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Tags bigfoot , native american myths

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Old 29th August 2013, 05:00 PM   #1361
Correa Neto
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OooooOOOOooooH!

Some days ago I found another bigfoot-related myth here in Brazil... Its the "Hairy Leg". A spooky hairy leg that appears in narrow trails among the woods and kicks people. Of course its about bigfoot. Hairy humanoid in the woods frightening people.

Take that you denialist skpetics gubmint n' industryes shills stoopid mainsteram science egghead. Its conpelling EVidENce!!1 BIGFOOTS R GLOBAL PHENOMEMON!!!!

YAY!
Now I be a bigfoot researcher!!11!! Its not myth raping, itz mah research!!! I haz sightings too, I KNOW them r the real deal!
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Old 29th August 2013, 05:36 PM   #1362
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Dark matter

I see the copycat tactic of top secret locations to bigfoot sightings with our Kentucky friend.

The TBRC people with Area X probably didn't come up with the idea but it seems to me they've been the most audacious with shrieking about numbers and drama of interactions... while refusing to say where.

The irony of course is that they are the only self-proclaimed habitat preservation group that has named no habitat they claim needs preserving. A cottage industry of habitat preservationists with no habitat has evolved.
This group calls it "habitat security". Habitat security means having no habitat. That brings forward the question what they are securing it from. Pretty obvious, from how silly the claims look now that we have so many resources to scour the land ourselves. Google earth is amazing for demonstrating roads, railroads, buildings, parking lots, power lines, and even pictures people have posted. 3 D views. You can make out deer in pictures with the leaves down. One-seventh a bigfoot size.

Forget about "show me the monkey." At least previous generations of 'footers could show us where the footprints or signtings were, ie "show me where".

For the interest of my esteemed research associates here, I have developed a formula to describe the total habitat preserved across all such organizations in steady-state equilibrium:

lim [n->infinity]

A = [a1 + a2 + a3 + .... + ai + .... + an]

= zero

Now, what intrigues me is that despite the habitat summing to zero, we have nevertheless a nonzero population of bigfeet within. I think it obvious, therefore that bigfoot are made of dark matter.

Q.E.D.

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Old 15th December 2013, 03:19 PM   #1363
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The Tsimshian “monkey mask” was discussed upstream and I’d like to add to it, as well as discuss another artifact.

Here are two artifacts that are used by enthusiasts to bolster the idea that Native Cultures in NA knew of the existence of American apes. The first is a Niska Indian ritual mask collected around 1900 in northern British Columbia by a Lt. G.T. Emmons. Emmons intriguingly described the mask as representing ” a mythical being found in the woods and called today a monkey.”

The mask was donated to the Peabody Museum in 1914 by Emmons:

http://pmem.unix.fas.harvard.edu:8080/peabody/view/objects/asitem/search$0040/80/title-desc?t:state:flow=2a4d880a-d825-40d1-b67a-1998d6b61ca0

http://www.sasquatchcanada.com/uploa...82923_orig.jpg

Unlike other Indian artifacts purported to represent native apes, this one is unambiguously apelike or monkeylike. It has one humanlike characteristic though; its teeth are even in length and without prominent canines.

What are we to make of this? It has been suggested that this mask represents bukwus, which in turn is said to be the localized term for Bigfoot in certain First Nation cultures. I have been unable to locate this pertinent article that might help: “The Monkey from Alaska: The Curious Case of an Enigmatic Mask from Bigfoot Country,” by Edwin L. Wade, in Harvard magazine, Nov.-Dec. 1978, pp. 48-51.

Instead, I’ve relied on a secondary source that mentions Wade’s article, Bigfoot: A Personal Inquiry into a Phenomena, by Kenneth Wylie, pp. 81-82. Here is the relevant parts of Wylie’s comments, after he relates the fact of artifacts “that reveal puzzling apelike creatures in a world where no known apes are found:”

The most famous of these is the “monkey mask” (now in Harvard’s Peabody Museum) representing a creature called bukwus by the Tsimshian Indians. This has become notorious as an example of archaeological proof for the Sasquatch’s existence. The case has been examined by Edwin L. Wade, an ethnologist and archaeologist at Harvard who specializes in North American Indians. Wade notes that among the Tsimshians, bukwus is nocturnal, herbivorous, semi aquatic, and antisocial, but it is also small, no larger than a man….[The bukwus ]…looks rather like one of several varieties of monkey….

Wade does not shy away from the problem of explaining an apelike mask, such as bukwus, in an area where no apes or monkeys are supposed to exist. He points out the simple fact that all of the peoples of the Pacific Northwest coast had regular contact with Europeans and American seamen, especially after whaling and merchant ships began to visit the region in the late eighteenth century. By the 1840s several of the coastal tribes had a “booming tourist-art business,” carving all kinds of exotic beasts for ships’ captains, fur traders, and merchants. Many of these carvings, usually done in slate, portray peacocks, lions, elephants, and, of course, monkeys, none of which are indigenous to North America. Northwestern Indians may have hired on as crew members on whaling vessels, being expert whalers themselves (like Tashtego in Moby Dick, though he came from the opposite side of the of the continent), and so traveled around the world. Northwest Coast artists were allowed great liberty in interpreting their subjects, since their carvings were not religious icons and thus fixed in purpose or meaning. It would be easy enough for a native carver to incorporate a new and captivating “monkey” style, borrowed from abroad. This interpretation, Wade suggests, is at least as good as the one that postulates that the bukwus mask is based on a Bigfoot creature that exists in nature.

I would think Wade’s possible solution is much more likely than the Bigfoot enthusiast’s. Even Christopher Murphy has to credit a variation on this idea in his Know the Sasquatch/Bigfoot. On page 22 he portrays the “monkey mask” and offers this: Other than a sasquatch, the only plausible explanation for the source of this image is a pet monkey brought to North America by an early European sailor.

The second artifact is without provenience but found in Washington state’s Maryhill Museum. I assume it is thought to be from the Columbia River area where other First Nation carved heads from stone were excavated. Here is a picture:

http://orhistory.com/wordpress/wp-co...tone-Heads.jpg

This stone carving is said by some to represent an ape’s head. I don’t see that. This looks more sheeplike to me. The pronounce brow is probably the truncated curving horns of a mountain sheep, the elongated face and protruding eyes certainly don’t look-ape like. It looks more like a mountain sheep than an ape. More like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mharrsc...7607725827914/

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Old 15th December 2013, 10:01 PM   #1364
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Useless cribbed wall of text.
There is no magic monkey man.
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Old 16th December 2013, 12:29 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Useless cribbed wall of text.
There is no magic monkey man.
Nice manners. And I've now officially grown weary and BORED of your rude, essentially substance-less posts including the 'oh so edgy and ironic' anagram figboot and the annoying magic monkey man meme. So I should take the liberty now to point out that back here in reality, you're on the wrong side of your own meme.

Whoopsie!

After applying just minimal thought to it, you'd have realized that Bigfoot is actually THE magic monkey man. That he in fact exists only through the grace of magic. There's no actual body, no actual pictures, no actual beast, but there's ten ******* thousand stories about his magical existence. He's everywhere yet he's nowhere. Ergo, not just A magic monkey man, THE magic monkey man.

No?
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Old 16th December 2013, 04:55 AM   #1366
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Great post, jerrywayne.
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Old 16th December 2013, 05:18 PM   #1367
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It is incredibly ignorant of people like Murphy and others to state that the only way that monkeys or their descriptions/depictions could have come to the Pacific North-West Coast is from European contact.
There were vast trading networks from the far north of what we now know as Canada to Southern Mexico and Central America including Cuba and the Bahamas long before the Europeans came.
It would be perfectly natural for stories and depictions of any manner of animal or being to travel with the trade goods and their human distributors.

See trading map before European contact:http://www.cradleboard.org/curriculum/index.html
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Old 16th December 2013, 05:42 PM   #1368
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We don't know what inspired the artist. They may not have seen a monkey ever in their life. It could be a human face with artistic license and we think monkey even if the artist didn't. It could be some other non-primate creature given a whimsical look by the artist.

I've seen bear masks that don't look like a bear. The snout is so long that you'd think the artist never saw a bear in their life. Other animal masks baffle me until I read the caption telling me what it is supposed to be. They could veer so far from realistic that almost anything goes. Sorta like what artists do. LOL

Could the monkey mask have been inspired by a human face? Of course it could. And pull a huge smile on your face and watch your nose widen and flatten.

I guess you could also ask a believer why it looks like a monkey (not ape) if it's supposed to be a Bigfoot.
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Old 16th December 2013, 06:02 PM   #1369
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Thanks Shrike. Thanks Harry.
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Old 16th December 2013, 06:21 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We don't know what inspired the artist. They may not have seen a monkey ever in their life. It could be a human face with artistic license and we think monkey even if the artist didn't. It could be some other non-primate creature given a whimsical look by the artist.

I've seen bear masks that don't look like a bear. The snout is so long that you'd think the artist never saw a bear in their life. Other animal masks baffle me until I read the caption telling me what it is supposed to be. They could veer so far from realistic that almost anything goes. Sorta like what artists do. LOL

Could the monkey mask have been inspired by a human face? Of course it could. And pull a huge smile on your face and watch your nose widen and flatten.

I guess you could also ask a believer why it looks like a monkey (not ape) if it's supposed to be a Bigfoot.
Exactly.
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Old 16th December 2013, 06:36 PM   #1371
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We don't know what inspired the artist. They may not have seen a monkey ever in their life. It could be a human face with artistic license and we think monkey even if the artist didn't. It could be some other non-primate creature given a whimsical look by the artist.

I've seen bear masks that don't look like a bear. The snout is so long that you'd think the artist never saw a bear in their life. Other animal masks baffle me until I read the caption telling me what it is supposed to be. They could veer so far from realistic that almost anything goes. Sorta like what artists do. LOL

Could the monkey mask have been inspired by a human face? Of course it could. And pull a huge smile on your face and watch your nose widen and flatten.

I guess you could also ask a believer why it looks like a monkey (not ape) if it's supposed to be a Bigfoot.
Compounding the "monkey mask" issue is the "land otter" issue. Apparently, such masks may be linked to a land otter, which some First Nation peoples believed were manifestations of dead humans as animated otter behavior seemed almost uncannily human. In their complex, un-western understanding of nature, Native Americans mixed animal and human attributes freely in their belief systems.

The "monkey mask" may be a mixture of human attributes and those of a land otter, while to us it looks like a monkey. Or, maybe Indian exposure to real monkeys through trade or sailors explains such a mask. Or, as you suggest, it may be just a particular artist's rendering of a human face.

Like most things Bigfoot, we just don't know definitively because of a lack of evidence. For instance, the mask's collector says it represented a mythical creature that lived in the woods and now is called a monkey. Called a monkey by whom? Did the aboriginals believe their land otter/dead souls creature resembled a monkey? Did they "now" call it a monkey? Or did the non-native collector assume it represented a monkey only because it looked like one to him?
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Old 16th December 2013, 06:58 PM   #1372
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It's not rational nor reasonable to think that the mask is of a Bigfoot as a real creature living near the Indians. There really are no artifacts or artwork from those peoples that obviously represents such a thing. Surely if it existed it would have been the most significant creature in their realm. Artwork and fetishes would surely have been dominated by the form. Bigfoot wouldn't just be one of their stories - it would be THE story.
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Old 16th December 2013, 08:40 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
...Like most things Bigfoot, we just don't know definitively because of a lack of evidence. For instance, the mask's collector says it represented a mythical creature that lived in the woods and now is called a monkey. Called a monkey by whom? Did the aboriginals believe their land otter/dead souls creature resembled a monkey? Did they "now" call it a monkey? Or did the non-native collector assume it represented a monkey only because it looked like one to him?
This book extract on Google relates the collectors use of the word monkey as well as another collector of a similar mask, Barbeau, who,

"...said was named pi'kis or "monkey"..."

Just prior to that is the passage, "The naxnox name pa'gwus, tranlsated as "monkey".."

Also, "Their description of the performance associated with teh name sounds very much like desriptions of the land otter."

The name monkey sound very much like a case of an unverified translation of a word being perpetuated by word of mouth - by non-native speakers. Not a terribly reliable cite, IMO.
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Old 17th December 2013, 02:13 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post

Just prior to that is the passage, "The naxnox name pa'gwus, tranlsated as "monkey".."
European: Hey! That looks like a monkey.
Native Indian: Pa'gwus
European: Hmmm...Pa'gwus must mean monkey!
Native Indian to himself: Hmmm...White eyes name for river otter is
"monkey"
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Old 17th December 2013, 07:12 AM   #1375
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Am I the only one who wonders why a population of 9-foot-tall beasts who like to throw rocks at humans didn't result in many robes for Native Americans, some of which should have survived to present time?
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Old 17th December 2013, 08:02 AM   #1376
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Don't think too much about it. Its the key to keep bigfoot belief alive.
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Old 17th December 2013, 09:52 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Am I the only one who wonders why a population of 9-foot-tall beasts who like to throw rocks at humans didn't result in many robes for Native Americans, some of which should have survived to present time?
Never mind the physical relics, Bigfoot would have dominated their myth I would think. As WP pointed out earlier, Bigfoot would have been prominent. Think about how often and how strongly other large predators are featured in native lore such as bears and wolves. If Bigfoot is the apex predator that Footers love to make it out to be, how is it that it is not clearly mentioned at all in their myths? Makes no sense whatsoever.
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Old 17th December 2013, 09:58 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Am I the only one who wonders why a population of 9-foot-tall beasts who like to throw rocks at humans didn't result in many robes for Native Americans, some of which should have survived to present time?
Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
Never mind the physical relics, Bigfoot would have dominated their myth I would think. As WP pointed out earlier, Bigfoot would have been prominent. Think about how often and how strongly other large predators are featured in native lore such as bears and wolves. If Bigfoot is the apex predator that Footers love to make it out to be, how is it that it is not clearly mentioned at all in their myths? Makes no sense whatsoever.
Robes, rugs, skulls, scrimshawed jawbones, teeth, stories to tell Europeans who would then have collected robes, rugs, skulls and stories to tell the folks back home.

Notice the only thing we have are the stories.
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Old 17th December 2013, 08:00 PM   #1379
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Robes, rugs, skulls, scrimshawed jawbones, teeth, stories to tell Europeans who would then have collected robes, rugs, skulls and stories to tell the folks back home.

Notice the only thing we have are the stories.
Notice the only thing we have is footers misrepresenting and deliberately misinterpreting stories...thus the point of this thread.
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Old 17th December 2013, 09:07 PM   #1380
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
This book extract on Google relates the collectors use of the word monkey as well as another collector of a similar mask, Barbeau, who,

"...said was named pi'kis or "monkey"..."

Just prior to that is the passage, "The naxnox name pa'gwus, tranlsated as "monkey".."

Also, "Their description of the performance associated with teh name sounds very much like desriptions of the land otter."

The name monkey sound very much like a case of an unverified translation of a word being perpetuated by word of mouth - by non-native speakers. Not a terribly reliable cite, IMO.
Thanks EH, that is a very relevant piece of info.

Moving over the other artifact, the stone head, this image appeared as plate 40 in a book of uneven scholarship, Manlike Monsters on Trial, edited by Halpin and Ames, 1980:
http://orhistory.com/wordpress/wp-co...tone-Heads.jpg

Incredibly, in Manlike this artifact is defended as evidence for Bigfoot by Roderick Sprague, then professor and head of the anthropology/sociology department at the University of Idaho. He seems to have his (believer's) magic glasses on when examining this and other ambiguous stone heads.

He examines these carvings with an eye on John Green's list of "the outstanding characteristics of the Sasquatch head as derived from 'about a dozen reports.'" (p.233) Sprague sees a "flat face" in this stone head (which he makes possible by manipulating the orientation of the head's position -- a fact he acknowledges: "the unknown specimen from Maryhill Museum (Plate 40) is displayed in the museum in such an orientation as to argue against this interpretation" of its resemblance to a primate.

He fancies the stone head's "sloped forehead" and its supposed "heavy brow ridges." Incredibly, he makes this claim: "This is the portion of the carvings that other investigators would interpret as representing horns. I see this as representing not only supraorbital ridges but also folds of skin characteristic, for example, of adult gorillas." He also sees "what is best described as a sagittal crest" represented on the stone head.

Sprague says that the Maryhill Museum does possess "an excellent example of a true mountain sheep carving." He employs the word "true" so as to distinguish it from his perceived Bigfoot stone head. However, for some reason, he did not include a picture of the "true mountain sheep carving" in his book presentation. Methinks it is because it has a resemblance to his Bigfoot head.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mharrsc...7607725827914/

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Old 18th December 2013, 05:42 AM   #1381
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Notice the only thing we have is footers misrepresenting and deliberately misinterpreting stories...thus the point of this thread.
Which was my point: if First Nation legends actually represented bigfoot, we'd long ago have a bigfoot, or at least representive bigfoot parts.

No, we'd have bigfeets, lots of them.
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Old 18th December 2013, 07:36 PM   #1382
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Agreed. And your point is further evidenced in the Tapir discussion over on other threads.

Here are the crypto"zoologists" declaring, "See, large mammals are being discovered all the time! Proof of bigfoot!!", while missing the point that the local South Americans had been hunting and eating the animal for centuries .... and had skins, skulls and descriptions of the animal. Probably stories as well, as I believe that many SA tribes' beliefs/religions are based in animalism.
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Old 19th December 2013, 06:17 AM   #1383
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Jerry Wayne nice post.

Is the one that is supposed to be a Bigfoot carving cropped?
Is it missing the neck in the photos?
If the neck came in at a angle posterior to the orientation of the head then it is a slam dunk Bighorn sheep.
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Old 19th December 2013, 07:59 AM   #1384
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The Russians were here long before the whalers, and had extensive direct trade with the SE Alaska natives in the 1700's. More kudos to jerrywayne and to Kitikaze for all his work in this thread.

Rockinkt has a good point and the astonishing extent of the monetary system based on Dentalia shells (wampum) is a good example of how far knowledge would have traveled in pre-European contact.

This mask is missing a number of prominent features in monkeys such as the brow and ears. The nose is the wrong proportion.
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Old 19th December 2013, 04:40 PM   #1385
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Jerry Wayne nice post.

Is the one that is supposed to be a Bigfoot carving cropped?
Is it missing the neck in the photos?
If the neck came in at a angle posterior to the orientation of the head then it is a slam dunk Bighorn sheep.
Thanks.

As far as I know the picture is not cropped. The stone head had no neck and this apparently gave Sprague license to orient the figure in a way to give it a "flat face" (in other words, to give it a Bigfoot look.) The museum had oriented its display as a mountain sheep.

Thanks too, Alaska.
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Old 19th December 2013, 08:58 PM   #1386
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The stone carving you are saying is a mountain sheep is obviously one of these...
http://comicbook.com/wp-content/uplo...s-Top-Tenz.jpg
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Old 15th January 2015, 07:50 AM   #1387
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Is there a mythical creature called small foot? Because Indian myths say there should be.

http://www.native-languages.org/little-people.htm
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Old 15th January 2015, 01:44 PM   #1388
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is there a mythical creature called small foot? Because Indian myths say there should be.

http://www.native-languages.org/little-people.htm
A very good point.
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Old 17th January 2015, 01:00 AM   #1389
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is there a mythical creature called small foot? Because Indian myths say there should be.

http://www.native-languages.org/little-people.htm
Unfortunately, they were stamped out by Bigfoot.
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Last edited by rockinkt; 17th January 2015 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 17th January 2015, 06:47 AM   #1390
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Unfortunately, they were stamped out by Bigfoot.
Survival of the footest.
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Old 17th January 2015, 12:31 PM   #1391
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is there a mythical creature called small foot? Because Indian myths say there should be.

http://www.native-languages.org/little-people.htm
I pushed this subject on the BFF ver 1 several years ago. I found a cross tribal study of NA legends the statement was something like "every NA tribe has little people stories."

Along with that, we also have skeletons, sitings, old newspaper accounts...more evidence than Bigfoot!

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/wy-littlepeople.html

http://moundbuilder.blogspot.com/201...ygmy-race.html

The subject was totally ignored by the loyal footers.
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Old 18th January 2015, 02:02 PM   #1392
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Of course, the story was not big enough.
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Old 23rd January 2015, 12:54 AM   #1393
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Originally Posted by Drs_Res View Post
Of course, the story was not big enough.
Well, obviously Bigfoot is two or three of these Smallfoots in an overcoat and clown shoes...
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:25 PM   #1394
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Red Haired Giants of Lovelock Caves

Point:

http://sasquatchresearchers.org/blog...lovelock-cave/

Counterpoint:

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4390
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Old 4th October 2017, 03:39 PM   #1395
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Thanks for that.
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"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
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Old 4th October 2017, 05:14 PM   #1396
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Yeah, it would be better served to post this up at the bff; several members still buy into the Lovelock nonsense, one of them insisting giant bones are on display in some museum.
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