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Tags astral projection , remote viewing

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Old 9th September 2017, 04:11 PM   #1
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Astral Projection - Verification?

Would someone accurately reporting a series of digits after "seeing them" "out of body" prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body?
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Old 9th September 2017, 04:14 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Would someone accurately reporting a series of digits after "seeing them" "out of body" prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body?
No!

/Thread
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Old 9th September 2017, 04:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Would someone accurately reporting a series of digits after "seeing them" "out of body" prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body?
It depends entirely on how the "experiment" is "controlled". What's the protocol involved?
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Old 9th September 2017, 04:44 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Would someone accurately reporting a series of digits after "seeing them" "out of body" prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body?
Them just reporting they'd done that? No.
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Old 9th September 2017, 04:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
No!

/Thread
Can you explain why you think that?
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Old 9th September 2017, 04:59 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It depends entirely on how the "experiment" is "controlled". What's the protocol involved?
I do not have much knowledge about how science is carried out so I might not be able to answer that to your satisfaction.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:03 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I do not have much knowledge about how science is carried out so I might not be able to answer that to your satisfaction.
It's not particularly difficult to understand. All you really have to do is eliminate the possibility that the person either had a lucky guess, or is actively cheating.

So let's start with the basics - how many digits did this person accurately report?
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Them just reporting they'd done that? No.
Say the person "sees" the numbers in one room while "out of body" while their physical body is in another room. The researchers would be in the room with the persons body and when the person "comes back" the person reports the numbers without having left the room before reporting or without going into the room while in body with the number in it after the number has been placed.

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Old 9th September 2017, 05:09 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's not particularly difficult to understand. All you really have to do is eliminate the possibility that the person either had a lucky guess, or is actively cheating.

So let's start with the basics - how many digits did this person accurately report?
Five digits.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Five digits.
Who picked which digits they were, and how were they concealed from the subject?
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:17 PM   #11
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Why do you ask this? Does someone claim this happened to your knowledge, or is this a random musing?
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Who picked which digits they were, and how were they concealed from the subject?
A team of researchers can pick the numbers and before the subject who has the out of body experience enters the building they place the numbers in a closed room, and they monitor that person as they make their way to the separate room from which they will "leave" their body all while someone watches them in that room the whole time from when they come in to when they "leave" their body and come back and report the number.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Why do you ask this? Does someone claim this happened to your knowledge, or is this a random musing?
Random musing.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:30 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Say the person "sees" the numbers in one room while "out of body" while their physical body is in another room. The researchers would be in the room with the persons body and when the person "comes back" the person reports the numbers without having left the room before reporting or without going into the room while in body with the number in it after the number has been placed.
This one is fairly easy to test. Buttonhole the nearest Astral Projectionist, put them in a room laying on a couch blindfolded.

Have a friend go into the next room, and write down a series of five numbers. Give your Astral Projectionist five minutes, then ask him/her to write down the numbers.

Bring your friend into the room and compare the two bits of paper. (And, preferably, film the entire thing in both rooms). Get back to us with the results.

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Old 9th September 2017, 05:35 PM   #15
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I wouldn't restrict them to reading numbers, as they could claim that they lack sufficient control in that state to focus on a small detail or whatever. Eliminating the possibility of confederates or other magicians' tricks, you could accept almost anything unique as a proof.

Of course, astral projection would have to be a real thing first. Happened to me twice and I am stone cold convinced that they are very vivid hallucinations, like lucid dreaming.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:38 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
This one is fairly easy to test. Buttonhole the nearest Astral Projectionist, put them in a room laying on a couch blindfolded.

Have a friend go into the next room, and write down a series of five numbers. Give your Astral Projectionist five minutes, then ask him/her to write down the numbers.

Bring your friend into the room and compare the two bits of paper. (And, preferably, film the entire thing in both rooms). Get back to us with the results.

Norm
Doesn't sound that hard
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
A team of researchers can pick the numbers and before the subject who has the out of body experience enters the building they place the numbers in a closed room, and they monitor that person as they make their way to the separate room from which they will "leave" their body all while someone watches them in that room the whole time from when they come in to when they "leave" their body and come back and report the number.
Ah, so this is not something that actually happened then. It's something that you would like to happen.

That's okay. We can work with you to develop a good protocol for such a demonstration. In the case of your suggestion, I believe that there may be an opportunity for someone on the team of researches to give cues to the subject, which would be cheating.

Rather than a team of researchers, I propose that the numbers be picked by a single person, who then plays no additional role in the demonstration. The person writes the numbers down and leaves them in a sealed envelope on a table in an otherwise empty room, then departs the location - preferably the building - and does not return until the test is over. No other person is to enter the room containing the envelope until the demonstration is over. That way, there is no chance for anyone present at the test to know what the numbers are until the envelope is unsealed.

A sequence of 5 digits yields a 1/1,000,000 chance of guessing by chance alone, which is an acceptable preliminary demonstration, but to be absolutely sure you should expand to 6 or more digits. After all, if remote viewing is real, it should be no more difficult to perceive 6 digits than 5.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:40 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I wouldn't restrict them to reading numbers, as they could claim that they lack sufficient control in that state to focus on a small detail or whatever. Eliminating the possibility of confederates or other magicians' tricks, you could accept almost anything unique as a proof.

Of course, astral projection would have to be a real thing first. Happened to me twice and I am stone cold convinced that they are very vivid hallucinations, like lucid dreaming.
Yes, maybe you could have a big picture of something or big numbers.

Also, have you considered other people who are convinced they are not hallucinations?
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:43 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
A sequence of 5 digits yields a 1/1,000,000 chance of guessing by chance alone, which is an acceptable preliminary demonstration, but to be absolutely sure you should expand to 6 or more digits.
1/100,000.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Ah, so this is not something that actually happened then. It's something that you would like to happen.

That's okay. We can work with you to develop a good protocol for such a demonstration. In the case of your suggestion, I believe that there may be an opportunity for someone on the team of researches to give cues to the subject, which would be cheating.

Rather than a team of researchers, I propose that the numbers be picked by a single person, who then plays no additional role in the demonstration. The person writes the numbers down and leaves them in a sealed envelope on a table in an otherwise empty room, then departs the location - preferably the building - and does not return until the test is over. No other person is to enter the room containing the envelope until the demonstration is over. That way, there is no chance for anyone present at the test to know what the numbers are until the envelope is unsealed.

A sequence of 5 digits yields a 1/1,000,000 chance of guessing by chance alone, which is an acceptable preliminary demonstration, but to be absolutely sure you should expand to 6 or more digits. After all, if remote viewing is real, it should be no more difficult to perceive 6 digits than 5.
I agree both with your thinking behind having one person write it and why not 6 digits? But maybe make them big so it can be seen easily, the out of body state could be hard to control.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:49 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Yes, maybe you could have a big picture of something or big numbers.

Also, have you considered other people who are convinced they are not hallucinations?
Sure, but the descriptions I have read are so remarkably similar to mine that I am confident that it is the same phenomenon. Others who believe this is real have the floor for performance and to collect a cool mil USD, if that deal still stands.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:53 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
1/100,000.
With an amount of 6 digits and and 9 digits that could be in the place of those 6 spots would be 9 to the power of 6 which has 53,1441 combinations.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I agree both with your thinking behind having one person write it and why not 6 digits? But maybe make them big so it can be seen easily, the out of body state could be hard to control.
Yes, we can make the digits as big as the subject wants. The important thing is that nobody who is participating in the demonstration knows what the digits are.

And thanks for the correction RecoveringYuppy. I've always had trouble with probability.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Sure, but the descriptions I have read are so remarkably similar to mine that I am confident that it is the same phenomenon. Others who believe this is real have the floor for performance and to collect a cool mil USD, if that deal still stands.
Yeah, I've heard it can seem like a hallucination at times, I guess I'd have to experience it for myself and see what I thought.
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes, we can make the digits as big as the subject wants. The important thing is that nobody who is participating in the demonstration knows what the digits are.

And thanks for the correction RecoveringYuppy. I've always had trouble with probability.
Is there anything else that would need to be in place? And if that's all what would you say of the results of the experiment if it were successful?
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Old 9th September 2017, 05:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
With an amount of 6 digits and and 9 digits that could be in the place of those 6 spots would be 9 to the power of 6 which has 53,1441 combinations.
Uh, why use base 9?
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Old 9th September 2017, 06:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Is there anything else that would need to be in place? And if that's all what would you say of the results of the experiment if it were successful?
If such a test were successful - ie, that the subject correctly identified all six digits - then that would be an interesting result that would be worthy of further investigation.

I'll tell you now that this demonstration - and ones very similar - have been tried many, many times, and no-one has ever succeeded. So if someone finally did, that would be very exciting.
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Old 9th September 2017, 06:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Random musing.
Out of interest, have you ever met anyone who claimed to be able to "do" Astral Projection, and what evidence did they provide?

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Old 9th September 2017, 06:25 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Say the person "sees" the numbers in one room while "out of body" while their physical body is in another room. The researchers would be in the room with the persons body and when the person "comes back" the person reports the numbers without having left the room before reporting or without going into the room while in body with the number in it after the number has been placed.
Then provide your evidence that this has been done. It is rather futile for us to discuss verification for something that so far you haven't demonstrated has happened.
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Old 9th September 2017, 06:27 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Is there anything else that would need to be in place? And if that's all what would you say of the results of the experiment if it were successful?

How about there be a successful trial before we worry about the implications?
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Uh, why use base 9?
Because there are 9 digits.
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:35 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then provide your evidence that this has been done. It is rather futile for us to discuss verification for something that so far you haven't demonstrated has happened.
I was not trying to prove that consciousness can exist independently of the body. I was trying to find out whether if there was such an experiment as the one I've talked about here, would it's "success" be enough to prove that it is possible for consciousness to exist independently of the body. Just knowing that it would prove it was possible is exciting to me. I kind of know it wouldn't be able prove the existence of a disembodied consciousness, I wanted to know what others think.
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:39 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
Because there are 9 digits.
Why not the usual ten digits??
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:41 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Out of interest, have you ever met anyone who claimed to be able to "do" Astral Projection, and what evidence did they provide?

Norm
I have met someone who claimed to be able to astral project. I didn't ask for evidence when we talked about it, but he gave me an anecdote. I do not remember the anecdote exactly or entirely, but he claimed to be able to see some kind of bright, shimmering, fluctuating lines surrounding a crying girls head while out of body.
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:42 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why not the usual ten digits??
Oops, yeah, you're right... that was a mistake on my part.
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:45 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
How about there be a successful trial before we worry about the implications?
I think of wanting to wait for a trial first and not wait for a trial as a preference, I just wanted to know if it would prove anything. And shouldn't you know if it would prove anything before you do the experiment?
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If such a test were successful - ie, that the subject correctly identified all six digits - then that would be an interesting result that would be worthy of further investigation.

I'll tell you now that this demonstration - and ones very similar - have been tried many, many times, and no-one has ever succeeded. So if someone finally did, that would be very exciting.
Then I wonder if an experiment like this can succeed what makes or breaks them.
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Old 9th September 2017, 07:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I have met someone who claimed to be able to astral project. I didn't ask for evidence when we talked about it, but he gave me an anecdote. I do not remember the anecdote exactly or entirely, but he claimed to be able to see some kind of bright, shimmering, fluctuating lines surrounding a crying girls head while out of body.
How convincing that sounds. I am suddenly a true believer. Why has your Astral Projection friend not won a Nobel Prize and on a world circuit tour making $Millions for his incredible discovery!

Oh wait, it's an anecdote and you can't remember the details. I take the above back. Do a test - you have several suggestions here already as to how to go about a preliminary test, so go for it.

But, naturally, you will back out of any sort of test, because you are just making stuff up.

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Old 9th September 2017, 08:41 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
How convincing that sounds. I am suddenly a true believer. Why has your Astral Projection friend not won a Nobel Prize and on a world circuit tour making $Millions for his incredible discovery!

Oh wait, it's an anecdote and you can't remember the details. I take the above back. Do a test - you have several suggestions here already as to how to go about a preliminary test, so go for it.

But, naturally, you will back out of any sort of test, because you are just making stuff up.

Norm
I did not use his anecdote as evidence. What do you mean I am making stuff up?
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Old 9th September 2017, 09:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Wonder234 View Post
I did not use his anecdote as evidence. What do you mean I am making stuff up?
Because you have already agreed that your OP was "random musing" and have offered nothing else which we can actually discuss. You have offered nothing as evidence, ergo, you are just making stuff up including your anecdote about a so-called Astral Projector.

Just do a test - you have been given several protocols, so it should as you said yourself in an earlier post " Doesn't sound that hard"

Just do it. and satisfy yourself, then post the evidence here. It does not sound that hard because it is not that hard.

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