighters were in Crimea?
I don't think any where needed. Turns out the russians had a secret base in sevastopol.

And it isn't even illegal for germans to fight in the donbass! They can't fight for ISIS because that is a terrorist organisation.
Die Welt is openly speculating that the german government doesn't want to designate the seperatists as such, since you need those guys to negotiate!
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...e-sterben.html

German media performed quite a 180 in the past few weeks. If you guys could read german your heads would explode.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 09:48 AM   #289
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 22,637
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Sooner or later individual members of NATO will start arming Ukraine. Norway and Canada can only gain from Russian gas shenanegans. Sure Germany may oppose it, and NATO may not do anything as an alliance, but it's members are still soverign and can assist Ukraine if they so desire.

McHrozni
Really? And what would they expect to get from arming Ukraine?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 11:06 AM   #290
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,723
I'd guess that the Germans are from eastern Prussia. |)
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 11:26 AM   #291
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,479
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Really? And what would they expect to get from arming Ukraine?
A muzzled, perhaps even castrated Russia for starters?

Norway in particular could also benefit from a fallout in Russian oil and gas exports.

McHrozni
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 12:23 PM   #292
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 15,849
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
I don't think any where needed. Turns out the russians had a secret base in sevastopol.

And it isn't even illegal for germans to fight in the donbass! They can't fight for ISIS because that is a terrorist organisation.
Die Welt is openly speculating that the german government doesn't want to designate the seperatists as such, since you need those guys to negotiate!
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...e-sterben.html

German media performed quite a 180 in the past few weeks. If you guys could read german your heads would explode.
Where does Germany get their natural gas?
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 01:00 PM   #293
caveman1917
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,224
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Where does Germany get their natural gas?
If that is supposed to make a point you'll have to specify which one.

1. Other than Ukraine no country has recognized the DPR/LPR as terrorist organizations. Does the entire world get their natural gas from Russia?

2. The German media made a U-turn in the past weeks. Did they only start getting their natural gas from Russia a couple of weeks ago?

3. Volunteers from among the following countries are fighting on the seperatists' side
Originally Posted by wiki
International Battalions - Includes Russian, Chechen, Greek, Ossetian, Polish, Hungarian, Serbian, Latvian, Belarusian, Uzbek, French, Italian, Spanish, Armenian and other volunteers
are they all there to safeguard their countries' natural gas supplies?

That exhausts the points made in the post you quoted, to none of which the natural gas supply even seems relevant.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 02:54 PM   #294
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,884
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
German media performed quite a 180 in the past few weeks. If you guys could read german your heads would explode.

I wouldn't go that far but they obviously jumped on the brakes mightily.

The top story on the main late evening news ("Tagesthemen") just minutes ago was about one of the German fighters, a 23 year old who claimed to be there to protect the families targeted by Ukrop shelling, and the initial motive to go there was given as - wait for it: that his cousin was killed in MH17.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 03:02 PM   #295
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,884
btw, there's a new full-length (45min) German documentary about the Odessa Trade Union Building massacre of May 2, 2014 - and the quality is something you would like to finance with your tax payer money. But it was crowd-funded. English subtitles.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

The question the film leaves open due to professionalism is not if a fascist mob murdered a couple of dozen people in a rampage, but if it was ordered from above. Provides some useful pre- and post-context as well.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 03:04 PM   #296
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 15,849
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
If that is supposed to make a point you'll have to specify which one.

1. Other than Ukraine no country has recognized the DPR/LPR as terrorist organizations. Does the entire world get their natural gas from Russia?

2. The German media made a U-turn in the past weeks. Did they only start getting their natural gas from Russia a couple of weeks ago?

3. Volunteers from among the following countries are fighting on the seperatists' side

are they all there to safeguard their countries' natural gas supplies?

That exhausts the points made in the post you quoted, to none of which the natural gas supply even seems relevant.
I have a soon-to-be sister-in-law in Poland. Fear of disrupting the natural gas supply factors highly there with regards to Russian relations.
__________________
"Realize deeply that the present moment is all you ever have." (Eckhart Tolle, 2004)
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th March 2015, 04:03 PM   #297
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,651
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
How many German fighters were in Crimea?
Quite a few from 1941 to 1944....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 03:22 AM   #298
caveman1917
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,224
Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I have a soon-to-be sister-in-law in Poland. Fear of disrupting the natural gas supply factors highly there with regards to Russian relations.
Probably, but it doesn't seem to explain any of the specific points that were raised in the post you responded to with it.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th March 2015, 11:22 AM   #299
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,884
Seems like there's a mini revolution happening in Konstantinovka, a town just outside the "DPR" which is occupied/protected by Kiev, after a drunken APC driver accidently ran over a mother and her two children, killing one kid immediately and the mother just died in hospital. This could well escalate if the army uses force and the "Novorussians" feel like they need to provide help.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2015, 06:00 AM   #300
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,884
Hilarious: EU Desperately Instructs Debaltseve Who Is Bad Guy

Originally Posted by Jennifer Cohagen
I started this blog to combat the sorry job mainstream media was doing covering events in Ukraine. Today is no exception, I’ll be covering one of the worst examples of MM spin I’ve read to date. The article is in regards to massive amounts of civilian casualties being counted in Debaltseve, put out by BNE Intellinews.

BNE sent reporters to Debaltseve. The people there gave eyewitness accounts of Ukraine army destroying their homes, shelling civilians, squarely placing the blame of the high number of deaths on Ukraine’s shoulders.

BNE then does its best to explain how delusional these eye-witnesses must be, and try to explain away their reports with excuses such as they’re simply traumatized, or they must be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, or they didn’t fully watch the entire battle, only parts of it, they spent a long time in bomb shelters, so they don’t have a fully accurate accounting of what went on. I kid you not. [...]
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2015, 10:10 AM   #301
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,093
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post

Hilarious: Blogger who has not been to the area, feels it is logical that Ukranian forces shelled the city they were occupying. Cites a sentence in a multi page article dealing with political/economic aspects of the Ukrainian Civil War.

As to why the residents might blame the UKrainian Army - if they weren't here, we wouldn't get shelled, seems as logical as "the army occupying our city is shelling us"
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2015, 11:23 AM   #302
caveman1917
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,224
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
As to why the residents might blame the UKrainian Army - if they weren't here, we wouldn't get shelled, seems as logical as "the army occupying our city is shelling us"
Hilarious: Forum poster who has never been there pretends that witnesses saying things like "we were here and saw it with our own eyes" and "we saw how their tanks fired on houses directly" are doing something else than giving direct eye-witness accounts to keep his own narrative alive.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2015, 11:33 AM   #303
Blaster
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Hilarious: Forum poster who has never been there pretends that witnesses saying things like "we were here and saw it with our own eyes" and "we saw how their tanks fired on houses directly" are doing something else than giving direct eye-witness accounts to keep his own narrative alive.
Let's just agree that no one is allowed to speak on the subject unless they were physically there. Also, a subset of this practice should mandate that all accounts of "on the ground reporting" are to be believed without question.

Last edited by Blaster; 18th March 2015 at 11:35 AM.
Blaster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2015, 11:42 AM   #304
caveman1917
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,224
Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
Let's just agree that no one is allowed to speak on the subject unless they were physically there. Also, a subset of this practice should mandate that all accounts of "on the ground reporting" are to be believed without question.
I was doing the "not having been there" thing as part of the meme that was developing. My main point is that the poster I responded to was misrepresenting the witness accounts as if they weren't stating what they directly saw but giving some sort of conclusion that they reached by thinking about it.

ETA: let's agree that no one is allowed to misrepresent the statements in the sources given, that would at least get us somewhere.

Last edited by caveman1917; 18th March 2015 at 11:43 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th March 2015, 11:50 AM   #305
caveman1917
Suspended
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,224
As for the credibility, if witness accounts accusing the Ukrainian army of shelling appear in a pro-Ukrainian outlet with the author then doing some popular psychology salto's to try to explain it away then that gives some credence that the statements have indeed been spoken by his interlocutors.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 04:53 AM   #306
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,479
An interesting analysis of Crimea, one year on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...for-Putin.html

Within two years, Crimeans will yearn for the great times under Ukraine. They may never admit it, but it is by now inevitable.

McHrozni
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 05:33 AM   #307
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,479
Russia burned through another $5 billion in a single week.

http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/rurefeg:ind

McHrozni
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 07:56 AM   #308
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,884
Here's the real reason why western pre$$titutes are so negative in their reporting about Crimea one year after reunification:

Quote:
16. The reduction in crime levels is not in the least part due to stringent measures for regulating the alcohol market. The ban on selling booze during the night hours sharply reduced the number of drunks on the streets and the number of crimes associated with alcohol abuse. The difficulties of obtaining a license for selling alcohol sharply reduced the number of outlets where it is possible to buy anything stronger than beer. The road police officers take much fewer bribes now, and correspondingly it got much harder for drivers to avoid responsibility.

__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 09:17 AM   #309
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,479
Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here's the real reason why western pre$$titutes are so negative in their reporting about Crimea one year after reunification:

Protip, anyone opening with:

1. Crimea stopped being a part of Ukraine and became a part of Russia. I wished for this event for many years, so here my dream simply came true. Those people whose dreams come true must understand very well how this feels like.


is not a credible source on the topic

Take care

McHrozni
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 10:32 AM   #310
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,700
British Army advisers arrived in Ukraine, training Combat Medics to startwith.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 10:43 AM   #311
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,723
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Protip, anyone opening with:



1. Crimea stopped being a part of Ukraine and became a part of Russia. I wished for this event for many years, so here my dream simply came true. Those people whose dreams come true must understand very well how this feels like.




is not a credible source on the topic



Take care



McHrozni
Heh.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 11:30 AM   #312
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,651
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
British Army advisers arrived in Ukraine, training Combat Medics to startwith.
I am betting that very quietly, the US Greenie Beanies are also advising the Ukrainians.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 12:59 PM   #313
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,988
Article from the BBC

How many Russians are fighting in Ukraine?

Quote:
The evidence of the Kremlin's direct military involvement can be gleaned from many different types of sources:
Russian mainstream and social media
reporters on the ground
Ukrainian media
analysis of freely available satellite imagery by citizen journalists
information released by the US and its Nato allies

For those distrustful of the Pentagon or Western intelligence agencies, you can set their information entirely aside.

Indeed, there may be some reasons (such as not wanting the diplomatic damage involved in directly labelling the Russian moves an invasion) why Western leaders may have held back when describing the Kremlin's action.
Quote:
This effort has been so great, he argues, that, "it is obvious that there insufficient resources... to sustain military operations at the current level for over a year".

This intervention evolved in several phases:
initially deniable, in the summer of 2014, with perhaps a few hundred special forces organising locals and Russian volunteers
large-scale escalation, during August 2014, when several Russian regular army battalion tactical groups (numbering up to 1,000 each) were sent in to save the separatists from defeat by the Ukrainian military
a period of withdrawal and retrenchment, late in 2014, following September's Minsk ceasefire agreement, in which Russian troop numbers dropped
the reintroduction of several formed battalions and numerous specialist troops during renewed fighting, this January and February, allowing the capture of Debaltseve and a good deal of other territory from the Ukrainians

A journalist from the Russian newspaper Kommersant met several young Russian soldiers in Debaltseve who told him they had come from the same mechanised infantry unit after commanders appealed for volunteers.
<snip>

Quote:
President Barack Obama and his team have long sought to avoid painting themselves into a corner over Ukraine, for example by labelling the Russian action "an invasion", something that might suggest tougher action was needed against President Vladimir Putin.

But the odd thing is that the most compelling evidence that his army is bearing the brunt of the fighting against the Ukrainian government is now coming from Russian reporters or the mothers of dead soldiers rather than the West.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2015, 01:10 PM   #314
Childlike Empress
Ewige Blumenkraft
 
Childlike Empress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Ivory Tower
Posts: 14,884
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Article from the BBC

That's the same article I posted nine days ago, based on the "study" you posted later that day.
__________________
De-Putin-Nazify America!
...progress updates [1] [2] [...] [5]...
Childlike Empress is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2015, 03:16 AM   #315
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,479
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am betting that very quietly, the US Greenie Beanies are also advising the Ukrainians.
Why quietly?

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/...305-story.html

300 US instructors arrived in Ukraine a few weeks ago, to train 4 companies of Ukraine national guard. Make what you will of that, but my guess is that losses of Russian armor in Ukraine will skyrocket come June.

McHrozni
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2015, 08:36 AM   #316
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
British Army advisers arrived in Ukraine, training Combat Medics to startwith.


Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Why quietly?

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/...305-story.html

300 US instructors arrived in Ukraine a few weeks ago, to train 4 companies of Ukraine national guard. Make what you will of that, but my guess is that losses of Russian armor in Ukraine will skyrocket come June.

McHrozni
A blatant violation of point 10 of the minsk agreement, btw.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2015, 12:50 PM   #317
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 12,547
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
A blatant violation of point 10 of the minsk agreement, btw.
So... are instructors armed groups, mercenaries or weapons?
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2015, 01:25 PM   #318
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,651
Originally Posted by timhau View Post
So... are instructors armed groups, mercenaries or weapons?
Only Putin should be allowed to violate the agreement....

Once again, it's amusing to see Militant Lefties embrace Vlad and his right wing followers....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2015, 01:36 PM   #319
magellan
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 670
Originally Posted by timhau View Post
So... are instructors armed groups, mercenaries or weapons?
They are members of a foreign armed formation.
Also it's not weapons, it's military equipment. I am fairly certain military vehicles are military equipment too.
magellan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2015, 02:25 PM   #320
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 12,547
Oh, instructors are vehicles?
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:32 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.