ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 21st October 2017, 12:25 AM   #1
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,353
Brexit: Now What? Part IV

Mod Info This is a continuation from here. As is usual, posters are free to copy & paste from previous iterations of the thread.
Posted By:Agatha



Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Poor analogy choice as it implies that some could go down the slide while some remain behind.

This was a group choice. Of those that chose to vote, the majority of the group were in favour and the group leaders subsequently announced that they agreed with the decision and were determined to carry it out. The attitude of most of the group remains, "Just get on with it!" A vocal minority are still trying to reverse the decision by any and all means possible.
But they didn't know about the spike, did they? Being able to take in new information, change one's mind and admit error is the way adults are supposed to behave, not least when the future of the entire country is in peril.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

Last edited by Agatha; 21st October 2017 at 05:50 AM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 04:37 AM   #2
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,966
In terms of your analogy, I think there isn't a spike. Project Fear was warning of knives, rotating blades, boiling oil, demons, and so on - even before the vote was taken. After the result went against their personal preference they've continued to invent other imagined hazards to try to get people to change their minds.

To get back to the real issue, the problem is that the constant moaning by remainers isn't actually preventing the Brexit process - but by dangling the prospect of a non-Brexit in front of the negotiators (on both sides) it is allowing them to be more comfortable with their lack of progress - and this will ultimately benefit no one. It would be much more productive if the people on the losing side of the decision just got on board and helped to make the process as smooth and successful as possible.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 04:56 AM   #3
Rat
Not bored. Never bored.
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Leicester, UK
Posts: 10,385
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In terms of your analogy, I think there isn't a spike. Project Fear was warning of knives, rotating blades, boiling oil, demons, and so on - even before the vote was taken. After the result went against their personal preference they've continued to invent other imagined hazards to try to get people to change their minds.

To get back to the real issue, the problem is that the constant moaning by remainers isn't actually preventing the Brexit process - but by dangling the prospect of a non-Brexit in front of the negotiators (on both sides) it is allowing them to be more comfortable with their lack of progress - and this will ultimately benefit no one. It would be much more productive if the people on the losing side of the decision just got on board and helped to make the process as smooth and successful as possible.
The most that 'getting on board' could consist of would be saying nothing. I cannot be cheering it on because I don't believe that any form of it could be anything other than catastrophic, and I have seen no evidence that would suggest otherwise. But you think that when I (rightly or wrongly) see my country as being led into disaster, the right thing for me to do would be to encourage that?
__________________
"Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski
UKLS 1988-
Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.
Rat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 05:09 AM   #4
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,916
Apparently the right thing to do if you're locked in a house with people who have just set fire to it is to help them burn it down.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 05:11 AM   #5
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In terms of your analogy, I think there isn't a spike. Project Fear was warning of knives, rotating blades, boiling oil, demons, and so on - even before the vote was taken. After the result went against their personal preference they've continued to invent other imagined hazards to try to get people to change their minds.

To get back to the real issue, the problem is that the constant moaning by remainers isn't actually preventing the Brexit process - but by dangling the prospect of a non-Brexit in front of the negotiators (on both sides) it is allowing them to be more comfortable with their lack of progress - and this will ultimately benefit no one. It would be much more productive if the people on the losing side of the decision just got on board and helped to make the process as smooth and successful as possible.

Er, the problems with the UK leaving the EU will only happen once the UK has left the EU. All that happens beforehand is that people factor in the likely effects and, say the currency gets devalued, so that inflation rises.
to use the slide analogy, we've been on the slide since March 31, 2017 but the ride is only going to get bumpy after March 31, 2019. Pretending anything else is just silly.




As for the problems ahead:

Do you have any idea how many goods are transported between the UK and the EU? Do you have any idea hoe the UK customs are going to deal with this on April 1st 2019? Do you have any idea what is going to happen with flights to the EU27 on April 1st 2019? Do you have any idea what is going to happen with perishable foods travelling either direction on April 1st 2019?

If you do, please could you inform Theresa May. If you do, can you also explain how these are not going to be disasters?


Pretending that this is the fault of the people who are pointing this out is even sillier.

Pretending that Theresa May has a clear negotiating position is rubbish - she is being ambiguous, because as soon as she is clear on her position she'll lose support. However that is not tenable when we have until March 2019 to finalise everything.

ETA: and I have reported this thread for housekeeping as it's getting long
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 05:12 AM   #6
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 10,804
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It would be much more productive if the people on the losing side of the decision just got on board and helped to make the process as smooth and successful as possible.
Oh good. How? As a software engineer should I start work on the IT systems for HMRC to handle the WTO tariffs at ports? Perhaps I should hack into the Home Office systems and make them fit for purpose? Either should only take me a few decades. No other bugger seems to be doing it.

This is one of the sillier mantras from brexiteers - that if we all come together and sing Kumbaya all these nasty factsessss will just disappear and we'll begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure.
__________________
Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 06:13 AM   #7
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Apparently the right thing to do if you're locked in a house with people who have sprinkled petrol around the house and have got some matches out, but haven't yet lit them is to avoid pointing out that this is a bad idea but that they needn't light the matches have just set fire to it is to help them burn it down.
A slight modification, that makes it less pithy, but I think improves the analogy. Not that yours was incorrect.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 06:15 AM   #8
ohms
Muse
 
ohms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 964
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Oh good. How? As a software engineer should I start work on the IT systems for HMRC to handle the WTO tariffs at ports? Perhaps I should hack into the Home Office systems and make them fit for purpose? Either should only take me a few decades. No other bugger seems to be doing it.

This is one of the sillier mantras from brexiteers - that if we all come together and sing Kumbaya all these nasty factsessss will just disappear and we'll begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure.
Indeed, this summers NAO report on the new Customs Declaration Service software made worrying reading.
__________________
Long time lurker
ohms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 06:52 AM   #9
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,966
Remember the ludicrously-over-hyped "Y2K bug" ? The fears over Brexit are of the same type. Of course, there was nothing that people fearful of Y2K could do to stop it happening - they just had to stock up with essential supplies, retreat to their bunkers and worry. People with similar irrational fears over Brexit think that they might actually stop it happening - and they do their best to convince other people to share in their fears.

I suppose there's nothing to persuade them that they're wrong - they'll see after Brexit how unfounded their fears were, but by then they will have already damaged the process and made things worse for themselves and everyone else. Their doom-laden predictions will push us towards a sort of tragic self-fulfilling prophesy.

The only thing the rest of us can try is to do our best to ignore the nay-sayers and soldier on.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 07:06 AM   #10
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,916
Speaking as someone who helped fixed it I can confirm that the Y2K bug was real, and would have caused real problems if it hadn't been fixed. The equivalent with Brexit would be to prevent Brexit happening, so the real problems it would cause never materialise.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 07:27 AM   #11
ohms
Muse
 
ohms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 964
Same. I remember getting my budget approved then fixing/replacing and testing hardware and software months in advance. Pretty much the opposite of what's happening with Brexit where the Customs will be using a system that hasn't been tested at the levels that may be needed after we leave the EU...assuming it can even be delivered on time.
__________________
Long time lurker
ohms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 07:30 AM   #12
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 23,184
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Remember the ludicrously-over-hyped "Y2K bug" ? The fears over Brexit are of the same type. Of course, there was nothing that people fearful of Y2K could do to stop it happening - they just had to stock up with essential supplies, retreat to their bunkers and worry. People with similar irrational fears over Brexit think that they might actually stop it happening - and they do their best to convince other people to share in their fears.
That's the typical ill-informed nonsense you hear from people who don't rely on "experts". Like Pixel42, I worked on Y2K-related projects for the best part of a decade. Most of it wasn't critically safety related, mostly it was finance and accounting systems which would have caused major inconvenience but no loss of life.

One notable exception was the amount of effort that went into ensuring that Scottish Hydro's systems would stay online - a lack of electricity would have been disasterous.

The reason why the Y2K was such a damp squib in the end were the millions upon millions of hours of effort put in over the course of decades by highly skilled and experienced engineers, IT professionals, managers, risk planners and so on.....

Tbh it's the same kind of thinking I've heard repeatedly when clients say "I don't know why I bothered to have a project manager, they were a waste of money because nothing went wrong".
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 07:36 AM   #13
Rat
Not bored. Never bored.
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Leicester, UK
Posts: 10,385
Indeed I can't take seriously someone who says that the Millennium bug was overhyped nonsense. It was a very serious problem that thousands of people worked hard to put right, and if they hadn't it would indeed have been disastrous.
__________________
"Man muß den Menschen vor allem nach seinen Lastern beurteilen. Tugenden können vorgetäuscht sein. Laster sind echt." - Klaus Kinski
UKLS 1988-
Sitting on the fence throwing stones at both sides.
Rat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 08:08 AM   #14
Hubert Cumberdale
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 857
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post

I suppose there's nothing to persuade them that they're wrong - they'll see after Brexit how unfounded their fears were, but by then they will have already damaged the process and made things worse for themselves and everyone else. Their doom-laden predictions will push us towards a sort of tragic self-fulfilling prophesy.

The only thing the rest of us can try is to do our best to ignore the nay-sayers and soldier on.
Oh yes, its all the remoaners fault that Brexit went wrong. If only they had "got on board"
Hubert Cumberdale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 08:15 AM   #15
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,353
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Remember the ludicrously-over-hyped "Y2K bug" ? The fears over Brexit are of the same type. Of course, there was nothing that people fearful of Y2K could do to stop it happening - they just had to stock up with essential supplies, retreat to their bunkers and worry.
Bilge.

I worked for 12 months solid on Y2K - for one client - to fix s/w problems before they had a chance to bite. And it wasn't legacy software, by any stretch of the imagination. Countless other people did similar work.

eta: And, just in case you were being ironic, Y2K problems within a given system could be identified years in advance. With Brexit we have yet to learn quite what needs fixing.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

Last edited by GlennB; 21st October 2017 at 08:35 AM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 08:15 AM   #16
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 23,184
Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
Oh yes, its all the remoaners fault that Brexit went wrong. If only they had "got on board"
Well tbh that's where all the actual expertise is.......
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 08:41 AM   #17
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,672
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
<snip>




As for the problems ahead:

Do you have any idea how many goods are transported between the UK and the EU? Do you have any idea hoe the UK customs are going to deal with this on April 1st 2019?

Thay have that covered. I read about it in an article posted upthread (Er, last thread).

They're gonna build a parking lot*. Already setting aside the money for it.

Quote:
Do you have any idea what is going to happen with flights to the EU27 on April 1st 2019?

A really, really big parking lot?

Quote:
Do you have any idea what is going to happen with perishable foods travelling either direction on April 1st 2019?

<snip>

That's easy. A parking lot with a farmer's market.

--------------------------

*: I'm not sure how that does anything but make space for the problem to get bigger. A parking lot would act as a reservoir, sure, but reservoirs work on the principle that there are periods where the storage can be relieved. If they don't have a system to do that then a parking lot only gives more shipments a place out of the way to wait, until it fills up. If they can't process as fast as the stuff is coming through it won't make any difference. Sooner or later they're gonna run out of parking.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 08:56 AM   #18
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,353
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Thay have that covered. I read about it in an article posted upthread (Er, last thread).

They're gonna build a parking lot*. Already setting aside the money for it.

A really, really big parking lot?

That's easy. A parking lot with a farmer's market.
--------------------------

*: I'm not sure how that does anything but make space for the problem to get bigger. A parking lot would act as a reservoir, sure, but reservoirs work on the principle that there are periods where the storage can be relieved. If they don't have a system to do that then a parking lot only gives more shipments a place out of the way to wait, until it fills up. If they can't process as fast as the stuff is coming through it won't make any difference. Sooner or later they're gonna run out of parking.
It's called Kent.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 09:34 AM   #19
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,966
You're all missing the point again.

The problems with the Y2K bug were real. There was no way of avoiding Y2K so people got on with the job and fixed the problems.

The problems with Brexit are real. Instead of getting on with it and solving the problems people are instead trying to prevent Brexit happening.

To listen to some people talk, there'll be no planes flying on the day after Brexit. Clearly this sort of thing is ludicrous as planes fly between EU and non-EU countries all the time. This is the sort of issue that could be resolved in days if only people got on with the job instead of trying to use the "impossibility" as an excuse to get what they want instead of what the democratic majority wants.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 09:47 AM   #20
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You're all missing the point again.

The problems with the Y2K bug were real. There was no way of avoiding Y2K so people got on with the job and fixed the problems.

The problems with Brexit are real. Instead of getting on with it and solving the problems people are instead trying to prevent Brexit happening.

To listen to some people talk, there'll be no planes flying on the day after Brexit. Clearly this sort of thing is ludicrous as planes fly between EU and non-EU countries all the time. This is the sort of issue that could be resolved in days if only people got on with the job instead of trying to use the "impossibility" as an excuse to get what they want instead of what the democratic majority wants.
This is the remit of the Brexit ministry. Who is in charge of that, a remoner? I thought David 3-day-week Davis was just a lazy dullard with no sense of how far out of his depth he is, I didn't realise he was consciously trying to sabotage Brexit.

I have heard (and it is eminently plausible) that the civil servants in the Brexit ministry are being advised to take copious notes for the inevitable public inquiry once the fiasco has occurred, and people want to know what went wrong.

ETA: The highlighted part. I think it was me that raised this. If the agreements were put in place between the UK and the non-EU countries outwith the remit of the EU, those flights could continue. However there is no such agreement for flights to the EU27. At the moment such flights would be illegal on April 1st 2019. This is one of the many problems that needs to be fixed before we leave. A competent government would have set in place a ministry of Brexit with the remit of scoping out and reporting what needed doing *before* pressing the A50 button. That is not how this government does things.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 21st October 2017 at 09:52 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:05 AM   #21
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,353
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You're all missing the point again.

The problems with the Y2K bug were real. There was no way of avoiding Y2K so people got on with the job and fixed the problems.

The problems with Brexit are real. Instead of getting on with it and solving the problems people are instead trying to prevent Brexit happening.
I addressed this - we don't know what the issues are. The government can't agree even within its own circles wtf it's aiming for. How can firms and agencies predict what those issues might be. It isn't the EU that's stopping the work going ahead, it's HMG.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:09 AM   #22
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,966
That's an excellent example of the points I'm making: remainers are wasting valuable time. While the government is tied up dealing with constant bickering from remain back benchers and delaying measures by people such as Gina Miller, it can't get on with the work that really needs to be done.

The irony is that when we're not ready in time, the remainers won't admit that it was mostly their fault that the time was wasted.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:12 AM   #23
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,966
A remain trope is to insist that the government doesn't know what it wants - what the remainers really mean is that the government doesn't agree with what the remainers want.

It's the same with the EU saying, 'So far there has been insufficient clarity' when what they really mean is 'You must offer us a bigger bribe.'
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:25 AM   #24
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
A remain trope is to insist that the government doesn't know what it wants - what the remainers really mean is that the government doesn't agree with what the remainers want.

It's the same with the EU saying, 'So far there has been insufficient clarity' when what they really mean is 'You must offer us a bigger bribe.'
What does May want, and who has she told?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:27 AM   #25
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,189
Originally Posted by ceptimus;12043236[SUP
]Remember the ludicrously-over-hyped "Y2K bug" ?[/sup]

...snip...
No - tell me more.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:34 AM   #26
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,189
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You're all missing the point again.

The problems with the Y2K bug were real. There was no way of avoiding Y2K so people got on with the job and fixed the problems.

The problems with Brexit are real. Instead of getting on with it and solving the problems people are instead trying to prevent Brexit happening.

To listen to some people talk, there'll be no planes flying on the day after Brexit. Clearly this sort of thing is ludicrous as planes fly between EU and non-EU countries all the time. This is the sort of issue that could be resolved in days if only people got on with the job instead of trying to use the "impossibility" as an excuse to get what they want instead of what the democratic majority wants.
Eh? The problem is that the ones who want to leave the EU are in charge and should be solving the problems but they are incompetent, lazy, inexperienced, cowardly and arrogant. None of them seem to have any comprehension of the scale of work *they* have decided to take on. Trying to off load the reason why they aren't solving the problems (they wanted to create) to those that already have a solution is just mind blowing!

The leave campaign won, the primary leave advocates are in charge of everything to do with leaving, no one else can solve the many problems.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:39 AM   #27
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,189
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's an excellent example of the points I'm making: remainers are wasting valuable time. While the government is tied up dealing with constant bickering from remain back benchers and delaying measures by people such as Gina Miller, it can't get on with the work that really needs to be done.

The irony is that when we're not ready in time, the remainers won't admit that it was mostly their fault that the time was wasted.
The only way your statements make any sense is if we label the likes of David Davis, Liam Fox and Boris Johnson as "remainers".

They are in total control of the negotiations and the plans for what to do after we leave the EU, if we are ill prepared for leaving the EU it will be their fault, no one else.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:49 AM   #28
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,189
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
What does May want, and who has she told?
Wants to be PM.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 10:54 AM   #29
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,966
I could employ someone to care for my garden and then constantly interrupt her with phone calls, place trip wires across the paths, grease the handles of the spades and other garden tools, throw weed seeds on the lawns and flower beds and so on.

I could then tell her that she was in total control of caring for the garden and that if it's in a real mess that is her fault, no one else.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 11:01 AM   #30
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,189
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I could employ someone to care for my garden and then constantly interrupt her with phone calls, place trip wires across the paths, grease the handles of the spades and other garden tools, throw weed seeds on the lawns and flower beds and so on.

I could then tell her that she was in total control of caring for the garden and that if it's in a real mess that is her fault, no one else.
Explain in light of your analogy how has David Davis, Liam Fox and Johnson been interrupted in their jobs?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st October 2017, 01:48 PM   #31
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,450
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
A remain trope is to insist that the government doesn't know what it wants - what the remainers really mean is that the government doesn't agree with what the remainers want.

It's the same with the EU saying, 'So far there has been insufficient clarity' when what they really mean is 'You must offer us a bigger bribe.'
The obvious problem with Brexit is that those who are competent to implement it wouldn't dream of doing so while those who think it's a good idea are too idiotic, incompetent or disconnected from reality to ever actually implement it.

The reality is that when the idiots are done having their fun it will be those who never thought it was a good idea in the first place who will have to pick up the pieces.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 02:52 AM   #32
Hubert Cumberdale
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 857
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The irony is that when we're not ready in time, the remainers won't admit that it was mostly their fault that the time was wasted.
It is literally impossible for us to be ready on time.

To be ready would involve many years of work and the spending of tens of billions of pounds, perhaps even hundreds of billions.

For example ceptimus, what is going to happen when we leave Euratom? We will no longer have an atomic energy regulator which means no one (apart from maybe North Korea) will be able to sell nuclear energy or nuclear medicine material to us.

As we derive about 20% of our power from nuclear power stations, how are the remainers supposed to be keeping the lights on?

It is for the government to set up a new atomic energy regulator.

That means new primary legislation to create and empower the new regulator.

The steps are:
  • The legislation needs to be passed through parliament.
  • Then a premises needs to be identified and purchased or leased.
  • Then the necessary IT need to be specified and developed.
  • Then staff (with suitable experience) need to be recruited and trained.
  • Then the regulator needs to be approved by the IAEA
  • Only then can we start buying fuel for our nukes and radiation sources for our hospitals.

There is absolutely no way this could have been done even if work had been started on the day May triggered Article 50.

And this is only one aspect of Brexit that needs to be addressed.

So question for ceptimus:

Do you think the above is incorrect?

If so, how is this incorrect?

If not, then how can you think a no deal scenario would be anything other than a catastrophe?
Hubert Cumberdale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 03:13 AM   #33
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,966
How do you think all non-EU countries get their nuclear medicine material? You think they've all spent tens of billions of pounds or more setting up a means to do that?
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 03:14 AM   #34
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
It is literally impossible for us to be ready on time.

To be ready would involve many years of work and the spending of tens of billions of pounds, perhaps even hundreds of billions.

For example ceptimus, what is going to happen when we leave Euratom? We will no longer have an atomic energy regulator which means no one (apart from maybe North Korea) will be able to sell nuclear energy or nuclear medicine material to us.

As we derive about 20% of our power from nuclear power stations, how are the remainers supposed to be keeping the lights on?

It is for the government to set up a new atomic energy regulator.

That means new primary legislation to create and empower the new regulator.

The steps are:
  • The legislation needs to be passed through parliament.
  • Then a premises needs to be identified and purchased or leased.
  • Then the necessary IT need to be specified and developed.
  • Then staff (with suitable experience) need to be recruited and trained.
  • Then the regulator needs to be approved by the IAEA
  • Only then can we start buying fuel for our nukes and radiation sources for our hospitals.

There is absolutely no way this could have been done even if work had been started on the day May triggered Article 50.

And this is only one aspect of Brexit that needs to be addressed.

So question for ceptimus:

Do you think the above is incorrect?

If so, how is this incorrect?

If not, then how can you think a no deal scenario would be anything other than a catastrophe?
I think this is the answer

Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
all these nasty factsessss will just disappear and we'll begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure.
Worth it just for the "factsessss"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 22nd October 2017 at 03:15 AM.
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 03:47 AM   #35
Amazer
Graduate Poster
 
Amazer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,394
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
How do you think all non-EU countries get their nuclear medicine material? You think they've all spent tens of billions of pounds or more setting up a means to do that?
Maybe not at the cost of tens of billions of pounds but by an large yes.. other non-EU countries have largely followed that template to set up their nuclear systems and regulator.

Of course, those countries didn't have a 2 year deadline to content with. That does tend to push prices up a little.
Amazer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 03:57 AM   #36
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Maybe not at the cost of tens of billions of pounds but by an large yes.. other non-EU countries have largely followed that template to set up their nuclear systems and regulator.

Of course, those countries didn't have a 2 year deadline to content with. That does tend to push prices up a little.
nasty factsessss that will go away if we're just positive about Brexit.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 04:01 AM   #37
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,353
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
A remain trope is to insist that the government doesn't know what it wants - what the remainers really mean is that the government doesn't agree with what the remainers want.
The reason there's precious little progress is that any firm decision on the part of HMG would result in immediate civil war among the Tories. By endlessly avoiding tough-but-necessary choices they delay the fateful day, up to the point where sheer inevitability leads us where it will.

Bottom line - they're all saving their own skins, trying to remain standing for their own future benefit. Leadership of a Conservative party that has a recent history of utter awfulness looks like a poor reward to me, especially if it's won by flushing your country down the toilet, ditto senior party positions under your preferred leader.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 04:07 AM   #38
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 79,189
You are being unfair, it should be clear to everyone that it is Johnson's turn to be PM, not his fault if the EU doesn't know that.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 04:10 AM   #39
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,691
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
In terms of your analogy, I think there isn't a spike.
Mostly because you have your eyes firmly shut every time people try to show it you...

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Remember the ludicrously-over-hyped "Y2K bug" ?
You mean the very real problem that people like yourself pretended would just go away?
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

Last edited by Garrison; 22nd October 2017 at 04:16 AM.
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd October 2017, 04:16 AM   #40
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,960
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Mostly because you have your eyes firmly shut every time people try to show it you...
"You said the decision to leave the EU would be a disaster - and nothing much has happened yet, so it's fine"

I do note that apart from the glaringly obvious point that we are still in the EU and the less obvious point that George Osbourne needed to rescind* austerity to avoid a recession - Ceptimus hasn't actually given any benefits for Brexit.


*Which does beg the question as to what would have happened if he'd made that decision earlier, without the headwind that the Brexit decision has led to.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:35 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.