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Old 6th December 2017, 12:33 PM   #41
The Great Zaganza
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When it comes to Israel/Palestine, there is no It's-pretty-obvious-if-you-think-about-it solution to be had.
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:44 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
When it comes to Israel/Palestine, there is no It's-pretty-obvious-if-you-think-about-it solution to be had.
I noticed he never says "Palestine", always "the Palestinians".
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Old 6th December 2017, 12:54 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
I noticed he never says "Palestine", always "the Palestinians".
That's one step up from Golda Meir who denied Palestinians existed at all.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
When it comes to Israel/Palestine, there is no It's-pretty-obvious-if-you-think-about-it solution to be had.
It's sort-of like Northern Ireland but then different.

I think there's one pretty easy solution for Jerusalem, though. Nuke the place. Turn Mount Doom Temple Mount into an enormous glass crater. That pisses everyone off equally, and nobody can complain that the other party got more. See also Solomon's judgment.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:11 PM   #44
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How many are going to die because of this decision? I think it's pretty good odds that someone bombs something and declares it's revenge for this move.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:19 PM   #45
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It certainly makes the US more of a target. I wouldn't be surprised if this puts US citizens in the region in the cross hairs of radicals.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:27 PM   #46
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Classic Trump. He does basically nothing, makes news and people freak out. This magnificent embassy will be built out of the same material as our giant Southern border wall.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:30 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The Israelis declared Jerusalem as their capital decades ago. West Jerusalem is their official seat of government. However, East Jerusalem is not officially recognized by the international community as Israeli territory. Trump's preference breaks with international convention, but agrees with the official Israeli position on Jerusalem.
Upnext we will side with Taiwan as the official government of china, or as officially part of china so that the rebel government in it can finally be suppressed.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Don't worry, it won't be dominating the news for at least a few days. There's a female entertainer being accused of sexual harassment, that's good for a few more days, even though I've never heard of her.

Next time you be quiet when da Empress a broadcast, k?
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:41 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Now it's rumoured for a few days that Trump will announce to recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel, which is against conventions the UN and the international community have established since the late 60s. Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel.

First of all, Tel Aviv is not the capital of Israel. According to Israel itself, Jerusalem is the capital.

Second of all, pretending the capital is Tel Aviv is stupid. When a diplomat has to interact with the Israeli government, he/she goes to Jerusalem. The Knesset is in Jerusalem. The President and Prime Minister are in Jerusalem.

Imagine the outrage if every country in Europe refused to recognize Washington as the capital of the US and moved all their embassies to Newark, New Jersey.

I do agree that recognizing Jerusalem may inflame Palestinian passions, may lead to violence and may set the peace process back. I also agree that it's a political act aimed at a small contingent of wealthy, orthodox Republican donors and some end-of-days Christians.

But, as a talking head on CNN said today, refusing to recognize Jerusalem hasn't really led to peace in the last 50 years; recognizing basic reality probably won't disturb that lack of progress at all.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:53 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea it is almost as if the decades it has been since they had things like function infrastructure matter. Kudos on Isreal though they have managed to get to the point where fewer and fewer people can remember the last day that they had power for 24 continuous hours.
No, I get that, I totally do. And my knowledge of history is woefully incomplete. But there wasn't much in Palestine to begin with, and Jews, fresh from the Holocaust, were determined to build a nation. (I don't know how determined they were to build it in Palestine, however). And this situation evolved into a multi-generational injustice - a tragedy - I agree. But it sometimes seems that Arabs in the region are their own worst enemies. Their uprisings ended up in more dead Palestinians and expanded Israeli territory. Coming from Europe, Zionists had some knowledge of how to organize, create a state, build infrastructure and affect public opinion. And they were very motivated. The Palestinian Arabs weren't stupid; they just did not have a lot of experience in organizing. And frankly, the existence of dispossessed Palestinian Arabs was a giant boon to the political fortunes of some Muslim leaders who used it to unite factions that otherwise hated each other. Sworn enemies needed those camps. And Trump has given them a huge gift.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we can finally accept that this two state solution is never going to happen and it is political fiction. As I see it the only solutions are ethnic cleansing or formal apartheid.
You might be right, but that's a pretty big leap. There are Israelis against settlements; there is public opinion in the rest of the world; the Trump administration is not necessarily permanent. Has the whole of Jerusalem ever been considered Israeli territory in the international community? I don't think all is lost.

If official recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital plays a role in the end-times fantasies of religious nuts? That's my biggest worry, because they are crazy and very well financed. And not just the Christian nuts, either. I'll be watching events, queasily.

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Old 6th December 2017, 01:58 PM   #51
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Today was a very tense day. Everyone was very worried/scared/stressed about what Trump was going to say.

We had to wait until 8pm (Israel time) for Trump's live speech. The wait was nerve wracking. All my co-workers and friends said the same thing. Leave the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv! We do NOT need more chaos and bloodshed in the region. We became more stressed as the wait wore on. Finally, to ease the tension we all said that Trump must be bluffing/putting on a show for his base, and that his announcement would be vague meaningless words that would change nothing, so we could then relax and forget about it.

Still, about 20 of us gathered after work to wait for the statement.

After Trump made his statement we were all stunned. We walked out of the room and no one said a word. That NEVER happens with Israelis. We always have something to say. But we were too shocked. We could not believe what he had said. But we know the chaos that he has now caused across the region.

I feel sick to my core. It is almost 11 pm and I have get up at 4am for work.

Thank you to those in this thread who are civil. The rest of you can continue talking about "nuking Jerusalem", not caring about how many deaths that would cause, it just makes you "feel better" to write it. For some sick reasons. You can also talk about your "expert knowledge" about Israel even though you have never lived here.

Some of my friends will die in the next days or weeks. It could be me. (I have no family left. None. They are all dead).

People will die, all because of Trump's decision----which we did not want.
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Old 6th December 2017, 01:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
When it comes to Israel/Palestine, there is no It's-pretty-obvious-if-you-think-about-it solution to be had.
Did those oil-wealthy Arab states ever try to buy back territory from Israel so Palestinians could have their own homeland? It would have rankled for sure, but was it ever proposed to use oil wealth in this way?
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:04 PM   #53
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Zivan, what do you think of the official Israeli government position that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?

Would you say you put more value in the opinion of the international community than in the resolutions of your own democratically-elected government?

Do you attribute any deaths to your government's position on Jerusalem? How many more deaths do you think will be caused by Trump's recognition of your government's position, beyond the deaths that were going to be caused anyway by your own government?

Do you attribute any deaths by the hands of Palestinian militants over Israeli policy to the Palestinian militants themselves?
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
No, I get that, I totally do. And my knowledge of history is woefully incomplete. But there wasn't much in Palestine to begin with, and Jews, fresh from the Holocaust, were determined to build a nation. (I don't know how determined they were to build it in Palestine, however). And this situation evolved into a multi-generational injustice - a tragedy - I agree. But it sometimes seems that Arabs in the region are their own worst enemies. Their uprisings ended up in more dead Palestinians and expanded Israeli territory. My theory is that coming from Europe, Zionists had some knowledge of how to organize, create a state, build infrastructure and affect public opinion. And they were very motivated. The Palestinian Arabs weren't stupid; they just did not have a lot of experience in organizing. And frankly, the existence of dispossessed Palestinian Arabs was a giant boon to the political fortunes of some Muslim leaders who used it to unite factions that otherwise hated each other. Sworn enemies needed those camps. And Trump has given them a huge gift.
Well they happened to be living in the land god gave to the jews that was their mistake after all. That is why taking it by force was the only logical option.
Quote:
You might be right, but that's a pretty big leap. There are Israelis against settlements; there is public opinion in the rest of the world; the Trump administration is not necessarily permanent. Has the whole of Jerusalem ever been considered Israeli territory in the international community? I don't think all is lost.

If official recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital plays a role in the end-times fantasies of religious nuts? That's my biggest worry, because they are crazy and very well financed. And not just the Christian nuts, either. I'll be watching events, queasily.
The idea of a two state solution has been dead for a long time, you would be talking about forcibly relocating 10% of the israeli population out of the occupied territories. The settlements have succeeded in making the land israel. So the only solutions are recognizing it as an apartheid state or cleansing the palestinians to preserve the jewish ethnostate.

You would certainly happily give up all your land and your home to anyone who asked right?
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Did those oil-wealthy Arab states ever try to buy back territory from Israel so Palestinians could have their own homeland? It would have rankled for sure, but was it ever proposed to use oil wealth in this way?
So we need to view israel as common thugs holding the palestinians for ransom?

So much for not negotiating with terrorists.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If official recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital plays a role in the end-times fantasies of religious nuts? That's my biggest worry, because they are crazy and very well financed. And not just the Christian nuts, either. I'll be watching events, queasily.

These advisers of Trump themselves seem to be kind of religious nuts. Kushner is very small-lipped in public, but isn't he a Lubavitcher? And Greenblatt and Friedman are apparently on record (I'll have to backcheck this) as being proponents of "Greater Israel", which in its full demand means they want the land between the Nile and Euphrates as God promised. This can only be reached by war of course.

Interesting op-ed by David Hearst:

Originally Posted by Middle East Eye
[...] The support of Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud and religious nationalists from Jewish Home are a given, but they are wearily familiar. The exotic and temptingly alien support comes from a new generation of Gulf Arab superbrats - young, irreverent, dune bashing, selfie taking, in your face, and appearing in a coup near you.

Under Trump they have a formed an axis of Arab autocrats, whose geopolitical ambition is as large as their wallets. They really do think they have the power to impose their will not just on the shards of a Palestinian state, but on the region as a whole.

Under construction, at least in their minds, is a network of modern police states, each wearing a lip gloss of western liberalism. All see Likud as their natural partners, and Jared Kushner as their discreet interlocutor. [...]

Superbrats, I like that. But what would happen in a case of war? The first thing to go up in flames are their palaces and glass towers at the southern bank of the Persian gulf. And even with the (unlikely) support of US bleeding hearts on the ground, with a coalition of spoiled inbreds against the three regional 80 million nations with real armies - Iran, Turkey and Egypt, well, - let's hope cooler heads will prevail.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:08 PM   #57
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On the other hand this does raise the odds of Trumps signature war being in the middle east instead of Korea. Though both doesn't seem unlikely.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:09 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Did those oil-wealthy Arab states ever try to buy back territory from Israel so Palestinians could have their own homeland? It would have rankled for sure, but was it ever proposed to use oil wealth in this way?
It's called Jordan. They even annexed the West Bank, before going to war with Israel and losing it.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:09 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Today was a very tense day. Everyone was very worried/scared/stressed about what Trump was going to say.
Obviously, since I don't live in the region, my stake is not nearly as high as yours. But I too feel sick about the possibilities, so know that Israelis of your stripe aren't alone in your anxiety.

But are there other Israelis who think this is great? Who would prevail politically in Israel at this time?

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
People will die, all because of Trump's decision----which we did not want.
If precedence holds, plenty of them will be Palestinians.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:10 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Did those oil-wealthy Arab states ever try to buy back territory from Israel so Palestinians could have their own homeland? It would have rankled for sure, but was it ever proposed to use oil wealth in this way?

I doubt it. Syria, Lebanon and Egypt don't have all that much oil money. Also, there's the inescapable fact that Israel needs the Palestinian territories for defensive purposes. The Golan Heights are, um, high. They're hills looking down on the rest of Israel. Handing over the high ground would be tactically insane.

Still, I agree with your general point. Arab nations have happily sent arms and armor to the Palestinians when they could have used that money for civilian purposes. The reason is hate. It's that simple.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:13 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I doubt it. Syria, Lebanon and Egypt don't have all that much oil money. Also, there's the inescapable fact that Israel needs the Palestinian territories for defensive purposes. The Golan Heights are, um, high. They're hills looking down on the rest of Israel. Handing over the high ground would be tactically insane.
Makes it easy to justify Russia's annexation of the crimea. Strategic goals win out and it is wrong to criticize russia for this. Might does make right.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:17 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
How many are going to die because of this decision? I think it's pretty good odds that someone bombs something and declares it's revenge for this move.
No JREF prize for predicting that a lot of people are going to die because of this decision. Given the agenda of our fascist demagogue and unregistered sex offender-in-chief, it's not entirely crazy to suspect that might be the intent.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:17 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That would certainly explain my lack of sympathy for the Palestinians.
There are regular people, being used as pawns in dynamics that they can't control. In the 1960s the dispute was about territory. Territorial disputes can be resolved. Holy wars can't. It has become very convenient for some Arab and other Muslim nations to have this sore festering; it helps hard-liners on both sides. That includes Trump as well. I have sympathy for anyone caught up in that BS.

I hope you're not among the faithful End Times enthusiasts. You bring something to the board. But if that is where you're coming from, it taints any legitimate conservative points you might make.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:20 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Makes it easy to justify Russia's annexation of the crimea. Strategic goals win out and it is wrong to criticize russia for this. Might does make right.
Russia did vote for the resolution condemning settlements, though. In this case I'm somewhat relieved about their regional influence. Venal beats crazy religious in my book.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:26 PM   #65
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Israel is a sovereign nation-state. Jerusalem is their capital - which, as the only sovereign nation-state that controls any part of Jerusalem, is perfectly valid and entirely appropriate.

Now if only the anti-Semitic demagogues in neighboring nation-states (and the anti-Semitic demagogues elsewhere in the world for that matter, including the "Western" world) could be reasoned with. But you can't reason with the unreasonable, sad to say.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:27 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Zivan, what do you think of the official Israeli government position that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?

Would you say you put more value in the opinion of the international community than in the resolutions of your own democratically-elected government?

Do you attribute any deaths to your government's position on Jerusalem? How many more deaths do you think will be caused by Trump's recognition of your government's position, beyond the deaths that were going to be caused anyway by your own government?

Do you attribute any deaths by the hands of Palestinian militants over Israeli policy to the Palestinian militants themselves?

I do not think you understand....

I, and everyone I know are in shock right now. Security has been stepped up. I just told a friend not to go to Jerusalem tomorrow because there may be road blocks and he will not be able to get back to work Sunday morning (work week here is Sun - thurs).

We have been told to not be in large groups anyway (difficult in a tiny country).

Everyone is in danger. I am numb.

And you expect me to get into a political discussion with you? Now???? While you are safe far away, and I am in danger?

You seem to have no empathy, or understand the situation on the ground here. Now.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we need to view israel as common thugs holding the palestinians for ransom?

So much for not negotiating with terrorists.
So you're relying on the rule of so? I personally am not uniformly against negotiating with terrorists, even if I agreed with that description. It's just a form of asymmetrical warfare employed for achieving political goals. At least it used to be; now it seems to be violence for the hell of it. Or an orgasm for end-of-the-world types.

I just wondered if anyone had tried it. Territorial disputes can be resolved. Holy wars can't. How many deaths do you suppose Yasser Arafat caused? And were most of them Israeli or Palestinian? I get that you're angry but I don't cede the moral high ground to anyone in this dispute, except Israelis (and Arabs) committed to peacefully changing Israel's domestic policy re: occupied territories.

I can only hope that the rule of unintended consequences kicks in and heads off or at least mitigates the disaster this has the potential to be. Could anything cause Israel to walk back its claim to all of Jerusalem?

Are Trump's Saudi pals going to pat him on the back for this?
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:47 PM   #68
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** advertisment for the parallel thread in the History subforum where especially ddt does a wonderful job in educating people who don't know much about the general conflict **
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:55 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Today was a very tense day. Everyone was very worried/scared/stressed about what Trump was going to say.
`
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Obviously, since I don't live in the region, my stake is not nearly as high as yours. But I too feel sick about the possibilities, so know that Israelis of your stripe aren't alone in your anxiety.
T
hank you for your kind words.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But are there other Israelis who think this is great? Who would prevail politically in Israel at this time?
I know (from the news) that that there are some Israelis who bizarrely think this is great. I do not know any personally. I asked my boss today (who is as sick/shocked about this as I am) if he had any friends/family that thought differently than him. He looked at me like he was shocked I would even ask such a thing and said they all think the same as him about it.

No one knows what will happen next politically.


Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
People will die, all because of Trump's decision----which we did not want.
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
If precedence holds, plenty of them will be Palestinians.
The Palestinians have already planned "Three days of rage" and to target Israelis (that includes Arab Israelis). Westerners do not seem to care about deaths of Arabs if they are also Israeli citizens. That does not make sense to me.
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Old 6th December 2017, 02:57 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well they happened to be living in the land god gave to the jews that was their mistake after all. That is why taking it by force was the only logical option.
They were refugees who saw forming a Jewish state as the only possible means forward. I don't think they were relying on God so much as on statements made by the British government. And some of them probably weren't against alternatives to Palestine.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The idea of a two state solution has been dead for a long time, you would be talking about forcibly relocating 10% of the israeli population out of the occupied territories.
Then Trump didn't kill it, did he? And Israel has removed some settlers, there's no inherent reason to believe it can't be done.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The settlements have succeeded in making the land israel.
Not really.
WaPo: Israeli police begin forced removal of Amona settlers in the West Bank

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So the only solutions are recognizing it as an apartheid state or cleansing the palestinians to preserve the jewish ethnostate.
Your imagination may not be the final word in what's possible.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You would certainly happily give up all your land and your home to anyone who asked right?
You understand what a load of straw this is, right?

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Old 6th December 2017, 03:05 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
No one knows what will happen next politically.

Best thing I would think is you get Netanyahoo out of the way over one of his corruption cases and present a friendlier face to the region. I understand you people are shocked, and thanks for sharing your view with us, but I also think the really important players are wary of what is played here and nobody of them wants war.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:34 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Israel is a sovereign nation-state. Jerusalem is their capital - which, as the only sovereign nation-state that controls any part of Jerusalem, is perfectly valid and entirely appropriate.
Sovereignty is not a one-way street. It has to be recognized to mean much. The rest of the world does not agree that the sovereign state of Israel includes all of Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Now if only the anti-Semitic demagogues in neighboring nation-states (and the anti-Semitic demagogues elsewhere in the world for that matter, including the "Western" world) could be reasoned with.
The anti-Semitic demagogues would be screwed without their anti-Israel narrative. They need it to exist. For very reasonable reasons. But assuming I'm wrong. How would you go about reasoning with them over the issue of Israel? "Israel has nukes, you don't, shut up?" I don't think that's a solution. "Hitler took their house, so they're taking your house, see? It all works out!"

Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
But you can't reason with the unreasonable, sad to say.
And that includes those Israelis who think that they should occupy as much of the Middle East as they want, because they want it. You think those settlers are being "reasonable"? No, they are being deliberately provocative, and I don't really blame them, but they are dangerous ideologues. They don't have to live in trailers on the West Bank. The situation is a tragedy, born of an earlier tragedy, and of long-fallen empires, and who wins? Hard-liners on both sides. Defense contractors. The individuals getting pieces of the $100B or so Germany has paid in reparations.

I'd love to see Jews and Muslims unite to fleece evangelical Christians with tours of so-called holy sites. That would be a reasonable solution, IMO.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:54 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Thank you to those in this thread who are civil. The rest of you can continue talking about "nuking Jerusalem", not caring about how many deaths that would cause, it just makes you "feel better" to write it. For some sick reasons.
My apologies. That was over the line. That was my cynicism about the endless "peace process" that I don't think I'll see a successful conclusion in my lifetime (nor yours I guess). And the status of Jerusalem is one of the principal stumbling points there. FWIW, I didn't mean casualties with that, just that no-one could get the place.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:56 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Would it really be beneficial to Israel or its leaders if five million US Jews would immigrate to Israel?
In the 1940s and 1950s, the Mizrahim provided cheap labour that the Zionist founders found themselves too good for (and the Mossad helped a hand with that migration with bombing campaigns in Iraq and Egypt). Ditto the Russian Jews that migrated in the 1990s. But well-educated, good earning US Jews? They'd only be competition.
Netenyahu would use it to project himself as a new Ezra, and if they brought their capital with them just think what it would do for house prices, a massive boost for the property-owning classes he actually represents.

The Blood and Soil settler movement would adore the idea, so Netenyahu couldn't say a word in opposition to it without going the way of Rabin.
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Old 6th December 2017, 03:58 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
That's just a bit of play for the gallery. Amona is an outpost, an "illegal" settlement of only 200 people that's not endorsed by the government. The total number of inhabitants in the settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem is about 800,000.

Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'd love to see Jews and Muslims unite to fleece evangelical Christians with tours of so-called holy sites. That would be a reasonable solution, IMO.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:13 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
My apologies. That was my cynicism about the endless "peace process" that I don't think I'll see a successful conclusion in my lifetime (nor yours I guess). And the status of Jerusalem is one of the principal stumbling points there. FWIW, I didn't mean casualties with that, just that no-one could get the place.
The peace process has been a sham after Rabin's murder. He made the mistake of actually seeking peace before total victory, and paid the price.

I see a conflict arising within Israel, between the Blood and Soil movement and the Israelis who pay and occasionally fight for them. Another intifada will not be popular with the latter group, who will lay the blame on Netenyahu. This is a purely symbolic move, of no practical value, creating unknowable risks for Israel and Israelis just when Netenyahu is under the cosh. What a slimeball that man is.

A perfect pairing with Trump, of course.
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Old 6th December 2017, 04:46 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Makes it easy to justify Russia's annexation of the crimea. Strategic goals win out and it is wrong to criticize russia for this. Might does make right.

Dude, what?

First of all, I said it was one consideration, not the only consideration.

Second, has Russia been under constant threat of attack from Crimea for seventy years? Did Crimea invade Russia on the holiest day of the Russian year?

False equivalency is false.
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Old 6th December 2017, 05:08 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Dude, what?

First of all, I said it was one consideration, not the only consideration.

Second, has Russia been under constant threat of attack from Crimea for seventy years? Did Crimea invade Russia on the holiest day of the Russian year?

False equivalency is false.
Do you really believe that a clique of European Jews defended themselves out of Europe and into possession of so much Palestinian land and property, while the aggression has all been Arab? Don't you find that bizarre?

The Balfour Declaration is a century old, and was predicted to cause a century of conflict : that was a rhetorical century, of course, but not inaccurate. And there's no end in sight, because no Israeli leader can declare peace with the nationalist project incomplete, which it is as long as any Arabs remain in the Land. From Dan to Beersheba, as promised. Blood and Soil and God, what a toxic combination, and with Netenyahu involved you can add "and Profit".
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Old 6th December 2017, 07:39 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Do you really believe that a clique of European Jews defended themselves out of Europe and into possession of so much Palestinian land and property, while the aggression has all been Arab? Don't you find that bizarre?

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything even remotely like this. I said that Israel's desire to keep the Golan Heights has a tactical component because they've been attacked from that border before. To my knowledge, Israel was not the aggressor in any war ever.

In any case, it's historically wrong to say that Jews took possession of Palestinian land. Palestine was an absolute wasteland when both Jews and Arabs starting building a presence at the turn of the 20th century.
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:32 PM   #80
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Please forgive my cynicism, but I think that Trump just trolled the bulk of "the Arab world" which is in fact a fractious bunch of quarreling narcissists, and about 2/3 of the useful idiots who go along with the narrative that holds Israel to be wrong by default simply because the sun comes up. That covers most of Europe, and a variety of noise makers in the UN.

And having trolled them all, he sits back and watches for the reaction. But unlike very talented trolls, he'll not be able to STFU and just watch the fun. He'll twit some silly nonsense in a few days ...

Bibi thinks Trump has his back. I think that's about as funny as this joke gets.
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