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Tags bigfoot , native american myths

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Old 4th April 2008, 10:50 AM   #321
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Your own mother told your her tribe has no bigfoot.
Correct. My tribe is located in the Alaskan Interior on the Yukon River. Near the Tanana River junction. She stated that when she was a child that the men in her tribe would occasionally battle "Eskimos" while out on a hunt. When I asked her why, she stated "because they're different". Eskimos aren't that different, so I still have some questions, for later.

However, like you said, the native makers of certain artifacts know exactly what creatures they are portraying. Whether it be a wolf, bear, or Bokwus-Wild Man of the Woods.

Here's a bag that my grandmother, a noted Athabascan crafts maker, made and gave to my wife after we married more than 25 years ago. She described the creature as an eagle and I have no reason to doubt her.



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Old 4th April 2008, 11:35 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
However, like you said, the native makers of certain artifacts know exactly what creatures they are portraying. Whether it be a wolf, bear, or Bokwus-Wild Man of the Woods.
You know, why don't you tell that to Bob Zenor over at the BFF who can't seem to comprehend an anthropomorphic seal? After that go back and read the OP of this thread again where buk'wus is addressed. Bear and wolf - Not a supernatural ghost figure.
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Old 4th April 2008, 11:38 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
However, like you said, the native makers of certain artifacts know exactly what creatures they are portraying. Whether it be a wolf, bear, or Bokwus-Wild Man of the Woods.
Then I don't understand what you recently wrote on BFF, or you didn't clarify your point.

Originally Posted by MOTS
Here's a Kwakiutl carving that is cataloged as a seal, but is obviously a sea otter. From the book "People of the Totem", photo credit to Museum of Natural History, Chicago.


This is almost a perfect rendition of a fur seal. The shape of the neck, head, and the facial features are all much like a Northern fur seal. I will say the feet do look more like paws than flippers. Yet you declare that the caption is wrong and it is obviously a sea otter. Maybe you are right, but what makes you say this?



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Old 4th April 2008, 11:42 AM   #324
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BTW, the two Iroquois entries - 'Stonish Giant' and 'Giant Monster'. It's like a classified ad that says "Vehicle for sale. Used." or a personal that says "Person. Single."
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Old 4th April 2008, 11:53 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yet you declare that the caption is wrong and it is obviously a sea otter. Maybe you are right, but what makes you say this?
I was only using the caption in the book "People of the Totem" as reference.
It says "Although the carved wooden bowl is said to represent a seal, the presence of the tail and paws make it almost certain that a sea-otter is really depicted." Text is by Norman Bancroft-Hunt.
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Old 4th April 2008, 11:56 AM   #326
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Bokwus

Here is the picture of the "Bokwus, the Kwakiutl Wild-Man-of-the-Woods" mask.


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Old 4th April 2008, 12:03 PM   #327
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MOTS, that bag your grandmother made is beautiful. I absolutely love it. It may not matter much to your family, but it probably has considerable monetary value.

The following is no criticism of her, or you. Anyone can see that that is a bald eagle. But it has a problem of sorts. She gave it a black tail with white feather tips. A bald eagle doesn't have that. An adult BE (which she shows) has a tail that is entirely white.

Hundreds of years into the future, a person with cryptozoological inklings could pay close attention to this bag. They could speculate that it really was an accurate piece, but it seems to show an unknown species or subspecies of eagle. Why? Because of the tail.

The point is that translations or interpretations of artifacts can be strongly tied to the personality and opinions of the observer. We will all be dead by then and unable to explain that she simply took artistic license with a genuine bald eagle. This has relation to present day interpretations of artifacts that cause people to think Bigfoot. Most of those artists are dead and so they have no opportunity to tell us that they are not carvings meant to show Bigfoot after they had a sighting. We can't even say with confidence that they saw anything like a Bigfoot prior to making their objects.
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Old 4th April 2008, 12:09 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
MOTS, that bag your grandmother made is beautiful. I absolutely love it. It may not matter much to your family, but it probably has considerable monetary value.

The following is no criticism of her, or you. Anyone can see that that is a bald eagle. But it has a problem of sorts. She gave it a black tail with white feather tips. A bald eagle doesn't have that. An adult BE (which she shows) has a tail that is entirely white.

Hundreds of years into the future, a person with cryptozoological inklings could pay close attention to this bag. They could speculate that it really was an accurate piece, but it seems to show an unknown species or subspecies of eagle. Why? Because of the tail.

The point is that translations or interpretations of artifacts can be strongly tied to the personality and opinions of the observer. We will all be dead by then and unable to explain that she simply took artistic license with a genuine bald eagle. This has relation to present day interpretations of artifacts that cause people to think Bigfoot. Most of those artists are dead and so they have no opportunity to tell us that they are not carvings meant to show Bigfoot after they had a sighting. We can't even say with confidence that they saw anything like a Bigfoot prior to making their objects.
That is your interpretation of her work and that is fine. I am sure it was done by design rather than an attempt to fully depict a real bald eagle. Color patterns may be more important than actual depictions in certain crafts. Or she could be representing an actual bird recognizable to her. I didn't ask. I only asked her to make a bag. She crested it herself.
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Old 4th April 2008, 12:11 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I was only using the caption in the book "People of the Totem" as reference. It says "Although the carved wooden bowl is said to represent a seal, the presence of the tail and paws make it almost certain that a sea-otter is really depicted." Text is by Norman Bancroft-Hunt.
Thanks and that helps. But the artist gave the creature a mouth with a large gape (seal) and huge eyes (seal). One could argue that it has characteristics of both animals. How can we know the intent of the artist? Maybe they carved it from memory (not looking closely at either animal at the time of making it) and ended up with what we see. They may have wanted to show a seal but gave it some features that look more like otter. Maybe they really did intend to blend the two animals and long afterwards we are left to argue that it must be one or the other.
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Old 4th April 2008, 12:21 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Here is the picture of the "Bokwus, the Kwakiutl Wild-Man-of-the-Woods" mask.
My god... That forehead... Those eyebrows...



In this performance the part of David Hemmings will be played by a piece of wood...



...David Hemmings appeared by permission of the National Forestry Commission.
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Old 4th April 2008, 12:24 PM   #331
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Here is a mask "cataloged as an ape-like face". It is Tsimshian. The author equates to a skull, but note the ears, lips, and intentional internal nostril divide. Sadly it doesn't have the precise Tsimshian(ian?) description, only "ape-like", which must be by intent.


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Old 4th April 2008, 12:26 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
My god... That forehead... Those eyebrows...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...67e5d01c7a.jpg

In this performance the part of David Hemmings will be played by a piece of wood...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...679d0db14d.jpg

...David Hemmings appeared by permission of the National Forestry Commission.
How about, what do Ainu look like? Or, the definition of Skepticism, Redefined.

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Old 4th April 2008, 12:30 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
That is your interpretation of her work and that is fine. I am sure it was done by design rather than an attempt to fully depict a real bald eagle. Color patterns may be more important than actual depictions in certain crafts. Or she could be representing an actual bird recognizable to her. I didn't ask. I only asked her to make a bag. She crested it herself.
I don't know what you mean by "my interpretation" of her work. It is what it is. I was pointing out that bald eagles don't have a tail like that. It doesn't detract from the bag in any way that I would explain.

I'm just putting this into a larger context. Crypto folks can and do look at things like this and fantasize that it could show a real bird as it appeared to the artist. Same with the otter/seal carving. They might even speculate that there was (or still is) some species of sea otter that has a head just like a fur seal. It doesn't matter that there are no bodies or fossils of such an imagined creature.

I think that this is going on with people who look at NA artifacts and shout out Bigfoot!
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Old 4th April 2008, 12:43 PM   #334
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For those anthropomorphically inclined, here is a Tlingit owl from the front of a 60' war canoe. Note the brow ridge, nostrils, and hands.


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Old 4th April 2008, 12:49 PM   #335
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The "ape-like face" looks more like a standard gray alien...


So much for cherry-picking characteristics on art...
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Old 4th April 2008, 03:10 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Correa Neto View Post
The "ape-like face" looks more like a standard gray alien...

So much for cherry-picking characteristics on art...
I concede it has two eyes, as opposed to the one eyed brazilian bigfuto, but it is cataloged as apelike, not alienlike. Cataloged by an expert, not a toy afficionado.

Remember, this is Thunderduomo.

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Old 4th April 2008, 03:46 PM   #337
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That Tsimshian head carving could be described as ape-like if the person is inclined to think that way. But if another person called it human-like (is a human) it would be hard to argue against that and say it is an (wild) ape instead.

Again we can't know the intent of the artist, nor if they used anything at all as a model. The eye sockets and brow ridges are so strange that it is pure speculation to suggest that this represents any living or extinct hominoid. Alien devotees might be quick to say there is no way that thing is human or ape. This tribe had extraterrestial visitation. No doubt about it.

BTW, I have a question for anyone. We know people are attributing various artifacts to being made in the likeness of Bigfoot. Is anyone suggesting (or implying) that the artist themselves had a sighting and then made the work using their memory of what it looked like. Or, do we have artists creating these things according to what other tribe members may have described? Or what?
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Old 4th April 2008, 03:56 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
BTW, I have a question for anyone. We know people are attributing various artifacts to being made in the likeness of Bigfoot. Is anyone suggesting (or implying) that the artist themselves had a sighting and then made the work using their memory of what it looked like. Or, do we have artists creating these things according to what other tribe members may have described? Or what?
That is a baited question. You are the one who recommended Halpin and her series, which deals with masks, myths, manlike monsters...but you didn't mention if any of her work dealt with any of the various Thunderbird myths, you know, for any ufo buffs.
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Old 4th April 2008, 04:07 PM   #339
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Written communication is not your forte. Now, as often in the past, I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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Old 4th April 2008, 04:15 PM   #340
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South Americans are evidently preoccupied with aliens, the spaceship kind.



And it's grey too.
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Old 4th April 2008, 04:27 PM   #341
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There are a number of modern artists creating Bigfoot images and objects. You can find these on the web. Some have created many different variations on the basic Bigfoot mental image. For the most part, these artists have not witnessed the subjects that they create. Sometimes they may create them from verbal descriptions given to them and sometimes they simply use their own imagination and get to work.

One example of such an artist is Pat Barker.



Not to detract from her good artistic skills - but these are drawings of a creature that may not exist at all outside of the human imagination.
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Old 4th April 2008, 04:33 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
Okay, put down your Hello Kitty - Xray glasses for a sec and check this out.
I ordered my first bigfoot books.

1) Do Abominable Snowmen of America Really Exist --- Roger Patterson
2) Scweneyti, Stick Indians of the Colville --- Ed Fusch
3) Raincoast Sasquatch --- Robert Pyle
4) Where Bigfoot Walks --- Some Guy
5) The Wilderness Hunter --- Teddy Roosevelt (executive edition)
6) Nine Years With the Spokane Indians, The Diary --- Elkanah Walker

I bet not a single one of you have all these books. They're just my first endeavor into some buk lurn'ng.
I hope you get the right one. The Raincoast Sasquatch I know about was written by Robert Alley.
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Old 4th April 2008, 04:43 PM   #343
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Jesse D'Angelo (Ravenwolf)

Quote:
He has always been fascinated with unexplained phenomena, and recently his interest in Bigfoot research peaked. Convinced after reviewing all available evidence that these creatures exist, D'Angelo has vowed to contribute in some way to the search. He dreams of one day going on his own Bigfoot expeditions, and possibly obtaining evidence of his own. But today he creates artwork based on witness reports, trying artistically and scientifically to create accurate depictions of these animals.
This artist has never seen a Bigfoot. He seems to be going with the Roman nose. His baby Bigfoot looks a bit like Gollum.
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Old 4th April 2008, 06:05 PM   #344
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Alexander the Great

Here's a depiction of Alexander riding his great steed, Bucephalu the unicorn, encountering a remnant tribe of manlike creatures in Persia.



It's too bad that the artist had to add a touch of unrealism to the painting by adding a horn to the bigfeet.
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Old 4th April 2008, 07:19 PM   #345
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Wasn't that the most fantastic depiction of possible bigfeet that you've ever seen? Definitely much more glorious than Teddy's (tale). I haven't found any hieroglyphs depicting Ramses or Tut with a possible bigfoot (yet).
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Old 4th April 2008, 07:22 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Hi, Karl. Welcome to the JREF. Yeah, for some reason we were suddenly talking about underground dance music culture. I'm pleased that you've found this thread interesting. Please feel free to use whatever you like. I would only ask that it be sourced and when the time comes that you finish, please share with us a link. Member Big Les did something similar with his blog which you may find interesting. I'll go back and link it.
No worries; sources, when available, are a must, and a link will be forthcoming. It may take a while though. I work 12 hour days 5 and 6 days a week, which doesn't allow for much writing time (which is one reason I appreciate you saving me so much research time), but I promise to announce it once it's written.

Thank you.

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Old 4th April 2008, 08:08 PM   #347
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At Least He Brought Us Spaghetti

It's been noted (mostly by me) that occasionally someone mistakes bigfoot for a werewolf or dogman. Here's Marco Polo's observation of "canine people" of the Andaman Isles. Perhaps he stayed ashore and only witnessed them from afar and that is the reason for the mistaken identification. Or preexisting cultural beliefs led him to believe he was seeing dogmen instead of bigfeet.



Note the 'dogmen' are conducting 'trade', perhaps in honey and garlic.
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Old 4th April 2008, 08:56 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
It's been noted (mostly by me) that occasionally someone mistakes bigfoot for a werewolf or dogman.
Yes, you seem to have a habit of putting a bigfoot spin on something that isn't warranted. That might be appealing to bigfoot romantics, but it doesn't impress skeptics.

RayG
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Old 4th April 2008, 09:16 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Yes, you seem to have a habit of putting a bigfoot spin on something that isn't warranted. That might be appealing to bigfoot romantics, but it doesn't impress skeptics.

RayG
Not impressed by Alexander the Great or Marco Polo, huh? I have a feeling the Great and Magnificent Genghis wasn't bothered by bigfeet. But there was a great Eastern leader who sought beneficiance from the tribe of bigfeet. Here's Prince Rama and his brother Lakshmana (almost rhymes with Kushtaka) meeting with the simian leader Hanuman, while seeking Prince Rama's wife Sita.



Notice that this artist has obviously painted by way of anecdote as his bigfeet have tails, as Alexander's had horns.
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Old 5th April 2008, 08:21 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by RayG View Post
Yes, you seem to have a habit of putting a bigfoot spin on something that isn't warranted. That might be appealing to bigfoot romantics, but it doesn't impress skeptics.
This is modern shamanism. MOTS is very close to Historian and Beckjord in this respect. The pursuit of visions does not play well in skeptical arenas. It is also problematic with Bigfooters who adhere tightly to a flesh-blood creature and the desire for cohesive details when describing encounters and evidences. That is why the BFF doesn't work out so well for MOTS, Historian and Beckjord.

So why do they end up here on JREF? Isn't this the last place that they would expect a receptive audience? It isn't about that. Somewhat ironically, JREF is a refuge that is not offered by Bigfooter forums. In those places the shaman is quickly identified as such and is labelled a Bigfoot wacko. That alone can get you banned or treated much worse than what you see going on here. JREF will not ban or muzzle you for your visions or beliefs. You have to somewhat flagrantly abuse the Membership Agreement for that to happen. Historian and Beckjord would still be posting here if only they could contain their hostility and not cross a pre-defined line.

Putting a Bigfoot spin on, or "seeing" Bigfoot in almost anything, is the result of a vision quest by the modern shaman.

Rama is not meeting with anthropomorphized langur monkeys. Those are Bigfoots and the lax artist simply made the mistake of putting tails on them. Can't you see this? Can't you get a vision for yourself? Or, does MOTS have to do all the work for you?
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Old 5th April 2008, 09:01 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Can't you see this? Can't you get a vision for yourself?
Nope, guess I just have no imagination.

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Old 5th April 2008, 11:26 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This is modern shamanism. MOTS is very close to Historian and Beckjord in this respect.

That is why the BFF doesn't work out so well for MOTS, Historian and Beckjord.

Or, does MOTS have to do all the work for you?
I thought that I identified more with Creekfreak, but that's okay.

Neil and Eric are bigwigs in this field. But I try my best to keep my deliveries at an elementary level, you know, dumb it down for you guys. Leave crumbs on the trail kinda thing. Don't revel in leaving anyone 'out'.

But anyway, what differentiates Rama's, Marco Polo's, and Teddy Roosevelt's stories. According to my established contemporaries' views, our monkeys are as intelligent or more than the historic monkey-men. Ours can change dimension. zzzzzt. Bing. Bonk.

I'm not trying to make kitakaze feel left out and abandoned, by the way.
I'll post a couple pictures for him later. No habdingdong or whatever. I got a picture of the great and fantastic Japanese unicorn, Kirin. Cheers!
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Old 5th April 2008, 11:39 AM   #353
kitakaze
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MOTS' new job at a museum of natural history -

The Labels

Pimply Intern: Sir, the transfer shipment has just arrived. Would you like me to assist with the inventory?

MOTS: Yes, thank you. Let's get started.

PI: OK. Ummm... here is the oak Haida bowl with the beaver relief.

M: Buck-tooth bigfoot bowl... check.

PI: And this I think was the Salish bowl of cedarwood with a moon figure on the side from Seattle.

M: Cedar Salish Sasquatch Saucer from Seattle... check.

PI: Iroquois ceremonial flute...

M: Call blaster... check.

PI:Sir, I think...

M: *starts snarling, growling, roaring, and teeth-gnashing*

PI: Sir?

M: Do you hear that sound, boy?

PI: I'm afraid I...

M: That, my young intern friend, is The Boss of the Woods and he is coming for you! *starts howling*

PI: Sir, I think I've got to...

M: Kid, you got zits, is what you got. Me? I got CHASED!

PI: *runs*
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Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 5th April 2008, 11:51 AM   #354
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Historian and Beckjord would still be posting here if only they could contain their hostility and not cross a pre-defined line.
You left out a couple of people. I noticed Huntster posted here, but was banned also. There was a real bigwig here, bf2006 or something, who left rather quickly when badgered with incessant drivel. And Hairyman herself, doesn't seem to find it conducive to constructive discussion to stay around for more than one or two posts. Sadly, it reflects directly on the type of skepticism displayed here. Rather, it's contrarianism. So, you're left with me.

But don't worry, I've ordered my first bigfoot book. I'll learn about the real bigfoot, things like midtarsal breaks, look back sequence, skunk smells, "my camera stopped working"; you know, real bigfoot stuff like you guys know.
Not that traditional indian, he can kill you stuff. He just wants to throw pebbles and play hide n seek.

If you're saddened by the loss of the faithful, maybe you can try your banter with a couple of the ex faithful that lurk here. Like gtcs, blackdog, mangler, ray, drew. You're sitting on a gold mine of (ex) faith right here. I'm sure they'd play along, you know, like ltc.

Last edited by manofthesea; 5th April 2008 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 5th April 2008, 11:56 AM   #355
Correa Neto
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Originally Posted by manofthesea
South Americans are evidently preoccupied with aliens, the spaceship kind.
See, you just proved my point.

First of all note that its art, art based on myths. It may be an artist's interpretation of a myth, and this is what you are interpretating according to your XXI century Western cultural background and your pro-bigfoot bias. You (as well as some other people) are eager to see bigfeet everywhere - Enkidu, Mapinguari, hibagon, grendel, [add name of your choice derived from Native North American folklore here]...
In the case of that particular sculpture, a certain person considers it to be "ape-like"; I dare to disagree- the only ape that looks like that IMHO is H. sapiens. In my opinion, it actually looks like someone's decomposed head (and the author, as you cited, seems to agree with this position); if I stretch my imagination and think like a UFO buff, I'll compare it to the rendering of a gray alien.
Remember, appeals to authority are useless here...
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Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…

Last edited by Correa Neto; 5th April 2008 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 5th April 2008, 12:00 PM   #356
Correa Neto
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"Learn about real bigfoot"

Are there any?

The invisible ones? Those who live everywhere yet nowhere?
__________________
Racism, sexism, ignorance, homophobia, intolerance, extremism, authoritarianism, environmental disasters, politically correct crap, violence at sport stadiums, slavery, poverty, wars, people who disagree with me:
Together we can find the cure
Oh, and together we can find a cure to religion too…
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Old 5th April 2008, 12:02 PM   #357
kitakaze
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
You left out a couple of people. I noticed Huntster posted here, but was banned also. There was a real bigwig here, bf2006 or something, who left rather quickly when badgered with incessant drivel. And Hairyman herself, doesn't seem to find it conducive to constructive discussion to stay around for more than one or two posts. Sadly, it reflects directly on the type of skepticism displayed here. Rather, it's contrarianism. So, you're left with me.

But don't worry, I've ordered my first bigfoot book. I'll learn about the real bigfoot, things like midtarsal breaks, look back sequence, skunk smells, "my camera stopped working"; you know, real bigfoot stuff like you guys know.
Not that traditional indian, he can kill you stuff. He just wants to throw pebbles and play hide n seek.
Huntster's banning had nothing whatsoever to do with anything related to bigfoot discussions or even this section of the forum.

bf2006 conducted himself very admirably and was treated with respect, as was Hairyman.

You have a hard time remaining civil to people, just like Beckjord, Burgstahler, and Creekfreak.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 5th April 2008, 12:03 PM   #358
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
MOTS' new job at a museum of natural history -

The Labels

Pimply Intern: Sir, the transfer shipment has just arrived. Would you like me to assist with the inventory?

MOTS: Yes, thank you. Let's get started.

PI: OK. Ummm... here is the oak Haida bowl with the beaver relief.

M: Buck-tooth bigfoot bowl... check.

PI: And this I think was the Salish bowl of cedarwood with a moon figure on the side from Seattle.

M: Cedar Salish Sasquatch Saucer from Seattle... check.

PI: Iroquois ceremonial flute...

M: Call blaster... check.

PI:Sir, I think...

M: *starts snarling, growling, roaring, and teeth-gnashing*

PI: Sir?

M: Do you hear that sound, boy?

PI: I'm afraid I...

M: That, my young intern friend, is The Boss of the Woods and he is coming for you! *starts howling*

PI: Sir, I think I've got to...

M: Kid, you got zits, is what you got. Me? I got CHASED!

PI: *runs*
I apoligize, but I haven't received my super deluxe, official PGF, Hello Kitty 3D Xray glasses yet. Can someone decipher this for me?
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Old 5th April 2008, 12:06 PM   #359
kitakaze
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Originally Posted by manofthesea View Post
I'll learn about the real bigfoot,
Which bigfoot? There's so many kinds. It's hard to keep up.
__________________
Until better evidence is provided, the best solution to the PGF is that it is a man in a suit. -Astrophotographer.

2 prints, 1 trackway, same 'dermals'? 'Unfortunately no' says Meldrum.

I want to see bigfoot throw a pig... Is that wrong? -LTC8K6
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Old 5th April 2008, 12:09 PM   #360
manofthesea
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Originally Posted by Correa Neto View Post
"Learn about real bigfoot"

Are there any?

The invisible ones? Those who live everywhere yet nowhere?
Bravo! This coming from a UFO believing, Atlantaean worshippher. I noticed in the Religion forum that you stated Kennewick Man predated Clovis. That is straight out of the 'Atlantis' believers handbook.

Woo hoo!

Hang around amigo, I have some special pictures just for you.

Last edited by manofthesea; 5th April 2008 at 12:13 PM.
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