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Tags General Skepticism humor , logical fallacies , pedophilia conspiracies

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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:22 PM   #361
Gilbert Syndrome
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Sometimes when strawman shows up I wonder whether it was was placed intentionally vs unintentionally.

I wonder is the writer serious, or are they intentionally throwing off the discussion, (the latter being the definition of the term of course).

How can one know?
Is Strawman some kind of shoddy superhero?
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Old 3rd October 2017, 04:32 PM   #362
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Often it's a case of no true strawman.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 05:59 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Often it's a case of no true strawman.

I thought that by definition, introducing a strawman is always less than honest.

Intentional introduction of a strawman seems a measure of character or integrity. No member here would ever do it intentionally of course. Thats why I got to thinking of unintentional strawmen.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:07 PM   #364
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
No member here would ever do it intentionally of course.
That statement is a strawman.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:48 PM   #365
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Sometimes it comes with the strawmansplaining.
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Last edited by Apathia; 3rd October 2017 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:50 PM   #366
Apathia
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
No member here would ever do it intentionally of course.
Are you speaking passive-aggressively?
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Old 3rd October 2017, 06:51 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
I thought that by definition, introducing a strawman is always less than honest.

Intentional introduction of a strawman seems a measure of character or integrity. No member here would ever do it intentionally of course. Thats why I got to thinking of unintentional strawmen.
Introductions to the strawman are just proper etiquette.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:29 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Sometimes it comes with the strawmansplaining.
Thanks, that almost made me spew my drink on the screen!
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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:46 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Are you speaking passive-aggressively?

I thought it was called sarcasm. I prefer to go with benefit of doubt when the strawman detection alarm bell rings.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:48 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Is Strawman some kind of shoddy superhero?

Perhaps to some. What kind of superhero garb would Strawman wear?
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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:50 PM   #371
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The appearance of a strawman often indicates that the argument is failing.

The farmer brings the straw scarecrow to the field when the crows are eating the hell out of his corn.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 07:59 PM   #372
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Of the first few search results rationalwiki is the only one mentioning unintentional strawman. Maybe the others presume all stawmen are woven with ulterior motive.


Quote:
A straw man is a logical fallacy which occurs when a debater intentionally misrepresents their opponent's argument as a weaker version, and rebuts said version — rather than their opponent's genuine argument. Intentional strawmanning is usually done with a certain goal in mind, including:

Avoiding real debate against an opponent's real argument, because the misrepresenter risks losing in fair debate
Making the opponent's position appear ridiculous as a way of poisoning the well

Unintentional misrepresentations are also possible, but in this case, the misrepresenter would only be guilty of simple ignorance. While their argument would still be fallacious, they can be at least excused of malice.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 08:00 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That statement is a strawman.

Dueling Strawmen

They use little flamethrowers
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Old 3rd October 2017, 08:54 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
I thought it was called sarcasm. I prefer to go with benefit of doubt when the strawman detection alarm bell rings.
I have a friend who goes headpiece filled with straw every time the Great Wall of Trump is criticized. Just question the logistics and waste of money, and he replies: "Don't you believe a country has the right to control its borders?"
He's not saying this to deceive. He's simply not aware of his fallacy in thinking. Also he has difficulty understanding how he's in error and what the Strawman fallacy means.

Many people kind of drift along with their mental processes without close examination. And you can try to explain to them the disconnect, but if they have an investment in what for them is a moral imperative, a strawman will be an angel.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 08:59 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
That statement is a strawman.
No it isn't.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 09:28 PM   #376
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Typically, the presence of a strawman hints that there are lots of vultures nearby.
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Old 3rd October 2017, 10:58 PM   #377
Apathia
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Typically, the presence of a strawman hints that there are lots of vultures nearby.
No, flying monkeys.
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Last edited by Apathia; 3rd October 2017 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 4th October 2017, 01:57 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Surely you have heard of Operation Mockingbird. We were told it was discontinued after it got outed. We were not told whether or not it was re-named and continues to this day.
I have heard of Operation Mockingbird. I was not aware that any other government apart from the US was involved. I therefore fail to see the relevance to the Edward Heath case.

Do you have any evidence that the operation continued, or is this yet more baseless paranoid speculation?

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post

Evidence, please, for this allegation of government-placed "gatekeepers" in the media whose job it is to protect child abusers from publicity. Or indeed, for any other purpose.
Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
I doubt there is any evidence of "gatekeepers" in the media whose job it is to protect child abusers from publicity, like media not reporting JFK's extramarital exploits back then.

I am not btw saying there actually are gatekeepers in the media whose job it is to protect child abusers from publicity.

Of course your straw government-placed media pedo protectors never existed. Never will. Thats how good straw is made. Of course there were volunteer pedo protecting gatekeepers back in the day. Could still be.

Then please explain the relevance of this:

Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Then there is the information system's record of reliability, and connections to power to consider. Government has placed agents in gatekeeper positions in media for other reasons, a glimpse of the range of possibilities in one arena of corrupted power, and the black arts of deception.
If there are no gatekeepers, or they do not protect paedophiles from public reporting, then what was your point here?

You then go on to say there actually were, but volunteers. How did that work, then?
Regarding your continued references to ancient history: are you aware that the world has changed since the 1960's? Are you also aware that reporting of politicians sexual peccadilloes has been a feature of the British press for years? Do the words "Profumo affair" mean anything to you? It also happens in the US. Have you heard of Monica Lewinsky?

Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Off topic musing:

I wonder if there is data on what % of strawmen are created unintentionally vs intentionally. I have been in face to face conversations where I was sure some were made unintentionally, which is interesting. Intentionally placed strawmen are easy to understand and not so interesting. The spontaneous unconscious creation of unintentional strawmen is more interesting, IMO.
I don't know, Bubba. You say there were gatekeepers, and imply they protect child abusers. When called on it, you say there weren't. Then you say there were, but volunteers.
It seems to me, given the inconsistent and contradictory nature of your posts, that it would be quite easy to label any challenge as a strawman, so as to avoid having to back up anything you say. Is this your intention?
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Old 4th October 2017, 07:43 AM   #379
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The structure of the strawman fallacy - that which makes it a fallacy - is independent from the intentions or other mental states of the speaker. It is therefore unreasonable to guess intentions. Strawman is strawman.

In discussions with 9/11 Truthers I often wonder at many fallacies and failures of perception of reality: can thsi be intentional? They MUST sense they are plain wrong!? The only way forward is to point out the fallacy. Not to reprimand the other side for ill intent.

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Old 4th October 2017, 09:06 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The structure of the strawman fallacy - that which makes it a fallacy - is independent from the intentions or other mental states of the speaker. It is therefore unreasonable to guess intentions. Strawman is strawman.

In discussions with 9/11 Truthers I often wonder at many fallacies and failures of perception of reality: can thsi be intentional? They MUST sense they are plain wrong!? The only way forward is to point out the fallacy. Not to reprimand the other side for ill intent.

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Yes, however for future consideration of character and what to expect, it can be useful to know if the speaker is intentionally making up strawmen. My experience is that pointing out the fallacy takes time away from discussion.
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Old 5th October 2017, 12:37 AM   #381
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delete, move

Last edited by Bubba; 5th October 2017 at 12:44 AM. Reason: wrong tread
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Old 5th October 2017, 12:46 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Interesting, and more recent. More research will be needed on this

Researchers at Boston University say "The startling global resurgence of pertussis, or whooping cough, in recent years can largely be attributed to the immunological failures of acellular vaccines, School of Public Health researchers argue in a new journal article."

Resurgence of Whooping Cough May Owe to Vaccine’s Inability to Prevent Infections

https://www.bu.edu/sph/2017/09/21/re...nt-infections/
No kidding, Sherlock. Some medical research may be called for. Duh!

In other news, scientists determine that water is wet!
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Old 5th October 2017, 08:27 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Perhaps to some. What kind of superhero garb would Strawman wear?
Bubba threads, obviously.
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Old 5th October 2017, 10:33 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Wow, that is some smoking gun. A z-list musician spews some self-aggrandizing yellow gossip to acquaintances, film at 11!

What does cocaine have to do with child rape, again?

Using cocaine is depraved. Child rape is depraved.

Obviously the two go hand in hand.

That's just logic.

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Old 6th October 2017, 01:19 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Perhaps to some. What kind of superhero garb would Strawman wear?
A container of glyphosate with holes for arms and legs?
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