ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bigfoot , native american myths

Reply
Old 4th February 2008, 07:30 AM   #81
Spektator
Dog Who Laughs
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,571
I was in the library as soon as it opened this morning and have spent nearly an hour and a half looking at microfiche of the Journals of each Provincial Congress of Massachusetts, 1774-1775. They contain a description of Fort Ticonderoga, an assessment of its strategic value, and an account of Ethan Allen and Benedict Arnold's capture of the fort, but nary a word about bigfoot or sasquatches, so far as I can tell (the whole is 778 pages, but I read only the passages relevant to Ticonderoga). I have ordered two histories of the fort, so when they come in, I'll check for bigfoot prints.

By the way, we also have a book called Reason the Only Oracle of Man by Ethan Allen himself. He takes a deist's view of religion and argues that miracles are logically impossible and should be regarded with a skeptical eye. Not really germane, but again no mention of bigfeet, apes, or sasquatches (though it's clear Allen would argue against their being paranormal, as he does not believe in the paranormal).

Edited to add: It would really help if we had a source for the Fort Ticonderoga/bigfoot story. Where is it from?

Last edited by Spektator; 4th February 2008 at 07:31 AM.
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th February 2008, 03:19 PM   #82
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
One of the first prime examples that I was thinking of looking at is one that I have seen put forward by bigfoot enthusiasts countless time is Dsonoqua, The Wild Woman of the Woods. A classic boogeyman type figure, she is a mythical being of the Kwakiutl people of the northern tip of Vancouver Island and the adjacent BC coast who is said to be a stealer of children.

I think what you have here is the classic case of footers highjacking a native myth and trying to wrench it into bigfoot evidence. It seems clear from all that I've seen so far that dsonoqua was held by the Kwakiutl to be a boogeyman type figure and not the representation of a species of 8ft giant bipedal primate that they shared their land with. I will look further into this.
I went upstairs this morning to take a look at a few of my indian books.
Applying my own experience, my mother's (Gwich'n) denial of sasquatch in the Alaskan Interior, and the few books I have here is my opinion.
I lean towards the Dzonokwa of the Kwakiutl. The book where I found reference was Indians by William Brandon, but he used the term Cannibal at the North End of the World. It was referencing a society of Kwakiutl that were dancing for a 'naked worman'. They would fast until emaciated, then reappear wild and hungry, and eat a type of meat representing flesh.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2008, 06:48 AM   #83
Cuddles
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,522
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
and eat a type of meat representing flesh.
Representing? Meat is flesh.
Cuddles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2008, 07:52 AM   #84
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Representing? Meat is flesh.
I didn't feel it necessary to point out, but okay.

Dog meat representing human flesh.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 05:37 AM   #85
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,443
Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
I was in the library as soon as it opened this morning and have spent nearly an hour and a half looking at microfiche of the Journals of each Provincial Congress of Massachusetts, 1774-1775. ...
I think I've found this in PDF form as an eBook:

http://www.archive.org/details/journ...chpr00massuoft

It may be easier to search in this format?
ETA: The entire PDF is searchable.

ETA: Excellent posts Kitakaze. Entertaining as well as informative reading.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage

Last edited by EHocking; 6th February 2008 at 05:43 AM.
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 07:09 AM   #86
Spektator
Dog Who Laughs
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,571
[Double post. I'll delete this one and apologize.]

Last edited by Spektator; 6th February 2008 at 08:01 AM.
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 08:00 AM   #87
Spektator
Dog Who Laughs
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,571
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
I think I've found this in PDF form as an eBook:

http://www.archive.org/details/journ...chpr00massuoft

It may be easier to search in this format?
ETA: The entire PDF is searchable.

ETA: Excellent posts Kitakaze. Entertaining as well as informative reading.
Yes, same document! Thank you very much. As well as being readily searchable, this version is actually much easier on the eyes than the microform in our library, too.

The account of the fall of Fort Ticonderoga (which I had read in our library, too) is on pages 234-235, extracted from a report given by Benedict Arnold (at that time still fighting on the American side). A recap of the report is on page 239. The fort is referenced again on page 250; on pages 258-259 an account of the fort's supplies and armament is summarized.

Further mentions: the fort's supplies are referenced again on page 263, together with a note on the importance of maintaining the fort; on 264-269 is a copy of a letter to Arnold saying that Col. Joseph Henshaw has been sent to secure and maintain the fort, with attached remarks on the strategic importance of Ticonderoga; on 281 and 287, passing references to the fort, along with a letter directing Arnold to continue in command of the fortess until further notice; on 288, Arnold's reply; on 290 and 293 a committee to oversee the expenses of supplying Ticonderoga is mentioned. Then on 296 time is set aside for Henshaw to deliver his report on securing and maintaining the fortress; on 310 notice is taken of pork sent to the fort as rations; on 321-322 and 324-325 a committee is created to survey the physical structure of the fort and a resolution affirming its strategic importance is passed; on 327-329 the committee reports. On 331 a horse is requisitioned so Mr. Sullivan can travel to the fortress. On 332, a payment of four hundred pounds to the inspecting committee is authorized, so they can pay the soldiers occupying the fort; they themselves get an advance of twenty pounds against their expenses. On 372, in a footnote, Ticonderoga is quiet with no enemies in sight. Pages 409-410 contain an account of the Battle of Bunker Hill (not called that, since it was not actually fought on the hill) and mentions in passing that Ticonderoga is exposed to possible enemy action. On 461 the Ticonderoga survey committee is thanked and commended; on 462 and 464-465, their report is considered. On 468-469, the four hundred pounds to pay the soldiers is not forthcoming because the treasury is low; but on 490, an officer is granted 100 pounds in payment for his services under Arnold. 501 has another request for money to pay the soldiers, this time 1200 pounds. On 529 is an inventory of weapons in the fort. Page 521 goes back to before Arnold's and Allen's taking of the fort and reproduces a letter authorizing their expedition. On 534 is the text of the order designating Arnold as the commander of the captured fort. Pages 635-724 record letters and other documents dealing specifically with the assault on and capture of the fort and its manning by American forces (the section I read in our library). Thereafter, only incidental mentions of the fortress. Indians are mentioned on sixty pages, never in conjunction with any legends or stories of man-like beasts (usually the Committee for Public Safety is concerned to maintain good relations with them; at one point, Arnold asks for reinforcements, fearing an assault by British regulars supported by Native Americans).

I can find no mention of monstrous human-like creatures.

Last edited by Spektator; 6th February 2008 at 09:34 AM.
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 08:37 AM   #88
Orthoptera
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 117
Perhaps you should be looking for a page of yellow legal paper...
http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/showpos...postcount=3517
Orthoptera is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 09:22 AM   #89
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
I was in the library as soon as it opened this morning and have spent nearly an hour and a half looking at microfiche of the Journals of each Provincial Congress of Massachusetts, 1774-1775.
Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
I can find no mention of monstrous human-like creatures.
Thank you very much for your time and effort, Spektator. It is most appreciated. I don't know how they missed the bigfoots.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 09:26 AM   #90
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
ETA: Excellent posts Kitakaze. Entertaining as well as informative reading.
Also thank you, EHocking. It's been entertaining and informative to look into.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 09:33 AM   #91
Spektator
Dog Who Laughs
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,571
Originally Posted by Orthoptera View Post
Perhaps you should be looking for a page of yellow legal paper...
http://72.32.2.238/forumlive/showpos...postcount=3517
Thanks, Orthoptera. I appreciate those who (a year ago!) pointed out the difficulty of Putnam's being a part of THAT particular incident, since he wasn't in the neighborhood at the time! Now, the original claim was that when Fort Ticonderoga was first built, the European builders encountered harassment from bigfeet, or bigfeetoids, or reasonable facsimiles thereof. The Revolutionary records don't go back that far, of course, so I've ordered some histories of the fortifications in Ticonderoga/Crown Point. And I don't know from the original claim if the initial builders were the French, who erected Fort Carillon and some outlying fortifications, or the British. Moreover, I don't know the source of the claim--a poster just said it happened without citing a reference. That makes research harder, but more interesting, I suppose.
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 12:23 PM   #92
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
And the weird gets weirder. Just a little addendum on native myth bigfoot guru guy Henry Franzoni. I was searching his name for some pictures of him with Jon-Erik Beckjord (the paranormal bigfoot nutjob that just got banned from here for the 42nd time) when I noticed a BFRO listing that didn't show his name in bold. I gave it a click and what did I find?:

Quote:
Report # 657 (Class B)
Submitted by witness Henry Franzoni (caveman@teleport.com) on Friday, January 05, 1996.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A man and woman report smelling a strange, powerful odor while on a forest road late at night
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Show Printer-friendly Version)
YEAR: 1993

SEASON: Summer

MONTH: August

DATE: 2

STATE: Oregon

COUNTY: Clackamas County

LOCATION DETAILS: Near Skookum Lake, near FS road 54

NEAREST ROAD: FS road 54

OBSERVED: We, my girlfriend and I, smelled an indescribable smell high in the Cascade Mountains. This occured at 1:00am-2:00am

There were two witnesses, my girlfriend and myself.

My girlfriend fell asleep for 30 minutes upon smelling the smell. It could have been fright, it could have been something else.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Follow-up investigation report:

The place name "Skookum" is one of several American Indian words for Bigfoot.

From the Western Bigfoot Society public reports page.
"I heard this terrible sound, like someone stepping on a duck, and then my eyes started to burn real bad."

Wicked fart? That's Class B.

Oh yeah, skookum means bigfoot like munchkin means orang pendek.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 6th February 2008 at 12:24 PM.
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 02:24 PM   #93
Spektator
Dog Who Laughs
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,571
Thanks, kitakaze, for that nose-witness report!

One of the histories of Ticonderoga (the collection of primary documents) came in this afternoon. I have time tonight to read through the relevant chapters regarding the fort's construction. I'll see what I can find.
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 04:38 PM   #94
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,141
Native Americans, Mormons, and Bigfoot.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

Last edited by William Parcher; 6th February 2008 at 04:39 PM.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 05:32 PM   #95
mangler
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 391
Kit,

Good thread and it got me thinking. I had brief recollections of research I did on Omah back in the 80’s and I found some notes that I had taken from a book titled “To the American Indian” by Lucy Thompson. Thompson was a Klamath/Yurok, Talth/Chief/Spirtual Leader who saw her people’s history being misrepresented by the white mans history books. She figured she needed to write a book about the way it was before all recollection was lost. To the American Indian was written in 1916.

I was going to babble using my notes, but der, there is this thing called the internet now and by golly look at what I found. Some of the pages are missing but I think you’re all intelligent enough to figure it out. You can really see the difference between her referencing Oh-Mah-Hah and say Thomas Buckley.

http://books.google.com/books?id=o5Q...VOEs#PPA185,M1

After The Wild Indian of Mo-reck back pedal up to page 170 for most of the Romance of a Wild Indian.



m
mangler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 06:02 PM   #96
Crowlogic
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,147
Biologist John Perry writes....

"For example, the area along the border of Vermont and New York, roughly between Albany north to Crown Point on Lake Champlain, has had sightings dating back to the French and Indian Wars up to the present."

Crown Point is close enough to Fort Ticonderoga that if Fort Ticonderoga sneezes Crown Point gets a cold. However said creatures were conspiciously absent while I was dispatched to that area.
Crowlogic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2008, 06:10 PM   #97
tube
Muse
 
tube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 917
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I was searching his name for some pictures of him with Jon-Erik Beckjord (the paranormal bigfoot nutjob that just got banned from here for the 42nd time)


Later, dude...
__________________
Bigfoot is everywhere, yet nowhere. LTC8K6

(Bigfoot) evidence doesn't look better on deeper analysis, it looks worse. David Daegling

The Bigfoot hypothesis is tested daily.
tube is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2008, 06:22 AM   #98
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,443
Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
Yes, same document! Thank you very much. As well as being readily searchable, this version is actually much easier on the eyes than the microform in our library, too.
<snip summary>
I can find no mention of monstrous human-like creatures.
While I was googling for this and then reading it, I found that the fort was built from 1755-58.

Crowlogic's claim was the the sighting of the BF creature was being built
Quote:
In the mid 1700's when soldiers and engineers were sent to construct the fort along the Hudson River they reported seeing large ape like creatures in the area.
, so this document doesn't cover the period of Crowlogic's claim. He cites a biologist's account (John Perry?) but hasn't cited a source of the quote that I've seen.

Sorry I was late in noticing that point.

ETA: Sorry I was late in noticing that the discussion had progressed while typing my reply!
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage

Last edited by EHocking; 7th February 2008 at 06:25 AM.
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2008, 06:39 AM   #99
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,443
Originally Posted by Crowlogic View Post
Biologist John Perry writes....

"For example, the area along the border of Vermont and New York, roughly between Albany north to Crown Point on Lake Champlain, has had sightings dating back to the French and Indian Wars up to the present."
Do you have a source for this quote? Paper? Book? Interview? Blog?
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2008, 07:32 AM   #100
Spektator
Dog Who Laughs
 
Spektator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,571
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
(snip) Crowlogic's claim was the the sighting of the BF creature was being built , so this document doesn't cover the period of Crowlogic's claim. He cites a biologist's account (John Perry?) but hasn't cited a source of the quote that I've seen.

(snip)
I know that, but I was going with the research materials we had at hand. I read through a history of Fort Ticonderoga last night. My report:

Sasquatches at Fort Ticonderoga?

The first of the two books that I ordered through Interlibrary Loan came in:

Pell, S.H.P., ed. Fort Ticonderoga: A Short History, Compiled from Contemporary Sources. Rpt. Fort Ticonderoga Museum, 1975.

Chapter 1 covers “The Aborigines” and has no mention of Sasquatch or anything like it.

Chapter 2 is “Champlain” and includes Champlain’s description of the countryside, including the flora and fauna; no mention of a Sasquatch. Then Chapters three, four, five, and six cover the building of the fort and the period up to the Revolutionary War. Here we go:

In 1755 Michel Chartier (later Marquis de Lotbiniere), at the direction of the Marquis de Vandreuil, the Governor-General of New France, explored the vicinity to establish a new fort. The third chapter consists of Chartier’s reports back to Vandreuil. He determined to establish the new fort near Mount Pelee (today Mount Defiance). In October, 1755, in charge of a work force of 2000 French soldiers, Chartier cleared land, felled trees, dug entrenchments, and began to erect the fort. Plans called for a stone edifice, but lacking masons and equipment, Chartier first built using native oak. His account talks of the problems and challenges the soldiers faced, notes how rapidly the basic structure went up, and nowhere mentions either Native Americans or Sasquatches.

Indeed, according to this record the most irritating interruption came from Robert Rogers, leaders of Rogers’ Rangers, who on behalf of the British scouted and spied on the fort and raided the cattle owned by the French.

Chartier complains that when cold weather came, the bulk of the soldiers left the fort and returned to Crown Point; the remaining garrison of soldiers refused to work in the cold, and lacking military rank, Chartier could not compel them to work. He left in February, 1756, wintering in Montreal, but returned later that spring and resumed operations. The fort was strengthened and work began on stone structures (the first of these being two garrisons inside the walls). In 1756, Chartier rechristened the fort; it had been Fort Vandreuil, but because the sound of waterfalls reminded Chartier of the sounds of bells in the distance, he renamed it Fort Carillon. Work went on during the warmer months of 1756 and 1757 with few interruptions; ground was cleared around the fort to accommodate tent space for an army of 3,000 men during this time, should the occasion arise.

Again, no mention of Sasquatches.

In 1758, by which time the fort was almost complete, the British general Abercromby dispatched a large force to take the French fort, under the command of George Augustus, Viscount Howe. The Native American allies of the French harried the British, and the French attacked before they could besiege the fort, killing Lord Howe in the first assault. The British retreated in disorder. The book includes a report on the debacle by Howe’s aide, Captain Monypenny. Both French and British descriptions of the fighting are included. No Sasquatches.

In 1759, however, British General Jeffrey Amherst led another British force, and this time they took the fort, which they renamed Ticonderoga. The French defenders, in a last-ditch effort, set fire to the wooden structures of the fort, but the British salvaged an impressive number of cannon, and in a report on the action, the British Eli Forbush describes the action and tells how the British began to repair the fortifications.

No Sasquatches.

The accounts are pretty circumstantial, but of course the only thing I can really report is that none of them anywhere mention man-like creatures or Native legends about such beings.

ETA: There's this: http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

...but that isn't much to go on.

Last edited by Spektator; 7th February 2008 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Adding a reference
Spektator is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2008, 06:40 AM   #101
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,443
Originally Posted by EHocking
(snip) Crowlogic's claim was the the sighting of the BF creature was being built , so this document doesn't cover the period of Crowlogic's claim. He cites a biologist's account (John Perry?) but hasn't cited a source of the quote that I've seen.

(snip)


Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
I know that, but I was going with the research materials we had at hand. I read through a history of Fort Ticonderoga last night. My report:

Sasquatches at Fort Ticonderoga?<snip good stuff>
Understood you were just being thorough.
*I* didn't want to be responsible for you scanning through all of that for no reason.

Oh and also got pointed to a Perry web page article. No bibliography to back his quotes either. Unless I missed something, which is entirely possible as I only cruise the BF threads and am not going to try to catch up on the longer ones.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2008, 08:11 AM   #102
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
He is, you are, I am, and so is everybody currently inhaling and exhaling.



Relevant. Hilarious and relevant.



I chocolate Wednesday finger manager it kiwi.
You obviously don't understand the use of the word contemporary. That's understandable.

Is that it for your further research into dzonokwa and bukwus. What about baxbaxwalanuksiwe? Speaking of research
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2008, 09:31 AM   #103
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,141
Correa, the blog page works for me.

Coleman has his hands full because the topic is about religion. Nothing his says will change how people deal with that subject. The responses are quite interesting and revealing of those who post on his blog. Even if you put the religion aspect aside, you can still see the crazy 'cryptozoologists' with their crazy fantasies in full display.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2008, 09:31 PM   #104
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
An Alaskan Native Journey

In case anyone has a mistaken view of cryptid hunting, I have a link here.

A Winter Day's Cryptid Hunt
http://community.webshots.com/user/oheokai
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 03:11 AM   #105
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,443
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by manofthesea
Are you a contemporary of Loren Coleman?
Kitikaze:He is, you are, I am, and so is everybody currently inhaling and exhaling.
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
You obviously don't understand the use of the word contemporary. That's understandable.
Actually, if you look it up in a dictionary, Kitikaze has demonstrated that he has a better grasp of the meaning of the word than you do.
Quote:
Is that it for your further research into dzonokwa and bukwus.
What more is needed? Kitikaze has identified that the people who's legends they are identify them as spirits/gods rather than physical beings, and then, as singular entities not as a group of beings/animals/BF.
I think it's sufficient.[/quote]Kitikaze's summary of these being mythicala
Quote:
What about baxbaxwalanuksiwe? Speaking of research
Yet another singular entity, which, according to the legend, is extinct anyway.
...baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions. In short the men are able to destroy the man-eating giant and gain mystical power and supernatural treasures from him."
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage

Last edited by EHocking; 9th February 2008 at 03:47 AM. Reason: quoting
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 04:46 AM   #106
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
EHocking beat me to it but I'll underscore what he's already posted.
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
You obviously don't understand the use of the word contemporary. That's understandable.
I would really appreciate it if you would enlighten me. See, the thing is that I have a rather Tolkien-esque interest in languages and words and their meanings. That's why I really like this forum. It keeps me sharp when I speak and am surrounded by Japanese on my day to day basis. There's a lot of very intelligent people around to learn from also. Also, I always keep an Obunsha's Epoch English-Japanese Japanese-English dictionary by the computer for whenever I get can't remember the correct definition or spelling of a word.

Anyway, I see a word like 'contemporary' and the first thing I think of are words like 'temporary' or 'temporal'. I think of the Latin 'tempus' for time and the prefix 'com' such as you see in 'communication' or 'community' which one could think of as intimating 'together', I believe. It leads me to quickly recognize that 'contempory' is an adjective and a noun that connotates 'being of the same time'. I believe this can be used for people, things, and events. If you know of another commonly accepted use of the word 'contemporary' then please tell me.





Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Is that it for your further research into dzonokwa and bukwus. What about baxbaxwalanuksiwe? Speaking of research
As I said, EHocking got to it before I did but it does bring up some interesting mythology and the always fun subject of cannibalism (specifically in the Pacific NorthWest). BTW, are you aware of bigfooters contending baxbaxwalanuksiwe as a correlary of bigfoot or was that just your suggestion? I know you think wikipedia is for kids but:

Quote:
Hamatsa
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Hamatsa is the name of a Kwakwaka'wakw secret society. During the winter months the Kwakwaka'wakw of British Columbia have many ceremonials practiced by different secret societies. The Hamatsa society is the most prestigious of all. It is often called a "cannibal" ritual, and some debate has arisen as to whether the Kwakwaka'wakw do or do not practice ritual cannibalism, whether their "cannibalism" is purely symbolic, or actually literal. Because of the secret nature of the society the answer is not forthcoming.

Central to the Hamatsa ceremonies is the story of some brothers who got lost on a hunting trip and found a strange house with red smoke emanating from its roof. When they visited the house they found its owner gone, but one of the house posts was a living woman with her legs rooted into the floor, and she warned them about the frightful owner of the house, who was named Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions. In short the men are able to destroy the man-eating giant and gain mystical power and supernatural treasures from him.

In practice the Hamatsa initiate, almost always a young man, is abducted by members of the Hamatsa society and kept in the forest in a secret location where he is instructed in the mysteries of the society. Then at a winter dance festival to which many clans and neighboring tribes are invited the spirit of the man-eating giant is evoked and the initiate is brought in wearing spruce bows and gnashing his teeth and even biting members of the audience. Many dances ensue, as the tale of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe is recounted, and all of the giant man-eating birds dance around the fire.

Finally the society members succeed in taming the new "cannibal" initiate. In the process of the ceremonies what seems to be human flesh is eaten by the initiates. All persons who were bitten during the proceedings are gifted with expensive presents, and many gifts are given to all of the witnesses who are required to recall through their gifts the honors bestowed on the new initiate and recognize his station within the spiritual community of the clan and tribe.





Bibliography
The mouth of heaven: An introduction to Kwakiutl religious thought by Irving Goldman

Hamatsa: The Enigma of Cannibalism on the Pacific Northwest Coast by Jim McDowell

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamatsa"
No bigfoot there. Now to reiterate about dsonoqua and bukwus.

Bukwus:

Quote:
Bakwas is king of the ghosts. He is a small green spirit whose face looks emaciated like a skeleton, but has a long curving nose. He haunts the forests and tries to bring the living over to the world of the dead.
Dsonoqua:

Quote:
In Kwakwaka'wakw mythology Dzunukwa is the "wild woman of the forest". She is an ancestor of the Namgis clan through her son, Tsilwalagame. She is venerated as a bringer of wealth, but is also greatly feared by children, because she is also known as an ogress who steals children and carries them home in her basket to eat.
What would be helpful for proponents of the dsonoqua=bigfoot idea is if we could find maybe something like a historical record from traders or the like meeting with the Kwakiutl and being told something to the effect of "Please mind the dsonoquas. They live in the surrounding area and are a race of hairy giants that often harrass us and take our kids. BTW, does that boom-stick of yours work on dsonoquas and maybe also bukwus?"

Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Evasion noted.
You're being weird and quoting yourself again. See, it's Saturday on my side of the planet. As much as I enjoy this forum, I do have a life with commitments. If you are presenting me with a question that I continually and conspicuously avoid answering while continuing to post in the thread where the question was presented then I believe you could characterize that as 'evasion'. You do understand the use of the word 'evasion', don't you?
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 9th February 2008 at 04:50 AM. Reason: a/an, than/then
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 04:59 AM   #107
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
I've never edited a wikipedia article before but the entry on Kwakwaka'wakw (Kwakiutl) mythology needs some editing. Yes, MOTS, I know wikipedia is not perfect.

Quote:
Dzunukwa (Tsonokwa) is a type of cannibal giant (called sasquatch by other Northwest Coast tribes) and comes in both male and female forms. In most legends, the female form is the most commonly told; she eats children and cries "hu-hu!" to attract them, she imitates the child's grandmother's voice. Children frequently outwit her and sometimes killing her and taking her treasures without being eaten.
It would certainly pass unnoticed by the casual observer but that is very erroneous statement.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 07:08 AM   #108
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere in Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,660
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Children frequently outwit her and sometimes killing her and taking her treasures without being eaten.
Outwitting and killing a sasquatch is so easy even a child could do it?

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio
RayG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 07:38 AM   #109
Maldon
Thinker
 
Maldon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: denmark
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Outwitting and killing a sasquatch is so easy even a child could do it?

RayG
That may just be the clue all the BF-hunters have been waiting for!
No need for dogs, game-cams and other gear, just bring a child!

If Creekfreak see this: I'm only joking!
Maldon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 09:18 AM   #110
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,443
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I've never edited a wikipedia article before but the entry on Kwakwaka'wakw (Kwakiutl) mythology needs some editing. Yes, MOTS, I know wikipedia is not perfect.

It would certainly pass unnoticed by the casual observer but that is very erroneous statement.
... and the sasquatch entry has the BFRO misquote of Goodall saying she is sure they exist.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 11:16 AM   #111
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
EHocking beat me to it but I'll underscore what he's already posted.
"Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man eating giant" is in your quotes. What else do you need? Where does it point out that bigfooters point to this figure? I've seen no mention of this name at BFF since I started frequenting there since May 2007.

You like to use 'blanket statements'. But you did not use baxbaxwalanuksiwe in your OP, did you? I found that term in 'Indians' by William Brandon. Now you're saying bigfooters believe it to be him. What makes you say that? What obscure reference are you now trying to apply to all of bigfootdom?

Last edited by manofthesea; 9th February 2008 at 11:50 AM.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 11:21 AM   #112
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Outwitting and killing a sasquatch is so easy even a child could do it?

RayG
Read his whole post. 'She' is not sasquatch. And I don't think it was referring to today's dough boy generation.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 11:57 AM   #113
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
You need an ally? Perhaps German?

It's a shame that the brightest skeptic here, in my opinion, needs an english dictionary. But hey, this isn't about world domination, is it?

You see, this isn't like the search for Eldorado, "just over the next hill" hehe.
This is about a creature that many people have witnessed. And debating it's historical or mythological name isn't going to prove or disprove it's existence. (grasping for the wind)
But I lean towards baxbaxwalanuksiwe. Interestingly, I nicknamed by son Boks about 20 years ago when he was just a child.

I do not have one single 'bigfoot' book. I had the encounters as a child. I do however, have books dealing with various 'americana' subjects. Like indians, hawaiians, religion, mlk, and literature. A brief look through a couple of my indian books led me to baxbaxwalanuksiwe.
It was that simple. William Brandon referenced a 'secret society' that revered the man eater, cannibal. It was really that obvious. Are you telling me that this society has still not been fully uncovered? We know about the illuminati, freemasons, good 'ole boys, but not the Cannibal Society.

Last edited by manofthesea; 9th February 2008 at 12:36 PM.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 07:58 PM   #114
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,141
The Journal of Mormon History recently published a new investigation into stories suggesting that the giant Sasquatch monster is really Cain, the murderous second son of Adam and Eve.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 08:40 PM   #115
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,141
The name Sasquatch made its English-language appearance in an article in the Canadian magazine Maclean's in 1929. Since then it has spread far beyond the Halkomelem, so that today it is often used as the generic name for the "Bigfoot" of North America.

Quote:
[Halkomelem (Salishan language of southwest British Columbia) sε´sq'əč.]

[Sasahevas - Halkomelem Language - Salish Indian - "Sasquatch" - "Wild Man of the Woods"] Mizokami, Franzoni, and Glickman.

Wikipedia: Halkomelem language

Big Cryptozoology blog on this same topic.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 08:47 PM   #116
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere in Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,660
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Read his whole post. 'She' is not sasquatch. And I don't think it was referring to today's dough boy generation.
My reading is fine. Since you don't have any bigfoot books, how can you be certain she's not a sasquatch? Did you miss the "called sasquatch by other Northwest Coast tribes" part that was highlighted by kitakaze? If not a sasquatch, then what?

The Dzoonokwa - Dzonokwa - Tsonokwa - Dzunukwa, was supposedly a giant, black, fur-covered critter with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair, that walked upright and was constantly on the lookout for misbehaving children to stuff in a basket, which she carried on her big hairy back.

Certainly seems to describe a sasquatch.

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio

Last edited by RayG; 9th February 2008 at 08:52 PM.
RayG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 09:41 PM   #117
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Who Needs Books?

Originally Posted by RayG View Post
My reading is fine. Since you don't have any bigfoot books, how can you be certain she's not a sasquatch? Did you miss the "called sasquatch by other Northwest Coast tribes" part that was highlighted by kitakaze? If not a sasquatch, then what?

The Dzoonokwa - Dzonokwa - Tsonokwa - Dzunukwa, was supposedly a giant, black, fur-covered critter with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair, that walked upright and was constantly on the lookout for misbehaving children to stuff in a basket, which she carried on her big hairy back.

Certainly seems to describe a sasquatch.

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?

RayG
That's terrific. We're getting somewhere now. I'll save this post.

But I am now looking at picking up a few bigfoot books. Any recommendations. My first choice is Raincoast Sasquatch.

Last edited by manofthesea; 9th February 2008 at 09:51 PM.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 10:03 PM   #118
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere in Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,660
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
That's terrific. We're getting somewhere now. I'll save this post.
If you don't mind speculating, can you have a quick gander at the two questions I posed? They were:

If not a sasquatch, then what?

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?


Quote:
But I am now looking at picking up a few bigfoot books. Any recommendations. My first choice is Raincoast Sasquatch.
The three I reach for most often are Big Footprints, by Grover Krantz; Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us, by John Green; and Bigfoot Exposed: An Anthropologist Examines America's Enduring Legend, by David Daegling.

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio
RayG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 10:38 PM   #119
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by RayG View Post
If you don't mind speculating, can you have a quick gander at the two questions I posed? They were:

If not a sasquatch, then what?

Just how many giant, black, fur-covered critters with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair are there roaming the woods anyway?


The three I reach for most often are Big Footprints, by Grover Krantz; Sasquatch: The Apes Among Us, by John Green; and Bigfoot Exposed: An Anthropologist Examines America's Enduring Legend, by David Daegling.

RayG
Concerning the first, I am under the presumption that sasquatch was referred to as 'Cannibal (Maneater) at the North End of the World' translated as Baxbaxwalanuksiwe. I saw mention of "helper birds (types?)" and presumed dzonokwa to be one of these. This book, Indians, is a "one volume account of the American Indians" and did not get into detailed, individual tribal beliefs. I was wrong, concerning the word dzonokwa, being that dzonokwa and bukwu are the common terms used. (male and female?) Hence the desire to acquire Raincoast Sasquatch. My book collection is mostly reference material, without detailed modern usages of the words used.

As far as their number and distribution, I suspect their population to be small. As far as distribution and the related sightings nationwide, there could be a number of various reasons. Though, if they are 'human', they could very well be aware of periods when it would be safe to be in certain areas, perhaps relative to hunting seasons, reintroduction of certain predator species, disease, etc.

I'll be sure to look for those particular books.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2008, 11:14 PM   #120
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Concerning Northwest Tribal Myths

I think that it is very important to understand that when dealing with tribal stories from the Pacific Northwest and Alaska, that these tribes have mostly remained intact and inhabit the same locations 'they always have'. These tribes mostly have not been relocated and mixed with other tribes. So, their stories and myths may be more precise when dealing with certain subjects.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.