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Tags bigfoot , native american myths

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Old 23rd February 2008, 01:35 PM   #161
Wauthan
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Are there any bigfoot sightings in Skandinavia? Or at least a crappy 40 year old film?
I honestly don't know. To my knowledge there has been no report of nonhuman bipedal creatures encountered in any part of Sweden. But a quick googling certainly confused that view. Problem is that aside from a general description that a bigfoot is larger then a man, hairy and mostly found in forests there seems to be little agreement. I know next to nothing of bigfoot lore and because of this I have great difficulty judging the quality of the claims.
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Old 23rd February 2008, 01:36 PM   #162
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Concerning Scandinavia

There's a euro science guy at BigfootForums who's studying this phenomenon. From Austria or something. He's studying the relation between bigfoot and wildman, and seems to think it could possibly be a relic neanderthal population. And they travel via ice flows, ie. glaciers and stuff. If you're really interested check it out.

I have an aunt who's originally from the north of Norway, right under some big mountain and fjord, and she stated before that they do have wildmen up in that area. It's still in the family property also. And she served as a great interpretator when the Swedes stayed at my house.

Last edited by manofthesea; 23rd February 2008 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 23rd February 2008, 03:13 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
If you can't focus on the subject at hand, stick to the PGF. But it does qualify as blah blah, har har.
Not sure I catch your drift. I thought this thread was for discussing Native American myths/traditions and whether or not they support bigfoot? You've made what appears to be a claim that manitou = bigfoot, and I questioned your claim. Do you have a source that supports your claim or not?

Quote:
You've been into bigfoot "for a little more than three decades", you must be aware of James Fenimore Cooper's little 'poem' about manitou. What do you think of it?
I'm guessing you mean The Lake Gun, a short story by Cooper that mentions Manitou, but makes no parallel between manitou and bigfoot. Since he equates Manitou to "The Great Spirit", or "God", and not bigfoot I don't see where his story has any relevance.

Quote:
I just started this past summer. I'll try and make it easy for you. What do you think about Hekanah Walker?
That name rings no bells for me. You'd make it easier if you explain who Hekanah Walker is, and what ties Walker to bigfoot as a Native American myth/tradition.

RayG
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Old 23rd February 2008, 06:12 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Not sure I catch your drift.
Do you have a source that supports your claim or not?

I'm guessing you mean The Lake Gun, a short story by Cooper that mentions Manitou, but makes no parallel between manitou and bigfoot. Since he equates Manitou to "The Great Spirit", or "God", and not bigfoot I don't see where his story has any relevance.

That name rings no bells for me. You'd make it easier if you explain who Hekanah Walker is, and what ties Walker to bigfoot as a Native American myth/tradition.

RayG
What claim are you talking about?

You guessed wrong.

No idea of Hekanah Walker, I'm not surprised.
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Old 23rd February 2008, 06:44 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
What claim are you talking about?
Maybe claim was a little too strong. Do you believe that manitou was an Indian name for bigfoot? If yes, do you have a source that supports that belief?

Quote:
You guessed wrong.
I often do. Since you brought it up, are we to assume that his poem has some relevance to Native American myths/traditions?

Quote:
No idea of Hekanah Walker, I'm not surprised.
Nope have never heard of Hekanah Walker. Would he be a relative of Elkanah Walker?

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Old 24th February 2008, 03:52 AM   #166
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Regarding the list I cited as compiled by Henry Franzoni, Jeff Glickman, and Kyle Mizokami:

One of the authors (I will not say which due to a request for anonymity) has contacted me and informed me that the list "Native American Names for Bigfoot" it is not now nor ever was representational of his views. Furthermore, the document is apparently not an original and was compiled from numerous sources by an unknown party
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 24th February 2008, 05:11 AM   #167
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Nope have never heard of Hekanah Walker. Would he be a relative of Elkanah Walker?

RayG
That's the guy. Don't let my dyslexia interfere with our conversation.
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Old 24th February 2008, 05:14 AM   #168
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Sure, Whatever

Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Regarding the list I cited as compiled by Henry Franzoni, Jeff Glickman, and Kyle Mizokami:

One of the authors (I will not say which due to a request for anonymity) has contacted me and informed me that the list "Native American Names for Bigfoot" it is not now nor ever was representational of his views. Furthermore, the document is apparently not an original and was compiled from numerous sources by an unknown party
Why don't you submit a "kitakaze's revised list of native american names for bigfoot" and we'll go from there.

I never heard of any of those guys anyway. Remember, I've never read ANY bigfoot books.

Last edited by manofthesea; 24th February 2008 at 05:17 AM.
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Old 24th February 2008, 05:21 AM   #169
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What The Heck Is An Ainu?

kitakaze, you like to compare Kennewick Man to ainu. Do you mind providing a link and source for this comparison. Particularly pictures of their skulls. Where are they now? What is their historical range? Are they homo sapien sapien? Some basics like that. Appreciate it.
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Old 24th February 2008, 05:39 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
kitakaze, you like to compare Kennewick Man to ainu. Do you mind providing a link and source for this comparison. Particularly pictures of their skulls. Where are they now? What is their historical range? Are they homo sapien sapien? Some basics like that. Appreciate it.
You. Google. Ainu. Learn. Happy. Yay.

This thread. Native American myths/traditions and bigfoot. Yes?
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 24th February 2008, 06:07 AM   #171
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Hai!

Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
You. Google. Ainu. Learn. Happy. Yay.

This thread. Native American myths/traditions and bigfoot. Yes?
I'll check it out at the library one day.

Just got home from the Pan Pacific Championships. Gamba Osaka just pounded Houston Dynamo like a wooden bucket of mochi. 6-1. Put up a couple of pics at BFF member's lounge, EPL thread.
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Old 24th February 2008, 10:36 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
That's the guy. Don't let my dyslexia interfere with our conversation.
That's why you don't answer questions?

I'll try and make it easy for you. Would point form be better?
  • Do you believe that manitou was an Indian name for bigfoot?
  • If yes, do you have a source that supports that belief?
  • Does Cooper's poem have some correlation between Native American myths/traditions and bigfoot?
  • Do you believe that Kushtaka was an Indian name for bigfoot?
Simple questions. Did you want to discuss Native American myths/traditions and whether they support bigfoot or not?

As to your question, What do you think about Hekanah [Elkanah] Walker?

Not much, but at least he's perceptive. He calls them superstitions not fact. You should know there are no shortage of myths, legends, and superstitions among Native American cultures and other cultures around the world. Some of these 'stories' are about giants. Greek & Roman mythology for example:

Quote:
The Giants were huge, violent creatures with long hair and beards. There were 24 of them birthed to Gaea on Thracian Phlegra. The Giants later attacked the Olympian gods after Gaea was upset at the punishment to the Titans. The Giants were defeated and also imprisoned under the earth. It is said that wherever a volcanoe errupts is where a giant is hidden.
.
Here's a list of names of giants and the cultures that have assigned the name:

Quote:
* Daitya (Sanskrit)
* Gigantes (Greek)
* Titans (Greek)
* Cyclopes/Cyclops (Greek)
* Upelleru (Middle Eastern)
* Azrail (Armenian)
* Anakim (Hebrew)
* Enim (Hebrew)
* Rephaim (Hebrew)
* Zamzummim (Hebrew)
* Nephilim (Hebrew)
* Gog (Hebrew/British)
* Magog (Hebrew/British)
* Jake (Bruns)
* Goliath of Gath (Hebrew)
* Og of Bashan (Hebrew)
* Fomorians (Celtic)
* Wrnach (Welsh)
* Bendigeidfran (Welsh)
* Jotuns (Norse/Teutonic)
* Frost Giants (Norse/Teutonic)
* Fire Giants (Norse/Teutonic)
* Earth Giants (Norse/Teutonic)
* Ice Giants (Finnish)
* Yak (Thai)
* Puntan (Micronesia)
* Albadan (Spanish)
* Famangomadan (Spanish)
* Dehotgohsgayeh (Iroquois)
* Gedegwsets (Coos)
* Inugpasugssuk (Netslik)
* Kiwahkw (Maliseet)
* Yeitso (Navajo)
* Nunhyunuwi (Cherokee)
* Si-Te-Cah (Paiute)
* Dzoo-Noo-Qua (Kwakiutl)
* Nahgane (Slavey)
* Chahnameed (Pequot)
* Paul Bunyan (American)
* Hewiixi/hewietari (Huichol)
* Cawr (Welsh)
* Kaour (Breton)
* Dasa Maha Yodayo (Sri Lanka)
* Gotaimbara (Sri Lanka)
* Mahasena (Sri Lanka)
.
Notice the inclusion of the Iroquois, Navajo, Cherokee, Paiute, and Kwakiutl terms for giant.

Originally Posted by http://www.geocities.com/dragar.geo/WSP/monsters.html
giant
Culture of Origin: wide spread Description: Giants are a race of huge beings with super human size and strength. In Norse mythology giants were a primeval race, existing before the gods and overcome by them, similar to the Greek Titans. In most European tales giants appear as cruel and stupid, given to cannibalism, often one-eyed, and scarcely distinguishable from monsters. Although kindly giants occur, most were feared and hated. Greek Mythology refers to giants as Titans or Cyclops. c.f.: Cyclops, Titan
.
Surely you've heard of Cyclops, a race of giants who had only one eye, in the middle of the forehead? What about Ogres? Jeebus, they're man-eating giants.

Originally Posted by http://www.geocities.com/dragar.geo/WSP/monsters.html
ogre Culture of Origin: European Folklore Description: Ogres are a man-eating monster or giant.
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre
An ogre (feminine: ogress) is a large, mean and hideous humanoid monster. Ogres are often depicted in fairy tales and folklore as feeding on human beings, and have appeared in many classic works of literature. In art, ogres are often depicted with a large head, abundant hair and beard, a huge belly, and a strong body. The term is often applied in a metaphorical sense to disgusting persons who exploit, brutalize or devour their victims.
.
Could the superstitious creatures Walker writes about be mere ogres and not bigfoot? Maybe they were trolls and not ogres at all.

Quote:

troll Culture of Origin: Scandinavian Folklore Description: A race of supernatural beings, sometimes referred to as giants or dwarfs, living underground or in caves. Other references indicate, trolls are giant, monstrous beings, sometimes possessing magic powers. Trolls are hostile to men. They live in castles and haunt the surrounding area after dark. If exposed to sunlight they burst or turn to stone. In later tales trolls often are man sized or smaller beings similar to dwarfs and elves. They lived in mountains, sometimes stole human maidens, and could transform themselves and prophesy.
.
Giants, living in mountains, and stealing human maidens? Isn't that similar to Walker's description?

-- Bear with me if I trouble you with a little of their superstitions. They believe in a race of giants, which inhabit a certain mountain off to the west of us. This mountain is covered with perpetual snow. They (the creatures) inhabit the snow peaks. They hunt and do all their work at night. They are men stealers. --

Dang! Now the bigfoot romantics will equate trolls to squatches.

Originally Posted by manofthesea
I never heard of any of those guys anyway. Remember, I've never read ANY bigfoot books.
.
No idea who Henry Franzoni, Jeff Glickman, or Kyle Mizokami are? I'm not surprised. But then you just started this past summer, so you've a lot of catching up to do. Here's an incomplete list of names you should be familiar with:

Green, Krantz, Dahinden, Byrne, Meldrum, Bindernagel, Fahrenbach, Sanderson, Bourne, Porshnev, Grieve, Bayonov, Patterson, Perez, Short, Williams, Coleman, Pyle, Gimlin, Freeman, Titmus, Huyghe, Bourtsev, Greenwell, Noll, Napier, Sarmiento, Fish, Coon, Berry, Sprague, Slick, Gordon, Moneymaker, Heuvelmans, Steenburg, Gates, Donskoy, Wylie, Haas, Slate, Crowe, Guttilla, Hibner, Franzoni, Laverty, Burns, Orchard, Keating, Wasson, Taft, Swindler, Glickman, Kirlin, Gill, Markotic, Murphy, Caddy, McClarin, Tchernine, Alley, Jackson, Shackley, Davis, Woolheater, Perry, Mizokami, Halpin, Ciochon, Baird, and Bord.

Contributions to bigfootdom by the above named can be found at your library or online.

RayG
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Old 24th February 2008, 11:22 AM   #173
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MOTS earlier said that 'giant' and 'cannibal' was what indicated sasquatch. I'm interested how he came to the decision that 'cannibal' indicated sasquatch. Are sasquatches known to prey on humans?

Also it has been said by different people that there are legends of bigfoot showing them as gods but also showing them as everyday animals.

I would like to see even one native tradition referencing bigfoot at all and also as an everyday animal. I have yet to find anything.
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 24th February 2008, 11:53 AM   #174
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
That's why you don't answer questions?

I'll try and make it easy for you. Would point form be better?
  • Do you believe that manitou was an Indian name for bigfoot?
  • If yes, do you have a source that supports that belief?
  • Does Cooper's poem have some correlation between Native American myths/traditions and bigfoot?
  • Do you believe that Kushtaka was an Indian name for bigfoot?
Simple questions. Did you want to discuss Native American myths/traditions and whether they support bigfoot or not?


.
Giants, living in mountains, and stealing human maidens? Isn't that similar to Walker's description?

-- Bear with me if I trouble you with a little of their superstitions. They believe in a race of giants, which inhabit a certain mountain off to the west of us. This mountain is covered with perpetual snow. They (the creatures) inhabit the snow peaks. They hunt and do all their work at night. They are men stealers. --

Dang! Now the bigfoot romantics will equate trolls to squatches.


.
No idea who Henry Franzoni, Jeff Glickman, or Kyle Mizokami are? I'm not surprised. But then you just started this past summer, so you've a lot of catching up to do. Here's an incomplete list of names you should be familiar with:

Green, Krantz, Dahinden, Byrne, Meldrum, Bindernagel, Fahrenbach, Sanderson, Bourne, Porshnev, Grieve, Bayonov, Patterson, Perez, Short, Williams, Coleman, Pyle, Gimlin, Freeman, Titmus, Huyghe, Bourtsev, Greenwell, Noll, Napier, Sarmiento, Fish, Coon, Berry, Sprague, Slick, Gordon, Moneymaker, Heuvelmans, Steenburg, Gates, Donskoy, Wylie, Haas, Slate, Crowe, Guttilla, Hibner, Franzoni, Laverty, Burns, Orchard, Keating, Wasson, Taft, Swindler, Glickman, Kirlin, Gill, Markotic, Murphy, Caddy, McClarin, Tchernine, Alley, Jackson, Shackley, Davis, Woolheater, Perry, Mizokami, Halpin, Ciochon, Baird, and Bord.

Contributions to bigfootdom by the above named can be found at your library or online.

RayG
As far as 'manitou', and the poem I referenced (See my signature at BFF), the manitou is noted as having a "long whoop, long cry, and a yell" in the forest. That is a physical description matching bigfoot. Simple.

The source for the 'poem' is in my signature at BFF.

See my first paragraph.

As far as kushtaka, I haven't found anything mentioning that. Walker states giants. He doesn't use the native term, as far as I know.

As far as Walker's description of "giants", that would denote a large, bipedal, humanoid. Or did he need to add hairy and docile to make it match bigfoot?

Concerning the list of researchers, I like Noll. He's presented physical evidence. Woolheater presented himself nicely on MonsterQuest. And Meldrum has an undeniable 'likeability', wouldn't you say?

Last edited by manofthesea; 24th February 2008 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:04 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
MOTS earlier said that 'giant' and 'cannibal' was what indicated sasquatch. I'm interested how he came to the decision that 'cannibal' indicated sasquatch. Are sasquatches known to prey on humans?

Also it has been said by different people that there are legends of bigfoot showing them as gods but also showing them as everyday animals.

I would like to see even one native tradition referencing bigfoot at all and also as an everyday animal. I have yet to find anything.
Giant and cannibal denote a 'large, bipedal, and certainly aggressive humanoid'. What part doesn't fit bigfoot? It certainly opposes the notion of docility, is that what doesn't match your definition of bigfoot? Inhabits mountain areas, also. I won't break out my mental hammer just yet, but try to understand that description. If need be, subsitute 'cannibal' (aggressive killer) with docile. He also (Walker) mentions that they throw stones, steal fish and eat it raw (like certain humans). If you don't see the match, I don't know what to say except hmmm...

Last edited by manofthesea; 24th February 2008 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Nevah wen grad
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:08 PM   #176
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From Chapter 31 of The Last of the Mohicans, by James Fenimore Cooper:

Quote:
Uncas moved with a slow and dignified tread toward the post, which he immediately commenced encircling with a measured step, not unlike an ancient dance, raising his voice, at the same time, in the wild and irregular chant of his war song. The notes were in the extremes of human sounds; being sometimes melancholy and exquisitely plaintive, even rivaling the melody of birds--and then, by sudden and startling transitions, causing the auditors to tremble by their depth and energy. The words were few and often repeated, proceeding gradually from a sort of invocation, or hymn, to the Deity, to an intimation of the warrior's object, and terminating as they commenced with an acknowledgment of his own dependence on the Great Spirit. If it were possible to translate the comprehensive and melodious language in which he spoke, the ode might read something like the following:
"Manitou! Manitou! Manitou!
Thou art great, thou art good, thou art wise:
Manitou! Manitou! Thou art just.
In the heavens, in the clouds, oh, I see
Many spots--many dark, many red:
In the heavens, oh, I see
Many clouds. In the woods, in the air, oh, I hear
The whoop, the long yell, and the cry:
In the woods, oh, I hear
The loud whoop!
Manitou! Manitou! Manitou!
I am weak--thou art strong; I am slow;
Manitou! Manitou! Give me aid."
Manitou=Deity
Manitou=Great Spirit
Manitou≠big hairy man-creature of the woods

Cooper, by the way, notoriously did his research into woodcraft and Native American thought by the process known as "making it up."
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:10 PM   #177
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Couple of Familiar Names Missing

I noticed that Ray didn't include historian and monstro in his list. Why?
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:20 PM   #178
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Just to note, when I found reference to boqs and the Kwakiutl, it was made by William Brandon in his book 'Indians'. No claim of being the 'father' of anything, he is referenced as America's preeminent authority of Native American history.
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:24 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
From Chapter 31 of The Last of the Mohicans, by James Fenimore Cooper:



Manitou=Deity
Manitou=Great Spirit
Manitou≠big hairy man-creature of the woods

Cooper, by the way, notoriously did his research into woodcraft and Native American thought by the process known as "making it up."
I have the unabridged version, released by Easton Press. There aren't any "thou art" in his poem. This version is also known as the Harvard edition, not available to the public.
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:32 PM   #180
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Thanks for answering my question RayG. Darn, I was sort of hoping there was more to the folklore then... well... folklore I guess.

I'm a bit confused why native american tribes would use such divergent descriptions if they are talking about the same creature. If Bigfoot have been part of the native fauna for such a long time wouldn't the stories be more similar to that of mythical bears and wolves?

I mean elaborate descriptions of a creatures apperance seems to hint that they are talking about something that noone has seen. In stories about wolves it tends to be more like "he saw a wolf and it was strange" not "he saw a strange creature that was called wolf".

Even with respect to the assumed, and mindboggingly, elusive nature of bigfeet I feel that it's really odd that humans can live side by side with them, for tens of thousands of years, and never learn so much about them that they considered them part of the mundane world.
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:53 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I hope Kidakaze didn't get locked in the library. He stated that he would be studying totems and then he'd get back here. That's assuming that books, real books (particularly those in the Reference Section) are still held in high esteem. Most of the good information is still not readily available on the internet.

Who cares? It's all just hearsay. Why believe a story just because it's old?

Will it be flud stories next?
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Old 24th February 2008, 12:58 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster:

"Dear FSM, thank you for giving me the power not to take freak's word for it. Whenever I feel tempted to take freak's word for it about the bigfoots with screwdrivers and the beans and what not... well, I'll just sprinkle a little of that sacred parmesan on myself and squeeze tight the holy meatballs in my pockets and kiss the sky. Zesty praise be to you, my Flying Spaghetti Monster. Ramen!"
And may the sauce be tasty.

Maybe, could it be, that we will get Creek's recipe for spaghetti?
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Old 24th February 2008, 01:01 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
As far as 'manitou', and the poem I referenced (See my signature at BFF), the manitou is noted as having a "long whoop, long cry, and a yell" in the forest. That is a physical description matching bigfoot. Simple.
It's neither simple nor factual. Since you don't include the entire song/poem, but only the bits that might be interpreted as pertaining to bigfoot, here it is in its entirety: [source* given below]

Quote:
"Manitou! Manitou! Manitou! Thou art great, thou art good, thou art wise: Manitou! Manitou! Thou art just.

"In the heavens, in the clouds, oh, I see Many spots--many dark, many red: In the heavens, oh, I see Many clouds.

"In the woods, in the air, oh, I hear The whoop, the long yell, and the cry: In the woods, oh, I hear The loud whoop!

"Manitou! Manitou! Manitou! I am weak--thou art strong; I am slow; Manitou! Manitou! Give me aid."
Not only did you ignore the fact that Manitou was regarded as a spirit/deity, but you've ignored the fact that Cooper does NOT indicate the loud whoop came from the manitou.

In fact, if you bother to read further (page 636 in that source I gave), you'll see that Cooper indicates the cause of that whooping/yelling/crying:

"the third [verse] was the well-known and terrific war- whoop, which burst from the lips of the young warrior, like a combination of all the frightful sounds of battle."

Quote:
The source for the 'poem' is in my signature at BFF.
No, actually it wasn't. The actual source was not given in your signature, only verse three and part of verse four. Providing an actual source would look something like this:

*The Last of the Mohicans, by James Fenimore Cooper, Chapter 31, pages 635 - 636.

Keep in mind two important details.
  • the book is a work of Historical fiction
  • the book is supposed to be a narrative of 1757, yet Cooper wasn't born until 1789
Quote:
See my first paragraph.
Your belief that Cooper was referencing an actual creature is not borne out by the facts.

Quote:
As far as kushtaka, I haven't found anything mentioning that. Walker states giants. He doesn't use the native term, as far as I know.
I hoped you would have enough initiative to at least Google the word kushtaka, or look for it on Wikipedia. Some bigfooters have embraced the names from a number of Native American sources, applying them to bigfoot whether they fit or not. Kushtaka is one of those.

Quote:
As far as Walker's description of "giants", that would denote a large, bipedal, humanoid. Or did he need to add hairy and docile to make it match bigfoot?
Walker is merely passing along anecdotal information, not any description that he witnessed. He may as well have written about trolls or ogres, as a giant humanoid need not be bigfoot.

Quote:
Concerning the list of researchers, I like Noll. He's presented physical evidence. Woolheater presented himself nicely on MonsterQuest. And Meldrum has an undeniable 'likeability', wouldn't you say?
I'm only interested in the truth, not whether I like someone or how well they present themselves. What evidence has Noll presented? I've seen speculation and opinion, but no evidence.

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Old 24th February 2008, 01:22 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I noticed that Ray didn't include historian and monstro in his list. Why?
Not surprisingly, you didn't notice this part though: "an incomplete list of names"

Just so you don't miss it again, I've highlighted/bolded/italicized/underlined the important part.

You can add historian and monstro to your own list if you wish, I'm not aware of any contribution to bigfootdom by either of them.

Given your interpretation of the Cooper song/poem, your powers of observation seem to be weak indeed.

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Old 24th February 2008, 01:25 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
It's neither simple nor factual. Since you don't include the entire song/poem, but only the bits that might be interpreted as pertaining to bigfoot, here it is in its entirety: [source* given below]

Not only did you ignore the fact that Manitou was regarded as a spirit/deity, but you've ignored the fact that Cooper does NOT indicate the loud whoop came from the manitou.

In fact, if you bother to read further (page 636 in that source I gave), you'll see that Cooper indicates the cause of that whooping/yelling/crying:

"the third [verse] was the well-known and terrific war- whoop, which burst from the lips of the young warrior, like a combination of all the frightful sounds of battle."

No, actually it wasn't. The actual source was not given in your signature, only verse three and part of verse four. Providing an actual source would look something like this:

*The Last of the Mohicans, by James Fenimore Cooper, Chapter 31, pages 635 - 636.

Keep in mind two important details.
  • the book is a work of Historical fiction
  • the book is supposed to be a narrative of 1757, yet Cooper wasn't born until 1789
Your belief that Cooper was referencing an actual creature is not borne out by the facts.

I hoped you would have enough initiative to at least Google the word kushtaka, or look for it on Wikipedia. Some bigfooters have embraced the names from a number of Native American sources, applying them to bigfoot whether they fit or not. Kushtaka is one of those.

Walker is merely passing along anecdotal information, not any description that he witnessed. He may as well have written about trolls or ogres, as a giant humanoid need not be bigfoot.

I'm only interested in the truth, not whether I like someone or how well they present themselves. What evidence has Noll presented? I've seen speculation and opinion, but no evidence.

RayG
Indians supposedly regarded Columbus as a god, do you doubt his existence?

Where do you think Cooper got that information regarding manitou and his whoop, yell?

Walker's information is undoubtedly anectdotal, he had no first hand knowledge of bigfoot apparently. Do you think he made it up along with the rest of his observations? Or just that one little part?
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Old 24th February 2008, 01:29 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
Cooper, by the way, notoriously did his research into woodcraft and Native American thought by the process known as "making it up."
Sources?
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Old 24th February 2008, 01:45 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Indians supposedly regarded Columbus as a god, do you doubt his existence?
Superstitious people believe lots of things, but whether they believe him to be a God or not, has no bearing on whether he truly was a God. Do you believe all myths and legends are based upon actual critters/happenings?

Quote:
Where do you think Cooper got that information regarding manitou and his whoop, yell?
Your powers of observation have failed you yet again. I provided in his own words, the source of the whoops, yells, and cries. Yegads, please tell me you don't need the source and quote again? With some of the stuff you've recently posted, I've begun to wonder if you're an adult or a pre-teen.

Quote:
Walker's information is undoubtedly anectdotal, he had no first hand knowledge of bigfoot apparently. Do you think he made it up along with the rest of his observations? Or just that one little part?
Since he's describing something that's human in origin, and not bigfootish, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. You, on the other hand, have misinterpreted a portion of a song/poem (that the author fully explains in a subsequent paragraph), and fully embrace the misinterpretation as a description of bigfoot. Is there some part of his explanation that you don't grasp correctly? Do you think his book is historically accurate?

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Old 24th February 2008, 01:59 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Superstitious people believe lots of things, but whether they believe him to be a God or not, has no bearing on whether he truly was a God. Do you believe all myths and legends are based upon actual critters/happenings?

Your powers of observation have failed you yet again. I provided in his own words, the source of the whoops, yells, and cries. Yegads, please tell me you don't need the source and quote again? With some of the stuff you've recently posted, I've begun to wonder if you're an adult or a pre-teen.

Since he's describing something that's human in origin, and not bigfootish, I'm not sure I see what you're getting at. You, on the other hand, have misinterpreted a portion of a song/poem (that the author fully explains in a subsequent paragraph), and fully embrace the misinterpretation as a description of bigfoot. Is there some part of his explanation that you don't grasp correctly? Do you think his book is historically accurate?

RayG
Indians regarding Columbus and other real creatures as gods is a point to consider. It requires a simple ability to understand similar concepts. You appear to not have that simple ability.
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Old 24th February 2008, 02:42 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Sources?
A good place to start is Roy Harvey Pearce, Savagism and Civilization, Baltimore: Johns Hopkins U Press, 2001. "Cooper's Indians did not resemble any that could be found in real life. . . they were wildly unrealistic."

"Cooper was interested in the Indian not for his own sake but for the sake of his relationship to the civilized men who were destroying him. So far as we can tell, Cooper had little personal contact with Indians."

Pearce quotes Cooper as saying he never knew any Native Americans personally: "I was never among the Indians. All I know of them is from reading and from hearing my father speak of them."
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Old 24th February 2008, 03:12 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Indians regarding Columbus and other real creatures as gods is a point to consider. It requires a simple ability to understand similar concepts. You appear to not have that simple ability.
.
Yes, points/concepts I considered and rejected a long time ago as they don't provide any factual support for beliefs or superstitions.

You should consider doing the same.

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Old 24th February 2008, 03:31 PM   #191
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Edit to remove double post.

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Old 24th February 2008, 05:55 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
A good place to start is Roy Harvey Pearce, Savagism and Civilization, Baltimore: Johns Hopkins U Press, 2001. "Cooper's Indians did not resemble any that could be found in real life. . . they were wildly unrealistic."

"Cooper was interested in the Indian not for his own sake but for the sake of his relationship to the civilized men who were destroying him. So far as we can tell, Cooper had little personal contact with Indians."

Pearce quotes Cooper as saying he never knew any Native Americans personally: "I was never among the Indians. All I know of them is from reading and from hearing my father speak of them."
Thanks to RayG and Spektator another one bites the dust.

BTW, wikipedia's Manitou entry:

Quote:
Manitou is a term used to designate the spirits among many Algonquian groups. It refers to the concept of one aspect of the interconnection and balance of nature/life, similar to the East Asian concept of qi; in simpler terms it can refer to a spirit. This spirit is seen as a (contactable) person as well as a concept. Everything has its own manitou—every plant, every stone and even machines. In the shamanistic traditions the manitous (or manidoog or manidoowag) are connected to achieve a desired effect, like plant manitous for healing or the buffalo manitou for a good hunt. In the Anishinaabeg tradition manidoowag are one aspect of the Great Connection. Related terms used by the Anishinaabeg are manidoowish for small animal manidoowag and manidoons for insects; both terms mean "little spirit".

This Manitous do not exist in a hierarchy like European gods/goddesses, but are more akin to one part of the body interacting with another and the spirit of everything.

The name of the Canadian Province of Manitoba is etymologically related to the word "manitou", and likely meant something like "narrows of the Manitou" or "strait of the Manitou" in Cree or Ojibwe.[1] Also Manitoulin Island means "spirit island".
Not very footy.
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Last edited by kitakaze; 24th February 2008 at 05:59 PM. Reason: For Ray.
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Old 24th February 2008, 06:21 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Thanks to RayG and Spektator another one bites the dust.

BTW, wikipedia's Manitou entry:

Not very footy.
Arguing with you guys is like stealing candy from children.

And you've resorted to wiki. Truly pitiful. Anyone with an ounce of critical thinking skills has now found the historical truths behind bigfoot.

And it only took me nine months. Kinda like my own bigfoot baby.

So, carry on...
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Old 24th February 2008, 06:55 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
And you've resorted to wiki. Truly pitiful.
More pitiful than resorting to superstition, wishful thinking, and historical fiction? I doubt it.

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Old 24th February 2008, 09:32 PM   #195
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Quote:
And you've resorted to wiki. Truly pitiful.
And more:

Quote:
Gitche Manitou (or Gitchi Manitou, Gitchie Manitou, Gitchee Manitou, Kitche Manitou; Gichi-manidoo in the modern spelling), in traditional Algonquian First Nations culture, is the Great Spirit, the Creator of all things and the Giver of Life. "Manitou" is an Anishinaabe word for "spirit", and "Gitche Manitou" means "Great Spirit". Its actual meaning comes closer to "Great Connection". French explorers reported the name as "Grand Manitou".

Contents [hide]
1 Gitche Manitou
2 Manitou as mystical term
3 See also
4 External links
5 References



[edit] Gitche Manitou
Gitche Manitou is often treated as those cultures' analogue to the Christian God. When early Christian missionaries preached the Gospel to the Algonquian peoples, they absorbed Gitche Manitou as a name for God through the process of syncretism. This can be seen, for example, in the words of the "Huron Carol". Other related names for God incorporated through the process of syncretism are Gizhe-manidoo ("Merciful Manidoo"), Wenizhishid-manidoo ("Fair Manidoo") and Gichi-ojichaag ("Great Spirit"). While Gichi-manidoo and Gichi-ojichaag both mean "Great Spirit", Gichi-manidoo carried the idea of the greater spiritual connectivity while Gichi-ojichaag carried the idea of individual's soul's connectivity to the Gichi-manidoo. Consequently, Christian missionaries often used the term Gichi-ojichaag to refer to the Christian idea of a Holy Spirit.


[edit] Manitou as mystical term
Main article: Manitou
The term Manitou itself refers to the concept of one aspect of the interconnection and balance of nature/life, similar to the East Asian concept of qi; in simpler terms it can refer to a spirit. This spirit is seen as a (contactable) person as well as a concept. Everything has its own manitou—every plant, every stone and even machines. These Manitous do not exist in a hierarchy like European gods/goddesses, but are more akin to one part of the body interacting with another and the spirit of everything; namely the collective is named Gitche Manitou.


[edit] See also
The Song of Hiawatha

[edit] External links
Mackinac Island
Wisconsin History
Sault Tribe of Chippewa Indians

[edit] References
Densmore, Frances. Chippewa Customs. (1979, Minnesota Historical Press).
Hoffman, Walter James, M.D. The Mide'wiwin: Grand Medicine Society of the Ojibway. (2005, Lightning Source Inc.)
Johnston, Basil. Ojibway Ceremonies. (1990, University of Nebraska Press).
Johnston, Basil. The Manitous: the spiritual world of the Ojibway. (2001, Minnesota Historical Society Press).
Nichols, John D. and Earl Nyholm. A Concise Dictionary of Minnesota Ojibwe. (1995, University of Minnesota Press).
Cuoq, Jean André. Lexique de la Langue Algonquine. (1886, J. Chapleau & Fils).
Rhodes, Richard A. Eastern Ojibwa-Chippewa-Ottawa Dictionary. (1985, Mouton de Gruyter).
Not very footy.

Quote:
Anyone with my kind of wishful thinking has now found the historical "truths" behind bigfoot.
Fixed it.
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Old 25th February 2008, 08:43 AM   #196
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A specific mention of the "Manitou" chant:

This comes from Lawrence Rosenwald, "The Last of the Mohicans and the Languages of America," College English 60 (1998), 9-30. Rosenwald quotes the chant, and then comments:

Quote:
Cooper's actual "translation" -- he was, of course, making up Uncas's song and not translating a Delaware original -- makes that necessity and difficulty [Uncas's communicating meaning by sheer sound to someone who doesn't speak the language] clear.
(from page 22)

On the following pages, 23-24, Rosenwald quotes an actual Native American song and translation (an Ojibwa chant involving a firefly, not bigfoot) to show how far off Cooper was from actual Native American ideas and speech.

So there you have it. The "of course" in Rosenwald's comment refers to Cooper's habitual invention of Indian language patterns and speech content (he earlier refers to Cooper's rendition of Delaware speech and gesture as "preposterous"). My old friend Dr. Mitchell E. Summerlin, a Cooper scholar and the author of books on Cooper, confirms informally that "Cooper read a few sources on Native Americans, but he made up most of his folklore."

Edited to add:

Renee L. Bergland. The National Uncanny: Indian Ghosts and American Subjects. Hanover and London: U P of New England, 1999. The first part of the book, especially the second section, takes Cooper to task for inventing Native American folklore out of whole cloth. The book's major thesis, however, is that Cooper's work treats the Native Americans themselves as "ghosts": their time in the world is up, but they refuse to leave and must be exorcized by European Americans to make way for their domination of the New World.

Not one word of this is from Wikipedia.

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Old 26th February 2008, 07:16 AM   #197
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One last citation: In the 1850 edition of the entire "Leatherstocking Tales" series, Cooper admitted that his portrait of Indians was "romanticized" and that he was presenting a "beau ideal," not the real thing. In introducing the stories, he comments,
Quote:
The legend is purely fiction, no authority existing for any of its facts, characters, or other peculiarities, beyond that which was thought necessary to secure the semblance of reality.
All in all, I don't think there is much, if any, authority for considering the "Manitou" chant anything but a white author's pastiche of what he imagined a war-chant might be.
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Old 26th February 2008, 08:14 AM   #198
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Spektator, why you wanna go and spoil fun things with your party-pooper facts?

Dang!

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Old 26th February 2008, 08:41 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Spektator, why you wanna go and spoil fun things with your party-pooper facts?

Dang!

RayG
Because of a polite request: "Sources?"
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:17 AM   #200
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Oh I understand, I'm just lamenting the end of the party.

"Phfft! Facts. You can use them to prove anything." -- Homer

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