IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , Capitol riot , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

Reply
Old 7th January 2022, 10:23 PM   #1
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,266
Trump's Coup - Part 3

Mod InfoContinued from here. As is usual the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from previous threads.
Posted By:Agatha




To repeat:

Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Agreed. They needlessly complicate things.

Suppose Pence went along with the cockamamie scheme to refuse to certify electors, nobody gets 270 votes in the EC, the election gets thrown into the House, and Trump wins ("wins"). Would you regard that as a coup?
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Depends on the specifics, but probably yes, with the lion's share of the blame on Pence for actually taking the unconstitutional steps to make it happen. Still can't see any plausible way for him to refuse the certification that the action wouldn't be challenged, and Pence likely going to the hoosegow.

And that's how I see the whole crew; lots of yapping about what they're gonna do, but too timid to actually do it.
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
So it's probably an attempted coup.

Pence would not get the lion's share of blame: It starts with the president. Pence would have been following orders ........

Sounds like we are all in agreement now.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by Agatha; 8th January 2022 at 05:54 AM.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 12:07 AM   #2
Tommok
Scholar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Admittedly, I was powerfully turned off by his "it's not up for debate" approach (which I note you didn't address). That's not what intelligent people say. That's what exceptionally stupid people say when they can't argue their point yet demand it be accepted as fact. Theres a term for that.
In this context it means "there is great agreement among people who have actually studied the subject and understand the concept and possible versions of a coup." He then goes on to demonstrate just that by pointing out and explaining some of those categories which are often left unconsidered by people who have not studied this at all. He also names and characterizes his sources. So he, in fact, DOES argue the point.

Tommok
Tommok is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 12:08 AM   #3
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,467
Seems like just so much dithering over finer details. To me attempting to forcibly interfere with the lawful transfer of power crosses a line, and after that point semantics doesn't seem terribly useful for trying to minimize the significance.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 01:56 AM   #4
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 23,376
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Seems like just so much dithering over finer details. To me attempting to forcibly interfere with the lawful transfer of power crosses a line, and after that point semantics doesn't seem terribly useful for trying to minimize the significance.
Reminds me of Kellyanne's "Alternative facts" when trying to spin Sean Spicer's lies.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 04:01 AM   #5
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
 
Crazy Chainsaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,351
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Freaking Trump supporting morons yesterday claim Jan. 6 was a set up by Dems and FBI:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
MTG and Matt Gaetz Brought out a video where they Accused Ray Epps of being an FBI plant, Ray Epps is an Oklahoma Bombing Conspiracy theorist who believed the FBI blew up babies in the Alfred P Morrow building to destroy the Militia Movement!
He is an Original Waco Whacko Oath Keeper nut job!
Crazy Chainsaw is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 05:31 AM   #6
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,237
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Seems like just so much dithering over finer details. To me attempting to forcibly interfere with the lawful transfer of power crosses a line, and after that point semantics doesn't seem terribly useful for trying to minimize the significance.
the problem is Thermal's argument appears to be that it didn't feel significant so it's not a coup
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 06:58 AM   #7
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,190
I prefer my insurrections to be free range.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 07:00 AM   #8
SteveAitch
Critical Thinker
 
SteveAitch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: St Aines
Posts: 460
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I prefer my insurrections to be free range.
Organic free range?
__________________
If this board is too exciting for you, try my Flickr pages. Warning: may cause narcolepsy!

Some people call me 'strange'. I prefer 'unconventional'. But I'm willing to compromise and accept 'eccentric'...
SteveAitch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 07:06 AM   #9
Apathia
Philosopher
 
Apathia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,190
Originally Posted by SteveAitch View Post
Organic free range?
Yes, but you just can't know what Internet trash sites those insurrectionist chickens have been pecking through.
__________________
"At the Supreme Court level where we work, 90 percent of any decision is emotional. The rational part of us supplies the reasons for supporting our predilections."
Justice William O. Douglas

"Humans aren't rational creatures but rationalizing creatures."
Author Unknown

Last edited by Apathia; 8th January 2022 at 07:08 AM.
Apathia is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 07:14 AM   #10
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,736
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
the problem is Thermal's argument appears to be that it didn't feel significant so it's not a coup
I think the problem is that Thermal landed on that position on 1/6 and nothing we’ve learned since has been allowed to change that. Classic fitting the data to the theory entree, with a side of cherry-picking.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 10:04 AM   #11
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 17,297
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I think the problem is that Thermal landed on that position on 1/6 and nothing we’ve learned since has been allowed to change that. Classic fitting the data to the theory entree, with a side of cherry-picking.
You are both wrong, and painfully so, but I'm bored to death repeating to you.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 10:15 AM   #12
Venom
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 5,464
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Seems like just so much dithering over finer details. To me attempting to forcibly interfere with the lawful transfer of power crosses a line, and after that point semantics doesn't seem terribly useful for trying to minimize the significance.
Eh. I see this subforum as one of the few opportunities to be able to go over the fine details. This was never about whether the attack was bad for "USA Politics" or not. At least not here.
Venom is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 11:00 AM   #13
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,736
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are both wrong, and painfully so, but I'm bored to death repeating to you.
The internet has a long memory. You’ve been saying the same thing since during the insurrection. You’d made up your mind before it was even over and no evidence has since shaken your belief.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2022, 09:49 PM   #14
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 17,297
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
The internet has a long memory.
I assume you meant to link to this post:

Originally Posted by Thermal
Unless they have some actual plan or means to seize power, no. It's just a Dildo Storm of nitwits, who are in for an unpleasant acquaintance with the legal system. .

Let's watch, shall we, as the Dildo Storm is swept into inconsequence by Capitol Security.

Yes...yes, that's what I said, and stand by it. They were in fact nitwits. They are in fact experiencing an unpleasant acquaintance with our legal system. They were substantially inconsequential, as the certification resumed a few hours later. This is rather what I meant by getting tired of repeating the same thing. Do you want a gold star for understanding what "repeating" means? Dunno where you are going with this.

Quote:
You’ve been saying the same thing since during the insurrection. You’d made up your mind before it was even over and no evidence has since shaken your belief.
I love it that you are blind to the irony of your comment here.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2022, 07:38 AM   #15
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,736
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes...yes, that's what I said, and stand by it. They were in fact nitwits. They are in fact experiencing an unpleasant acquaintance with our legal system. They were substantially inconsequential, as the certification resumed a few hours later. This is rather what I meant by getting tired of repeating the same thing. Do you want a gold star for understanding what "repeating" means? Dunno where you are going with this.
The point that you're missing is that you jumped to a conclusion and have not changed it despite evidence we've gotten since then. The fundamental tenant of skepticism is to question assumptions, especially one's own. You've failed to do with, on numerous occasions, for no rational reason. The rationalizations you do give, when you give any at all, are filled with logical fallacies, primarily cherry-picking.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I love it that you are blind to the irony of your comment here.
In order for it to be ironic, I would have had to jumped to immediate conclusion. I did not do that. I didn't even start calling it a coup until November 2021 because I was trying to understand all the aspects of what had happened, and I knew more information would come out in the weeks and months following. Honestly, there will continue to be more information as investigations continue, but every bit of it so far has pointed in the direction of this being an attempted coup.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th January 2022, 12:23 PM   #16
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,868
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes...yes, that's what I said, and stand by it. They were in fact nitwits. They are in fact experiencing an unpleasant acquaintance with our legal system. They were substantially inconsequential, as the certification resumed a few hours later. This is rather what I meant by getting tired of repeating the same thing. Do you want a gold star for understanding what "repeating" means? Dunno where you are going with this.
The January 6th insurrectionists were "substantially inconsequential".

This ace threat assessment has been brought to you the same person who offered this chilling warning about what might happen if statues are torn down:
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Any mob, with any motivation, being empowered by precedent to do anything they like without regard for the procedural will of the actual people. For a start.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2022, 04:03 AM   #17
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 27,393
One of the Capitol rioters, a non-arrestee who has been expecting to plea guilty during her arraignment on Monday as part of a plea agreement, has just been charged but curiously again not arrested after a fatal drunk-driving accident in Missouri. She was allegedly intoxicated and driving the wrong way on the interstate when she smashed into another vehicle, killing one of its occupants and injuring another.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2022, 06:43 AM   #18
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,649
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
... a non-arrestee ... but curiously again not arrested ...
Not clear on your terminology, what is a non-arrested arrested person??
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th January 2022, 10:22 PM   #19
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,467
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
One of the Capitol rioters, a non-arrestee who has been expecting to plea guilty during her arraignment on Monday as part of a plea agreement, has just been charged but curiously again not arrested after a fatal drunk-driving accident in Missouri. She was allegedly intoxicated and driving the wrong way on the interstate when she smashed into another vehicle, killing one of its occupants and injuring another.
Are we going through another phase of trying not to jail people unless absolutely necessary, due to COVID?
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 07:36 AM   #20
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,816
Minions at work:

Quote:
Groups supporting former President Donald Trump in Arizona and Michigan sent fake documents to the National Archives falsely showing that he had won those states' Electoral College votes.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 04:22 PM   #21
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,853
I have come to change my opinion on this attempted coup since the insurrection. Even then I thought it was a fairly spontaneous mentally-ill Dump affair.

But now it is coming out that the Dump insiders were planning for months how they would overturn the election they believed Trump would lose. (Some of this is probably already in the thread, sorry.)

'Do you realize you're describing a coup?': MSNBC host challenges Trump aide after he described plans to overturn the 2020 election
Quote:
Peter Navarro described Trump allies' plans to decertify the 2020 election results to MSNBC.
He detailed the plans to challenge the results in battleground states.
Host Ari Melber shot back, asking: "Do you realize you are describing a coup?"
There was the plan for GOP legislators to challenge the votes in key states, sending the vote to the House to decide. Navarro admitted to this plan openly on the news interview calling it the Green Bay Sweep and opined that if only Pence went along with the plan and Dump supporters stayed calm it would work. Navarro's oblivious to the fact he was describing something illegal.


From last Oct, now getting a bit more attention: All the ways Michigan made the congressional report on Trump trying to overturn the election - Mich. U.S. attorneys received talking points on Antrim Co. ‘coverup’
Quote:
The U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee released the lengthy report on Thursday, following many months of investigation into Trump’s repeated efforts to involve the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) in his plans to illegally subvert the 2020 election results.

For their report, Democrats examined documents, interviewed key figures and compiled timelines to get a clearer picture of what happened during that time.

Leading up to January 6, Steve Bannon publicly bragged about his behind-the-scene role fomenting the insurrection
Quote:
In the days before the January 6 insurrection, former Trump adviser Steve Bannon bragged on his podcast about his behind-the-scenes efforts to undermine the results of the 2020 presidential election.

These claims include calls and meetings he joined with conservative lawyer John Eastman and Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, who were then running the Trump legal team’s “war room” out of the Willard Hotel in downtown Washington, D.C., where allies conspired to advance crackpot legal theories and misinformation campaigns aimed at stealing the 2020 presidential election from Joe Biden. At one point, Bannon suggested the team at the Willard Hotel solicited bail on behalf of Proud Boys leader Enrique Tarrio, who had been arrested in Washington, D.C., the day before the insurrection.

There was Flynn's encouragement that Dump claim massive election fraud and declare martial law under the Insurrection Act. [Oh the irony there.]

What is the Insurrection Act and how could Trump use it?

Nov 2021: Lawyer John Eastman and Michael Flynn among six subpoenaed by Capitol attack panel
Quote:
The House select committee investigating the Capitol attack has issued subpoenas to six of Donald Trump’s associates involved in the effort to overturn the results of the 2020 election from a “command center” at the Willard Hotel in Washington DC.

The subpoenas demanding documents and testimony open a new line of inquiry into the coordinated strategy by the White House and the Trump campaign to stop the certification of Joe Biden’s election win, and whether it was connected to the 6 January insurrection.
The article is 2 months old but more details of the plot have come out since.

Legal Experts Accuse Michael Flynn of ‘Breathtakingly Morally Treasonous’ Sedition for Urging Donald Trump to Declare Martial Law
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 04:30 PM   #22
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,287
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have come to change my opinion on this attempted coup since the insurrection. Even then I thought it was a fairly spontaneous mentally-ill Dump affair.

But now it is coming out that the Dump insiders were planning for months how they would overturn the election they believed Trump would lose. (Some of this is probably already in the thread, sorry.)

'Do you realize you're describing a coup?': MSNBC host challenges Trump aide after he described plans to overturn the 2020 election

There was the plan for GOP legislators to challenge the votes in key states, sending the vote to the House to decide. Navarro admitted to this plan openly on the news interview calling it the Green Bay Sweep and opined that if only Pence went along with the plan and Dump supporters stayed calm it would work. Navarro's oblivious to the fact he was describing something illegal.
I saw that whole interview, and my favorite line was when Ari Melber said (paraphrasing), "You realize you're the type of person the Constitution protects the rest of us against?"

Hoo-hah!
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 06:37 PM   #23
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,853
RollingStone: Swing State Trumpers Forged Letters to National Archives in Harebrained Scheme to Overturn Election
Quote:
Pro-Trump groups in Arizona and Michigan attempted to fool the National Archives by sending forged certificates of ascertainment declaring Trump the recipient of the state’s 2020 electors. The Jan. 6 committee now has those fake certificates, thanks to the secretaries of State for both swing states, Politico reported on Monday.

The National Archives shared the forged documents with state officials, informing them it would not accept the fakes.
This is after Wisconsin's forgers were revealed.

Notarized and all for prosecutors to act on. Hopefully they will.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 11th January 2022 at 06:39 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 06:41 PM   #24
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 23,376
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
RollingStone: Swing State Trumpers Forged Letters to National Archives in Harebrained Scheme to Overturn Election
This is after Wisconsin's forgers were revealed.

Notarized and all for prosecutors to act on. Hopefully they will.
I hope they get their asses sent to prison.

"The Arizona group that sent the forgery, called “AZ Protect the Vote,"

My irony meter just exploded into a million, tiny little pieces.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 07:56 PM   #25
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 13,787
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I hope they get their asses sent to prison. .
At this point I’m thinking roadside executions if found guilty.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 09:03 PM   #26
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,736
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
At this point I’m thinking roadside executions if found guilty.
At this point, I'm assuming slaps on the wrist and possible pardons in 3-7 years.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 10:23 PM   #27
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,683
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Mod InfoContinued from here. As is usual the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from previous threads.
Posted By:Agatha




To repeat:








Sounds like we are all in agreement now.
I'm not sure that is a coup. Do coups ever have cover that they think they are adhering to the law? I'm not sure being mistaken about the rules is a coup.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 10:25 PM   #28
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,979
Most Coups invoke some overriding, more 'Original' rule, law or principle as justification.

It's a trick to get fence sitters to not oppose you, and lets other countries pretend that it's not their business.
__________________
"Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food."

- Robert M. Pirsig

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 11th January 2022 at 10:26 PM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2022, 10:26 PM   #29
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,683
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Most Coups invoke some overriding, more 'Original' rule, law or principle to justify themselves.
Yes, that's why I phrased it in a way that accounts for that.

The argument here isn't some older principle or law. The argument seems to be, "it totally says that."

(not every version. I know a version or two where they do pursue an "original principle"....people who thought the US was made a corporation and crap.... but others are just saying it is a clear constitutional power).

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 11th January 2022 at 10:29 PM.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 01:14 AM   #30
Allen773
Graduate Poster
 
Allen773's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Cali Four Neea
Posts: 1,518
Look, no one's saying it was a successful coup. But this was definitely a serious attempt at a self-coup by 45 and his allies, and anyone arguing otherwise at this point is either very ignorant or being willfully obtuse/acting in bad faith.

It's not like he or his allies tried at all to hide their intentions. On the contrary, they were all but screaming from the rooftops that they were going to do something like this. And Trump was saying in public that he couldn't possibly lose other than via "fraud" or a "rigged election" going back to the 2016 campaign.

Frankly it would've been a surprise if the man hadn't tried to obstruct his failure to get re-elected and sabotage the outcome. That's how bad it is. Back in the 1970s, campaign-related sabotage, obstruction of justice, and abuse of power were considered serious enough scandals that they forced a President to resign in disgrace on threat of certain impeachment and removal from office. Nowadays the very facts are a partisan issue, which is why bad actors like Trump basically have impunity to do what they want in the knowledge that their team will close ranks and protect them.

Last edited by Allen773; 12th January 2022 at 01:24 AM.
Allen773 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 06:06 AM   #31
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,683
Originally Posted by Allen773 View Post
Look, no one's saying it was a successful coup. But this was definitely a serious attempt at a self-coup by 45 and his allies, and anyone arguing otherwise at this point is either very ignorant or being willfully obtuse/acting in bad faith..
(there were multiple proposals with various levels of sincerity, so it depends on exactly what plan, but...)

I think you are being a little obtuse. The US Constitution contains a lot of undemocratic structures including the ability of legislatures to submit their own electors and processes for the house to choose the president. Efforts to get the bodies to do that certainly wouldn't qualify as a coup.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 07:07 AM   #32
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,979
Yes it would.
It's clear that a State has to use the election system it has chosen, and can't retroactively change it to get a different outcome.
If it had chosen to pick it's own electors, that would probably have been constitutional - but what Trump and his fanboys tried to do was definitely a coup attempt.
__________________
"Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food."

- Robert M. Pirsig
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 07:47 AM   #33
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,683
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yes it would.
It's clear that a State has to use the election system it has chosen, and can't retroactively change it to get a different outcome.
Does the time of chusing get set at Dec 8th because of the cutoff?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 08:01 AM   #34
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,979
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Does the time of chusing get set at Dec 8th because of the cutoff?
Before an Election, the rules of said election must be fixed.

There were no provisions for States to annull their elections in 2020, so any efforts to send in "alternate Electors" were (State) unconstitutional.
__________________
"Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food."

- Robert M. Pirsig
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 08:06 AM   #35
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 21,683
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Before an Election, the rules of said election must be fixed.

There were no provisions for States to annull their elections in 2020, so any efforts to send in "alternate Electors" were (State) unconstitutional.

Congress sets the time of chusing, but where do they get the power to fix the cutoff for election method?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 11:07 AM   #36
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,287
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
(there were multiple proposals with various levels of sincerity, so it depends on exactly what plan, but...)

I think you are being a little obtuse. The US Constitution contains a lot of undemocratic structures including the ability of legislatures to submit their own electors and processes for the house to choose the president. Efforts to get the bodies to do that certainly wouldn't qualify as a coup.
It's a coup because the reasons to not certify and Jan 6 and send it back to the states were ginned up, made up, fabricated, invented, created, imagined, . . . .

I just broke by thesaurus.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 11:09 AM   #37
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,868
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not sure that is a coup. Do coups ever have cover that they think they are adhering to the law? I'm not sure being mistaken about the rules is a coup.
We have Trump strong-arming the Georgia Secretary of the State to "find" 11,780 votes. We have right wing terrorist storming the Capitol in a violent insurrection. We have pro-Trump groups forging elector documents.

Where in any of that are these people "mistaken about the rules"?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 11:09 AM   #38
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 37,122
"It's not a coup because if you call it a coup... goddamn our asses are on the line."

There. We can stop talking about it or entertaining this stupid ******* years long hairsplitting hijack.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 12:45 PM   #39
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: USA! USA!
Posts: 24,087
Did anyone else see this? Fraudulent Trump / Pence elector lists were sent to Washington by seven states.

https://www.americanoversight.org/am...trump-electors
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th January 2022, 01:08 PM   #40
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 12,649
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Did anyone else see this? Fraudulent Trump / Pence elector lists were sent to Washington by seven states.
Is that actually correct? The article says "from" not "by". It says the documents were assembled by groups of Trump supporters, not by the states themselves.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:59 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.