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Tags crickets , Cuba conspiracies , Cuba incidents , mass hysteria , psychogenic illness , sonic weapons , US-Cuba relations

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Old 18th September 2017, 07:05 AM   #41
JJM 777
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My theory is a Conspiracy Theory, sort of.

Anti-Cuban political forces in USA were outraged when Obama opened an embassy in Cuba. They want the relations to cool down. They could simply have Donald Trump close the embassy without any reason whatsoever. Just because blah blah. But someone wants a "reason". Then a reason is created. Usually US-fabricated "reasons" to punish any country are very different in nature. Why would they resort to a story as bizarre as this, Idunno. But nevertheless, my theory is that CIA is either behind the fake story, or with some technology behind the symptoms. Motive: To get a pretext for closing down the embassy, which the dark smiling guy unfortunately opened. Possible techniques: Find staff that have weird health disorders, and send them to Cuba. Or ask CIA agents to describe weird health disorders, which they actually don't have, it is just stories that their superiors told them to tell, as a service to their country. Or the least likely explanation: CIA has a method of producing these effects, without anyone else being able to detect the method. Mix small blue pills in the morning coffee of the staff?

Last edited by JJM 777; 18th September 2017 at 07:08 AM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 07:26 AM   #42
abaddon
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sick building syndrome.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:13 AM   #43
dann
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It doesn't seem to fit the symptoms: "Most of the complainants report relief soon after leaving the building." Also not centered on the bed.


Has the gender of the afflicted been mentioned anywhere?
Quote:
An evolutionary psychology explanation for conversion disorder is that the symptoms may have been evolutionarily advantageous during warfare. A non-combatant with these symptoms signals non-verbally, possibly to someone speaking a different language, that she or he is not dangerous as a combatant and also may be carrying some form of dangerous infectious disease. This can explain that conversion disorder may develop following a threatening situation, that there may be a group effect with many people simultaneously developing similar symptoms (as in mass psychogenic illness), and the gender difference in prevalence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conver...sorder#History
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:17 AM   #44
dann
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
My theory is a Conspiracy Theory, sort of.
Yes, it is!
Motive? Yes, definitely1), but apart from that …

1) I mean, who wouldn't object to this?
Quote:
During its first decade in power, the Castro government introduced a wide range of progressive social reforms. Laws were introduced to provide equality for black Cubans and greater rights for women, while there were attempts to improve communications, medical facilities, health, housing, and education. In addition, there were touring cinemas, art exhibitions, concerts, and theatres. By the end of the 1960s, all Cuban children were receiving some education (compared with less than half before 1959), unemployment and corruption were reduced, and great improvements were made in hygiene and sanitation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_...ationalization
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th September 2017 at 09:22 AM. Reason: To add links to the book Psywar on Cuba & Wikipedia
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:20 AM   #45
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Mass psychogenic illness, maybe?

Quote:
Mass psychogenic illness (MPI), also called mass sociogenic illness or just sociogenic illness,[1] is "the rapid spread of illness signs and symptoms affecting members of a cohesive group, originating from a nervous system disturbance involving excitation, loss, or alteration of function, whereby physical complaints that are exhibited unconsciously have no corresponding organic" cause.[2] MPI is distinct from other collective delusions, also included under the blanket terms of mass hysteria, in that MPI causes symptoms of disease, though there is no organic cause.

There is a clear preponderance of female victims.[1] The DSM-IV-TR does not have specific diagnosis for this condition but the text describing conversion disorder states that "In 'epidemic hysteria', shared symptoms develop in a circumscribed group of people following 'exposure' to a common precipitant."
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:34 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or a reported hearing loss after they've heard all their colleagues talking about hearing loss.
Exactly. How does a doctor verify 'hearing loss' independent of the patients reporting?

Normal hearing tests use tones where the patient raises their hand when they can hear it. To really determine it, they'd have to look at how the brain itself responds to sound, independent of what the person says they can/cannot hear.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:43 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or a reported hearing loss after they've heard all their colleagues talking about hearing loss.
Why is there this desperate need to discredit reports by the employees' own union? There are U.S. embassies in almost every country in the world, including numerous hellholes and multiple war zones. Havana would be an easy gig, combining the prestige of opening an important new embassy with the comfort of a tropical island and the close proximity to home. Staffers can fly back to the U.S. every weekend if they feel like it. Why would they imagine something like this in Cuba, but not Iraq, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Angola, Venezuela, etc., etc.?

And at least one Canadian diplomat reported similar symptoms. What's his/her motive?
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:49 AM   #48
dann
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Exactly. How does a doctor verify 'hearing loss' independent of the patients reporting?

Normal hearing tests use tones where the patient raises their hand when they can hear it. To really determine it, they'd have to look at how the brain itself responds to sound, independent of what the person says they can/cannot hear.
I'm not so sure. I think that it would take a lot of training to be able to fake loss of hearing. When I was tested as part of conscription by the Danish army back in the mid 1980s (when I wasn't nearly as hard of hearing as I am now: I was deemed fully able to serve!), they seemed to be convinced that I wasn't faking my deficient hearing even though I didn't try to hide the fact that I didn't want to join the army under any circumstances.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:55 AM   #49
dann
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why would they imagine something like this in Cuba, but not Iraq, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Angola, Venezuela, etc., etc.?
Mass hysteria is almost always limited to "affecting members of a cohesive group" (Stacko's quotation above)

Quote:
And at least one Canadian diplomat reported similar symptoms. What's his/her motive?
How similar? Loss of hearing? Remember: Me too! But I don't think that the Cubans had anything to do with it in my case.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th September 2017 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
That link led me to this: Hysterical Contagion which seems to fit the events.

Quote:
In social psychology, hysterical contagion occurs when people in a group show signs of a physical problem or illness, when in reality there are psychological and social forces at work.
Hysterical contagion is a strong form of emotional contagion, which describes the copycat effect of imitative behaviour based on the power of suggestion and word of mouth influence.
In 1977 Frieda L. Gehlen offered a revised theory of hysterical contagion that argues that what is actually contagious is the belief that showing certain characteristics will "entitle one to the secondary benefits of the sick role."[1] It may be an unconscious decision on the part of the individual.
So, are there secondary benefits here? Yes!
In addition to the caring attention, there is a transfer back to the US, time off, potential disability checks, and even just the importance of being 'chosen'. Any others you can think of?

Undoubtedly, some of those 'affected' are simply opportunists. (even if the attacks had merit!)
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:04 AM   #51
dann
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Mass psychogenic illness, maybe?
"There is a clear preponderance of female victims."
However, remember the case of 600 men (or maybe only 119) in San Diego, 1988.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 18th September 2017 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:08 AM   #52
dann
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
That link led me to this: So, are there secondary benefits here? Yes!
That would depend very much on your career plans and ambitions!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:18 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why is there this desperate need to discredit reports by the employees' own union? There are U.S. embassies in almost every country in the world, including numerous hellholes and multiple war zones. Havana would be an easy gig, combining the prestige of opening an important new embassy with the comfort of a tropical island and the close proximity to home. Staffers can fly back to the U.S. every weekend if they feel like it. Why would they imagine something like this in Cuba, but not Iraq, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Angola, Venezuela, etc., etc.?

And at least one Canadian diplomat reported similar symptoms. What's his/her motive?
It could have happened in any embassy where such an attack seemed plausible. If the first reports are taken seriously, the others follow.
The rest are more like a placebo effect when the phenomena is given some credibility.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That would depend very much on your career plans and ambitions!
True. I posted yesterday "They will find the source to be a lower level staffer with no prospects for advancement. "

The top diplomats, such as the Ambassador, are unlikely to be one of the affected.

That's my prediction anyway!!
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:38 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
So, are there secondary benefits here? Yes!
In addition to the caring attention, there is a transfer back to the US, time off, potential disability checks, and even just the importance of being 'chosen'. Any others you can think of?

Undoubtedly, some of those 'affected' are simply opportunists. (even if the attacks had merit!)

People join the Foreign Service -- and getting in isn't easy -- because they want to do the work. It's a prestigious job, and the people sent to Havana would be among the most experienced in the State Dept. Nobody got there by accident. Anybody who wants to get out can find a better job -- or at least an easier job -- elsewhere in government or private industry pretty much any day of any week.

And if all these people are faking or imagining their symptoms for selfish motives, why would doctors and senior bosses, including the Secretary of State and the President, support them and even consider changing U.S. policy because of them?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/17/u...a-embassy.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-u-s...ealth-attacks/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/some-u-...-records-show/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/w...s-illness.html

Last edited by Bob001; 18th September 2017 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:00 AM   #56
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Psychology Today medical sociologist weighs in:

Quote:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and so far, the American government has failed to provide any concrete evidence. []
Based on the scant information that has been disclosed thus far, it is very possible that the symptoms are psychogenic in nature, as most of the complaints are headaches and dizziness. The claims do not make logical sense. [] There have been many documented cases in the mass hysteria literature of so-called ‘sick buildings’ that have supposedly caused outbreaks of illness, that turn out to be psychological. The human mind can play tricks on itself, especially in the wake of rumors and conspiracy claims.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:12 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The "news media" isn't pulling stuff out of thin air. Foreign Service officers belong to a professional association/union, and that group sounded the first alarms. Injuries like hearing loss and brain injury can be measured objectively. And there's some evidence that they were injured in their homes, not in the office. At least one Canadian diplomat was also affected.
https://www.voanews.com/a/us-diploma...a/4012333.html
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/01/politi...cks/index.html

There's no reason to think that this isn't real. Who's responsible is a different question.
There are plenty of reasons to think this is hysteria. Hysteria is a real thing and having experience with it I can tell you the evidence in this case has not yet been confirmed beyond people believing something is wrong with them.

Hysteria need not only occur to people in a single location. The mold hysteria went on in multiple buildings.

Show me the medical reports documenting consistent significant clinical findings in these people and I'll reassess my position.

I've gone through this more than once. In one case a lot of employees complained of a rash, scratchy throats and headaches in one hospital department. So we started an investigation. Not one person had an actual rash. People would point to normal skin and say they saw a rash. No one had actual throat inflammation. People do that, hysteria is a real phenomena.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 18th September 2017 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:18 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That's true; but in this instance there's the added note that the sound returned when they stepped back within the immediate area of their beds.

There's also the matter of some medically-verifiable long term symptoms the alleged victims have suffered. The actual, apparently permanent, hearing degradation some of them have experienced may typically accompany tinnitus (I don't know); but it was reported that some of the alleged victims, including one of the Canadians, were diagnosed with mild traumatic brain injury (i.e., concussions, or something that presented like a concussion). I don't think tinnitus could do that a person.

It's my understanding, though, that some things which are capable of causing concussions, can also cause tinnitus.
Link to these medical reports?

As for hearing loss, you'd have to rule out aging and other causes of tinnitus.

I understand how real this sounds to people. The reporters were convinced and wrote the articles with that conviction. That doesn't make it real.

I'm sticking with 1% chance this is more than hysteria.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:27 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Probably not, but a hearing test could be a routine part of an employment physical. And the issue for many of these people is hearing loss.
No it isn't. It depends on what the medical clearance is for. Fire fighters get hearing tests because they are exposed to loud noise. Nurses don't. I don't know why a diplomat would need a hearing test.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:34 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why is there this desperate need to discredit reports by the employees' own union? ...
Well that's a loaded assumption.

I don't have a desperate need, I have medical and occupational health experience and knowledge.

You have news reports and people who believe they have symptoms.
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Old 18th September 2017, 10:39 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Mass hysteria is almost always limited to "affecting members of a cohesive group" (Stacko's quotation above)....
The definition of a "cohesive group" may not be as confined and homogenous as you think.

Mold Hysteria: Origin of the Hoax
Quote:
Over time, there appeared to be no limit to claims of building related illness, and it was “reported” that almost any kind of clinical symptom, real or imaginary, could be blamed on indoor environments. As society became more and more litigious, many of these disorders were erroneously played out in courtrooms rather than medical offices, creating a circus atmosphere surrounding this class of disorders. With the advent of the internet, as well as other advances in telecommunications, these issues eventually became part of a media frenzy, and all truths could be thrown out the window as issues became more and more decided upon by emotions and unfounded beliefs, rather than scientific data and logical thinking.
Science Versus Hysteria
Quote:
Mold can be deadly–if you eat enough of it or if your immune system is compromised. But there’s no reliable evidence that people are getting seriously ill from inhaling the stuff.

Some molds produce mycotoxins, unavoidable contaminants found in foods such as peanuts, corn and wine. They are also nonvolatile molecules that can’t float freely in the air. So to get into a human’s lungs, they have to ride on mold spores or dust particles. It would take a lot of those spores to make you sick.

A 2004 study in the International Journal of Toxicology concluded that even at 200,000 spores per cubic meter–more than most people could tolerate because of the smell and reduced visibility–a person couldn’t inhale enough toxins associated with Stachybotrys chartarum (black mold) in a 24-hour period to get sick. Exposures to other mycotoxins were at tiny fractions of the levels known to cause effects in humans and animals. “People are exposed to mycotoxins every day,” says Daniel Sudakin, a toxicologist and mold expert at Oregon State University who has testified for the defense in one mold case. “But they are present at very low concentrations that don’t harm us.”
To this day people believe mold in your walls is deadly. There are mold abatement companies. People have won lawsuits, buildings torn down.

Yet the evidence of harm is seriously lacking.

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Old 18th September 2017, 10:51 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
People join the Foreign Service -- and getting in isn't easy -- because they want to do the work. It's a prestigious job, and the people sent to Havana would be among the most experienced in the State Dept. Nobody got there by accident. Anybody who wants to get out can find a better job -- or at least an easier job -- elsewhere in government or private industry pretty much any day of any week.

And if all these people are faking or imagining their symptoms for selfish motives, why would doctors and senior bosses, including the Secretary of State and the President, support them and even consider changing U.S. policy because of them?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/17/u...a-embassy.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/top-u-s...ealth-attacks/
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/some-u-...-records-show/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/w...s-illness.html
Why would senior bosses believe? Because people believe this stuff.

As for the doctors, I think you'd have to look at the specifics. If a patient comes in and tells me all their symptoms, I'm not going to report the patient was lying. And they probably aren't. The medical history I write up will list all their reported symptoms. Then I'll note clinical findings. I may or may not make a diagnosis but the way medical billing is today, you must put something down in order to be reimbursed. So I might code the visit as hearing loss even though it is only a subjective complaint.

I currently have an undiagnosed autoimmune condition. My mouth is inflamed. One of my doctors coded it as gingivitis which caused the insurer to reject the claim calling it dental. It's not dental, it's autoimmune. It's not just the gingiva, it's my entire mouth: tongue, throat, lips, palate and gingiva. I have other symptoms as well. It took the physician changing the coding and talking to the insurer to get it straightened out. In the meantime, I don't have a diagnosis, no one knows what it is.

Bottom line, you don't know what those doctors really found unless you look more closely.
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:17 AM   #63
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The big question remains as to why the US Gov't is playing up these 'attacks' and making actual changes against Cuba without evidence? Does it serve some purpose?
Maybe it does. See this NY Times article from last November.

Quote:
Even some Obama administration officials concede that the thaw is highly vulnerable to reversal because much of it has been accomplished through (Obama) executive action. Mr. Trump could, for example, order the State Department to review its decision last year to remove Cuba from the list of state sponsors of terrorism, or suspend diplomatic relations that were resumed last summer with the opening of embassies in Havana and Washington.

But Josh Earnest, the White House press secretary, argued on Monday that Mr. Trump would have a hard time reversing a policy that had already yielded business deals and benefited the people of both countries. There will soon be 110 daily flights from the United States to Cuba, he noted, not to mention the investments by cruise, tour and hotel operators to prepare for those visits.
I can almost see the logic of using the story to threaten a roll back and obtain a better deal with Cuba - or revert back totally. But isn't it terribly risky to use a conspiracy theory that doesn't make sense for this purpose?

Last edited by Sherkeu; 18th September 2017 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:30 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Exactly. How does a doctor verify 'hearing loss' independent of the patients reporting?

Normal hearing tests use tones where the patient raises their hand when they can hear it. To really determine it, they'd have to look at how the brain itself responds to sound, independent of what the person says they can/cannot hear.
It's simpler than that. Unless they had a hearing test prior to their posting there would be no way to objectively determine if the hearing loss happened during the posting, or indeed if there had even been a hearing lost.
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:35 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why is there this desperate need to discredit reports by the employees' own union? There are U.S. embassies in almost every country in the world, including numerous hellholes and multiple war zones. Havana would be an easy gig, combining the prestige of opening an important new embassy with the comfort of a tropical island and the close proximity to home. Staffers can fly back to the U.S. every weekend if they feel like it. Why would they imagine something like this in Cuba, but not Iraq, Afghanistan, Zimbabwe, Angola, Venezuela, etc., etc.?

And at least one Canadian diplomat reported similar symptoms. What's his/her motive?
What desperate need to discredit? I'm just being skeptical of something we have scant knowledge of and of something for that would require an unknown mechanism.
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:38 AM   #66
Sherkeu
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's simpler than that. Unless they had a hearing test prior to their posting there would be no way to objectively determine if the hearing loss happened during the posting, or indeed if there had even been a hearing lost.
You're right.
I had been interpreting the one claim of 'permanent hearing loss' to mean someone became deaf, which you could test with the brain, but that isn't really what it means. Any level of hearing loss could be labeled as 'permanent'.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:26 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The definition of a "cohesive group" may not be as confined and homogenous as you think.
I don't think that the definition is "confined and homogenous."
In Denmark there has been widespread distrust of the HPV vaccine - probably due to girls from all regions of the country meeting online and persuading each other that their various symptoms (in some cases real) were caused by the vaccine. (Very similar to the autism scare.) One of the doctors, now retired, who sided with them is convinced that they couldn't possibly have been inspired by other girls' stories, probably because he's not aware how young people communicate online these days (or even in this millennium), but a journalist found discussions about this, for instance on an internet forum for young girls who are into horses.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:29 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Psychology Today medical sociologist weighs in:
Great article!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:33 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
But isn't it terribly risky to use a conspiracy theory that doesn't make sense for this purpose?
With this Administration!? You must be kidding!!!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:02 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Psychology Today medical sociologist weighs in:

The author makes this statement:
Quote:
For instance, an acoustical device generating inaudible sounds, cannot damage a person’s hearing.
Is that true? We know there are sounds at frequencies that are below or above the normal range of human hearing. Children hear tones at higher frequencies than most adults. Could a tone emitted at a frequency -- high or low -- that can't be heard still be broadcast at a volume -- a decibel level -- that would cause damage to the structures of the ear, or that would cause other physical symptoms? The energy would still strike the body, even if the subject couldn't hear it.

I wouldn't be so quick to say "If I can't hear it, it's not there." I'm not sure a sociologist, as opposed to a physicist or an occupational health scientist, is the guy to ask about this.

Last edited by Bob001; 18th September 2017 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:14 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I wouldn't be so quick to say "If I can't hear it, it's not there." I'm not sure a sociologist, as opposed to a physicist or an occupational health scientist, is the guy to ask about this.
OK, then I can hear aliens!

Could you present us with a recording of these alleged noises? You are aware that so far we have seen only conjecture and anecdotal evidence, right?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:19 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The author makes this statement:


Is that true? We know there are sounds at frequencies that are below or above the normal range of human hearing. Children hear tones at higher frequencies than most adults. Could a tone emitted at a frequency -- high or low -- that can't be heard still be broadcast at a volume -- a decibel level -- that would cause damage to the structures of the ear, or that would cause other physical symptoms? The energy would still strike the body, even if the subject couldn't hear it.

I wouldn't be so quick to say "If I can't hear it, it's not there." I'm not sure a sociologist, as opposed to a physicist or an occupational health scientist, is the guy to ask about this.
From The Guardian article:
Quote:
the facts and the physics don’t add up.

“None of this has a reasonable explanation,” said Fulton Armstrong, a former CIA official who served in Havana long before America re-opened an embassy there. “It’s just mystery after mystery after mystery.”

Suspicion initially focused on a sonic weapon, and on the Cubans. Yet the diagnosis of mild brain injury, considered unlikely to result from sound, has confounded the FBI, the state department and US intelligence agencies involved in the investigation.
They go on to say:
Quote:
The United States first acknowledged the attacks in August – nine months after symptoms were first reported.
Really? Or did the US acknowledge the claims that something had been used on these people? There's a difference. The article like the other news sources make it sound like the US has officially acknowledged awareness of a weapon. That's not what I see has actually occurred. But I can guarantee you that given how the news worded the story, it will forever be believed by some people that governments have a secret sonic weapon.

Get out the tin foil hats folks, we're going to need them.

Here's a typical finding in hysteria that is in the Guardian story, a red flag:
Quote:
The cases vary deeply: different symptoms, different recollections of what happened....

Some felt vibrations, and heard sounds – loud ringing or a high-pitch chirping similar to crickets or cicadas. Others heard the grinding noise. Some victims awoke with ringing in their ears and fumbled for their alarm clocks, only to discover the ringing stopped when they moved away from their beds.

The attacks seemed to come at night. Several victims reported they came in minute-long bursts.

Yet others heard nothing, felt nothing. Later, their symptoms came.
The scope keeps widening. ...

And no single, sonic gadget seems to explain such an odd, inconsistent array of physical responses.
Again the Guardian reports the story as if physicians have confirmed some weapon caused injury:
Quote:
doctors had confirmed another two cases, bringing the total American victims to 21. Some have mild traumatic brain injury, known as a concussion, and others permanent hearing loss.
That does not mean the physicians confirmed a sonic weapon caused the medical findings.

Back to the physics:
Quote:
Sound and health experts are equally baffled. Targeted, localized beams of sound are possible, but the laws of acoustics suggest such a device would probably be large and not easily concealed. ...

“Brain damage and concussions, it’s not possible,” said Joseph Pompei, a former MIT researcher and psychoacoustics expert. “Somebody would have to submerge their head into a pool lined with very powerful ultrasound transducers.” ...

FBI investigators swept the rooms, looking for devices. They found nothing,
I'm going to lower that 1% chance of actual weapon caused injuries here to .0000001%.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:23 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
....
It will forever be believed by some people that governments have a secret sonic weapon.
.....
Governments do have sonic weapons. But they're not secret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_R...coustic_Device
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:28 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
....
Again the Guardian reports the story as if physicians have confirmed some weapon caused injury:That does not mean the physicians confirmed a sonic weapon caused the medical findings.
....
And that is the subject of debate. The U.S. government says these people suffered injuries; it has not stated a specific cause, let alone claimed that they were deliberately assaulted by Cuba. There has been some speculation that there could have been some kind of malfunctioning eavesdropping device, but nobody has really explained how that could work.

Last edited by Bob001; 18th September 2017 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:39 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Governments do have sonic weapons. But they're not secret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_R...coustic_Device
That's not a weapon intended to injure, it's not secret and it's a red herring in this discussion. It's a fancy loudspeaker to drive crowds to disperse.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:41 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And that is the subject of debate. The U.S. government says these people suffered injuries; it has not stated a specific cause, let alone claimed that they were deliberately assaulted by Cuba. There has been some speculation that there could have been some kind of malfunctioning eavesdropping device, but nobody has really explained how that could work.
No, the news media reported the people claimed they were injured and the US is investigating.

Besides, if Trump did believe it so what? He's an Alex Jones fan.
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Old 18th September 2017, 02:16 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No, the news media reported the people claimed they were injured and the US is investigating.

Besides, if Trump did believe it so what? He's an Alex Jones fan.

What? Do you think media reports came first? That this didn't happen until "the news media" said so? That's really not the way it works. The media finally reported what had been happening for months.

Heres one of the first reports:
Quote:
On Friday, Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson said the illnesses were a result of “health attacks,” adding, “We’ve not been able to determine who’s to blame.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/w...s-illness.html
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Old 18th September 2017, 03:09 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What? Do you think media reports came first? That this didn't happen until "the news media" said so? That's really not the way it works. The media finally reported what had been happening for months.

Heres one of the first reports:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/11/w...s-illness.html
Let's divide a bit of this up into facts, politics, media reports and the actual medicine/science.

Re the media: I've already noted a lot of what is being reported in the media is being stated as if it were fact, when that is not established. It is a fact these employees believe they have symptoms and believe some secret weapon caused it. It is not a fact that is what actually occurred.

Re the facts: If it were a real weapon with real injuries the injuries would be more consistent between victims. The theoretical physics of the device and the damage would be explicable even if the weapon itself was not known. That is also not the case.

Re the politics: You are putting too much stock in Trump/Tillerson et al. If they go along with the CT, honestly is that a surprise? They have no reason to deny the CT given Trump's base believes it and there is a benefit in making Cuba out to be evil.

You know that. Your POV of Trump is close to mine. Trump et al claiming Cuba has an evil weapon doesn't mean they actually do. Notice Trump et al cannot point to the weapon and they are being iffy about who they are accusing. All signs the adults in the US government are not convinced there is a weapon.

The medical/science: The symptoms fit hysteria, they are all over the map. There are no physics to explain such a weapon.


I can guarantee you the mystery will never be solved because it is hysteria and no officials are likely to call it that, including the physicians. The docs will say the patients have [symptoms] and we have no diagnosis. That's what you do for hysteria. Telling the patient they have not been injured by sonic waves or whatever is not a productive method of addressing patient concerns.

It's also likely one of more of the 21 people will file for workers' comp claiming chronic disability.

It's also more likely federal employees will have problems like this because of the management problems created by the Trump administration, no support, unfilled positions, big changes not all people cope well with. It's workers' comp case management 101: people unhappy at work miss more work and file more claims.

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Old 18th September 2017, 04:43 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

You know that. Your POV of Trump is close to mine. Trump et al claiming Cuba has an evil weapon doesn't mean they actually do. Notice Trump et al cannot point to the weapon and they are being iffy about who they are accusing. All signs the adults in the US government are not convinced there is a weapon.
Also, notice NO TWEETS. If Trump was told that there was a decent chance of it being true, there would be tweets!!

Quote:
It's also more likely federal employees will have problems like this because of the management problems created by the Trump administration, no support, unfilled positions, big changes not all people cope well with. It's workers' comp case management 101: people unhappy at work miss more work and file more claims.
Yes. I think more than just 'unhappy' and starting before he was sworn in. Let's look at when it started. Reports state "late last year". What was happening back in, oh, let's say, November/December timing?

Imagine you have been working on the 'open Cuba' policy plans, perhaps even before arriving at the new embassy. It was a tough road but things are happening and the future looks secure....as long as Hillary wins. Which she totally will, so no problem, right?
Trump had stated he would close the Embassy down until the US got a better deal. He would reverse Obama's changes.
I'm sure it was discussed how truly awful it could get for staff in Cuba before (and if) it did close- but that wasn't not likely to happen, right?

Then, it happened.

Then, the first symptoms started.

Coincidence?

Last edited by Sherkeu; 18th September 2017 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 18th September 2017, 08:07 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
.....
Imagine you have been working on the 'open Cuba' policy plans, perhaps even before arriving at the new embassy. It was a tough road but things are happening and the future looks secure....as long as Hillary wins. Which she totally will, so no problem, right?
Trump had stated he would close the Embassy down until the US got a better deal. He would reverse Obama's changes.
I'm sure it was discussed how truly awful it could get for staff in Cuba before (and if) it did close- but that wasn't not likely to happen, right?

Then, it happened.

Then, the first symptoms started.

Coincidence?

That's a more elaborate conspiracy theory than we would expect even from the White House. But here's the question: Why would FSOs who support the Cuba thaw give the incoming administration a reason to shut down the embassy by blaming the Cuban government for something it didn't do? How does that advance their goals?
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