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Old 29th January 2022, 05:36 PM   #81
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Like Germany in the 1930s. That turned out well.
History, including modern history, actually includes lessons beyond the Third Reich. Turns out that foreign policy is more complicated than just one scenario can demonstrate. For example, while lack of aggressive response is often credited with allowing the spread of Nazi Germany, entangling alliances and brinksmanship directly lead to the catastrophically destructive first World War, and nearly lead to the entire annihilation of the planet through nuclear exchange during the missile crisis. Turns out these things are complicated and chaotic, and the right response in one scenario is not always the right thing in another.

But sure, just like Germany in the 30s.
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Old 30th January 2022, 01:51 PM   #82
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Tucker's pro-Russia crap is being used by the Russians to support their contention that it's the US that's pushing for war over Ukraine:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/202...son-rs-vpx.cnn



Looks like it's working on Fox viewers. I also suspect not all of them are Americans, but Russian agents.

Quote:
"A congressman from New Jersey has disclosed that he is receiving calls from viewers of Tucker Carlson’s primetime Fox News show, expressing distress at the Biden administration’s backing of Ukraine in the tense military stand-off with Russia.

Democratic representative Tom Malinowski said in a tweet his office was fielding calls from Carlson viewers “upset that we’re not siding with Russia in its threats to invade Ukraine”.

The callers, he said, “want me to support Russia’s ‘reasonable’ positions”.
I don't think Tucker is a Russian agent; he's just a useful idiot.
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Old 30th January 2022, 02:27 PM   #83
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
History, including modern history, actually includes lessons beyond the Third Reich. Turns out that foreign policy is more complicated than just one scenario can demonstrate. For example, while lack of aggressive response is often credited with allowing the spread of Nazi Germany, entangling alliances and brinksmanship directly lead to the catastrophically destructive first World War, and nearly lead to the entire annihilation of the planet through nuclear exchange during the missile crisis. Turns out these things are complicated and chaotic, and the right response in one scenario is not always the right thing in another.

But sure, just liake Germany in the 30s.
Leading up to WW1 you effectively had an early version of democratic peace theory that held that so long as through trade countries interests were in keeping the trade going, war would be so clearly against everybodies interests that it was inconceivable. Obviously, that only works if every nation is dominated by merchants and shopkeepers. Germany had a rather different set of priorities.

Perhaps as important as anything, you have the great "misunderstanding" in which the Kaiser was under the impression that he had an assurance from George V that the British government would guarantee French and British neutrality. Even after that the British government was still divided about whether they would go to war to honour their treaty obligations. Before both WW1 and WW2 you have a misperception by the German side that Britain was unwilling to fight. Rather than the treaties leading to war, it's more like the perception that there was no commitment to go to war that lead to war.

I would say that a great power letting the idea get about that it is not willing/able to fight to defend it's interests and honour it's obligations is catastrophic and a terrific way to start a war.

Last edited by shuttlt; 30th January 2022 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:33 PM   #84
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Before both WW1 and WW2 you have a misperception by the German side that Britain was unwilling to fight. Rather than the treaties leading to war, it's more like the perception that there was no commitment to go to war that lead to war.
And these are not the only examples.

Gulf War
Quote:
In early July 1990, Iraq complained about Kuwait's behavior, such as not respecting their quota, and openly threatened to take military action. On the 23rd, the CIA reported that Iraq had moved 30,000 troops to the Iraq-Kuwait border...

On the 25th, Saddam met with April Glaspie, the US Ambassador to Iraq, in Baghdad... Saddam stated that he would attempt last-ditch negotiations with the Kuwaitis but Iraq "would not accept death."

According to Glaspie's own account, she stated in reference to the precise border between Kuwait and Iraq, "... 'then, as now, we took no position on these Arab affairs'." Glaspie similarly believed that war was not imminent.
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Old 30th January 2022, 04:37 PM   #85
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You are right. Almost exactly the same as the weak ******** that allowed WW1 to happen.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:42 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
Just like all that crap about the holocaust.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:45 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Do you object to the US having been the Arsenal of Democracy during WW2?
Next people will be all upset about american cluster bombs being used against civilians by our good allies. We are the worlds arsenal, democracy or otherwise.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:47 AM   #88
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Tucker's pro-Russia crap is being used by the Russians to support their contention that it's the US that's pushing for war over Ukraine:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/media/202...son-rs-vpx.cnn



Looks like it's working on Fox viewers. I also suspect not all of them are Americans, but Russian agents.



I don't think Tucker is a Russian agent; he's just a useful idiot.
He is a Russian Asset.
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Old 31st January 2022, 06:48 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Next people will be all upset about american cluster bombs being used against civilians by our good allies. We are the worlds arsenal, democracy or otherwise.
Seems like good odds to me that once this current crisis is over, regardless of the result, we're going to end up with Ukrainian Nazis well armed with American weapons. Surely this will have no bad consequences.

ETA: And Canadian weapons. Canada seems to have a special connection to Ukrainian Nazis, with many of the WWII era Nazi collaborators escaping to Canada and still supporting the lost cause of fascism. Canada turned a blind eye to these elements because they were stridently anti-Soviet and anti-communist, and continue to do so because they remain anti-Russian.
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