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Tags bigfoot , native american myths

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Old 5th March 2008, 02:13 PM   #241
manofthesea
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Oh, But the Irony

Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
he "transcribed" it in a form ("flowery
I'd bet that is the first time ever that flowery was used to describe this speech. Have you ever read it's entirety, no matter the source?
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Old 5th March 2008, 02:24 PM   #242
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My apologies to WP. All the time I've taken to post in the last week has been devoted to the PGF thread. I haven't even begun to examine the material presented in the links of his I mentioned in my last post in this thread.

Until then it is my hope that we don't make any large AAH contributions.
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Old 5th March 2008, 02:40 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You have been outed as a troll.
.
"If somebody is simply ignorant or obtuse, it's incorrect to call him a troll. Admittedly, it's not always easy to distinguish between someone pretending to be wrong and someone who is wrong and doesn't know it or won't admit it."*

Originally Posted by manofthesea
Define troll.
.
"The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:

Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you."

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. The Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice all the while continuing to respond to them.

Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above."**

RayG

*http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtroll.html
**http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1032102
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Old 5th March 2008, 02:48 PM   #244
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Does it define a contrarianistic woo?
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Old 5th March 2008, 04:42 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Would it have been better to have it transcribed to 'hillbilly' then? Chief Sealth spoke Salish, it was transcribed in a formal literary prose. Kinda like the constitution and other important writings.
Oh, please... The constitution wasn't translated through 3 languages.
Funnily enough, though, it is constantly misquoted and misintepreted depending on the needs, biases or beliefs of those wishing to appeal to it's authority.
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Old 5th March 2008, 04:57 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I'd bet that is the first time ever that flowery was used to describe this speech.
Wrong. You obviously ignored the text that I quoted. Other examples.
http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/history/seattle1.html
http://www.fs.fed.us/eco/eco-watch/ew920221
http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/wslibrry.htm
http://tafkac.org/misc/chief_seattle...nt_speech.html
http://www.tr.wou.edu/perc/documents...ctureBooks.pdf

Quote:
Have you ever read it's entirety, no matter the source?
Never heard of it, Chief Seattle, Dr.Smith before this thread. As for source, the first article quotes Dr.Smith as stating in his 1887 column for the Seattle Sunday Star,
"...He makes it very clear that his version is not an exact copy, but rather the best he could put together from notes taken at the time. There is an undecided historical argument on which native dialect the Chief would have used, Duwamish or Suquamish."

So regardless of your unsubstatiated claims to the good doctor's linguistic skills, he seems to state that his recollection was inaccurate.

Straight from the horse's mouth. No need for arguments on whether translations were inaccurate or not - Dr.Smith states that his "transcript" is not an exact copy, but rather the best he could put together from notes taken at the time.
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Old 5th March 2008, 05:07 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Wrong. You obviously ignored the text that I quoted. Other examples.
http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/history/seattle1.html
http://www.fs.fed.us/eco/eco-watch/ew920221
http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/wslibrry.htm
http://tafkac.org/misc/chief_seattle...nt_speech.html
http://www.tr.wou.edu/perc/documents...ctureBooks.pdf

Never heard of it, Chief Seattle, Dr.Smith before this thread. As for source, the first article quotes Dr.Smith as stating in his 1887 column for the Seattle Sunday Star,
"...He makes it very clear that his version is not an exact copy, but rather the best he could put together from notes taken at the time. There is an undecided historical argument on which native dialect the Chief would have used, Duwamish or Suquamish."

So regardless of your unsubstatiated claims to the good doctor's linguistic skills, he seems to state that his recollection was inaccurate.

Straight from the horse's mouth. No need for arguments on whether translations were inaccurate or not - Dr.Smith states that his "transcript" is not an exact copy, but rather the best he could put together from notes taken at the time.
And all that means nada. You're taking issue with a text printed by U. of Oklahoma. It is reference material. You seem to desire a transliteration of the event, which is nonexistant at this time. His notes are the most correct.

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Old 5th March 2008, 05:18 PM   #248
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Here's a quote from the book leading to the speech.
"The speech given here was taken down by Dr. Henry Smith, a man of some talent, who mastered the Duwamish language in about two years. Dr. Smith has done us a great service in preserving this address, which may cause some present day citizens to wonder at Seattle's predictions."
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Old 5th March 2008, 08:51 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
It is my assertion that Native American traditions do not support the existence of bigfoot and that what is put forth by bigfoot enthusiasts as evidence for the existence of bigfoot has been cherry-picked and misrepresented.
I agree, and we saw a recent example of that with manofthesea and his misrepresentation of the poem/song by James Fenimore Cooper.

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Old 5th March 2008, 09:13 PM   #250
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Me Too

Originally Posted by RayG View Post
I agree, and we saw a recent example of that with manofthesea and his misrepresentation of the poem/song by James Fenimore Cooper.

RayG
You are the one who consistently misrepresents historical and current facts.

Firstly, Indians (historically and currently) have been noted to assign a 'spirituality or deity' type of respect for all creatures, and many objects.

Secondly, the poem by Cooper uses the term Manitou ten (10) separate times. It also uses the terms woods, whoops, yell, and other terms consistent with bigfoot.

The setting being situated in the New York Lakes area made it more interesting. And the year, 1850 or so.
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Old 6th March 2008, 07:01 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Here's a quote from the book leading to the speech.
"The speech given here was taken down by Dr. Henry Smith, a man of some talent, who mastered the Duwamish language in about two years. Dr. Smith has done us a great service in preserving this address, which may cause some present day citizens to wonder at Seattle's predictions."
You quote an book written in 1971.

I quoted an article written by Dr.Smith himself in 1887.

So who do you think is more correct on the recollection and transcribing of the speech?

The man who wrote it?
Or an author who wrote about the man who wrote it?
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Old 6th March 2008, 08:19 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
You are the one who consistently misrepresents historical and current facts.

Firstly, Indians (historically and currently) have been noted to assign a 'spirituality or deity' type of respect for all creatures, and many objects.
Yes, I haven't argued otherwise. Keep in mind, many of their myths, legends, and stories are not based on any facts (just like your manitou-bigfoot connection).

Quote:
Secondly, the poem by Cooper uses the term Manitou ten (10) separate times. It also uses the terms woods, whoops, yell, and other terms consistent with bigfoot.
It doesn't matter if he mentioned it 100 times, he makes no connection between manitou and bigfoot, you do. You have grabbed onto some sounds penned in a song/poem that you attribute to bigfoot, when the author clearly indicated the true, non-bigfoot source. You're engaging in intellectual dishonesty by advocating a position you know full well is false.

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Old 6th March 2008, 09:17 PM   #253
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Manitou. (Note, this 'smiley face' best represented my sentiment, "peeking out")
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Old 6th March 2008, 09:30 PM   #254
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Well I'm Iroquois, and after consulting with my various wind spirit guides and ghost wolves, I can safely say that not only is Bigfoot real, but he wears a headdress and eats babies raw. Wow, we Indians sure are a wacky bunch, aren't we?!

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Old 6th March 2008, 09:37 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Wheezebucket View Post
Wow, we Indians sure are a wacky bunch, aren't we?!
I can neither confirm nor deny that question.

In case you're new here, I'm Athabascan and grew up on Beacon Hill.

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Old 25th March 2008, 04:45 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Short but sweet:


I've addressed some of them and now I'll quickly deal with the one that she pronounced as 'stemahah' or STEE-MAH-HAH.

Also from Franzoni and Glickman's bigfoot native name list:

name/tribe/translation

Seatco Yakama/Klickitat/Puyallup "Stick Indian"
I've recently received verification/authentication from an informed source concerning 'Stick Indian'. The person is a member of the Colville group of tribes. And he resides on the reservation also. He stated that Stick Indian is the term currently used by the elders to describe sasquatch.
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Old 25th March 2008, 05:44 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I've recently received verification/authentication from an informed source concerning 'Stick Indian'. The person is a member of the Colville group of tribes. And he resides on the reservation also. He stated that Stick Indian is the term currently used by the elders to describe sasquatch.
Page 50 of Ella Elizabeth Clark 's Indian Legends from the Northern Rockies says that many Native Americans use the term "Stick Indian" in reference to supernatural dwarves.

I also found this to be of interest.
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Old 25th March 2008, 06:48 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post

Ella Elizabeth Clark 's Indian Legends from the Northern Rockies says that many Native Americans use the term "Stick Indian" in reference to supernatural dwarves.

.
This person, as I mentioned, resides on the Colville. That particular tribal group also inhabits the Cascades, which I am primarily interested in. It is a legitimate confirmation of historical legends. Note, this person had an encounter with a possible unknown creature while hunting. That is what started his current interest and willingness to discuss the circumstance. He stated that he was aware of the legend, but unconvinced as to the existence of a real creature(s).

Concerning Ella Clark, does it state her source of reference? Also, how big are supernatural dwarf's feet?
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Old 25th March 2008, 07:09 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Concerning Ella Clark, does it state her source of reference?
She used many sources for her book; I think that the references for the "stick indian" stories are given on page 327, but it's hard to say for sure since Google only offers certain pages in their online preview.

Quote:
Also, how big are supernatural dwarf's feet?
There are no comments regarding the size of the feet. However, considering that they're described as being "...just like human beings except that they were small," I'd imagine that the feet aren't big.
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Old 25th March 2008, 07:58 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post


There are no comments regarding the size of the feet. However, considering that they're described as being "...just like human beings except that they were small," I'd imagine that the feet aren't big.
The Rev. Elkanah Walker, while describing a race of giants and their propensity to steal salmon, also described a race of little people: "Natives also believed in a race of "little people" the Elequas Tern (Stick Indians), who inhabited high places, such as the Cascade Mountains."

But the 'howl' that I heard, combined with the other circumstances, lead me in the direction of the mentioned giants being bigfoot. That is one of their descriptive behaviors.
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Old 26th March 2008, 04:45 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I'm particularily interested in the totems displayed in my hometown of Victoria, BC at The Royal British Cloumbia Museum

In the meantime, some questions:

1) Do you think there are any clear representations of bigfoot in totem poles?

As far as bigfoot being represented in totem poles, I've seen no evidence of that yet. However, there are a few masks made by PNW tribes that are very striking.

I stopped by my favorite used book store today and picked up a couple of interesting books. One is titled "People of the Totem" published by Putnam. It has a nice collection of photos of masks and totems and other carvings. One mask in particular caught my attention. It is a Tsimshian mask that is at the Provincial Museum in Victoria, BC. It is cataloged as an 'ape-like face'. Are you aware of this mask and if so, what are your thoughts about it. I can scan the photo if you'd like.

The book does point out however, that the northwest coast indians were primarily a seafaring and fishing culture without much in depth understanding of the forests.

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Old 26th March 2008, 08:13 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
As far as bigfoot being represented in totem poles, I've seen no evidence of that yet. However, there are a few masks made by PNW tribes that are very striking.

I stopped by my favorite used book store today and picked up a couple of interesting books. One is titled "People of the Totem" published by Putnam. It has a nice collection of photos of masks and totems and other carvings. One mask in particular caught my attention. It is a Tsimshian mask that is at the Provincial Museum in Victoria, BC. It is cataloged as an 'ape-like face'. Are you aware of this mask and if so, what are your thoughts about it. I can scan the photo if you'd like.

The book does point out however, that the northwest coast indians were primarily a seafaring and fishing culture without much in depth understanding of the forests.
About the masks from Wikipedia's entry on bigfoot evidence:

Quote:
[edit] Face masks
In "The Tsimshian Monkey Masks and Sasquatch," the anthropologist and ethnologist Marjorie Halpin describes two wood facemasks that were collected from the Tsimshian and Nisga'a tribes (near Prince Rupert, British Columbia). One was obtained by Lieutenant G. T. Emmons in about 1914, and the other was obtained by Marius Barbeau in 1927.[4][5]

Emmons described the artifact as "a mythical being found in the woods, and called today as a monkey" (Halpin and Ames, 211). Halpin also reports that the physical anthropologist R.D.E. MacPhee examined the Emmons mask and noted that it had both monkey- and ape-like features, but could not match it exactly to any recognized species (ibid, 212). Halpin details the elaborate mask-related folklore and rites pertaining to a creature called "pi'kis," which has both human and animal traits (especially connected to otters). He also describes the creature as occupying a "dangerously close intersection between human and animal" in native lore (ibid, 225). As with the carved stone heads, Halpin notes that these monkey-like masks alone do not prove that Sasquatch are real; rather, they are curious artifacts which warrant further investigation.
I wonder if we're getting near Land Otters.

BTW, here's an online tour of the Royal BC Museum's Thunderbird Park if your interested, though I don't know if you're still in the bizarre habit of 'not doing links':

http://www.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/exhib...n.htm?lang=eng

Please scan the mask and post the name of the artist and mask.
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Old 26th March 2008, 01:07 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post

I wonder if we're getting near Land Otters.

BTW, here's an online tour of the Royal BC Museum's Thunderbird Park if your interested, though I don't know if you're still in the bizarre habit of 'not doing links':

http://www.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/exhib...n.htm?lang=eng

Please scan the mask and post the name of the artist and mask.
I don't know what would make someone determine Land Otter when looking at this mask. But anything is possible. I'll try and scan it today.

I'll pass on your recommended link.
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Old 26th March 2008, 03:47 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I don't know what would make someone determine Land Otter when looking at this mask. But anything is possible. I'll try and scan it today.

I'll pass on your recommended link.
Suit yourself. One of Mungo Martin's more prominent totems there has dsonoqua carved at the bottom.

Tsimshian masks:

Rotatable:

http://www.nmai.si.edu/exhibitions/a...mshianMask.htm

Fur on the face. Yours for only USD $1,808,000:

http://www.randafricanart.com/Native_American_news.html

Biglip:

http://www.thecityreview.com/f99samind.html

3rd down, Land Otter?:

http://thecanadianencyclopedia.com/i...=A1ARTA0008149
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Old 26th March 2008, 04:00 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Suit yourself. One of Mungo Martin's more prominent totems there has dsonoqua carved at the bottom.
Okay, I'll have a look.
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Old 26th March 2008, 04:37 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Okay, I'll have a look.
When you check it out, click on 'Present Park 1980-2006' then click on the totem in front of the main long house titled 'Kwakwaka' wakw Heraldic Pole 1953'.

BTW, I've been keeping an eye on the recent BFF Native evidence thread. I thought it was rather interesting when BFF Historian Tirademan man said of this collection of wild man drawings:

Quote:
They make it all the more obvious to me that Squatch has always been out there and humans have always seen them. Another reason not to give skeptics any of your time!
I think Tirademan is rather generous with his use of the word 'obvious'. I wonder if someone were to give a link there to this thread if it would be deleted.
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Old 26th March 2008, 04:48 PM   #267
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
One of Mungo Martin's more prominent totems there has dsonoqua carved at the bottom.

Tsimshian masks:
Biglip:

http://www.thecityreview.com/f99samind.html

Land Otter?:
The dzonokwa figures are very interesting. Especially considering the historical myth attached.

I didn't notice any mention of Land Otter, did I miss it?
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Old 26th March 2008, 04:58 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
The dzonokwa figures are very interesting. Especially considering the historical myth attached.

I didn't notice any mention of Land Otter, did I miss it?
No, you didn't miss it. My use of a question mark after Land Otter was simply based on the mask's resemblance to an otter.
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Old 26th March 2008, 05:11 PM   #269
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I posted the photo at BFF in the Native evidence thread. I was unable to host the photo here because of the size.
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Old 26th March 2008, 05:41 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I posted the photo at BFF in the Native evidence thread. I was unable to host the photo here because of the size.
OK, that looks a little similar to Biglip. Got an artist name or any info that can help me track it?
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 26th March 2008, 05:58 PM   #271
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No artist name or date. It was mixed in with the 1850ish material. It only states in the bibliography - photo page 98, Provincial Museum, Victoria, BC.
The book has many photos of masks and totems from worldwide collections, a couple with the characteristic dzonokwa mouth.
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Old 26th March 2008, 06:46 PM   #272
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I don't have the book here with me to check but I almost vaguely remember that photo being in Krantz's 'Big Footprints' book. What do you think makes it characteristic of being a sasquatch?
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 26th March 2008, 11:11 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
I don't have the book here with me to check but I almost vaguely remember that photo being in Krantz's 'Big Footprints' book. What do you think makes it characteristic of being a sasquatch?
I don't know what the exact characteristics of sasquatch are. While looking through the book I noticed that this particular mask had a caption that stated it was cataloged as "ape-like face". It was only one of a couple of masks that had the exposed nostrils and lacking chin definition, contrasting the majority of masks. There were also a few that had the characteristic mouth of wild woman.
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Old 27th March 2008, 04:14 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I posted the photo at BFF in the Native evidence thread. I was unable to host the photo here because of the size.
Here's something interesting. In the BFF Native evidence thread in response to the mask you posted, member Bob Zenor posts this image of a Kwakiutl seal mask and with that special brand of bigfoot enthusiast confidence comments:

Quote:
That is so obviously not a seal that it is amusing. I wonder if it they are really that ignorant to not notice or if they are just so worried about sounding crazy that they refuse to acknowledging the obvious similarity to some sort of apeman.
Here we have a vivid example of footer logic in play. The desire to see bigfoot is strong. It doesn't occur to Zenor that the anthropomorphizing of animals in various indigenous North American cultures is common and consistent. He's convinced himself that he's looking at a Kwakwaka' wakw representation of bigfoot. It takes little effort in examining this subject to find images of native anthropomorphic animal representations such as these:

Bear mask, Tsimshian:

http://www.snowwowl.com/images/legacy3.jpg

Blue Jay mask, Skokomish:

http://www.snowwowl.com/images/legacy12.jpg

Supernatural Cod Fish mask, Kwakwaka' wakw:

http://www.snowwowl.com/images/legacy9.jpg

Mosquito mask, Tsimshian:

http://www.snowwowl.com/images/legacy2.jpg

If bigfoot enthusiasts such as Bob Zenor would avail themselves to the minimal effort it takes to learn things such as this they could avoid the derision they've earned. That they call bigfoot without any investigation and call those who didn't ignorant is the height of arrogance. The mask is listed as representing a seal. It's got great big whiskers like a seal. We know the Kwakwaka' wakw were intimately familiar with the appearance of seals. We know in their art they often made anthropomorphic representations of animals. Dude, get over yourself. It's not a frickin' bigfoot, it's a seal.

MOTS, you should do the Zenor brothers a favour and give them a link here or PM them one if the zealots delete it in thread.
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Last edited by kitakaze; 27th March 2008 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 27th March 2008, 09:28 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
The Rev. Elkanah Walker, while describing a race of giants and their propensity to steal salmon, also described a race of little people: "Natives also believed in a race of "little people" the Elequas Tern (Stick Indians), who inhabited high places, such as the Cascade Mountains."
Well, technically, he was describing (quote) "superstitions" of giants.

Quote:
But the 'howl' that I heard, combined with the other circumstances, lead me in the direction of the mentioned giants being bigfoot. That is one of their descriptive behaviors.
Well, I'll grant you that (minus the howling bit; you might as well lump in werewolves) this is a better fit than your previous attempts to link Native American legends to Bigfoot. However, what you're doing is exactly the type of filtration issue kitakaze was talking about when he started this thread.

I recommend that you look for the thread "The Wallace Hoax prints, Where did he get the idea?" over that the General Discussions section at BFF. Post #18 by RayG should be of interest to you. Those who "do links" can just click here and scroll down to see why it's not a very good idea to try using old legends as evidence for a real animal existing.
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Old 27th March 2008, 10:50 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by AtomicMysteryMonster View Post
Well, I'll grant you that (minus the howling bit; you might as well lump in werewolves) this is a better fit than your previous attempts to link Native American legends to Bigfoot. However, what you're doing is exactly the type of filtration issue kitakaze was talking about when he started this thread.


.
False accusation. I merely presented a photo that is cataloged as "ape-like face". Read it again. Think about it.

Same with the manitou. I noticed obvious references to bigfoot characteristics. Characteristics.
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Old 28th March 2008, 12:53 AM   #277
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The book that I picked up has a picture of a 'Bokwus, Kwakiutl Wild-Man-of-the-Woods' mask. Shall I post that at BFF also? It doesn't look ape-like at all.
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Old 28th March 2008, 04:41 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Same with the manitou. I noticed obvious references to bigfoot characteristics.
Regardless of what you noticed, there were no "obvious references to bigfoot characteristics", and you seem willfully oblivious to the author's explanation for whooping warriors that you romantically ascribe to bigfoot. (a long-winded way of saying you were incorrect in your assumption)

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Old 28th March 2008, 05:22 AM   #279
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Ray, I should have asked you before. Do you think posting a link to this thread in the BFF Native evidence thread would be deleted?
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2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 28th March 2008, 03:28 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
False accusation. I merely presented a photo that is cataloged as "ape-like face". Read it again. Think about it.
Um...I wasn't talking about any masks. What made you think that I was?

Quote:
Same with the manitou. I noticed obvious references to bigfoot characteristics. Characteristics.
Yes, and that's precisely the sort of thing kitakaze and I were talking about.
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