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Old 6th December 2017, 09:37 PM   #81
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Old 7th December 2017, 03:19 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything even remotely like this. I said that Israel's desire to keep the Golan Heights has a tactical component because they've been attacked from that border before. To my knowledge, Israel was not the aggressor in any war ever.
Cough cough. 1956. And define "aggressor"; in 1967, the Israeli army attacked first.
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
In any case, it's historically wrong to say that Jews took possession of Palestinian land. Palestine was an absolute wasteland when both Jews and Arabs starting building a presence at the turn of the 20th century.
Do you have a reference for that claim?
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Old 7th December 2017, 03:56 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
So you're relying on the rule of so? I personally am not uniformly against negotiating with terrorists, even if I agreed with that description. It's just a form of asymmetrical warfare employed for achieving political goals. At least it used to be; now it seems to be violence for the hell of it. Or an orgasm for end-of-the-world types.

I just wondered if anyone had tried it. Territorial disputes can be resolved. Holy wars can't. How many deaths do you suppose Yasser Arafat caused? And were most of them Israeli or Palestinian? I get that you're angry but I don't cede the moral high ground to anyone in this dispute, except Israelis (and Arabs) committed to peacefully changing Israel's domestic policy re: occupied territories.

I can only hope that the rule of unintended consequences kicks in and heads off or at least mitigates the disaster this has the potential to be. Could anything cause Israel to walk back its claim to all of Jerusalem?

Are Trump's Saudi pals going to pat him on the back for this?
Exactly god gave the entire region to the jewish people and they will take it no matter how long the current residents have been living there. It is just like how the trail of tears was a high point in american history, Jackson wouldn't let laws of man or morals stand in the way of getting the land god had given to the american people from the savages. Same thing with taking Jerusalem from the muslims, Israel would never let boarders stand in the way of what is theirs by grace of god.
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Old 7th December 2017, 04:00 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
They were refugees who saw forming a Jewish state as the only possible means forward. I don't think they were relying on God so much as on statements made by the British government. And some of them probably weren't against alternatives to Palestine.

Then Trump didn't kill it, did he? And Israel has removed some settlers, there's no inherent reason to believe it can't be done.
It only removed settlers because they were is tactically unsupportable locations, the strategically sound ones are never going anywhere. And there is a difference between forceably relocating 10,000 people from tactically unsound locations and 800,000. We are talking 13% of the total population after all.

But by right of conquest it is theirs and we need to stop this idea that you can't just take what you want.
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Old 7th December 2017, 04:02 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Netenyahu would use it to project himself as a new Ezra, and if they brought their capital with them just think what it would do for house prices, a massive boost for the property-owning classes he actually represents.

The Blood and Soil settler movement would adore the idea, so Netenyahu couldn't say a word in opposition to it without going the way of Rabin.
It is nice to see a moto that works so well for both the Nazi party and jewish settlers.
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Old 7th December 2017, 04:04 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Dude, what?

First of all, I said it was one consideration, not the only consideration.

Second, has Russia been under constant threat of attack from Crimea for seventy years? Did Crimea invade Russia on the holiest day of the Russian year?

False equivalency is false.
It was enough to make your argument on, so stand by your argument as a principle or not.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:41 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Netenyahu has repeatedly sworn on his mother's grave and evey other Jewish mother's grave that he will never accept a two-state solution, and he was one of those who called for Rabiln to be killed as a race-traitor for doing so. It's a founding principle of Likud and defines the Revisionists (who tried to kill ben Gurion for pretending to accept it).
Except he has said he would accept a two state solution, and the Likud platform was redrafted long ago to remove that plank.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:46 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Last time I checked, you didn't get people on your side by pissing them off first.
At the same time, if it becomes clear you can't get them on your side, then not pissing them off doesn't accomplish anything.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So we are formally giving up on a two state solution, figure we will endorse apartheid or ethnic cleansing?
Who's giving up on the two state solution?

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
The only upside to this, as I can see it, is that never again any Arab nation or the Palestinians will view the USA as a honest peace broker. Of course, it never was.
Why should this change any negotiations? There never was any proposal where Israel would give up Jerusalem entirely, the only issue of contention is if "Palestine" would have it's capital in East Jerusalem.

The bottom line is this really doesn't change anything. The Palestinian side is upset soley because they think allowing Israel to have the capital they want lends legitimacy to the very existence of Israel.
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Old 7th December 2017, 06:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Who's giving up on the two state solution?
The US. We are formally recognizing the conquest of Jerusalem now, why stop there? Really long ago the boarders became untenable as a result of the settlements.
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:32 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
At the same time, if it becomes clear you can't get them on your side, then not pissing them off doesn't accomplish anything.



Who's giving up on the two state solution?



Why should this change any negotiations? There never was any proposal where Israel would give up Jerusalem entirely, the only issue of contention is if "Palestine" would have it's capital in East Jerusalem.
^Yes, exactly.


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The bottom line is this really doesn't change anything. The Palestinian side is upset soley because they think allowing Israel to have the capital they want lends legitimacy to the very existence of Israel.
Yes. We (Israelis) consider Jerusalem the capital no matter what anyone says. But we were tense about the embassy move from TLV to Jerusalem because of the violence that is coming from the Palestinian reaction. They plan the "three days of rage" beginning tomorrow (friday). We just do not want more chaos and violence. But there will be anyway.

It will be centered in Jerusalem, but we were told this morning to be alert and careful in Tel Aviv too (I am in Tel Aviv now) because violence may break out here too.

I am still going to the shuk tomorrow and running errands as usual. We have been through this many times before. We can not just sit home and hide just because the Palestinians are going on a rage. Again.
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:36 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The US. We are formally recognizing the conquest of Jerusalem now, why stop there? Really long ago the boarders became untenable as a result of the settlements.
You really are clueless and have no idea what you are talking about regarding the Israeli/Palestinian issues.
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Old 7th December 2017, 07:40 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
You really are clueless and have no idea what you are talking about regarding the Israeli/Palestinian issues.
It is clear that Israel will take what ever it chooses and nothing can stop it and anyone who objects is a terrorist. That is the simple reality of it.
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Old 7th December 2017, 08:33 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is clear that Israel will take what ever it chooses and nothing can stop it and anyone who objects is a terrorist. That is the simple reality of it.
You just proved what I said in my previous post. Good job.
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Old 7th December 2017, 09:36 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well they happened to be living in the land god gave to the jews that was their mistake after all. That is why taking it by force was the only logical option.
Zionists prior to 1947 purchased the lands they built on.

During the Israeli war of independence, Muslim Arabs who fled their lands were not allowed back, and their lands were taken by the state. This also happened to Jewish refugees from areas that were taken by Arab forces.

Today Zionists still purchase lands from Arab land-owners. Characterizing this as “taking by force” is at best uninformed, and at worst disinformation motivated by bigotry and a desire to be incendiary.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The idea of a two state solution has been dead for a long time, you would be talking about forcibly relocating 10% of the israeli population out of the occupied territories. The settlements have succeeded in making the land israel. So the only solutions are recognizing it as an apartheid state or cleansing the palestinians to preserve the jewish ethnostate.
The only obstacle to a two state solution is that there hasn’t been any serious negotiations about it since Arafat walked out of Camp David back in 2001. Abbas keeps coming up with new reasons not to come to the table.

Settlements can be moved, or not, lands can be swapped, borders can be negotiated. It all requires negotiations.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You would certainly happily give up all your land and your home to anyone who asked right?
A straw man, and an incendiary one at that.

Last edited by Mycroft; 7th December 2017 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 7th December 2017, 09:46 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is clear that Israel will take what ever it chooses and nothing can stop it and anyone who objects is a terrorist. That is the simple reality of it.
One thing that could stop it would be a negotiated two state solution with clearly recognized borders, yet getting the Palestinian side to the table is seen as wrong for some reason?
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Old 7th December 2017, 09:50 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Zionists prior to 1947 purchased the lands they built on.

During the Israeli war of independence, Muslim Arabs who fled their lands were not allowed back, and their lands were taken by the state. This also happened to Jewish refugees from areas that were taken by Arab forces.

Today Zionists still purchase lands from Arab land-owners. Characterizing this as “taking by force” is at best uninformed, and at worst disinformation motivated by bigotry and a desire to be incendiary.
Plenty certainly are. Say the army decides it needs it as a command post, there you go you lose your house. Sucks to be you. Or you could try to live upstairs and get shot.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/11/28/...can-stem-abuse


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Settlements can be moved, or not, lands can be swapped, borders can be negotiated. It all requires negotiations.
Yep and every year the boarders of what will have to stay Israeli get larger. Seems to be working quite well as a low intensity conflict.
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Old 7th December 2017, 09:52 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
One thing that could stop it would be a negotiated two state solution with clearly recognized borders, yet getting the Palestinian side to the table is seen as wrong for some reason?
There kind of already are boarders, we are just going to pretend they aren't there and don't matter because it is inconvenient for them to stay as they are.
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Old 7th December 2017, 01:00 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Plenty certainly are. Say the army decides it needs it as a command post, there you go you lose your house. Sucks to be you. Or you could try to live upstairs and get shot.
War sucks all around. We should put an end to this one especially for the sake of the Palestinian people who, being the weaker party, suffer even more than the Israelis.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep and every year the boarders of what will have to stay Israeli get larger. Seems to be working quite well as a low intensity conflict.
Again, the fastest and easiest way to put a halt to it is to bring both sides together to negotiate final borders.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There kind of already are boarders, we are just going to pretend they aren't there and don't matter because it is inconvenient for them to stay as they are.
There are armistice lines that are now called "the Green Line". At the end of the Israeli war of independence all sides agreed they are not final borders.
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Old 7th December 2017, 04:03 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
War sucks all around. We should put an end to this one especially for the sake of the Palestinian people who, being the weaker party, suffer even more than the Israelis.
From someone who's clearly pro-Israel, that sounds pretty paternalistic.

But then, there must first be someone to talk to on the Palestinian side. Or, the Palestinians must first recognize Israel as a Jewish state - never mind that 20-25% of the citizens of Israel are not Jewish. Or whatever the excuse-du-jour from the Israeli government is not to talk.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Again, the fastest and easiest way to put a halt to it is to bring both sides together to negotiate final borders.

There are armistice lines that are now called "the Green Line". At the end of the Israeli war of independence all sides agreed they are not final borders.
That doesn't invalidate the fact that all territory beyond the Green Line counts as occupied territory. Building settlements there which house 100s of 1000s Jewish Israelis, with their exclusive "slegs vir Jode" roads contravenes international law. Surely you'll also advocate that Israel revert the West Bank (and East Jerusalem) to the status quo ante, i.e., evacuates all those illegal settlers before starting negotiations?

And yes, Israel has been using the excuse of "military use" for obvious civilian settlements in the West Bank/East Jerusalem, that's a plain fact.
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Old 7th December 2017, 04:14 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Yes. We (Israelis) consider Jerusalem the capital no matter what anyone says.
Oh, but you do value when others recognize it as such as well. It may not be a big bargaining chip, but it nevertheless is one, and Trump gave that away. Next he'll try to press the Palestinians into accepting Abu Dis and not East Jerusalem as capital. The new Saudi king may already have done so, though the content in that NYT article is contested by other sources.
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Old 7th December 2017, 04:18 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
You really are clueless and have no idea what you are talking about regarding the Israeli/Palestinian issues.
Do you also have an actual argument against what ponderingturtle said?

Because that's exactly what the settlements are - facts on the ground that are very hard, if not impossible to reverse. All Israeli governments have clearly said that large settlement blocks like Ariel are unnegotiable and must remain Israeli in a final settlement. And as these large blocks run along most of the Green Line between Israel and the West Bank, there's also little opportunity for compensation elsewhere. Or it must be Lieberman's proposal to give Arab villages in the Galilee to the Palestinian state.
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Old 7th December 2017, 05:10 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly god gave the entire region to the jewish people and they will take it no matter how long the current residents have been living there. It is just like how the trail of tears was a high point in american history, Jackson wouldn't let laws of man or morals stand in the way of getting the land god had given to the american people from the savages. Same thing with taking Jerusalem from the muslims, Israel would never let boarders stand in the way of what is theirs by grace of god.
More straw than a Bethlehem manger. I'm not sure who exactly you're arguing with but it's not me.
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Old 7th December 2017, 08:31 PM   #103
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The misspellings of “borders” as “boarders” in this thread are entertaining. When I reas that I imagine that the Palestinians are just renting rooms at Yitzak’s boardinghouse awaiting a settlement deal.


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Old 8th December 2017, 09:33 AM   #104
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Well, I guess I don't have to tell you the consequences so far, nothing unexpected or too dramatic.

As to the broader thread topic though, Trump has, also on Wednesday, called on Saudi Arabia to immediately and completely lift the blockade of Yemen. Long overdue and very important as the humanitarian situation is absolutely grave.
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Old 8th December 2017, 02:14 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything even remotely like this. I said that Israel's desire to keep the Golan Heights has a tactical component because they've been attacked from that border before.
Your argument is that, having stolen the coastal lands, Israel is justified in stealing more land to secure the proceeds. Where's the limit to that?

Quote:
To my knowledge, Israel was not the aggressor in any war ever.
Which is to say a clique of Europen Jews defended themselves from 1890's Europe into possession of the lands and property of so many native Palestinians in 1949, said natives mostly being expelled, living in strange lands amongst strangers, penniless and dependent on the UN for shelter and food.

In fact the Yishuv launched a long-planned war of conquest and ethnic cleansing in which they had some success, particularly against unarmed civilians, but ultimately failed to complete on the first attempt, despite outnumbering and out-gunning what armed opposition there was. Hence the second and more successful effort in 1967.

Out of interest, how do you imagine it happened?

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In any case, it's historically wrong to say that Jews took possession of Palestinian land. Palestine was an absolute wasteland when both Jews and Arabs starting building a presence at the turn of the 20th century.
Rubbish. Palestine was one of the most prosperous districts of the Ottoman Empire for centuries. It was also the most urbanised and most literate. You have fallen for Zionist propaganda.
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Old 8th December 2017, 02:28 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Except he has said he would accept a two state
solution...
and afterwards repeated that he wouldn't, just to make sure everybody understood he didn't mean it. A genuine act of such profound betrayal would have seen him long dead by now.
Quote:
... and the Likud platform was redrafted long ago to remove that plank.
The people who joined Likud when it was the fundamental plank (many of them because it was, of course) haven't changed their minds, and nobody think it's anything other than window-dressing for people like you to reference.
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Old 8th December 2017, 03:17 PM   #107
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Don't know if this will be the end of it but violence erupting is hurting mostly Palestinians. Only one reported dead - a Palestinian. I guess I can understand the anger that leads to spontaneous riots, but these really weren't spontaneous as far as I can tell. CNN reported that Friday was to be the culmination but I read somewhere that Friday was going to be the beginning.

At the risk of drawing more straw-man attacks, I really have to wonder how long it will take Palestinians to realizing that uprisings and attacks are not helping. Which of course means I must be OK with Israel seizing land because God gave it to them. Just to save a certain poster the trouble of playing that broken record again.

Off to see what Al Jazeera says.

ETA: Two Palestinians killed. I just hope it doesn't get worse.

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Old 8th December 2017, 03:26 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
At the risk of drawing more straw-man attacks, I really have to wonder how long it will take Palestinians to realizing that uprisings and attacks are not helping.

Well what if your grandfather already figured out that nothing in his power seems to help? What would that do to your decision-making process?
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