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Old 4th December 2017, 10:57 AM   #81
Crossbow
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The scenario is this:

I do a practice that is intended to "open" my third eye. The practice is chanting the sound OM for 10 minutes a day, twice a day. I do the practice for a couple of weeks, and eventually something happens, you can call it my third eye opening just for the sake of argument. All of a sudden I see what looks like auras, see what looks like ghosts, and feel what seems to be other people's emotions. What would you, if you are a materialist, say about this as a materialist? And for the sake of the thread we'll just say a materialist is someone who believes that there are no supernatural entities.
Aw shucks!

I cannot give you an answer right now because my third eye needs to gets his third eye exam from his third eye doctor due to the slightly out of focus problem that my third eye has been having for the last few weeks.

This is becoming a difficult problem for my third eye to deal with since it has to be fixed before the start of the spring third eye baseball season since my third eye has a part-time job as a third eye baseball umpire. And to further complicate things, it can be a bit difficult to administer those third eye drops which are needed to dilate the third eye pupil.

But anyway, as soon as my third eye gets his new third eye eyeglasses, then I will be sure to answer your question at that time.

Thanks much.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:00 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Well, it's not about my belief, or yours. What we believe is irrelevant when we're making claims about the real world.
Something exists, or it doesn't.
There is no evidence for the supernatural.
That makes me say that it's not very likely, and you that it might be hiding.

I'm willing to adjust my opinion if evidence does come up, but I doubt there is anything that can make you change your mind, if you say that our lack of evidence is a sign something special is going on.
How do you define evidence? For me, evidence is something that lends credence to a claim. That lending may not actually be lending in some cases (Someone's breath smelling like pastry after yours has gone missing wouldn't necessarily mean that they ate your pastry, as they could have just eaten their own, but yours got lost some other way, but one could take someone's breath smelling like pastry as evidence that they ate the pastry) just like how perceiving weird things might not actually be evidence of me activating some spiritual aspect of myself and then perceiving spiritual phenomena. But I have not yet seen absolute proof that those perceptions are just hallucinations. I think we all want to believe what we believe, unless evidence forces us to believe otherwise. With the materialist, they perhaps want to believe that the world is strictly naturalistic or just don't want to believe that there are supernatural entities, for people like me, perhaps they want to believe that supernatural things exist, and don't give in until a piece of evidence is undeniable. Supernatural phenomena has not yet been proven to not exist (at least not in a way I'm aware of) and thus that undeniable piece of evidence is missing for the believer, and that flame perhaps won't be snuffed out just by the sheer likelihood that this phenomena doesn't exist, unless that likelihood is extremely great, and it perhaps won't be put to rest until it has been disproven. What I think is going on is that people are born with, or develop from their experiences, certain biases that they then side with when presented with a supernatural claim. Although there is nothing there that proves it absolutely, due to the psychology of a person, they side with one side over another and perhaps when you are arguing for claims like these, it is not the claims that matter (since conclusive evidence is hard to give) but the psychology of the people debating.

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Old 4th December 2017, 11:08 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
How do you define evidence? For me, evidence is something that lends credence to a claim. That lending may not actually be lending in some cases (Someone's breath smelling like pastry after yours has gone missing wouldn't necessarily mean that they ate your pastry, as they could have just eaten their own, but yours got lost some other way, but one could take someone's breath smelling like pastry as evidence that they ate the pastry) just like how perceiving weird things might not actually be evidence of me activating some spiritual aspect of myself and then perceiving spiritual phenomena. But I have not yet seen absolute proof that those perceptions are just hallucinations. I think we all want to believe what we believe, unless evidence forces us to believe otherwise. With the materialist, they perhaps want to believe that the world is strictly naturalistic or just don't want to believe that there are supernatural entities, for people like me, perhaps they want to believe that supernatural things exist, and don't give in until a piece of evidence is undeniable. Supernatural phenomena has not yet been proven to not exist (at least not in a way I'm aware of) and thus that undeniable piece of evidence is missing for the believer, and that flame perhaps won't be snuffed out just by the sheer likelihood that this phenomena doesn't exist, unless that likelihood is extremely great, and it perhaps won't be put to rest until it has been disproven. [...].
Your critical thinking gland could use some opening. How would you go about proving that something like the supernatural didn't exist? You can't disprove my claim that a sentient Pepsi bottle is controlling the universe either. We're back to that burden of proof thing again. The onus is on you.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:14 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
With the materialist, they perhaps want to believe that the world is strictly naturalistic or just don't want to believe that there are supernatural entities, for people like me, perhaps they want to believe that supernatural things exist, and don't give in until a piece of evidence is undeniable.
I would LOVE for supernatural stuff to be real. That would be so exciting, and so cool! Psychic powers? Sign me up! I mean, there would be a downside too - people psychically spying on each other or using mind control or whatever - but man. If there was some kind of magic that would be so fascinating.

You know what a lot of the cranky old skeptics here have in common? Lots of us became skeptics because we loved reading about psychic powers and miracles and magic and ancient aliens and stuff. I remember these old Time Life books, Mysteries of the Unexplained or something*, that I would just check out of the library over and over. Good times.

So... you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Supernatural phenomena has not yet been proven to not exist
You're being a hypocrite again. I already explained this to you.

Are you applying the same standard of evidence to psychic powers and to everything else? No, you are not. You know that you can't 100% absolutely prove a negative. You don't hold other things up to this impossible standard.

You don't believe in fairies just because I can't 100 percent prove they don't exist.
You don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster just because I can't 100 percent prove He doesn't exist.
You don't believe mice know magic spells just because I can't 100 percent prove they don't.
You don't believe we're actually in the Matrix just because I can't 100 percent prove we're not.
You don't believe in Russell's teapot just because I can't 100% disprove it.

It seems like you want to act like we're on equal footing somehow. I can't prove that psychic powers aren't real, you can't prove they are, so it's a he said/she said kind of situation. It's a 50/50 shot.

But that's not what's going on.

You are up against observable reality. All of it.



*EDIT: Mysteries of the Unknown

Last edited by SOdhner; 4th December 2017 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Found the books!
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I have read the wikipedia article and didn't see anything that excluded the existence of psychic powers.
But you saw stuff which showed the actual reason for this gland, what it does, and how it does it. That's enough, right there, for the bull **** to end. Whatever you imagine you are experiencing when you do your chanting stuff, it has nothing to do with the pineal eye.

And you've done that thing again, where you turn around the onus. It isn't for anyone to exclude your makey-uppie nonsense, it is for you to demonstrate evidence for its existence. You have singularly failed to do this, or even attempt to do this. For that reason alone one might suggest that your real purpose here is just to wind people up, rather than have any sort of useful discussion.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:28 AM   #86
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Delete. Nvrmnd.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:28 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
What about it? People who have gone most of their lives without epilepsy can still develop seizures later in life.
So are you saying that a fit of epilepsy can cause a hallucination similar to the hallucination caused by doing the practices that are supposed to open your third eye?

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
(Not saying that that's the case here, just that the fact that something starts later in life, or has a specific event associated with it in someone's mind says nothing about the cause).
I'm not sure what you mean here, could you clarify?
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:30 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Just curious, what would you think if you were to do this method and have your third eye opened and saw unusual things?
I would devise tests to see if these perceptions were giving me information that wasn't otherwise available, of course, and if they weren't I would put it down to my imagination. In other words I would treat my own perceptions in exactly the same way I would treat someone else's. I have the same cognitive biases as anyone else, I'm as suggestible as anyone else, I'm as imaginative as anyone else, I'm as likely to inadvertently fool myself as anyone else ....

Why do you think I would regard these perceptions differently if it was me having them rather than someone else? Just curious.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:31 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Are you paying for this schooling and what is it, precisely, that they promise to teach you? Just meditiation? Or are they making actual claims that you'll be able to read auras and such?
Yes, I am paying for it. They promise to teach various things about the spiritual aspect of the universe. They do seem to claim that if you do the practices you will perceive auras and other things.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:36 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If you don't mind, could you point me towards this research?
This used to be the JREF forum. JREF tested hundreds of claims, and for a while a JREF staff member documented each one in its own thread. You'll find them here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...splay.php?f=43
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:40 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
So are you saying that a fit of epilepsy can cause a hallucination similar to the hallucination caused by doing the practices that are supposed to open your third eye?



I'm not sure what you mean here, could you clarify?
You said (and I paraphrase) 'what about the fact that people go most of their life without having paranormal experiences and then start having them?'
I asked you: what about that?
Nothing happens before it happens.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:44 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
But you saw stuff which showed the actual reason for this gland, what it does, and how it does it. That's enough, right there, for the bull **** to end. Whatever you imagine you are experiencing when you do your chanting stuff, it has nothing to do with the pineal eye.
Just because they don't mention that it has this psychic aspect doesn't mean it doesn't have it. There may be more to things than what you already know.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
And you've done that thing again, where you turn around the onus. It isn't for anyone to exclude your makey-uppie nonsense, it is for you to demonstrate evidence for its existence. You have singularly failed to do this, or even attempt to do this. For that reason alone one might suggest that your real purpose here is just to wind people up, rather than have any sort of useful discussion.
I am not trying to stir people up, I really am trying to have a useful discussion, and though this discussion may not have been very useful to you, so far, it has been to me. The reason I don't demonstrate the the existence of psychic powers is partly because I don't know how to prove psychic powers with just words, all I can say is that when you do this thing, something happens that people call your third eye opening, and then you perceive these unusual things. I can actually do the method (and I plan to) and come back and tell you what I've seen, but it takes a while. I just think that it's not really a good explanation (no offense) that when you do this practice, the result of it is a hallucination. But maybe that is just me.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:45 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You said (and I paraphrase) 'what about the fact that people go most of their life without having paranormal experiences and then start having them?'
I asked you: what about that?
Nothing happens before it happens.
I'm sorry, I'm not very smart, I still don't understand you.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I'm sorry, I'm not very smart, I still don't understand you.
I was saying that what you thought was an argument, wasn't.
Let's drop it.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:49 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
just think that it's not really a good explanation (no offense) that when you do this practice, the result of it is a hallucination.
Imagining you feel a sensation where you have been told to expect to feel a sensation is not a hallucination. It's just a normal, suggestible, imagination at work.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:49 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I would devise tests to see if these perceptions were giving me information that wasn't otherwise available, of course, and if they weren't I would put it down to my imagination. In other words I would treat my own perceptions in exactly the same way I would treat someone else's. I have the same cognitive biases as anyone else, I'm as suggestible as anyone else, I'm as imaginative as anyone else, I'm as likely to inadvertently fool myself as anyone else ....

Why do you think I would regard these perceptions differently if it was me having them rather than someone else? Just curious.
I thought that you would treat your experiences differently because other people can lie about their experiences and there is a force to experiencing something yourself that can not be had from just hearing accounts from other people that help to validate the phenomena.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:51 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Imagining you feel a sensation where you have been told to expect to feel a sensation is not a hallucination. It's just a normal, suggestible, imagination at work.
Yes, but what if you had someone who had no ideas of what would happen do the method and they still felt the pressure in the area of the third eye? And later on began to experience "ghosts" and "auras"

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Old 4th December 2017, 11:51 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Could you tell me more about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transc...tion_technique

That tells you all you need to know about this very common practice. Like I said, I know quite a few people who do this, and they all do it for relaxation, basically.

Anyone who is relaxing their mind in this kind of manner will undoubtedly find themselves thinking about all kinds of random things, it's natural, and more akin to a brain-fart than it is a connection with some higher power or third eye.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:52 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Just because they don't mention that it has this psychic aspect doesn't mean it doesn't have it. There may be more to things than what you already know..........
And there you go again. Stop doing this stuff. You've been told: the onus is on you to provide evidence in support of your claim, and "you haven't proved that it can't happen" isn't even a kindergarten-level response.

If you haven't got any evidence for something for which there are simple prosaic explanations, sane people will accept those simple proven explanations until or unless something comes along to either show that was in error, or that the proven explanations aren't the whole story.

Now, see if you can avoid making that same stupid argument again, OK? We're on page 3 of you doing it, and it's getting more than a little irritating.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:56 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
.....I am not trying to stir people up, I really am trying to have a useful discussion........
Prove it, by not repeating "you haven't proved that it doesn't happen". At the moment, I doubt there is anyone here who believes the above.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:56 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I thought that you would treat your experiences differently because other people can lie about their experiences and there is a force to experiencing something yourself that can not be had from just hearing accounts from other people that help to validate the phenomena.
Maybe I'm too trusting, but my default assumption is that people who report these experiences are telling the truth unless there is good reason to suspect otherwise. It's not like it's difficult to explain them without assuming lies/fraud; fallible perceptions and cognitive biases are usually all that's required.
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:58 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I have read the wikipedia article and didn't see anything that excluded the existence of psychic powers.
The Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye) doesn't exclude the following:

The existence of psychic powers.
The existence of nuclear power.
The existence of Spiderman.
The existence of spiders.
The existence of X-ray vision.
The existence of X-rays.
The existence of Thelonius Monk.
The existence of faster than light travel.
The existence of....

The Wikipedia article on the parietal eye doesn't exclude an infinity of things. If the parietal eye had anything to do with psychic powers, then you'd expect the Wikipedia article to include psychic powers, not merely not exclude psychic powers.

It sounds like you don't know how to read an encyclopedia article and thusly think that anything the article doesn't explicitly exclude is somehow to be implicit included as relevant. That's obviously a nonsensical and bizarre way to read an article.

I thus have to interpret your comment as a rather desperate attempt to reverse the burden of proof by implying that because an article on parietal eyes does not specifically exclude the idea that they have something to do with psychic powers, we should therefore assume they they do have something to do with psychic powers, or that we should therefore remain open to the idea that parietal eyes have something to do with psychic powers.

This is still nonsense. The Wikipedia article on the parietal eye doesn't exclude breatharianism. Should I therefore conclude that the parietal gland might have something to do with being able to live without eating food or drinking water? If it didn't have anything to do with it, then the article would have said so, right?

Of course, that would also be very silly.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yes, but what if you had someone who had no ideas of what would happen do the method and they still felt the pressure in the area of the third eye? And later on began to experience "ghosts" and "auras"
Well when you have objective evidence of people who definitely don't know what to expect perceiving exactly the predicted sensations by all means post it, and I'll consider my response. I see no reason to speculate about how I would explain something that has never been reliably reported to happen.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:07 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Plenty of people sell products that don't exist, so I don't think this follows, because while you are correct that if he has a power he can make money with it, he could make money even without that power by simply convincing others that he has it, and thus let you know that he has a part time job conning people without demonstrating that he has said ability.
I am keeping this possibility firmly in mind. For now, though, I'm willing to give Wonder the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:15 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I thought that you would treat your experiences differently because other people can lie about their experiences and there is a force to experiencing something yourself that can not be had from just hearing accounts from other people that help to validate the phenomena.
Not to butt into Pixel42's conversation here, but I saw this comment and thought it worthy of an additional point.

One of the first steps to skepticism, and one that is of enormous importance in not falling into cynicism, is to understand that you, yourself, are the easiest person to fool. We are ALL subject to bias based on our upbringing, beliefs, experiences, and expectations. And everyones brain has a lot of things hard-wired into it that can cause false perceptions or ideas, from perceptual errors (optical illusions) to cognitive errors (confirmation bias and other false pattern matching) to outright malfunction (hypnopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations, for example).

Investigating my own perceived supernatural events was a major point in my path to skepticism, in fact. One a "ghost" sighting near a cemetery (a story I've told here before) and the other a skeleton that stood over me and had me paralyzed. In each case I didn't assume that was I saw/experienced was objectively true and look for what it was, instead I started trying to determine what I actually experienced. I think this step leads a lot of people astray. For example, in your hypothetical the chanter assumed that the experiences are real: there are auras, that ghosts exist, and that you the telepathy was picking up other peoples emotions. The first step should be to test, to find out if any of it has any reality beyond the perception. How do you verify you're picking up emotions (outside the usual non-verbal clues that humans are VERY good at picking up on)? Is there any way to verify if the ghosts have any real, external reality? Can you test whether the auras you're seeing are real or an effect of bad contact lenses?

Those are the types of questions I ask myself when I experience something that seems unusual, and in all cases where I've been able to investigate I've found mundane causes (a cow and a well-known hallucinatory effect, for the two specific examples I mentioned).

Just thought it worth pointing out that if you treat your own perceptions an interpretations as somehow more true than those of others, you're doing yourself a disservice.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:21 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Your critical thinking gland could use some opening. How would you go about proving that something like the supernatural didn't exist? You can't disprove my claim that a sentient Pepsi bottle is controlling the universe either. We're back to that burden of proof thing again. The onus is on you.
Alright, I still don't understand this burden of proof thing, but I will try to support my claim insofar as it is good to do so. What I essentially have to prove is that when you "open your third eye" you "perceive spiritual phenomena" as a result.

What I am essentially arguing for then is that the phenomena you perceive are not produced by the mind. This contrasts it from things your mind mostly receives, rather than actively produces. A good way then, to find out if something is not just being produced by your mind is to have someone look at the same spot or be in the position to perceive the same phenomena you're perceiving, and if they don't perceive, or a group of people don't perceive it, then maybe it is just in your mind. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is not there, as someone could just be perceiving a different aspect of reality than the group. Then perhaps if the group were to gain psychic powers of perception and be in the position to perceive the same thing, they would all perceive it. But this too, can be tricky because different people can have different ways of perceiving. Perceiving the spiritual realm could be inexact, with different people perceiving different things that are there, but not the same thing because they are tuned into the same range that they need to be in tune with. But you could say why go with that explanation when you could go with the easier explanation that they are all just hallucinating? Well, just because it is an easier explanation doesn't mean it's true, and if it is at least coherent as an idea, then it serves to offer an explanation as to why they are not perceiving the same thing and avoids the termination of the discussion that the explanation of "they're hallucinating" brings. But if they are all perceiving different things how can you prove that a phenomena is not just in one persons head and is thus just a hallucination? I'll post later to argue a different point.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:27 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Alright, I still don't understand this burden of proof thing
Didn't you read my post explaining it to you?
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:31 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Well when you have objective evidence of people who definitely don't know what to expect perceiving exactly the predicted sensations by all means post it, and I'll consider my response.
I think I'll try this, but I don't think it will work; I'll go to different forums and ask people what do they expect to happen when they chant the mantra OM and then tell them to chant the mantra OM for about five minutes and have them tell me what they have experienced doing it without me telling them what will happen. Of course, I don't know if these people have any memories of information of what would happen if you did it that are subconsciously affecting them, and I don't know if they are lying. But, I'll give it a go anyhow.

Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I see no reason to speculate about how I would explain something that has never been reliably reported to happen.
I think a good reason to speculate is that the experiment may be a waste of time if you were to know, in principle, that the experiment would not lend validity to what it is trying to lend validity to.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:34 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
The Randi test suggested did not involve seeing through walls. The wall is just high enough to block the material image, but not the area of the aura extending above the head.
Thank you, Pope130. Beat me to it. Now let's see if Wonder234 answers.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:37 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Not to butt into Pixel42's conversation here, but I saw this comment and thought it worthy of an additional point.

One of the first steps to skepticism, and one that is of enormous importance in not falling into cynicism, is to understand that you, yourself, are the easiest person to fool. We are ALL subject to bias based on our upbringing, beliefs, experiences, and expectations. And everyones brain has a lot of things hard-wired into it that can cause false perceptions or ideas, from perceptual errors (optical illusions) to cognitive errors (confirmation bias and other false pattern matching) to outright malfunction (hypnopompic and hypnogogic hallucinations, for example).

Investigating my own perceived supernatural events was a major point in my path to skepticism, in fact. One a "ghost" sighting near a cemetery (a story I've told here before) and the other a skeleton that stood over me and had me paralyzed. In each case I didn't assume that was I saw/experienced was objectively true and look for what it was, instead I started trying to determine what I actually experienced. I think this step leads a lot of people astray. For example, in your hypothetical the chanter assumed that the experiences are real: there are auras, that ghosts exist, and that you the telepathy was picking up other peoples emotions. The first step should be to test, to find out if any of it has any reality beyond the perception. How do you verify you're picking up emotions (outside the usual non-verbal clues that humans are VERY good at picking up on)? Is there any way to verify if the ghosts have any real, external reality? Can you test whether the auras you're seeing are real or an effect of bad contact lenses?

Those are the types of questions I ask myself when I experience something that seems unusual, and in all cases where I've been able to investigate I've found mundane causes (a cow and a well-known hallucinatory effect, for the two specific examples I mentioned).

Just thought it worth pointing out that if you treat your own perceptions an interpretations as somehow more true than those of others, you're doing yourself a disservice.
I was not assuming that the perceptions you'd see if you opened up your third eye are real that is why, in the first post, I said that you see things that "look like" ghosts and auras.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:38 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I like to say that I subject my beliefs to doubt, and I do do things that I think is subjecting my beliefs to doubt, but maybe I am too biased, as I do think that maybe I want to believe that this stuff is true. But so far in my process of "subjecting my beliefs to doubt" I am not convinced by naturalistic explanations. Maybe I'm not doing it the right way even though I think I am.
I didn't say anything about "subjecting my beliefs to doubt" I spoke of putting them to the test.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:39 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
A good way then, to find out if something is not just being produced by your mind is to have someone look at the same spot or be in the position to perceive the same phenomena you're perceiving, and if they don't perceive, or a group of people don't perceive it, then maybe it is just in your mind.
That's a good start, sure.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
But that doesn't necessarily mean it is not there, as someone could just be perceiving a different aspect of reality than the group.
Good, get all these excuses out of the way prior to any experiment. Excellent.

Okay so how do we get around this complaint? I'd say we're back to what several of us have asked: does this power give you any information about the world? In other words, does it tell you something you can maybe verify through non-psychic means?

If you're just looking at colorful blobs you're right that your experiment isn't great. But if those colors MEAN something that you can verify some other way you may have a testable claim. That's why I was asking about things like "can you see the aura in the dark?" or whatever at the top of page 2.

Let me give you an example. It's not about psychics, because I think it may be easier to get the concept across if it's about something unrelated.

Years ago, people started doing this thing called Facilitated Communication. They would work with kids that had some sort of serious mental handicap and couldn't communicate, and they would hold this board covered in letters or symbols and gently cradle the child's arm - allowing the hand to drift over and point at different things.

It was an amazing success! These kids started communicating, writing poetry... uh... accusing people of sexual abuse... yeah.

Some people were skeptical. So they set up a test. They had a long table with a divider, so the kid could see along one side and the facilitator could see along the other. Then they would put something at the end of the table and ask, "what is it?" and guess what? The answer was always whatever the facilitator could see.

They were - subconsciously - moving the kid's arm themselves. Writing letters, writing poetry, making up false accusations of abuse. They weren't crazy, or evil, they genuinely thought this was the kid talking.

So think about that. Knowing that people are great at fooling themselves, what is something you could do where the psychic powers could detect something placed by a neutral third party? See an aura, sense an object, etc.? Something that can be confirmed by non-psychic means.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:41 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yes, I am paying for it. They promise to teach various things about the spiritual aspect of the universe. They do seem to claim that if you do the practices you will perceive auras and other things.
They're treating you like a fool and you're willingly allowing yourself to be putty in their hands.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:49 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Humots View Post
Thank you, Pope130. Beat me to it. Now let's see if Wonder234 answers.
Then, I see no reason why that wouldn't work, given that auras really do extend above the head. What has been the results of this experiment? I know it probably didn't provide evidence that auras or psychic perception are real, but what happened exactly? Did the psychics just get it wrong?

If they did, then I would probably say that perceiving auras was kind of unreliable but not non-existent, I can see no other reason why someone capable of perceiving an aura would not perceive the aura in this experiment. But then that kind of stands at odds with my belief that I would be able to open my third eye and just see auras.

Does the ability to perceive come and go? Is the perception there but just not recognizable at times? Does it not work under certain conditions? Physical or psychological or some other conditions?

If they were lying why would they sign up for the experiment? If they were chosen, then them not getting it right could be due either to not having the ability or the ability not being reliable (at least under certain conditions)

Is it possible, if one is not born perceiving auras, or gets it naturally without trying and if there is not someone out there who can perceive auras well naturally, that one can use this technique to not only gain, but strengthen their ability to perceive "spiritual phenomena" to have the ability to perceive auras reliably?
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:55 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
They're treating you like a fool and you're willingly allowing yourself to be putty in their hands.
What they teach might be made up, but I don't know that for sure. Really, I was just looking for anything interesting that could come from it. If it's just a hallucination, like the special technique they gave for having out of body experiences, it doesn't matter if I derive my enjoyment from say, seeing the strangeness of the astral realm, rather than knowing that these are experiences of an astral realm. And I know that I could've found out how to astral project from an internet search, but there are other experiences that it offers and information that, if not true, at least spurs thought, and to me that's worth it.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:57 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If they were lying why would they sign up for the experiment?
They would if they weren't lying, just mistaken.

The point of the experiment is to find out if the perceived auras are really associated with physical bodies, or only imagined to be.
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Old 4th December 2017, 12:57 PM   #117
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Wonder234, of course if you ignore posts that are inconvenient you're unlikely to learn anything.
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:01 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Then, I see no reason why that wouldn't work, given that auras really do extend above the head. What has been the results of this experiment? I know it probably didn't provide evidence that auras or psychic perception are real, but what happened exactly? Did the psychics just get it wrong?

If they did, then I would probably say that perceiving auras was kind of unreliable but not non-existent, I can see no other reason why someone capable of perceiving an aura would not perceive the aura in this experiment. But then that kind of stands at odds with my belief that I would be able to open my third eye and just see auras.

Does the ability to perceive come and go? Is the perception there but just not recognizable at times? Does it not work under certain conditions? Physical or psychological or some other conditions?

If they were lying why would they sign up for the experiment? If they were chosen, then them not getting it right could be due either to not having the ability or the ability not being reliable (at least under certain conditions)

Is it possible, if one is not born perceiving auras, or gets it naturally without trying and if there is not someone out there who can perceive auras well naturally, that one can use this technique to not only gain, but strengthen their ability to perceive "spiritual phenomena" to have the ability to perceive auras reliably?
Sure... It should work, but here are some excuses in case it doesn't, because I still want to be able to pretend it does...
Very intellectually honest.
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:01 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Then, I see no reason why that wouldn't work.......... but what happened exactly?
The right questions. Good.

Quote:
......Does the ability to perceive [auras] come and go? Is the perception there but just not recognizable at times? Does it not work under certain conditions? Physical or psychological or some other conditions?

If they were lying why would they sign up for the experiment?......

Is it possible, if one is not born perceiving auras, or gets it naturally without trying and if there is not someone out there who can perceive auras well naturally, that one can use this technique to not only gain, but strengthen their ability to perceive "spiritual phenomena" to have the ability to perceive auras reliably?
All the wrong questions. Absolute nonsense questions, until the existence or otherwise of auras is established. Only once that question has been tested is it worthwhile moving on to these sorts of questions. You are assuming in your questions the existence of something we are trying to establish the existence of (bad grammar, sorry). That's called begging the question.
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Old 4th December 2017, 01:02 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Those are the types of questions I ask myself when I experience something that seems unusual, and in all cases where I've been able to investigate I've found mundane causes (a cow and a well-known hallucinatory effect, for the two specific examples I mentioned).
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