ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags past life memories , reincarnation

Reply
Old 9th September 2017, 07:03 PM   #81
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
In that case, to even start the discussion, you need to define your terms. What exactly do you mean by reincarnated, and what exactly is being reincarnated? Before even pondering evidence, you need to be clear on what you are trying to support.
By reincarnated I mean that there's a connection between the person the current person remembers being and their current self wherein the memories of the memories of the former are had by the latter.

By being reincarnated I mean the memories of the previous person show up in someone else. (I know that this is where they usually say awareness is transferred from one body to another, but let's stick with memories)
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:13 PM   #82
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,316
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
By reincarnated I mean that there's a connection between the person the current person remembers being and their current self wherein the memories of the memories of the former are had by the latter.

By being reincarnated I mean the memories of the previous person show up in someone else. (I know that this is where they usually say awareness is transferred from one body to another, but let's stick with memories)
That is not how memory works, I'd urge you to look into that first.
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
----------------------------------------------
“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens-
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:17 PM   #83
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,435
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I am looking to defend reincarnation. I will start by objecting to various claims of skeptics;

- In cases of children who remember past lives where people claim the parents lie about it while getting their children to play along; Some people don't go public about their child's comments that indicate a probable past life and instead just tell friends and family members, which, I believe, removes the incentive for monetary gain and therefore of a reason to lie.

- In the case of the argument that the world population has grown from millions to billions and that there would be no new souls to occupy the new bodies, I argue that there could be a vast amount of souls, much more vast than is currently incarnate that are disincarnate.

- In the case of the claim that children who remember past lives simply got their memories from a mundane source rather than a supernatural one and simply forgot where it came from and interpreted it as a past life memory (part of a phenomenon called cryptomnesia) I argue that there are some cases where there is hardly any means to gain the memories (which are sometimes later verified) which they claim to be the memory of a past life due to the obscurity and remoteness in time and space in some cases of the people they claimed to be.
Sorry, I already debated this in a prior life. I vaguely remember it was with someone named, oh, I see a J an A, and some sort of pizza chain maybe but I can't quite recall. In any case I do remember winning.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:22 PM   #84
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Ray Brady View Post
This argument is predicated on the notion that the potential for monetary gain is the primary reason to lie. Children lie ALL THE TIME, and it's almost never because they're looking for a payday.

When I lied as a child, it was almost invariably because the lie was simply more interesting than the truth.
Yes, the children may lie because it's just more interesting than the truth, but when the claims the children make are researched and verified that would probably mean one or both of the following things; The children got lucky in their lies, and/or they knew about the truth of the claims before they reported them. I think when a child gets multiple obscure lies/claims (often sometimes 20 or more) correct about a persons life, that chance is not to blame (although that may be a bias on my part, I think chance is not likely). Also, if the child did learn about the truth of the claims before they told someone; 1. It is unlikely that children would research or could competently research (often at ages 3 - 8) a person as obscure as some of the cases there are. 2) Would conceive or even want to do something such as that. 3) In the case of getting the information from a mundane source (television, magazine, conversation) that someone as obscure as some of the people who children claim to have been would be mentioned in some of these. Of course, that is just likelihood, but I believe that if someone looked the evidence reasonably (not saying you aren't) they would perhaps give more credence to it.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:24 PM   #85
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
That is not how memory works, I'd urge you to look into that first.
If you do not mind, could you point me toward something?
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:25 PM   #86
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
You have another thread about astral projection. How would you tell reincarnation from astral projection through time? (Not that I believe in either one.)
I'm sorry could you explain? I don't what you mean by "through time"?
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:25 PM   #87
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,435
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Can you explain why I can't use them to justify my belief in reincarnation if I can't prove them? Sorry, I'm a bit of a dummy.
Simply put if you can't prove the first step required for a proof of reincarnation then you can't prove (justify) reincarnation. Souls are generally defined as entities separate from our physical bodies that represent our metaphysical selves, our senses of identity. Souls are shorthand for what most believers in reincarnation propose are the things that are reincarnated. Are you proposing somehow that our memories are passed on but not any sense of identity or any "self? "
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:28 PM   #88
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Okay how does reincarnation work then?
By reincarnated I mean that there's a connection between the person the current person remembers being and their current self wherein the memories of the memories of the former are had by the latter.

By being reincarnated I mean the memories of the previous person show up in someone else. (I know that this is where they usually say awareness is transferred from one body to another, but let's stick with memories)
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:37 PM   #89
Nay_Sayer
I say nay!
 
Nay_Sayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 3,316
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
If you do not mind, could you point me toward something?

Certainly.

http://www.human-memory.net/intro_study.html
__________________
I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds.
----------------------------------------------
Proud woo denier
----------------------------------------------
“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” -Christopher Hitchens-
Nay_Sayer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:49 PM   #90
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,700
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I think I will give looking for a case a shot, but if I do not find a convincing one I may not post.
This seems like a bad start. If you don't have even a single convincing case, what do you presume to defend?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 07:59 PM   #91
Pope130
Master Poster
 
Pope130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,566
It seems that you are now asking about transmigration of memories, rather than reincarnation. Different alleged phenomena, with, presumably, a different mechanism.

There is, however, no reason to try to work out how this works until it can be shown that it does work. First demonstrate the persistence of memory, then work on the explanation. Otherwise you're just counting angels on the head of a pin.
Pope130 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:00 PM   #92
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems like a bad start. If you don't have even a single convincing case, what do you presume to defend?
I will look for a case, but what I wanted to happen was someone lend their thoughts about the points made in the initial post.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:09 PM   #93
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,542
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I will look for a case, but what I wanted to happen was someone lend their thoughts about the points made in the initial post.
Present evidence for your claims is my thought.

I'll wait over here.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:09 PM   #94
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
It seems that you are now asking about transmigration of memories, rather than reincarnation. Different alleged phenomena, with, presumably, a different mechanism.

There is, however, no reason to try to work out how this works until it can be shown that it does work. First demonstrate the persistence of memory, then work on the explanation. Otherwise you're just counting angels on the head of a pin.
I believe it is easier to make an argument for the persistence of memories than the mechanism by which the awareness that those memories are housed in transfers from body to body and how could we observe observe a soul leaving, existing apart from and then going to another body? There doesn't seem to be any obvious way.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:09 PM   #95
fromdownunder
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,724
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I will look for a case, but what I wanted to happen was someone lend their thoughts about the points made in the initial post.
You now seem to be saying that you posted the OP without having a clue as to what you are trying (and I use the word advisedly) to discuss.

If you did not have a clue what you were trying to discuss and will NOW start looking for evidence, did you even have a point?

Norm
__________________
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain


fromdownunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:11 PM   #96
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Present evidence for your claims is my thought.

I'll wait over here.
I'll get evidence. But just out of curiosity why not comment on the points of the initial post?
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:21 PM   #97
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,542
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I'll get evidence. But just out of curiosity why not comment on the points of the initial post?
The "points" you think you made in your initial post are ambiguous, and lack context. Perhaps you might construct a coherent hypothesis in concrete language.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:23 PM   #98
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
You now seem to be saying that you posted the OP without having a clue as to what you are trying (and I use the word advisedly) to discuss.

If you did not have a clue what you were trying to discuss and will NOW start looking for evidence, did you even have a point?

Norm
I had an idea of what I wanted this thread to be, I would post those various points above and someone would point out the problems with it and it would continue from there. Here's an example of what I mean with the first point;

Me: In cases of children who remember past lives where people claim the parents lie about it while getting their children to play along; Some people don't go public about their child's comments that indicate a probable past life and instead just tell friends and family members, which, I believe, removes the incentive for monetary gain and therefore of a reason to lie.

Other Poster: People could still lie without wanting to gain financially, people just lie for fun sometimes, and kids especially like to make things up.

Me: But what kid would think to lie about something such as this? This is not something a kid would be likely to think up.

Other Poster: You don't know that kids have very lively imaginations, I had a niece who once thought she used to be a frog.

And so on.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:25 PM   #99
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
The "points" you think you made in your initial post are ambiguous, and lack context. Perhaps you might construct a coherent hypothesis in concrete language.
Why a hypothesis?
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:26 PM   #100
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
The "points" you think you made in your initial post are ambiguous, and lack context. Perhaps you might construct a coherent hypothesis in concrete language.
How would the hypothesis work?
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:30 PM   #101
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,542
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Why a hypothesis?
Because this:
Quote:
hy·poth·e·sis
/hīˈpäTHəsəs/
noun
noun: hypothesis; plural noun: hypotheses
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
How can we discuss your ideas about reincarnation if we don't know what you mean by such a thing?
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:33 PM   #102
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Simply put if you can't prove the first step required for a proof of reincarnation then you can't prove (justify) reincarnation. Souls are generally defined as entities separate from our physical bodies that represent our metaphysical selves, our senses of identity. Souls are shorthand for what most believers in reincarnation propose are the things that are reincarnated. Are you proposing somehow that our memories are passed on but not any sense of identity or any "self? "
Well, I'm not necessarily trying to prove that souls transfer from body to body. I'm trying to show that someone's memories are actually the memories of another person. If you proved that the memories of one person are the memories of another then you could prove that that's the case, you could do that without talking about a soul.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:34 PM   #103
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Because this:


How can we discuss your ideas about reincarnation if we don't know what you mean by such a thing?
My definition of reincarnation is the standard definition.

Give me your definition of reincarnation.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:45 PM   #104
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,542
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
My definition of reincarnation is the standard definition.

Give me your definition of reincarnation.
What do you mean by "standard" definition? This is your claim we're examining here.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:46 PM   #105
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
What do you mean by "standard" definition? This is your claim we're examining here.
The definition you find in the dictionary.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 08:55 PM   #106
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,542
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
The definition you find in the dictionary.
Until you iterate exactly what you mean by reincarnation, using concrete language, I don't see how we can proceed. Further, you must provide some sort of objective evidence for examination. This is the minimum for a productive discussion.


More difficult that you thought it'd be, huh?
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 09:18 PM   #107
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,362
Hitchens' Razor: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 09:22 PM   #108
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,700
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I had an idea of what I wanted this thread to be, I would post those various points above and someone would point out the problems with it and it would continue from there. Here's an example of what I mean with the first point;

Me: In cases of children who remember past lives where people claim the parents lie about it while getting their children to play along; Some people don't go public about their child's comments that indicate a probable past life and instead just tell friends and family members, which, I believe, removes the incentive for monetary gain and therefore of a reason to lie.

Other Poster: People could still lie without wanting to gain financially, people just lie for fun sometimes, and kids especially like to make things up.

Me: But what kid would think to lie about something such as this? This is not something a kid would be likely to think up.

Other Poster: You don't know that kids have very lively imaginations, I had a niece who once thought she used to be a frog.

And so on.
That seems like a pointless and unsatisfying exercise. Why not cut through all the "yes, but", and present actual testable claims?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 09:25 PM   #109
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,700
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
My definition of reincarnation is the standard definition.

Give me your definition of reincarnation.
This is awkward. You don't have any convincing cases of reincarnation. You can't even define reincarnation. What, exactly, makes you think you can defend an idea you can't define and can't give examples of?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 09:25 PM   #110
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,362
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
My argument for the existence of souls are those cases of children who remember past lives and who; A) Along with their parents have not gone public with their cases but have kept it to a few family members and friends and B) Claim to have been someone so obscure there is hardly any way of learning about them but through effort.
So the evidence of past lives are people who have never talked about it publicly, or have, but can provide no evidence of it.

There is another thread here that asks what distinguishes woo-woo beliefs. Yours is a perfect example. Can you think of any circumstances or evidence that would falsify reincarnation in your world?

Cripes! Get you some critical think skills!!
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 09:35 PM   #111
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,501
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Well, I'm not necessarily trying to prove that souls transfer from body to body. I'm trying to show that someone's memories are actually the memories of another person. If you proved that the memories of one person are the memories of another then you could prove that that's the case, you could do that without talking about a soul.
I think what other posters are trying to get across to you is that the notion of a soul is actually a lot more nebulous and ill defined than it might at first appear, and likewise the notion of reincarnation.

But the idea of first showing that person B has memories that previously belonged to person A who is now dead is, I think, the right way to start a process that might eventually result in meaningful definitions of, and evidence for, both those things.

But the evidence would need to be compelling and unambiguous. As you seem to recognise in your OP, that is not currently the case.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:07 PM   #112
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is awkward. You don't have any convincing cases of reincarnation. You can't even define reincarnation. What, exactly, makes you think you can defend an idea you can't define and can't give examples of?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
Was the definition of reincarnation I gave earlier not sufficient?

By reincarnated I mean that there's a connection between the person the current person remembers being and their current self wherein the memories of the memories of the former are had by the latter.

By being reincarnated I mean the memories of the previous person show up in someone else. (I know that this is where they usually say awareness is transferred from one body to another, but let's stick with memories)
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:18 PM   #113
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
So the evidence of past lives are people who have never talked about it publicly, or have, but can provide no evidence of it.

There is another thread here that asks what distinguishes woo-woo beliefs. Yours is a perfect example. Can you think of any circumstances or evidence that would falsify reincarnation in your world?

Cripes! Get you some critical think skills!!
I tried and can not think of what would falsify reincarnation, for me the "evidence" would have to be explained away, so far I have found none of the things meant to explain it away convincing.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:21 PM   #114
SusanB-M1
Incurable Optimist
 
SusanB-M1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,424
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
My argument for the existence of souls are those cases of children who remember past lives and who; A) Along with their parents have not gone public with their cases but have kept it to a few family members and friends and B) Claim to have been someone so obscure there is hardly any way of learning about them but through effort.
I offer the point I usually make on reincarnation threads: Remember that a child, by the time he or she is able to articulate clearly his or her thoughts, has had several years of observations through all five senses which his or her mind has been absorbing retaining, re-arranging, etc. Any interpretation, or far morelikely, mis-interpretation, by adults of whatever the child says is their responsibility.
SusanB-M1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:25 PM   #115
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That seems like a pointless and unsatisfying exercise. Why not cut through all the "yes, but", and present actual testable claims?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
If by testable claims you mean cases of reincarnation, I'll try to get to that soon.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:28 PM   #116
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
I offer the point I usually make on reincarnation threads: Remember that a child, by the time he or she is able to articulate clearly his or her thoughts, has had several years of observations through all five senses which his or her mind has been absorbing retaining, re-arranging, etc. Any interpretation, or far morelikely, mis-interpretation, by adults of whatever the child says is their responsibility.
Then wouldn't more children report past lives, if they all experienced adults talking and absorbed and rearranged the information?
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:31 PM   #117
SusanB-M1
Incurable Optimist
 
SusanB-M1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,424
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Then wouldn't more children report past lives, if they all experienced adults talking and absorbed and rearranged the information?
If they did, one can only hope that the adults around them would interpret them correctly!
SusanB-M1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:31 PM   #118
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,501
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I tried and can not think of what would falsify reincarnation, for me the "evidence" would have to be explained away, so far I have found none of the things meant to explain it away convincing.
The scientific approach is the other way round: the default assumption is that a supernatural phenomenon like reincarnation does not exist until and unless compelling evidence is produced to support it. As long as there are alternative mundane explanations that adequately account for any evidence that does exist there is no justification for invoking the supernatural.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:39 PM   #119
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,327
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I think I will give looking for a case a shot, but if I do not find a convincing one I may not post.

How about the ones you mentioned in post #6?
Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
My position is that the cases people dismiss are actually not that bad when you look at them closely.

How did you know about these cases of you hadn't actually found any?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2017, 10:44 PM   #120
Wonder234
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The scientific approach is the other way round: the default assumption is that a supernatural phenomenon like reincarnation does not exist until and unless compelling evidence is produced to support it. As long as there are alternative mundane explanations that adequately account for any evidence that does exist there is no justification for invoking the supernatural.
I don't know how I became convinced that reincarnation is real, but once you're convinced, and I do not believe you control being convinced, it is a matter of doubting what you believe.
Wonder234 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.