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Old 14th October 2021, 10:03 AM   #3441
MarkCorrigan
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
heh. A good piece of sophistry there to hide the fact it was a very different sinking from the Estonia

The fact you feel the need to gild the lily, as it were, is a dead cert indication you know perfectly well the two cases are entirely different from each other, or you wouldn't need to resort to such an outrageous attempt to obfuscate the matter.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:11 AM   #3442
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence it would have floated 'belly up'?
Ships very rarely float 'belly up' they sink.

....But I saw this documentary with Gene Hackman & Ernest Borgnine....
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:20 AM   #3443
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Are tutors so stupid as not to realize that sometimes, "It depends," is the appropriate answer to a question?
Back in my lecturing days, the third slide I showed to students on one course consisted of only the two words Cela dépend.

The course was on the audit of information systems and how context and perspective were essential before making any firm judgements.

In thirty years of career I've started answers with "it depends" far more often than with "yes" or "no". The only reply I give more frequently begins something like "Well, the Greeks believed that..."
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:25 AM   #3444
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
There is always the entertainment/comedy angle (common to many CT threads). That's what keeps bringing me back .
I concluded very early on in this thread that it was going to be performance art rather than anything sensible. But I still catch up with it every couple of days because bits of it are spontaneously funny (even if not deliberately so) and because I learn a lot from the posters who know what they're talking about.
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Old 14th October 2021, 10:50 AM   #3445
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So the short answer is no, only if it has leaky seams.
That is not what was written.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:12 AM   #3446
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So it sunk because...?
It filled up with water.

It still happens. Two ships a week sink on average.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:15 AM   #3447
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The direct comparison with the Herald of Free Enterprise is the ferry ro-ro, Jan Heweliusz . However, the Jan Heweliusz was in open sea and this is how it ended up, as the Estonia should have, had it been a simple flooding of the car deck with water.
What is your evidence for this?

Ships very rarely turn over and float belly up before sinking.



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It is astonishing that someone who professes to be a master of shipbuilding, architecture and engineering did not know of this elementary principle.
Because every ship sinking is identical ?
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:16 AM   #3448
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You know, the answer 'Depends' in answer to a question is what drives tutors mad.
Then don't expect a one word answer for a complex question.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:18 AM   #3449
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seriously, you are claiming metallurgy credentials and you are trying to get us to believe people can temper steel on their bathroom floor.
Wiki
Yes you can temper steel on your bathroom floor.
What do you think tempering steel is?
How do you think it is done?

I was learning forge work and casting from my grandfather as a child, he was a Blacksmith and Farrier.
We had our own forge and small foundry in our workshop.
As well as smithying we could cast up to 5 kg of iron. (or brass, aluminium etc)

My dad expanded it by adding a machine shop

Controlling the temper and hardness of your work is a basic and essential skill.

You can temper small pieces with just a small heat source. What temperatures do you think are used to temper?

Here's a clue. a light yellow temper is 210 degrees centigrade.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 14th October 2021 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:23 AM   #3450
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
1. If the car ramp came off because it shared the same superstructure framework as the bow visor, how come the bow visor was 1,000m away from the car ramp which is still attached to the vessel?
So what you're saying is that you are 100% unfamiliar with any aspect of the disaster. Being wrenched open and being ripped completely off are two different things (think compound fracture vs amputation).

AND the new video shows the ramp was yanked open with the inevitable massive force causing damage to its frame which allowed it to close as the ship sank, and is why it has completely detached from the hull.

Quote:
2. The official timeline is that Linde heard a loud noise in the car ramp/bow visor area - although he had told Dagens Nyheter in early October 1994 he had seen water in the car deck - and the guys in the engine room, Sillaste and Kikas heard it from the walkie-talkie message or as instructed by the bridge and checked the monitor. Sillaste has drawn a diagram at least five times for investigators and the press showing what he saw, and it is water coming in through the sides, not the top. Linde claims he was then instructed to go down to the car deck to investigate but was hampered by passengers running up the stairwell. All the indications are that Sillaste and Kikas were already up to their knees in the engine room and Linde's claim he went to the Information Desk on Deck 5 to ask the lady to open the car deck, which was supposedly locked, but in actuality rarely was, sounds like another fabrication by him and he was likely sent to tell her to put out a general emergency alarm.
The key point here is this was in the initial portion of the chain of disaster. They never physically went to the bow to eyeball the situation. Doesn't matter what they saw or say they saw - IT'S WHAT THEY NEVER SAW THAT COUNTS.

Quote:
3. The captain was far from inept. He trained at a Russian naval school and it took six years for him to get his captain certificate. He was a stickler for discipline and was under contract to run the vessel to schedule.
Look up the Russian naval history and get back to us.

The guy LEFT THE BRIDGE IN THE MIDDLE OF A STORM AFTER TAKING DAMAGE HE NEVER BOTHERED TO CONFIRM. So yes, he was trained by the Russian navy.

Quote:
For all of Sillaste's edited recollections, he did his human best, not leaving the ship until 1:30, unlike Linde who was in his survival suit and life raft before you could say Jack Robinson and before Tammes and Ainsalu had even sent their Mayday calls.
One of them knew that once the car deck was flooded the ship would sink like a rock. Take a guess which one.

Quote:
Oh, and even it was high seas, the car deck height was 5m (sixteen feet) so for the waves to even get into the one metre gap at the top, they'd have to break the record for wave height, even in a Beaufort 7 gale
.

Gosh, not only are you blind to the car ramp being open, you are clueless to the concept if PITCH. The Estonia was sailing directly into the waves which meant the bow would rise and fall. When it fell that 5m height became much less. This caused two things to occur: water entered the car deck and the water would flow to the rear of the car deck as the Estonia pitched back skyward.

Then as the ship rolled that 5m height diminished 3m, then 2m, and then 0m.

Glad I can explain the obvious to you.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:27 AM   #3451
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
heh. A good piece of sophistry there to hide the fact it was a very different sinking from the Estonia

The fact you feel the need to gild the lily, as it were, is a dead cert indication you know perfectly well the two cases are entirely different from each other, or you wouldn't need to resort to such an outrageous attempt to obfuscate the matter.
Where is the 'sophistry' or 'gilding'?

It was on the bottom, it wasn't afloat. unless you are using some new, previously unknown definition of the word sink.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:34 AM   #3452
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Gosh, not only are you blind to the car ramp being open, you are clueless to the concept if PITCH. The Estonia was sailing directly into the waves which meant the bow would rise and fall. When it fell that 5m height became much less. This caused two things to occur: water entered the car deck and the water would flow to the rear of the car deck as the Estonia pitched back skyward.

Then as the ship rolled that 5m height diminished 3m, then 2m, and then 0m.

Glad I can explain the obvious to you.
Time for this video again?

HMS Sirius pitching in a head sea.

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Old 14th October 2021, 11:41 AM   #3453
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Seriously, you are claiming metallurgy credentials and you are trying to get us to believe people can temper steel on their bathroom floor.



Wiki
Nope. I said what I said; the hair-brained misinterpretations are yours. Your speciality, it seems.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:02 PM   #3454
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Yes you can temper steel on your bathroom floor.
What do you think tempering steel is?
How do you think it is done?

I was learning forge work and casting from my grandfather as a child, he was a Blacksmith and Farrier.
We had our own forge and small foundry in our workshop.
As well as smithying we could cast up to 5 kg of iron. (or brass, aluminium etc)

My dad expanded it by adding a machine shop

Controlling the temper and hardness of your work is a basic and essential skill.

You can temper small pieces with just a small heat source. What temperatures do you think are used to temper?

Here's a clue. a light yellow temper is 210 degrees centigrade.
One of my great great grandmother's came from a blacksmith's, which was a quite well respected profession in those days as they were needed for shoeing horses and making tools. That is exactly the point I am making. To work with metals at that temperature and using those materials you need a suitable environment. The idea that 'anyone can heat steel up to 700-800 to change its inner structure (unlike water - ice- steam, steel has five distinct phases) I am sure is right, but how likely? I am sure we can all go out and get a mig welder but that is missing the point as to how the bow visor forepeak came to show the signs of intense heat.

I am sure we could all go out and fashion a sword if we wanted to.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:10 PM   #3455
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One of my great great grandmother's came from a blacksmith's, which was a quite well respected profession in those days as they were needed for shoeing horses and making tools. That is exactly the point I am making. To work with metals at that temperature and using those materials you need a suitable environment. The idea that 'anyone can heat steel up to 700-800 to change its inner structure (unlike water - ice- steam, steel has five distinct phases) I am sure is right, but how likely? I am sure we can all go out and get a mig welder but that is missing the point as to how the bow visor forepeak came to show the signs of intense heat.

I am sure we could all go out and fashion a sword if we wanted to.
tempering is easy, you don't need much equipment at all.

If you weld steel it gets above 1500 degrees as you need to melt it. Heat is conducted through the metal.
All of the components of the bow visor, the forepeak were welded together using big welders that applied 'intense heat' That's how welding works, that's how ships are built.

We went through all this just last week. Are you going to make us post everything again?
Why not just read back last weeks posts?
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:11 PM   #3456
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What bit of "welding" is still confusing to you?
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:18 PM   #3457
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
One of my great great grandmother's came from a blacksmith's, which was a quite well respected profession in those days as they were needed for shoeing horses and making tools.
My grandfather was a blacksmith, and later a shipbuilder during World War II. He taught me to temper when I was 13, in his garage, using only home metalworking tools. I've done it many times since, using only my own home metalworking tools.

Quote:
...but that is missing the point...
And how. Maybe you should listen to people who have actually done the things you merely wonder how to do.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:20 PM   #3458
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...how the bow visor forepeak came to show the signs of intense heat.
Because it was welded construction, and welding involves intense heat. This is so very basic I wonder why you keep trying to stumble over it.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:22 PM   #3459
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Hardening and tempering a top spring for an old Remington shotgun.

First part is fabricating the new spring, the heat comes in at 23 minutes. He uses a 'lead pot' to control the temperature of the temper. (Mark Novak is an ace gunsmith and his vids are worth watching anyway)

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Tempering a mainspring for an 1812 Springfield
Again a lead pot to control the temperature from about 20 minutes

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Old 14th October 2021, 12:26 PM   #3460
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
My grandfather was a blacksmith, and later a shipbuilder during World War II. He taught me to temper when I was 13, in his garage, using only home metalworking tools. I've done it many times since, using only my own home metalworking tools.



And how. Maybe you should listen to people who have actually done the things you merely wonder how to do.
My grandad started work as an apprentice blacksmith at Lumpsey Ironstone mine.
In the 30s and 40s he ran his own forge in the village then after WW2 he worked as a blacksmith at British Steel and the forge was just a part time thing.

When it finally closed in the late 70s it was dismantled and rebuilt at Preston Park Museum near Stockton on Tees.
It's strange to visit and see the forge I used as a kid.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:34 PM   #3461
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Time for this video again?

HMS Sirius pitching in a head sea.

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And as you can see, the water simply washes away over the deck.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:36 PM   #3462
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Mod WarningGet back on topic and unless any of you have a particular affinity for yellow cards, stay on topic.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:Agatha
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:36 PM   #3463
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It doesn't follow. It just gallops off in an orthogonal direction. But it gets an exasperated reply which keeps the thread simmering along with further posts about irrelevant digressions so maybe someone counts that as a little victory.

I think it's abundantly clear - and has been for a very long time now - that if any revisions to the official conclusions do take place, they'll be strictly on the fringes. Nothing will change the fundamental finding: that this ship sank because its poorly-designed and poorly-maintained bow visor failed at its bottom lock, setting off a series of further failures which culminated in seawater flooding the vehicle deck and the loss of the vessel.

Last edited by LondonJohn; 14th October 2021 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:37 PM   #3464
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And as you can see, the water simply washes away over the deck.
Which, unlike the car deck of a ferry, is not enclosed. Do you think that might make a difference?
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:49 PM   #3465
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And as you can see, the water simply washes away over the deck.

Of course it does. It's an exposed foredeck. And all the hatches are battened down. The foredeck of that ship was specifically designed and constructed to withstand huge and powerful masses of water without compromising the ship in any way.

In this respect, it's entirely incomparable to water rushing into an enclosed deck - e.g. the vehicle deck of the Estonia. The designers of the Estonia would never have designed the vehicle deck to withstand ingress of a huge mass/volume of seawater. Furthermore, once significant amounts of water had entered the vehicle deck, it was a grim inevitability that plenty of that water would have found its way down inside the hull, through open hatches, open access ports, open doorways, ventilation shafts, stairways, etc.
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:55 PM   #3466
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And as you can see, the water simply washes away over the deck.
Ergo, there were no explosives used on the Estonia. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:00 PM   #3467
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And as you can see, the water simply washes away over the deck.
Because it is a solid bow designed to take big waves when the ship is forcing it's way in to a head sea at high speed. See how it is raised and the distance to the turret and front of the superstructure?
It does not have a faulty, over stressed, separate bow held on by bolts that have to be hammered in to place.
If the how fell off a couple of meters above the waterline do you think the compartments behind would not be filled with water very quickly?

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Old 14th October 2021, 01:17 PM   #3468
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Seriously Vixen, are you claiming you can't temper steel at home?
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:25 PM   #3469
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where is the 'sophistry' or 'gilding'?

It was on the bottom, it wasn't afloat. unless you are using some new, previously unknown definition of the word sink.

I think you've got it; Vixen is under the impression that if a ship isn't completely covered with water it did not sink.
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:26 PM   #3470
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Seriously Vixen, are you claiming you can't temper steel at home?
Well she's certainly ridiculing the idea, but I can't for the life of me see what it's got to do with any of this.
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:41 PM   #3471
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well she's certainly ridiculing the idea, but I can't for the life of me see what it's got to do with any of this.
Samples from the bow visor show they were exposed to temperature s in excess of 700 degrees.

Vixen claims that only a 'detonation' or a lab could produce a temperature of 700 degrees and that all the parts were welded together is not a factor in this.

Somehow any metalworking involving any kind of heating can't be done at home therefore welding on the ship can't be included in any explanation of the event.

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Old 14th October 2021, 04:08 PM   #3472
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
I think you've got it; Vixen is under the impression that if a ship isn't completely covered with water it did not sink.
Take a simple rowing boat, wood frame, operated by oars. There are no leaks.
Any imbalance or inflow of water, the boat simply capsizes toppling its contents into the water. It doesn't sink, it floats upside down ceteris paribus.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:12 PM   #3473
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Samples from the bow visor show they were exposed to temperature s in excess of 700 degrees.

Vixen claims that only a 'detonation' or a lab could produce a temperature of 700 degrees and that all the parts were welded together is not a factor in this.

Somehow any metalworking involving any kind of heating can't be done at home therefore welding on the ship can't be included in any explanation of the event.
I misremembered what Braidwood's report said. I located the report and rectified what the wording actually was. For some reason, Braidwood's report is ignored whilst people prefer to focus on whether it is possible to heat metal to 700° outside of a laboratory.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:13 PM   #3474
MarkCorrigan
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I...have you ever been sailing at all Vixen?

How do you explain the video I posted earlier in the thread from the US series Survivor, which involved people in simple boats having said oats sink straight down without capsizing due to the boats filling with water?

Why are you always, always wrong? It's genuinely disturbing how literally every post you make is wrong. It's like you're trying to be wrong.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:17 PM   #3475
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Because it is a solid bow designed to take big waves when the ship is forcing it's way in to a head sea at high speed. See how it is raised and the distance to the turret and front of the superstructure?
It does not have a faulty, over stressed, separate bow held on by bolts that have to be hammered in to place.
If the how fell off a couple of meters above the waterline do you think the compartments behind would not be filled with water very quickly?
Exactly at Swedish midnight, the captain nowhere in sight; I think you would have to be a naive investigator to focus solely on the bow visor and failing investigate anything else, especially when 34 of the survivors reported a series of three bangs (including Sillaste, although Linde says one) and/or a collision.

Fact is, it is not the first time there have been issues with a bow visor. On all other occasions the vessel simply got repaired on returning to port.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:19 PM   #3476
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I...have you ever been sailing at all Vixen?

How do you explain the video I posted earlier in the thread from the US series Survivor, which involved people in simple boats having said oats sink straight down without capsizing due to the boats filling with water?

Why are you always, always wrong? It's genuinely disturbing how literally every post you make is wrong. It's like you're trying to be wrong.
Did you not note the words ceteris paribus?
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:24 PM   #3477
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I did. You're still wrong.

Again, if a boat takes on water to the point where it loses buoyancy it will sink straight down give or take. To capsize a boat takes specific conditions such as the water coming across the boat side on, or the crew taking precautions to deliberately capsize the boat to avoid sinking. I ask again, do you sail?

Please explain how in the video I mentioned, the boats being flooded sank them straight down and neither boat capsized.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:27 PM   #3478
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I did. You're still wrong.

Again, if a boat takes on water to the point where it loses buoyancy it will sink straight down give or take. To capsize a boat takes specific conditions such as the water coming across the boat side on, or the crew taking precautions to deliberately capsize the boat to avoid sinking. I ask again, do you sail?

Please explain how in the video I mentioned, the boats being flooded sank them straight down and neither boat capsized.
One can contrive anything.
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:29 PM   #3479
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
.. 34 of the survivors reported a series of three bangs ...
This is a very specific claim. I'm sure you can provide evidence that 34 survivors all reported 'a series of three bangs', right?
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Old 14th October 2021, 04:33 PM   #3480
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Take a simple rowing boat, wood frame, operated by oars. There are no leaks.
Any imbalance or inflow of water, the boat simply capsizes toppling its contents into the water. It doesn't sink, it floats upside down ceteris paribus.

No.

Maybe go back and re-read my post which includes the photo of that Roman shipwreck. A photo which shows that the ship must have sunk in exactly the orientation it had at the surface - ie a horizontal bow-stern attitude, keel down.

That was a wooden boat (though the wood has long since completely rotted away). It didn't capsize. It didn't topple its contents into the water. It didn't float upside down. It did sink. ceteris paribus (LMAO)
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