ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bigfoot , native american myths

Reply
Old 10th February 2008, 12:37 AM   #121
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Colville Reservation

I did have a friend growing up on Beacon Hill who spent most of his childhood on the Colville, and he mentioned a couple times to me that "Bigfoot is real", knowing of my encounter. I never really thought much about that being that the Colville res is in eastern Washington, the 'desert'. But now, actually reading a little bit about the stories of sasquatch, and the amount of 'green' mountains and rivers and creeks out east it does make sense to me. East of the Cascades, that is.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 02:44 AM   #122
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by RayG View Post
The Dzoonokwa - Dzonokwa - Tsonokwa - Dzunukwa, was supposedly a giant, black, fur-covered critter with pendulous breasts and bushy unkempt hair, that walked upright and was constantly on the lookout for misbehaving children to stuff in a basket, which she carried on her big hairy back.
According to the presented visual documentation, sasquatch ladies have great big, rock-hard boobs set in the middle of the torso.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 10th February 2008 at 03:28 AM. Reason: grammar
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 09:11 AM   #123
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
This is at least the fifth time I've asked.
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
You offered a suggestion and I checked it and found no evidence of it being a term put forth by bigfoot enthusiasts as a correlary to bigfoot other than yourself. Thus I asked you that question. Do you understand?
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Then it's all mine. I suggest that baxbaxwalanuksiwe is sasquatch.
I'll take that as an admission that you understand that I never claimed that bigfoot enthusiasts believe that baxbaxwalanuksiwe is a correlary of bigfoot, no apologies necessary. So you think it is. That's odd, why do you think a singular man-eating giant with four man-eating bird companions is a correlary of bigfoot? Do you know of any incidents of bigfoots eating people?

Quote:
However, if you'd check your preferred source, wikipedia, it shows the word when dealing with dzonokwa.
Yes, it erroneously states that dsonoqua is called sasquatch by other NorthWest coast tribes. We covered that on page three.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 10th February 2008 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Messed up quote.
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 09:14 AM   #124
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,130
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Are you a contemporary of Loren Coleman?
Quote:
are you on personal terms with Mr. Coleman
You are so clueless that the proper term never enters your mind. Try nemesis.

The better question about Baxbaxwalanuksiwe is this: Why is it not on the list from Mizokami, Franzoni, and Glickman? Did they not run across it? Did they decide to leave it off the list?

Take a peek.

Quote:
Central to the Hamatsa ceremonies is the story of some brothers who got lost on a hunting trip and found a strange house with red smoke emanating from its roof. When they visited the house they found its owner gone, but one of the house posts was a living woman with her legs rooted into the floor, and she warned them about the frightful owner of the house, who was named Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions. In short the men are able to destroy the man-eating giant and gain mystical power and supernatural treasures from him.
More.

Is this your Bigfoot, MOTS?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 09:52 AM   #125
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 18,130
KKZ, Baxbax was a real Bigfoot, and the Kwakwaka'wakw saw him just like all the other Indians. The problem is that they screwed up their sighting reports by adding bizarre elements just like everyone else.

The red-smoking house with the talking support post is just fluff. The man-eating birds were not his companions. These were just ordinary man-eating Thunderbirds that were actually terrified of his jet plane roars. They weren't hunting men with him, they were fleeing him.

The story of Baxbax is good evidence for the existence of Bigfoots and Thunderbirds.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 02:21 PM   #126
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Read your last sentence.
I have looked further into dsonoqua. Just today, for example. I have certainly found nothing about her that makes me think she is a correlary of the Kwakwaka'wakw for a race of 8ft giant bipedal primates living in their vicinity. She is said to be slow, dim-witted, and to have rather poor eyesight. She is said to steal children but to also sometimes bestow wealth. Not a whole lot of bigfoot going on there.

Quote:
Do it or close the thread.
Let's be a little more civil, shall we? I don't presume to order you around. Looking into these things takes time. I don't post for a day or so and you call it evasion. You need to adjust the attitude a little, I think.

The next thing I was thinking to look into was the claimed representation of bigfoot in totem poles.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 10th February 2008 at 02:22 PM.
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 04:37 PM   #127
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,442
Originally Posted by kitakaze
Let's do a check for things that bigfoot and Mr. Baxbax (I will presume to call him that) share in common. OK, first there's the giant size and then there's the... Oh wait. That's all there is.

Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
You mean, that's all there is for your further research.
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post

No Jstor membership, huh?

Jstor, Shmaystor. Let's see what a non-member can dig up.

Hamatsa (wiki)
the frightful owner of the house, who was named Baxbaxwalanuksiwe, a man-eating giant with four terrible man-eating birds for his companions.
Kwakiutl_mythology (wiki)
The Hamatsa dancer represents the spirit of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe ("Man-Eater at the North End of the World"; who can transform into various man-eating birds and was said to have mouths all over his body.

But, WIki should always be taken with a grain of salt, nonetheless, it's a good place to start. Going on, then.

[font=Arial]http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hamatsa.html]Hamatsa dancers
The Hamatsa dancers represent a cannibal spirit who lives in the sky (Bakbakwalanooksiwae)... Bakbakwalanooksiwae is invisible and the Hamatsa dancers are thought to each represent one of his many mouths. His presence is made known though a strange whistling sound which is supposed to be the wind blowing through his millions of mouths.
Secret Societies And Their Tutelaries ( Originally Published Early 1900's )
Cannibals are common characters in the myths of the North-West, as elsewhere; but the Cannibal of the society is a particular personage who is supposed to dwell in the mountains with his servants, ...
The cult of the Cannibal probably originated among the Heiltsuk Kwakiutl, ...
The cannibal initiate among the Kwakiutl is called "hamatsa"
Baxbakualanuchsiwae is the Kwakiutl name for the Cannibal Spirit, ...
but the Cannibal himself is regarded as living at the north end of the world (as is the case with the Titanic beings of many Pacific-Coast myths), and it is quite possible that he is originally a war-god typified by the Aurora Borealis...

[font=Arial]http://www.mask-and-more-masks.com/American-Masks.html]American Masks and the Kwakiutl
The dances were often connected with the initiation of novices. Possessed by wild spirits the novices would disappear into the woods to be given the ancestral rites and then reappear as fully fledged members of the society. The spirit which possessed them was Bakbakwalanooksiwae (Cannibal at the north end of the World ) who inspired them to eat human flesh.
Lastly from a text (available on PDF at www.canadiana.org) by Franz Boas, one that all the above is based on:
[font=Arial]http://www.canadiana.org]From the pages of “The social organization and the secret societies of the Kwakiutl Indians” Boas
...As soon as he went out his face was covered and he was led away by a man...Then the man spoke;”My dear, do not be afraid. I want to give you magical power. This is my house. I am BaxbakualanuXsi'wae. You shall see everything in my house.”

So, to summarise.


He is a man. Who lives in a house. Who also speaks the language of men. (Boa)
The Pantheon article backs up the thought of him being a man by refering to him as being a particular personage.
He is invisible.
Has millions of mouths.
Can transform into birds.

Notably, I can not find in Franz Boas' accounts anything that describes him as a giant. There are references in other texts that say the Hamatsa dancers become giant sized, but not Baxbaxwalanuksiwe himself.

MOTS, I can't see anything in the above that would seem to point to Baxbaxwalanuksiwe being a bigfoot.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 04:46 PM   #128
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by EHocking;3421700
[FONT=Arial
So, to summarise.[/font]


He is a man. Who lives in a house. Who also speaks the language of men. (Boa)
The Pantheon article backs up the thought of him being a man by refering to him as being a particular personage.
He is invisible.
Has millions of mouths.
Can transform into birds.

Notably, I can not find in Franz Boas' accounts anything that describes him as a giant. There are references in other texts that say the Hamatsa dancers become giant sized, but not Baxbaxwalanuksiwe himself.

MOTS, I can't see anything in the above that would seem to point to Baxbaxwalanuksiwe being a bigfoot. [/left]
I'd like to know the Kwakiutl word for "millions", if you don't mind.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2008, 09:41 PM   #129
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Simple Chart To Establish Probability

Pondering the correlations present between bigfoot and boqs of the Kwakiutl, I decided to produce a simple comparison.

Bigfoot: Physical description: large, bipedal, apeman
Location: (historically) PNW
Mystery: no accepted evidence, sightings, myths

Boqs: Physical description: giant, humanoid (as denoted by 'cannibalism')
Location: PNW
Mystery: associated with Secret society (man-eater)

As far as the million mouths, I seriously doubt the Kwakiutl had a word for million. And that puts the other added characterists in doubt.

Is there a better candidate?
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2008, 06:14 AM   #130
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,442
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I'd like to know the Kwakiutl word for "millions", if you don't mind.
I have no idea. Don't speak the language. Since you wish to nitpick - we'll go with the other description of his mouths.

"Mouths all over his body".

Seems sufficient.

Do you know of any descriptions of bigfoot where the animal has more than one mouth?

That WAS the only point being made of course.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2008, 06:59 AM   #131
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,442
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Pondering the correlations present between bigfoot and boqs of the Kwakiutl, I decided to produce a simple comparison.
Simpler, by which you mean, "Ignoring all the physical descriptions that are awkward to my position".

Let's reiterate them,
Quote:
He is a man. Who lives in a house. Who also speaks the language of men. (Boa)
The Pantheon article backs up the thought of him being a man by refering to him as being a particular personage.
He is invisible.
Has millions of mouths.
Can transform into birds.

[none of] Franz Boas' accounts ...describes him as a giant.
One I missed previously He uses native transport - a canoe.
Another oneUses fire to cook food.
Quote:
Bigfoot: Physical description: large, bipedal, apeman
Location: (historically) PNW
Mystery: no accepted evidence, sightings, myths

Boqs: Physical description: giant,
I disagree. First hand accounts by Franz Boas does not mention a giant.
Quote:
humanoid (as denoted by 'cannibalism')
No. First hand accounts by Franz Boas says man, not man-like or humanoid, but specifically, a man.
Quote:
Location: PNW
Mystery: associated with Secret society (man-eater)
No mystery. The entity IS associated with a secret dance society that has been witnessed and described first hand by an anthropologist Franz Boas (and others).
Quote:
As far as the million mouths, I seriously doubt the Kwakiutl had a word for million. And that puts the other added characterists in doubt.
From Boas' first hand accounts of their customs, they most certainly had a word for thousand (ie coppers were used as "IOU"s in exchanges of large numbers of items. He quotes numbers in the multiple thousand.)

It is more probably that someone described the Canibal spirit to Boas with having "a thousand, thousand mouths", than your unattributed doubt is accurate.
Quote:
Is there a better candidate?
I'm not putting forward candidates, merely assessing the one you put forward.

In Summary:

Baxbaxwalanuksiwe:
Kwakatiutl call him a man, not a giant (first hand account (Boas))
can transform into birds
many mouths
lives in a house
uses a canoe
has a wife
has servants
speaks (a language that Kwakatiutl understand)
uses fire to cook food
a man-eater, described as cannibal, therefore, a man.
possibly invisible (Boas doesn't mention it in first hand accounts)


Man:
man sized
can not transform into birds
one mouth
lives in a house
uses a canoe
has a wife
has servants
speaks
uses fire to cook food
if a man-eater is a cannibal
visible

BF:
larger than a man
can not transform into birds
one mouth
doesn't build dwellings
doesn't build transport
no evidence of wedding ceremonies, therefore a mate, not a wife
no evidence of servants (human or otherwise)
does no use fire to cook food
does not speak, utters animal grunts.
I am not aware of any man-eating habits. If so, ever described as cannibalism?
visible (by your own account)

So what's the total of similar characteristics to BF?

Man: 9
BF : 1 (visibility).

I for one find the evidence to support your belief that this Cannibal Spirit is a Kwakatuitl description of bigfoot lacking severly when compared to the non-BF alternative.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage

Last edited by EHocking; 11th February 2008 at 07:12 AM. Reason: quotes and use of fire addition.
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2008, 08:57 AM   #132
Correa Neto
Philosopher
 
Correa Neto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,578
EHocking, some proponents will say there's evidence or speculate that bigfeet can speak, build nests and eat their dead, resulting in a better score for them...
__________________
Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…
Correa Neto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2008, 02:10 PM   #133
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,442
Originally Posted by Correa Neto View Post
EHocking, some proponents will say there's evidence or speculate that bigfeet can speak, build nests and eat their dead, resulting in a better score for them...
... and that's just what it is - speculation. There's also a camp that speculates that BF is an invisible, multi-dimensional, shape-shifter too (see how open-minded I'm being about this?)

I presented first hand witness of the Wakakuitl legend itself.
With references. Facts, not speculation.

And with any falsifiable theory, it only requires one fact to falsify it.

Are there any descriptions of BF with more than one mouth?
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th February 2008, 07:19 PM   #134
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Do You Mean What You Say?

[quote=EHocking;3424711
Facts, not speculation.

And with any falsifiable theory, it only requires one fact to falsify it.

[/QUOTE]

Here's an excerpt from a letter from 1840, from the Reverend Elkanah Walker to Secretary Greene (Indian Affairs?). From the book "Indians of the Pacific Northwest" U. of Oklahoma Press.

"The Indians attributed their attrition to one particular superstition, as Walker reported to Secretary Greene on April 16, 1840. The Indians, he wrote, believed in a race of giants, "men stealers", who inhabited the top of a perpetually snow covered mountain on the west, from whose lofty heights they descended nightly to steal salmon and eat the fish raw. Approaching nearby villages and smelling strongly the monsters gave three whistles, hurled stones on houses, and snatched people away, leaving a "track...about a foot & a half long."

Note, Reverend Elkanah Walker lived with the Spokane Indians from 1838-1848.

And there's more. The same chapter (this book is in the Reference Section) also mentions nearby tribes, and corresponding creatures for each of the major Cascades Mountains.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2008, 06:30 AM   #135
Cuddles
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,522
Mod WarningI have split a large amount of this thread to AAH. Keep it on topic and stop the bickering or this thread will join most of the other bigfoot threads in being set to moderated status.
Posted By:Cuddles
Cuddles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2008, 07:08 AM   #136
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,442
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
...Note, Reverend Elkanah Walker lived with the Spokane Indians from 1838-1848.

And there's more. The same chapter (this book is in the Reference Section) also mentions nearby tribes, and corresponding creatures for each of the major Cascades Mountains.
We were discussing the Kwakatiutl legend of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe. What relevance does this Spokane legend have to do with a. my previous post or b. the discussion at hand?

Also, can you give a link to the document itself and not just references to BF websites?
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage

Last edited by EHocking; 12th February 2008 at 07:11 AM. Reason: snipe removed
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2008, 07:20 AM   #137
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,442
Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Mod WarningI have split a large amount of this thread to AAH. Keep it on topic and stop the bickering or this thread will join most of the other bigfoot threads in being set to moderated status.
Posted By:Cuddles
er, um.... AAH? What be that, a separate thread? Am I being dense?
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2008, 07:48 AM   #138
Orthoptera
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 117
That would be the Abandon All Hope topic, down in the Members Only section.
Orthoptera is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2008, 01:15 PM   #139
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,442
Originally Posted by Orthoptera View Post
That would be the Abandon All Hope topic, down in the Members Only section.
Aah, thanks.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
Prayer: "a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms." T.Pratchett
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
Forum Birdwatching Webpage
EHocking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 10:35 PM   #140
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
We were discussing the Kwakatiutl legend of Baxbaxwalanuksiwe. What relevance does this Spokane legend have to do with a. my previous post or b. the discussion at hand?

Also, can you give a link to the document itself and not just references to BF websites?
How about because the Spokane Indians, partly Salishan, are on the east side of the Cascades.

Multitudes of mouths presumably denotes that there are/were many of them.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 10:38 PM   #141
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
I hope Kidakaze didn't get locked in the library. He stated that he would be studying totems and then he'd get back here. That's assuming that books, real books (particularly those in the Reference Section) are still held in high esteem. Most of the good information is still not readily available on the internet.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2008, 10:41 PM   #142
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Also, can you give a link to the document itself and not just references to BF websites?
There's no link. It's in a real book. At a real library. A whole new (antiquated) way of researching material. Besides, this information explicitly states not for reproduction...
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 03:53 AM   #143
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Multitudes of mouths presumably denotes that there are/were many of them.
No, it doesn't. This would be an example of the interpreting of elements of myth to fit one's notions of bigfoot.

When it was said Mr. Baxbax 'can transform into various man-eating birds and was said to have mouths all over his body' there is absolutely no need to presume anything, whether it was an expression of bigfoot's population or capability of flight.

It is also important to keep in mind that Mr. Baxbax is not a commonly asserted correlary for bigfoot. MOTS is in fact the only one asserting the idea which doesn't make me want to spend much further time on it. It's clearly not bigfoot and you don't have oodles and oodles of footers making vague half references to Mr. Baxbax as you do with 'The Wild Woman of the Woods' etc.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 04:10 AM   #144
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
There's no link. It's in a real book. At a real library. A whole new (antiquated) way of researching material. Besides, this information explicitly states not for reproduction...
Here's Bigfoot Encounters entry on it:

Quote:
THE DIARY OF ELKANAH WALKER

If we are to believe the Diary of Elkanah Walker, pioneer American missionary in Washington State to the Spokane Indians, he wrote:
"Bear with me if I trouble you with a little of their superstitions. They believe in a race of giants, which inhabit a certain mountain off to the west of us. This mountain is covered with perpetual snow. They (the creatures) inhabit the snow peaks. They hunt and do all their work at night. They are men stealers.
They come to the people's lodges at night when the people are asleep and take them and put them under their skins and to their place of abode without even waking. Their track is a foot and a half long. They steal salmon from Indian nets and eat then raw as the bears do. If the people are awake, they always know when they are coming very near by their strong smell that is most intolerable. It is not uncommon for them to come in the night and give three whistles and then the stones will begin to hit their houses." (Drury 1976, pp. 122-123)

Reverend Walker's established mission was approximately located twenty-five miles northwest of present day Spokane, WA. His diary entry of the snow peak to the west could be one of several peaks in the Cascade Range such as Mt. Baker, Mt. Rainier, Mt Adams or Mount St. Helens or possibly he could have meant Mt. Hood on the Oregon side of the Columbia River. But Sasquatch researchers, myself among them, generally believe the missionary was referring to Mt. St. Helens which has always carried legends of Sasquatches, ape-like men and of course the 1924 story of Fred Beck in Ape Canyon.
Missionary Walker also penned pre-civil war references to this beautiful Mt. St. Helens as a place where the white man and the Indians never frequented "and who assert it is inhabited by a race of beings of a different species, who are cannibals and whom they hold in great dread."

In his private writings, he declared the Indians called these different beings "Seatcoes or Selahticks." Words, which he thought at the time of his writings possibly referred to renegade or outcast Indians banished from tribal villages and not the elusive timber giant. Of this referential point we can't be sure, but his diaries were the first to make mention of it.
Unlike Mr. Baxbax, the Walker diary is worthy of further examination as it is commonly referenced by footers as seen in it's entry at Bigfoot Encounters.

Before I even spend further time on it the first thing that jumps to mind when you have an account of men stealer cannibals is that slavery is well known to have been practiced among various indigenous cultures of the Americas. Having an account that horrifies the perpetrators is nothing shocking.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 04:43 AM   #145
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
My guess is that Spektator or someone with better access will be more helpful but I'll start with some preliminary links regarding Elkanah Walker:

The Walker Library:

http://www.wsulibs.wsu.edu/holland/m...scription.html

Elkanah and Mary Richardson Walker Papers, 1830-1938:

http://www.wsulibs.wsu.edu/holland/m...nders/cg57.htm

Guide to the Clifford M. Drury Papers 1932-1983:

http://nwda-db.wsulibs.wsu.edu/finda.../80444/xv58842

Just a thought. If we really have 8ft giant bipedal primates kicking around all over the continent, you'd think one wouldn't have to dig through such vague, obscure possible references to support the idea.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 06:51 AM   #146
Creekfreak
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 796
You dont have to dig Kit all you have to do is take my word for it they are real .
Creekfreak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 08:49 AM   #147
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by Creekfreak View Post
You dont have to dig Kit all you have to do is take my word for it they are real .
Prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster:

"Dear FSM, thank you for giving me the power not to take freak's word for it. Whenever I feel tempted to take freak's word for it about the bigfoots with screwdrivers and the beans and what not... well, I'll just sprinkle a little of that sacred parmesan on myself and squeeze tight the holy meatballs in my pockets and kiss the sky. Zesty praise be to you, my Flying Spaghetti Monster. Ramen!"
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 07:19 PM   #148
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post

The next thing I was thinking to look into was the claimed representation of bigfoot in totem poles.
It'd be pretty interesting to get your (boas's) take on totems.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 07:56 PM   #149
Tricky
Briefly immortal
 
Tricky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The Group W Bench
Posts: 44,252
Obviously, Paul Bunyon was a Bigfoot. His appearance in literature confirms the fact that giant humanoids have walked the earth, especially in the Northwest.
Tricky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 09:28 PM   #150
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
It'd be pretty interesting to get your (boas's) take on totems.
Don't worry, MOTS. I haven't forgotten, just been kept away from the computer by work more than usual lately.

I'm particularily interested in the totems displayed in my hometown of Victoria, BC at The Royal British Cloumbia Museum (PGF fans should recognize that place) in Thunderbird Park and particularily the work of Kwakwaka'wakw Chief Mungo Martin. He was a noted expert in the Northwest Coast style of artwork, a singer, and a songwriter and I'm curious if he had thoughts, if any, about bigfoot. I'll look into it as soon as I can.

In the meantime, some questions:

1) Do you think there are any clear representations of bigfoot in totem poles?

2) We are told by Kathy Strain and others that there were literally hundreds of names for bigfoot by tribes all over the continent. Why do we not see any native bigfoot artifacts? We have native bear artifacts, why not bigfoot?

ETA: You'd do well to read up on Franz Boas for the purpose of this thread. A very interesting and important figure, often called the "Father of American Anthropology."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas

How'd he miss all the frickin' bigfoots?
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6

Last edited by kitakaze; 19th February 2008 at 09:36 PM.
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 09:34 PM   #151
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Don't worry, MOTS. I haven't forgotten, just been kept away from the computer by work more than usual lately.

I'm particularily interested in the totems displayed in my hometown of Victoria, BC at The Royal British Cloumbia Museum (PGF fans should recognize that place) in Thunderbird Park and particularily the work of Kwakwaka'wakw Chief Mungo Martin. He was a noted expert in the Northwest Coast style of artwork, a singer, and a songwriter and I'm curious if he had thoughts, if any, about bigfoot. I'll look into it as soon as I can.

In the meantime, some questions:

1) Do you think there are any clear representations of bigfoot in totem poles?

2) We are told by Kathy Strain and others that there were literally hundreds of names for bigfoot by tribes all over the continent. Why do we not see any native bigfoot artifacts? We have native bear artifacts, why not bigfoot?
1) Did I ever state this?

2) PM Kathy Strain, she is a member here.

3) Either finish your work, or check into totems, don't try baiting me.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 09:44 PM   #152
kitakaze
Resident DJ/NSA Supermole
 
kitakaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sapporo ichiban!
Posts: 9,240
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
1) Did I ever state this?
Uh, no... If you had then I wouldn't need to ask, would I? You stated an interest in the subject so I asked if you think there are clear representations of bigfoot in totem poles. It's not a difficult question.

Quote:
2) PM Kathy Strain, she is a member here.
I'm quite sure she's aware of this thread and would have participated by now if she was so inclined. It would seem she may not be.

Quote:
3) Either finish your work, or check into totems, don't try baiting me.
Simple questions, MOTS. If you don't want to discuss the issue then don't pursue it. And take a walk or something, your attitude sucks.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
kitakaze is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 10:00 PM   #153
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
How about we just skip the totems?

When I first suggested boqs, that was because the only reference in my personal library pointed to this being. "Giant, cannibal"

But then I decided to go to the State Library and there I found references to Hekanah Walker and his time spent with the Spokane Indians. Before we running off an adhom tangent, the Spokane Indians are on the east side of the Cascades. Same mountains. More definitive descriptions.

I've discounted the Kwakiutl legends myself now. So...don't waste your time.
Unless someone else wants to put forward the Kwakiutl as a reference.

Remember, I had a friend who grew up on the Colville and he stated to me that bigfoot is real. So I'll now stick with the Salishan (Spokane) myths.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 10:11 PM   #154
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Let's try this. I have an outstanding collection of literature. One of the books is The Last Mohiccan by James Fenimore Cooper. I quoted him in my signature at BFF. Check it out.

This was after I noticed that one of your lists pointed out that manitou was an Indian name for bigfoot. And take special note of the setting in which this quote is found.

Note, I have the unabridged versions of these novels, so if you need further help, you just let me know.

Last edited by manofthesea; 19th February 2008 at 10:12 PM.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2008, 10:16 PM   #155
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by kitakaze;3452605
ETA: You'd do well to read up on Franz Boas for the purpose of this thread. A very interesting and important figure, often called the "Father of American Anthropology."

[url
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas[/url]

How'd he miss all the frickin' bigfoots?
You'd also do well to notice that he wasn't offered tenure, so he moved back east and started his 'anthropology', well away from his sources.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2008, 10:15 PM   #156
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Bump

Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Let's try this. I have an outstanding collection of literature. One of the books is The Last Mohiccan by James Fenimore Cooper. I quoted him in my signature at BFF. Check it out.

This was after I noticed that one of your lists pointed out that manitou was an Indian name for bigfoot. And take special note of the setting in which this quote is found.

Note, I have the unabridged versions of these novels, so if you need further help, you just let me know.
Can I at least get a "blah blah, har har"?
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2008, 09:07 AM   #157
RayG
Master Poster
 
RayG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Somewhere in Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,660
Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
This was after I noticed that one of your lists pointed out that manitou was an Indian name for bigfoot.
It was? You mean like Kushtaka was an Indian name for bigfoot?

RayG
__________________
Tell ya what. I'll hold my tongue as long as you stick to facts.
--------------------
Scrutatio Et Quaestio
RayG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2008, 12:46 PM   #158
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by RayG View Post
It was? You mean like Kushtaka was an Indian name for bigfoot?

RayG
If you can't focus on the subject at hand, stick to the PGF. But it does qualify as blah blah, har har.

You've been into bigfoot "for a little more than three decades", you must be aware of James Fenimore Cooper's little 'poem' about manitou. What do you think of it?

I just started this past summer. I'll try and make it easy for you. What do you think about Hekanah Walker?

Last edited by manofthesea; 23rd February 2008 at 12:59 PM.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2008, 01:02 PM   #159
Wauthan
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 167
I apologize for intruding in the debate but after reading this thread I got really curious. I greatly enjoy reading about the old local folklore here in Sweden and felt that atleast some mythical beings overlapped with those presented by Kitakaze. There are a lot of stories about encounters with trolls, ogres, giants and hairy "wild men" living in the forests.

Are these tales hints of bigfoots in Skandinavia? Or does the folklore of the native american tribes have certain qualities that set them apart from the ones in Europe? Sorry again for intruding, but I felt over my head and thought it best to ask experts in this matter.
Wauthan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2008, 01:14 PM   #160
manofthesea
2wu4u
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,659
Originally Posted by Wauthan View Post
I apologize for intruding in the debate but after reading this thread I got really curious. I greatly enjoy reading about the old local folklore here in Sweden and felt that atleast some mythical beings overlapped with those presented by Kitakaze. There are a lot of stories about encounters with trolls, ogres, giants and hairy "wild men" living in the forests.

Are these tales hints of bigfoots in Skandinavia? Or does the folklore of the native american tribes have certain qualities that set them apart from the ones in Europe? Sorry again for intruding, but I felt over my head and thought it best to ask experts in this matter.
Are there any bigfoot sightings in Skandinavia? Or at least a crappy 40 year old film?

I played hockey as a youth and we played the Swedish National Team. They were pretty good. Finland was better, and bigger. But I liked the way they chewed tobacco with it in their upper lip, dude.

Last edited by manofthesea; 23rd February 2008 at 01:17 PM.
manofthesea is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:12 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.