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Tags auras , hallucinations

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Old 4th December 2017, 11:17 PM   #161
SusanB-M1
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The scenario is hypothetical, yet, it has also been done and has happened. The claim is that people doing this method or other methods, have something happen to them that seems to validate mystical phenomena, and I am just curious what people who do not believe in the supernatural have to say about this.
In my opinion, ;those who are more sceptical and who have made more efforts to keep up with objective scientific thinking interpret such things realistically, look for the objective evidence, and appreciate the human brain's ability to imagine absolutely anything; i.e. they are fully aware of the difference between fact, fiction, and some don't knows.

I see a lot of this 'third eye' stuff on another forum and challenge it as much as I can!
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Old 4th December 2017, 11:40 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I think I'll try this, but I don't think it will work; I'll go to different forums and ask people what do they expect to happen when they chant the mantra OM and then tell them to chant the mantra OM for about five minutes and have them tell me what they have experienced doing it without me telling them what will happen. Of course, I don't know if these people have any memories of information of what would happen if you did it that are subconsciously affecting them, and I don't know if they are lying. But, I'll give it a go anyhow.



I think a good reason to speculate is that the experiment may be a waste of time if you were to know, in principle, that the experiment would not lend validity to what it is trying to lend validity to.
This is by far and away the best forum to look at in order to avoid confirmation bias.
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:59 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Who said I was pretending?



I'll try.
If you look to the left of a post you will see (if using a standard browser) a username, so the person saying you are pretending is MikeG.

See how easy it is to actually answer questions?
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:37 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Spiritual phenomena would be something you would not perceive with normal senses, but is perceptible because of the spiritual augmentation of the senses or a spiritual sense.
This applies to the Third Eye experiences, and equally to nearly any spiritual experience out there -- Pentecostal getting filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, etc.:

The skeptical point of view tends to be that all such experiences, where a person sees or hears a thing or voice, which is not present there according to scientific observation -- no external scientific measuring device would detect the sight or sound that the person believes to see or hear:

The person does not see anything, not with his eyes anyway.

The person does not hear anything, not with his ears anyway.

It is all generated by the brain, triggered by specific expectations and the described spiritualistic techniques -- either of which alone can be sufficient to trigger such "experiences". Hallucinogenic drugs can help, too.

Religions claim otherwise, though. They claim that the experiences are not purely subjective, something that the brain creates. They claim that God did it, or a spirit did it, or whatever supernatural force did it. Science cannot strictly debunk such claims. All we can say that no evidence supports such claims. Any attempts to do something useful or controlled with such imaginary supernatural powers, such as seeing or knowing anything that happens in the real world, when the test person cannot acquire knowledge of the things with his natural senses, has failed in scientific testing.

Looks like brain scanning technology is advancing. Sounds frightening, a brain scanner in the hands of CIA and NSA. Such technology will probably shed light into this topic, exactly how the brain generates such experiences.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
So if you say you see a ghost, and the description of a ghost is a slightly transparent, sometimes humanoid (in case there are animal ghosts) figure of a white-ish color, sometimes various colors, and that is what you perceive, then I'd say you are seeing a ghost.
I would say that your brain is boomeranging your expectations of seeing a ghost back to you. You are not seeing anything, it is only an imaginary illusion created by your brain.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The same goes for other perceptible spiritual phenomena; auras, ghosts, orbs, etc.
Indeed.

Last edited by JJM 777; 5th December 2017 at 03:39 AM.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:39 AM   #165
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This
Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
It is all generated by the brain, triggered by specific expectations and the described spiritualistic techniques -- either of which alone can be sufficient to trigger such "experiences". Hallucinogenic drugs can help, too.
and some peolpe just trigger spontaneously.

Ha,
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I can't be the only one who, upon reading the words "third eye", emits a quiet snerk to myself. It has always been thus.
always makes me think of Mr. Spock's third ear.

The left ear, the right ear and the final front ear.
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Old 5th December 2017, 06:57 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
But, even if phenomena were things that were not described in our culture, because you don't perceive it with your physical senses, and because you perceive it with your "spiritual sense", I would say that what you were perceiving is a spiritual phenomena.
But what you described in your OP was seeing things in your vision after doing your meditation / chanting / whatever...

You said you saw auras, things that looked like ghosts, etc. How can you see things with your eyes and then say you're not seeing things with your physical senses?
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:02 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
You said you saw auras, things that looked like ghosts, etc. How can you see things with your eyes and then say you're not seeing things with your physical senses?
This is why I asked about seeing them in the dark, etc. "It's too dark to see his aura" is a nonsense phrase not only because auras aren't real, but because even if they were real they wouldn't be something that light is bouncing off of - if they were we would all see them all the time.

Of course, since he's just asserting this stuff exists and not that he personally can do any of it we can't put him to the test and he can just go on thinking that soon - so soon - he'll get magic powers. Just keep paying that "school" and saying OMMMM and surely it will happen. Any day now.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:12 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Alright, I still don't understand this burden of proof thing...

The concept comes from a passage in Alf Laylah Wa Laylah ("A thousand nights and night," better known in the west as the Thousand and One Nights or the Arabian Nights.) In the tale of the Third Voyage of Sindbad (aka Sinbad the Sailor), Sindbad is marooned on a remote island, and his only hope of escaping is to be declared king by the island's strange goblin-like natives. To demonstrate beyond doubt that he's truly a Son of Adam, and thus is fit to rule, Sindbad must bring back a golden pearl that's inside a bronze clam shell, within the sea-cliff lair of the fearsome Roc, a hawk of enormous size. When Sindbad enters the cavern, the Roc is nowhere to be seen, but the lair is overrun with angry bears guarding the marble pedestal upon which the bronze clam rests. Sindbad calls out, "There is no majesty, there is no might, save in Allah, the high, the just!" and at this the bears relent, withdrawing and watching peacefully, leaving Sindbad's path open. But when Sindbad reaches the clam, he has no way to open it. He decides to bring the entire clam with him from the lair, but when he moves it from its pedestal, a powerful curse takes effect and Sindbad is transformed into a bear himself.

Thus it's said by the Wise: He who'd take the clam, is a bear in the Bird Den of Proof.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:13 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Let's try this: how would you tell the difference between this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma

and the kind of aura you would classify as a spiritual phenomenon perceived by a spiritual sense.
That's the experience I had a few times that I mentioned earlier in this thread. I'd been told it was caused by something called an aura migraine, which is a migraine without the pain but with some of the other symptoms. Only happened to me a handful of times in my life, but that was the experience that accompanied it.

Getting off topic here, but I can recall 3 occasions that it happened to me. On 2 of those occasions, as a teenager, I had been playing video games for long periods in my local video arcade when it happened. That 'scintillating scotoma' described in the article above and photophobia, so I had to go home and lie down in a dark room until it went away.

The third time I remember it happening to me was years later. By then, CRT displays had almost been completely phased out in favour of LCD displays in computers, but I was working in PC repairs at the time and a staff member left in a really old PC of theirs to be fixed, and it came with a CRT monitor. I spent half a day fixing up this old PC when I came down with the same symptoms as before and had to go lie down for an hour or so until it went away.

It's always made me think if there's a causal link between CRTs and migraines. Screen refresh rate combined with staring at it too long and too close? Anyway, off topic, it's something that I have long wondered about. Haven't had the experience in years and it only happened a handful of times anyway.

The reason I brought it up earlier in the thread was as an example (like floaters) of weird blobby transparent things in your vision that happen and have nothing to do with ghosts or people's auras or whatever. It's going to take more than chanting OM and reporting seeing vague blobby things to convince most skeptics that you've just gained some sort of vision via your pineal gland into the spirit world...
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:16 AM   #170
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Mods! Myriad is deliberately writing for a language award.

This is a violation of rule 17, the one against showing off.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:18 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
This is why I asked about seeing them in the dark, etc. "It's too dark to see his aura" is a nonsense phrase not only because auras aren't real, but because even if they were real they wouldn't be something that light is bouncing off of - if they were we would all see them all the time.
Wouldn't turning off the lights and making it dark be the best way to see auras? Otherwise weak light sources can be drowned out by ambient light and become much easier to see contrasted against the darkness.
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:02 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
Wouldn't turning off the lights and making it dark be the best way to see auras? Otherwise weak light sources can be drowned out by ambient light and become much easier to see contrasted against the darkness.
Sure, it would make sense to eliminate all the other input. But we don't have to stop with making it dark! If auras aren't shown to you by light bouncing off, you should also be able to see them through walls - unless you seriously believe that regular material walls can block psychic energy? That would be silly. Surely there's no wall at all on the astral plane.

So in the dark, through walls, but... wait! You should be able to see them with your eyes closed too! Since it's not the actual eye that's seeing them, and since even if it were the auras can be seen through things (like eyelids) you should see them with your eyes shut.

What about range? Most psychics I see statements from don't seem to feel like distance is much of a concern. They do remote viewing or telepathy from some very impressive distances. But let's be conservative and say it's just three miles because after that they'd be below the horizon and that seems like as good a place as any to stop.

Animals have auras, right? They're alive. Hell, I've seen psychics insist that *plants* have auras! Again, let's be conservative and say that bacteria, bugs, fungus, and plants do not have auras but animals all do.

So... with or without light, through walls, with your eyes shut... you should see every single aura of every animal within three miles. That's a lot of noise. You would think the psychics would complain about that more.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:21 AM   #173
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I’ve had migraine auras before. If I saw one around a person or an object I would assume that it was an error in the same areas of processing that allow me to pick out and identify a person or object from the noise of visual information anytime I’m looking at stuff. Also it would look neat and I’d get a kick out of it.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:24 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
OK, I think I get it now.
Humour me: explain how you understand it.
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Old 5th December 2017, 10:52 AM   #175
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Wonder234, do you think this effect could be made to do useful work for you or for others?
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Old 5th December 2017, 12:29 PM   #176
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I would recommend talking to a physician before opening my third eye. Related question, can you get pink eye in your third eye?
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:06 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Okay I'm calling it. "Materialist" is officially a Woo Term from now on. It's basically a shifted burden of proof version of Solipsism.

Reality exists. If I throw a rock at your head you duck. You don't get to question in an intellectual discussion anymore.
It really has turned into quite the woo buzzword! I don't get it. When I was growing up, haughtily calling someone a materialist usually meant that person was too obsessed with/concerned about wealth, property, fashion, gadgets, etc. You know, material things. The invocation of the term was still usually self-righteous, but we weren't looking down on people for believing in *********** matter.

Some of you philosophers have too much god damn time on your hands.
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Old 5th December 2017, 01:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
It really has turned into quite the woo buzzword! I don't get it.
I do. The point is to characterise the labeled people as anti-spiritual or spiritually barren. "Materialist" in the sense that you lack belief in the obvious existence of the magical soul which makes me feel so much better about myself, you joyless, evil person, you! Didn't you know Hitler was a materialist?
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Old 5th December 2017, 02:23 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I do. The point is to characterise the labeled people as anti-spiritual or spiritually barren. "Materialist" in the sense that you lack belief in the obvious existence of the magical soul which makes me feel so much better about myself, you joyless, evil person, you! Didn't you know Hitler was a materialist?
I know your mom was a materialist.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:09 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Humour me: explain how you understand it.
No offense, but to say "humor me" implies that my attempt to explain it to you would be humorous due to it's incorrectness or wrongness and that you're getting amusement from it which is kind of mean.

I've realized that I can not readily provide a logical (or otherwise) argument to support the objectivity of phenomena allegedly perceived through supernatural means. An experiment may be possible, but due to how elaborate the experiment would have to be I am not willing to carry it out. You are probably not interested in debating whether a given experiment could work in principle and neither am I.

The James Randi experiment may be faulty if there are other mundane senses we are not aware of (after all a new organ called the mesentery was classified not too long ago) or mundane senses that could intensify or change when someone gains hallucinogenic psychic perception or has it naturally.

What I am curious about is, why haven't any of the investigations yielded strong evidence?
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:16 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wonder234, do you think this effect could be made to do useful work for you or for others?
If it is a real phenomenon, then yes.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:20 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I would recommend talking to a physician before opening my third eye. Related question, can you get pink eye in your third eye?
No, hemorrhoids.
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:23 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by JesseCuster View Post
But what you described in your OP was seeing things in your vision after doing your meditation / chanting / whatever...

You said you saw auras, things that looked like ghosts, etc. How can you see things with your eyes and then say you're not seeing things with your physical senses?
Spiritual senses?
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:32 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
None of this helps me (a) determine whether spiritual phenomena and spiritual senses actually exist or (b) determine whether the aura someone might see after chanting for a while is a spiritual phenomenon perceived by a spiritual sense.

Let's try this: how would you tell the difference between this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillating_scotoma

and the kind of aura you would classify as a spiritual phenomenon perceived by a spiritual sense.
If I were arguing for my claim, I would say the phenomenon you're talking about is subjective and the phenomenon I'm talking about is objective. Of course, I don't know this, I'm just arguing for it. There may be an experiment that could be done that proves this, which would be the easier route because proving that spiritual phenomena is objective with reason alone is kind of difficult (at least for me).
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:45 PM   #185
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You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world, did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you or is it just your own thinking that has led you to that? If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was? What exactly (experiences and experiences of books, articles, videos, etc. included) has made you a skeptic?
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Old 5th December 2017, 03:57 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world, did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you or is it just your own thinking that has led you to that? If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was? What exactly (experiences and experiences of books, articles, videos, etc. included) has made you a skeptic?
As has been mentioned within this thread: many of the members here were once believers. The common thread is always the lack of evidence for paranormal claims. Every properly conducted test has shown that the paranormal claims do not stand up to tests and as a result do not exist as claimed. Once you understand the null position, and understand the burden of proof, you will begin to understand the skeptic mindset.
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Old 5th December 2017, 04:21 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
No offense, but to say "humor me" implies that my attempt to explain it to you would be humorous due to it's incorrectness or wrongness and that you're getting amusement from it which is kind of mean.
No, that's not the common meaning of "humor me." It originates from the idea that, in order to calm down a madman, one should go along with his insane suggestions as far as is reasonable, so that he doesn't feel mad. In context, therefore, it generally means "I know you may think what I'm suggesting is pointless and/or stupid, but I do actually have a reason for it that I don't want to state at this moment; could you please go along with me for the time being and all will become clear in time." In effect it's rather the opposite of how you're reading it, in that the person making the request is casting himself as the odd one.

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Old 5th December 2017, 04:34 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If it is a real phenomenon, then yes.
Do you think it is a real phenomenon?
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Old 5th December 2017, 05:02 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world.
This is simply because no one has ever produced any evidence of the paranormal. Here you are, agreeing that you can't produce any evidence either.

You came here empty handed.
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Old 5th December 2017, 05:22 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post

The James Randi experiment may be faulty if there are other mundane senses we are not aware of (after all a new organ called the mesentery was classified not too long ago) or mundane senses that could intensify or change when someone gains hallucinogenic psychic perception or has it naturally.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesentery

Quote:
The mesentery is a continuous[1][2] set of tissues which is formed by the double fold of peritoneum that attaches the intestines to the wall of the abdomen. The term mesentery is used for the small intestine and mesenteric organ is sometimes used to refer to the rest of the mesentery that incorporates the mesocolon, mesoappendix, mesosigmoid and mesorectum.[citation needed] It has been proposed for reclassification as an organ due to research at the University of Limerick in the 2010s


This is somewhat different from what you claimed.

The mesentery, "According to the editor of Gray's Anatomy Professor Susan Standring, mesentery has been known for thousands of years." This is from the same Wikipedia article.


And speaking of Wikipedia, did you read the entry on Russell's Teapot? What did you learn from it?
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Old 5th December 2017, 05:45 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world, did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you or is it just your own thinking that has led you to that? If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was? What exactly (experiences and experiences of books, articles, videos, etc. included) has made you a skeptic?
We would all change ours views when there is evidence paranormal phenomena pass experiments.
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Old 5th December 2017, 06:09 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
What I am curious about is, why haven't any of the investigations yielded strong evidence?
One might ask why the hell you put so much credence into something with literally zero evidence going for it? The mind boggles.
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Old 5th December 2017, 06:31 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world, did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you or is it just your own thinking that has led you to that? If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was? What exactly (experiences and experiences of books, articles, videos, etc. included) has made you a skeptic?
Originally Posted by jond View Post
As has been mentioned within this thread: many of the members here were once believers. The common thread is always the lack of evidence for paranormal claims. Every properly conducted test has shown that the paranormal claims do not stand up to tests and as a result do not exist as claimed. Once you understand the null position, and understand the burden of proof, you will begin to understand the skeptic mindset.
Lurker coming out of lurkerdom for a moment to confirm what Jond (and others) have said. I can only speak for myself, but this is true for me and my experience. I was raised Christian and attended religious schools from preschool through high school (ages 5 through 18 give or take), but the more I learned, both in general and about religion, the less I believed in religion. I give a lot of credit to my parents who were, and still are, Christian, but who are agnostic enough to not only question their faith on occasion, but to allow me the freedom to not accept "good Christians don't believe that so there's no point in studying it or thinking about it" as an acceptable answer. Every time I had a question that religion couldn't answer, it turned out that science could answer it, so over time, my faith and belief in religion dwindled and my interest in science grew. It turns out that I'm not good at taking things on faith alone. Science just... makes sense to me.

As for a belief in the supernatural, like others, I'd love for there to be incontrovertible evidence of aliens or bigfoot or reincarnation or psychic abilities or ghosts, etc. I'd be thrilled to find out that there's more to reality and our existence than what we know right now, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. If irrefutable evidence someday comes to light, I'll be first in line to step up and say that I was wrong, because at that point, whatever it is won't be paranormal or supernatural; it'll just be normal and natural like everything else we can prove with science.

Unfortunately, I can't point to one specific article or book or experience and say, "This is what made me stop believing in things that are only supported by faith." I challenge you to stay curious and to stick around and to keep asking questions and listening to the answers with an open mind.
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Old 5th December 2017, 07:18 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You are probably not interested in debating whether a given experiment could work in principle and neither am I.

Actually, I'd be more than interested in creating an experiment of that sort. If you explain what you think you can do (whether it eventually turns out to have a mundane explanation or not), we can find a way to test it.

Refusal to test a belief, though, tends to indicate that the proponent suspects the test would fail.


Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world, did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you or is it just your own thinking that has led you to that? If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was? What exactly (experiences and experiences of books, articles, videos, etc. included) has made you a skeptic?

Many people have answered this already. The request that propositions be testable is common sense in every area of science, math and medicine. Yet, it seems to startle and amaze people when it comes to religious or spiritual beliefs. It's all the same concept.
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:04 PM   #195
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Wonder234, have you read the Wikipedia article on Russell's Teapot? What is your reaction to it?
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Old 5th December 2017, 08:42 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world, did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you or is it just your own thinking that has led you to that? If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was? What exactly (experiences and experiences of books, articles, videos, etc. included) has made you a skeptic?
If you can objectively show even one paranormal thing in the universe, then I am sure that you would become one of the most famous people in all of recorded history.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:04 PM   #197
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Four months ago we observed a neutron star collision based on gravitational waves. We had only confirmed the existence of gravitational waves 2 years earlier. It is risible we still have to entertain questions on paranormal activity that has never been confirmed in a lab.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:04 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
No, hemorrhoids.
Third eye, not a brown eye, I feel either way thou a dosage of homeopathic ointment will cure it in days.
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Old 5th December 2017, 09:08 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world,
Pretty much.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
[...] did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you[...]?
Yes. Simple skeptical arguments.


Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
] If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was?
Skeptical arguments are based on critical thinking skills. You don't have any.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:18 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If I were arguing for my claim, I would say the phenomenon you're talking about is subjective and the phenomenon I'm talking about is objective. Of course, I don't know this, I'm just arguing for it. There may be an experiment that could be done that proves this, which would be the easier route because proving that spiritual phenomena is objective with reason alone is kind of difficult (at least for me).
Yes, establishing that the perceived phenomena are objective rather than subjective is indeed what you would need to do, and it can only be done by experiment so don't feel bad about not being able to do it by reason alone. There are many experiments which can be done to demonstrate it (like Randi's wall experiment). What they all actually demonstrate is that such phenomena are as subjective as migraine aura.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
You guys seem convinced that there's nothing paranormal about the world, did you read or watch or listen to something that convinced you or is it just your own thinking that has led you to that? If you did read or watch something, could you tell me what it was? What exactly (experiences and experiences of books, articles, videos, etc. included) has made you a skeptic?
I was also an enthusiastic believe in paranormal phenomena in my youth, but I can't point to any one experience or book which disabused me; it was more a gradual whittling away as I learned more and got older and wiser. Having said that there are certainly books that are often recommended to people beginning to learn critical thinking skills. Here are three of the most popular:

The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan

Flim Flam by James Randi

Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer

The links are to their wiki articles.

Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
What I am curious about is, why haven't any of the investigations yielded strong evidence?
They haven't yielded any evidence, weak or strong, and the explanation is surely obvious.
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