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Old 16th October 2018, 03:10 PM   #321
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Nice try, but we've got a minority that has gamed its way to near-complete federal power and is actively lying and working to suppress the majority's power - and civil rights - further. As bad as a "tyranny of the majority" might sometimes be, a tyranny of the minority is far worse.
Perhaps but you misunderstand my point. There's no question that the GOP has rigged the system and has essentially tried to disinfrenchise the majority of the US, which is nothing if not downright evil. But my point is that doing the same to the minority is only marginally better. All substantial segments of the population should, in theory, have a voice. The Senate's 2-per-state composition is an attempt to address this issue, and so is the EC. The alternative is to ignore people in rural areas entirely, and I can't agree with that.

It is possible to have neither of the two tyrannies you mention.
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Old 16th October 2018, 03:14 PM   #322
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No offense, but this sounds like one of those CT threads.
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Old 16th October 2018, 03:34 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
There is virtually no check remaining on the current legislative branch and the only remaining check on the executive branch is a special prosecutor employed by...the executive branch.

I hear the guillotine is an effective check on executive, legislative, and judicial power.

I say that only semi-faecetiously, given that a popular uprising seems to be the only recourse that will be left to us peons very soon, if things continue as they are. That was one of the primary justifications for the Second Amendment after all.
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Old 16th October 2018, 04:05 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
No offense, but this sounds like one of those CT threads.
Coming from one of our forum's preeminent purveyors of conspiracies theories, I doubt offense would be the reaction.

More like laughter.
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Old 16th October 2018, 04:37 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
No offense, but this sounds like one of those CT threads.
Which part?

If you're refering to gerrymandering, it's a well-known issue.
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Old 16th October 2018, 07:25 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Coming from one of our forum's preeminent purveyors of conspiracies theories, I doubt offense would be the reaction.

More like laughter.
And also there's this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amer...change_Council
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Old 16th October 2018, 07:49 PM   #327
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Illinois is a kind of a microcosm of all this.

Upstate we have Chicago and downstate is largely agricultural. The areas have completely different interests, but Chicago largely dictates the politics.

Not too long ago, the General Assembly and Senate both voted for proposals to reform the map process to limit gerrymandering. But the voted on different bills which couldn't be reconciled. Both houses are controlled by the Democratic party, which has drawn the last few maps. (Yes, folks, gerrymandering is not just a GOP thing. The Democraats do it too.) Basically, they all get to say they voted for reform, without actually passing anything on to the governor to sign.

Surprisingly, opur governor is a Republican (for now), probably due in part to Governor Blagojevich (D) going to prison. (A proud Illinois gubernatorial tradition.) Neither the Democratic Legislature (controlled by Mike Madigan) or Governor Rauner are much willing to compromise on anything, so we went a few years without a state budget.

Frankly, I'd love for both parties to go away so we can start over. I have no respect for politicians that refuse to negotiate and compromise to try to address the interests of all sides as much as possible.

Unfortuantely, the system is controlled by the two parties in power. Neither of which is likely to vote on changes that would allow the rise of other parties. In illinois ballot access is hard if you are not a D or R: https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_acces...es_in_Illinois Basically, it's designed to keep third parties off.
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:02 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
But what's the solution? The democratic process has been twisted to favour a shrinking minority. Is the solution to twist the process differently, or to try to make the process more fair and less twisted?
The majority has to get louder and stop being idiots. We could actually win the entire Congress if every liberal/Democrat voted.

In the meantime the cheaters gonna cheat. An EC advantage isn't enough, they have to gerrymander and suppress the vote as well. Why is that? Because they can't win without cheating. And we can't defeat the cheating unless more people vote.
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:14 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Joe, did you read luchog's post? It isn't about just opinion. It's that the needs are different in rural areas. You are proposing that we ignore them completely, essentially.
Here's the thing, I got no problem with rural folks, or Republicans or others getting a fair share of the political pie.

But what if that supposed fair share turns into a disaster dictator like Trump who also has a cult of Congress supporting him and has now begun to totally wreck the SCOTUS?

That's not the rural folks getting their needs met. That's a nightmare taking control of the government.
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:15 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Nice try, but we've got a minority that has gamed its way to near-complete federal power and is actively lying and working to suppress the majority's power - and civil rights - further. As bad as a "tyranny of the majority" might sometimes be, a tyranny of the minority is far worse.
This ^
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Old 16th October 2018, 09:16 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No, how we got Trump was decades of unchallenged malfeasance and voter suppression by GOP-dominated state governments; an unfocused Democratic Party which continues to alienate its progressive wing in favour of pro-business center-right candidates;
That too, up to here. ^

The CT that somehow the DNC sabotaged Sanders I don't agree with.
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Old 17th October 2018, 02:53 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The majority has to get louder and stop being idiots. We could actually win the entire Congress if every liberal/Democrat voted.

In the meantime the cheaters gonna cheat. An EC advantage isn't enough, they have to gerrymander and suppress the vote as well. Why is that? Because they can't win without cheating. And we can't defeat the cheating unless more people vote.
Are you suggesting mandatory voting, then?

Quote:
Here's the thing, I got no problem with rural folks, or Republicans or others getting a fair share of the political pie.

But what if that supposed fair share turns into a disaster dictator like Trump who also has a cult of Congress supporting him and has now begun to totally wreck the SCOTUS?
Couldn't you ask the same question about Democrats?
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Old 17th October 2018, 06:45 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That too, up to here. ^

The CT that somehow the DNC sabotaged Sanders I don't agree with.

You do realize that the DNC leadership openly acknowledged doing so, right? That they deliberately restricted access to voter roles and funding, because Clinton bailed them out of near-bankruptcy.

But that's been hashed out so many times, and the admission ignored so many times, that I have no doubt it will get ignored again.
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Old 17th October 2018, 06:59 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You do realize that the DNC leadership openly acknowledged doing so, right? That they deliberately restricted access to voter roles and funding, because Clinton bailed them out of near-bankruptcy.

But that's been hashed out so many times, and the admission ignored so many times, that I have no doubt it will get ignored again.
Well, I must've missed this way back then. Do you have a quick link?
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Old 17th October 2018, 07:03 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You do realize that the DNC leadership openly acknowledged doing so, right? That they deliberately restricted access to voter roles and funding, because Clinton bailed them out of near-bankruptcy.

But that's been hashed out so many times, and the admission ignored so many times, that I have no doubt it will get ignored again.
What? They admitted to preferring democratic candidates over interlopers?

Sanders still lists himself as "Independent" and not "Democrat"

Why should the DNC give him anything?
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Old 17th October 2018, 07:08 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Nice try, but we've got a minority that has gamed its way to near-complete federal power and is actively lying and working to suppress the majority's power - and civil rights - further. As bad as a "tyranny of the majority" might sometimes be, a tyranny of the minority is far worse.
Rather than protecting minorities from the Tyranny of the Majority, we have instead ending up with a government run by the Majority of the Majority - even though that in itself is not the majority of the people.
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Old 17th October 2018, 07:48 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Which part?

If you're refering to gerrymandering, it's a well-known issue.

Don't forget GOP Rep Mike Turzai stating in 2012 that passing their voter ID law in Pennsylvania would guarantee Romney's victory in that state.
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Old 17th October 2018, 08:43 AM   #338
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The fact that Republicans are happy being Minority Rulers shows that they have given up on the ideals of the American Revolution.
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Old 17th October 2018, 08:47 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The fact that Republicans are happy being Minority Rulers shows that they have given up on the ideals of the American Revolution.
You mean the people that were OK not letting women, and non-property holders (the poor and obviously slaves) vote and that setup the EC would be upset that a candidate without the popular vote won? OTOH the EC was supposed to prevent a populist like Trump from becoming president.
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Old 17th October 2018, 09:08 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The fact that Republicans are happy being Minority Rulers shows that they have given up on the ideals of the American Revolution.
As I often say, democracy's great as long as your ideas enjoy majority support. Otherwise, democracy sucks and you work to subvert it. You as is, not you, people in general.
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Old 17th October 2018, 09:11 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
You mean the people that were OK not letting women, and non-property holders (the poor and obviously slaves) vote and that setup the EC would be upset that a candidate without the popular vote won? OTOH the EC was supposed to prevent a populist like Trump from becoming president.
agree on the actual function of the EC.

In a democracy, rule should be legitimized by a majority of voters.
This might be limited to all those who are not a slave, mad, female, poor or foreign.
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:25 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Are you suggesting mandatory voting, then?
No. I'm suggesting if more people voted we could overcome the minority tyranny.


Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Couldn't you ask the same question about Democrats?
Are you implying Trump is just another politician and what's going on now is just conservatives vs liberals?

Sure, if we elected some liberal nut job that started nationalizing the banks and other industries, you could say it.
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:28 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You do realize that the DNC leadership openly acknowledged doing so, right? That they deliberately restricted access to voter roles and funding, because Clinton bailed them out of near-bankruptcy.

But that's been hashed out so many times, and the admission ignored so many times, that I have no doubt it will get ignored again.
This argument has run it's course in other threads. Do you think you are telling me something I didn't know? I don't agree that preference had enough impact on the race regardless.
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Old 18th October 2018, 11:32 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No. I'm suggesting if more people voted we could overcome the minority tyranny.
Well, if the problem is people not voting, you can't call it a tyranny.

Quote:
Sure, if we elected some liberal nut job that started nationalizing the banks and other industries, you could say it.
No, that's not what I meant. But regardless you seem to be ok with democracy so long as it yields the results you want.

I say we do away with it altogether, then.
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Old 18th October 2018, 12:03 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, if the problem is people not voting, you can't call it a tyranny.
Yes I can. It's what I believe.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, that's not what I meant. But regardless you seem to be ok with democracy so long as it yields the results you want.

I say we do away with it altogether, then.
I say you are normalizing Trump and mischaracterizing my POV.
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Old 18th October 2018, 12:09 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes I can. It's what I believe.
It's a silly belief. If three people argue over what to get for dinner, and then two of them abstain from voting, you can't call it a tyranny that the third person made the call. YOU HAVE TO VOTE.

Quote:
I say you are normalizing Trump
How the hell am I doing that? You wouldn't be mischaracterising my POV, would you?
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Old Yesterday, 01:52 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's a silly belief. If three people argue over what to get for dinner, and then two of them abstain from voting, you can't call it a tyranny that the third person made the call. YOU HAVE TO VOTE.
Yeah. In the case under discussion in the OP we can talk about tyranny if people are having their voting rights suppressed, but if they are just choosing not to vote, that inaction is a an aspect of them exercising their vote. They've simply voted for none of the candidates on offer. As long as their was no compulsion talking about tyranny in this context doesn't make sense.
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Old Yesterday, 02:30 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
As long as their was no compulsion talking about tyranny in this context doesn't make sense.

Unfortunately, compulsion does still happen, and minority voters are still being suppressed.

Dozens of black voters ordered off bus bound for polls in Georgia amid razor-thin governor race

Excerpt:
Quote:
Dozens of black senior citizens in Louisville, Georgia, were ordered off a bus bound for the polls Monday after county officials said the event constituted prohibited "political activity." Activists called it an "intimidation tactic" in a razor-thin race for governor that's become engulfed in a fight over voting rights.

The really fun part is that this particular governor knows what he is doing is illegal voter intimidation, and is doing it anyway, because he knows that the current US government and Supreme Court won't call him on it.

Quote:
Kemp says he's enforcing the law and that if people want to vote, their name should be recorded accurately. To that point, Abrams countered, "The challenge is that he knew from experience that this law has a disproportionate effect on certain communities because he was sued for exactly this reason in 2016."
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