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Old 10th August 2016, 08:12 AM   #1
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Example: "Raiders of the Lost Ark"

Which of the world's known governments (did or would do) today or historically is/was likely to be sending, or have sent, their forces out across the world looking for old stuff whether on land (like antartica) or underwater?

Such as govt forces looking for old stuff mythical or not across world.

As seen in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", for example.

What do historians have to share on this?
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Old 10th August 2016, 08:14 AM   #2
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Are there any unknown governments?
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Old 10th August 2016, 08:19 AM   #3
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Old 10th August 2016, 08:20 AM   #4
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According to various cranks the NWO, Da Joos, Rothschilds, or the Illuminati, etc. might be unknown governments.

As to the OP - governments sponsor archeologists all the time. And sometimes governments are the beneficiaries of treasures obtained by private collectors. But as to whether they are doing so in order to obtain priceless objects of spiritual importance or power, I think we can say - "no".
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Old 10th August 2016, 08:29 AM   #5
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Is there any substantiation to the common SF trope that Hitler was a bit of an occultist and tried to conjure up some magic superweapon in the failing days of WW2?

He did have his fingers in a lot of pies at the time, so I guess it's possible that some of them were digging for woo.
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Old 10th August 2016, 09:18 AM   #6
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_occultism

Summary: The idea is prominent in fiction and in popular but under-researched books and documentaries propounding sensationalist notions. In short: no.
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Old 10th August 2016, 09:47 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Are there any unknown governments?


a) No.

or

b) I dont know.


Choose wisely
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Old 10th August 2016, 09:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Which of the world's known governments (did or would do) today or historically is/was likely to be sending, or have sent, their forces out across the world looking for old stuff whether on land (like antartica) or underwater?

Such as govt forces looking for old stuff mythical or not across world.

As seen in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", for example.

What do historians have to share on this?
I know of several secret governments that have done such things.

Send me $100.00 and I will tell you all of the details.
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Old 10th August 2016, 10:01 AM   #9
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Evidently Scotsman Lewis Spence, my favorite 20th-century occult author, first propounded the notion of Nazi occult obsession in 1940. People have been scrambling to find evidence for it ever since, but it appears to be largely circumstantial and exaggerated.
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Old 10th August 2016, 10:18 AM   #10
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Then there's the expeditions sent off looking for El Dorado, and all the effort that went into finding Egyptian tombs after that. No mysticism there; just greed.
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Old 10th August 2016, 10:30 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I know of several secret governments that have done such things.

Send me $100.00 and I will tell you all of the details.
Its worth more. Dont give it away for peanuts. I'll give you 10x that
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Old 10th August 2016, 11:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_occultism

Summary: The idea is prominent in fiction and in popular but under-researched books and documentaries propounding sensationalist notions. In short: no.
I disagree. Himmler was very high on occultism. His organization Ahnenerbe sent out numerous expeditions, especially to search for the origins of the Aryans.
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Old 10th August 2016, 12:02 PM   #13
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It's not hard to link the Nazis to occult stuff, given that Himmler was a bit obsessed with Norse mythology and even had stuff like the black sun symbol on the floor of the Wewelsburg castle / SS HQ.

To come back to the OP question, Himmler was also obsessed with archaeology to prove the superiority of the Aryan race. Well, Hitler was for it too, but Himmler took the obsession to such extremes that eventually Hitler himself called him out on it.

At any rate, the most prominent archaeological organization was Ahnenerbe (literally, "ancestor inheritance"). Which did send expeditions to such places outside the Reich's borders as Sweden, Bolivia, Tibet and the middle east. They also sent a (failed) commando mission to seize a manuscript by Tacitus from Italy, after Italy surrendered to the Allies.

So, yes, they did send archaeological expeditions all over the place.

Mind you, as you'd expect from ideological fanatics, there was a LOT of pseudo-science and pseudo-history involved. E.g., the expeditions to the middle east tried to prove that the crisis cycle and power struggle in the classic age in the Roman empire were some ancestral struggle between the germanic Romans and the semitic populations in the East. E.g., in Tibet they were less concerned with actual archaeology and more with measuring hundreds of skulls to prove that the aryans in the past were smarter than the other populations there. Etc.

But nevertheless, they did send the expeditions. For questionable science, but they sent them.

They were also fairly obsessed with anything related to judeo-xianity. Mostly the judeo part, but the SS was more fond of norse neo-paganism than of xianity too. They obsessed over such artifacts as the (probably fake, as it resembles a nordic hewing spear more than a greco-roman lance) Holy Lance in the Vienna museum.

IF there had actually been a believable clue to the location of the holy ark, I think it's not too unbelievable that the Nazis could have sent an expedition there too.
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Old 10th August 2016, 12:03 PM   #14
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Dang, I see DDT beat me to it again. That's what I get for taking ages to write a long message
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Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
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Old 10th August 2016, 12:09 PM   #15
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Wewelsburg was odd.
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Old 10th August 2016, 12:14 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Which of the world's known governments (did or would do) today or historically is/was likely to be sending, or have sent, their forces out across the world looking for old stuff whether on land (like antartica) or underwater?

Such as govt forces looking for old stuff mythical or not across world.

As seen in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", for example.

That's item 23, for 20 points.
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Old 10th August 2016, 12:58 PM   #17
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Please, please, please don't do this to me. I'm beginning to lose my faith in the History Channel.
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Old 10th August 2016, 01:03 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
a) No.

or

b) I dont know.


Choose wisely
I can imagine unknown forces within a government, but aside, perhaps, from the king of the fairies, what would an unknown government govern?
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Old 10th August 2016, 01:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Its worth more. Dont give it away for peanuts. I'll give you 10x that
Then I want in on the deal, too.

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Old 10th August 2016, 01:20 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I disagree. Himmler was very high on occultism. His organization Ahnenerbe sent out numerous expeditions, especially to search for the origins of the Aryans.


Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
It's not hard to link the Nazis to occult stuff, given that Himmler was a bit obsessed with Norse mythology and even had stuff like the black sun symbol on the floor of the Wewelsburg castle / SS HQ.

To come back to the OP question, Himmler was also obsessed with archaeology to prove the superiority of the Aryan race. Well, Hitler was for it too, but Himmler took the obsession to such extremes that eventually Hitler himself called him out on it.

At any rate, the most prominent archaeological organization was Ahnenerbe (literally, "ancestor inheritance"). Which did send expeditions to such places outside the Reich's borders as Sweden, Bolivia, Tibet and the middle east. They also sent a (failed) commando mission to seize a manuscript by Tacitus from Italy, after Italy surrendered to the Allies.

So, yes, they did send archaeological expeditions all over the place.

Mind you, as you'd expect from ideological fanatics, there was a LOT of pseudo-science and pseudo-history involved. E.g., the expeditions to the middle east tried to prove that the crisis cycle and power struggle in the classic age in the Roman empire were some ancestral struggle between the germanic Romans and the semitic populations in the East. E.g., in Tibet they were less concerned with actual archaeology and more with measuring hundreds of skulls to prove that the aryans in the past were smarter than the other populations there. Etc.

But nevertheless, they did send the expeditions. For questionable science, but they sent them.

They were also fairly obsessed with anything related to judeo-xianity. Mostly the judeo part, but the SS was more fond of norse neo-paganism than of xianity too. They obsessed over such artifacts as the (probably fake, as it resembles a nordic hewing spear more than a greco-roman lance) Holy Lance in the Vienna museum.

IF there had actually been a believable clue to the location of the holy ark, I think it's not too unbelievable that the Nazis could have sent an expedition there too.



Yes. Serious answers. Cool. Refreshing. Thanks.

.
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Old 10th August 2016, 01:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I can imagine unknown forces within a government, but aside, perhaps, from the king of the fairies, what would an unknown government govern?

per your logic...


I'd speculate the (your) unknown/unseen forces within, controlling a government would be able to be controlling whatever it is the visible govt thinks it is governing.

There are many ways by which your imagined unknown forces within a government could hypothetically control people by controlling their visible govt.


BTW when I said in the OP "Which of the world's known governments.." I was thinking something like covert govts could exist within visible ones.


However not necessarily unseen by, or unknown by by the visible govt.

Example:

a) visible govt controlled by blackmail and the governed dont know about it.


b) visible govt unwittingly drugged (or senile)and manipulated by corrupt staff members.

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Old 10th August 2016, 02:39 PM   #22
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For some reason, I am ready for Rudders of the Lost Barque.


Though I could live with Raiders of the Misplaced Caravelle !!!
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Old 10th August 2016, 05:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
For some reason, I am ready for Rudders of the Lost Barque.

IMHO Rutters of the Lost Barque is funner.


just sayin...Rudders was good too

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Old 10th August 2016, 06:16 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
IF there had actually been a believable clue to the location of the holy ark, I think it's not too unbelievable that the Nazis could have sent an expedition there too.
Yes. In that respect, the premise of Spielberg's movie is wholly credible.
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Old 10th August 2016, 06:35 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
Which of the world's known governments (did or would do) today or historically is/was likely to be sending, or have sent, their forces out across the world looking for old stuff whether on land (like antartica) or underwater?

Such as govt forces looking for old stuff mythical or not across world.

As seen in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", for example.

What do historians have to share on this?
Obviously, governments sponsor archaeologists all the time through universities and musea to look for old stuff. And especially in Egypt and the Middle East, lots of European and American archaeologists are working on digs because there's just too much for the local archaeologists to master. (well, the enthusiasm for digging in Syria or Iraq may be temporarily down a notch or two). As a particular example, I'd like to mention UNICEF's "Nubian Campaign" to rescue the various Egyptian antiquities that would be flooded due to the Aswan Dam. Various countries contributed also, one of the rescued temples now stands in the Dutch National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden.

Mostly, that´s not for mythical stuff, with one exception: the subfield known as "Biblical Archaeology". Until 1980 or so, that subfield was solely concerned with proving the Bible right. In other words, archaeologists went in with the assumption that the Bible was historically 100% accurate and they interpreted their finds in that context. That has now for the most part changed, but there are still lots of people in the field who desperately want the Bible to be true. So you get papers that claim there were pottery finds in Nazareth from "the first century AD" when it's clear all that pottery postdates 70AD and nothing was found from Jesus' times - neither pottery nor other signs of habitation.
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Old 10th August 2016, 07:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Obviously, governments sponsor archaeologists all the time through universities and musea to look for old stuff. And especially in Egypt and the Middle East, lots of European and American archaeologists are working on digs because there's just too much for the local archaeologists to master. (well, the enthusiasm for digging in Syria or Iraq may be temporarily down a notch or two). As a particular example, I'd like to mention UNICEF's "Nubian Campaign" to rescue the various Egyptian antiquities that would be flooded due to the Aswan Dam. Various countries contributed also, one of the rescued temples now stands in the Dutch National Museum of Antiquities in Leiden.

Mostly, that´s not for mythical stuff, with one exception: the subfield known as "Biblical Archaeology". Until 1980 or so, that subfield was solely concerned with proving the Bible right. In other words, archaeologists went in with the assumption that the Bible was historically 100% accurate and they interpreted their finds in that context. That has now for the most part changed, but there are still lots of people in the field who desperately want the Bible to be true. So you get papers that claim there were pottery finds in Nazareth from "the first century AD" when it's clear all that pottery postdates 70AD and nothing was found from Jesus' times - neither pottery nor other signs of habitation.



Such a great breath of fresh air....thanks very much.


Still I wonder if interdepartmentally there could be....degrees of shenanigans around pet projects.
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Old 10th August 2016, 08:28 PM   #27
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Most enlightening. Thanks to ddt and HansMustermann for a bit more elucidation than wiki was able to give me on this question.
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Old 10th August 2016, 11:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Mostly, that´s not for mythical stuff, with one exception: the subfield known as "Biblical Archaeology". Until 1980 or so, that subfield was solely concerned with proving the Bible right. In other words, archaeologists went in with the assumption that the Bible was historically 100% accurate and they interpreted their finds in that context. That has now for the most part changed, but there are still lots of people in the field who desperately want the Bible to be true. So you get papers that claim there were pottery finds in Nazareth from "the first century AD" when it's clear all that pottery postdates 70AD and nothing was found from Jesus' times - neither pottery nor other signs of habitation.
Well, what annoys me more are more point-blank claims like "this may well be the house where Jesus lived" when they find one random house. Never even mind that two paragraphs later it has a hiding place from the time of the revolt against Rome, but WTH clue does one have that there's any connection to Jesus?

It's like finding a random house in Solin in Dalmatia and claiming this may well be the house where Diocletian was born. WTH?
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Old 11th August 2016, 12:26 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, what annoys me more are more point-blank claims like "this may well be the house where Jesus lived" when they find one random house. Never even mind that two paragraphs later it has a hiding place from the time of the revolt against Rome, but WTH clue does one have that there's any connection to Jesus?

It's like finding a random house in Solin in Dalmatia and claiming this may well be the house where Diocletian was born. WTH?
That [formerly respectable] Scot archaeologist was horrible at that, and he also employed the ever-popular History Channel/Discovery Channel dodge... "Unfortunately our flights were scheduled for departure but we hope that further exploration will tell us in the future if this was really the Missing Dental Floss Dispenser Of The Last Supper". He did a bunch like that and with "well, the dental floss wasn't here, but there are those crosses in the wall and that article we read in Reader's Digest, so the search will continue...."
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Old 11th August 2016, 01:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, what annoys me more are more point-blank claims like "this may well be the house where Jesus lived" when they find one random house. Never even mind that two paragraphs later it has a hiding place from the time of the revolt against Rome, but WTH clue does one have that there's any connection to Jesus?

It's like finding a random house in Solin in Dalmatia and claiming this may well be the house where Diocletian was born. WTH?
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/d...us-been-found/:
Quote:
The excavation site located beneath the convent has been known since 1880, but it was never professionally excavated until the Nazareth Archaeological Project began its work in 2006. In “Has Jesus’ Nazareth House Been Found?” in the March/April 2015 issue of BAR, Ken Dark, the director of the Nazareth Archaeological Project, not only describes the remains of the home itself, but explores the evidence that suggests that this is the place where Jesus spent his formative years—or at least the place regarded in the Byzantine period as the childhood home of Jesus.
Ken Dark is an archaeology professor from the public university of Reading, UK. Yep, state-sponsored search for mythical stuff.
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Old 11th August 2016, 02:12 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
That [formerly respectable] Scot archaeologist was horrible at that, and he also employed the ever-popular History Channel/Discovery Channel dodge... "Unfortunately our flights were scheduled for departure but we hope that further exploration will tell us in the future if this was really the Missing Dental Floss Dispenser Of The Last Supper". He did a bunch like that and with "well, the dental floss wasn't here, but there are those crosses in the wall and that article we read in Reader's Digest, so the search will continue...."
Like that show eith the guy lookng for evidence of the Knights Templar secret treasure everywhere. Each show starts with 'Is this the link we have been looking for?'
Guess the answer.
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Old 11th August 2016, 02:13 AM   #32
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As for the Ark, isn't it supposed to be in that little church in Ethiopia that no one but the Priest is allowed to enter?
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Old 11th August 2016, 06:28 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Is there any substantiation to the common SF trope that Hitler was a bit of an occultist and tried to conjure up some magic superweapon in the failing days of WW2?

He did have his fingers in a lot of pies at the time, so I guess it's possible that some of them were digging for woo.
No. Hitler had very little belief/interest in the occult, Himmler was the believer.

Much of the whole "Nazi Occult" trope was a fabrication, starting with Lewis Spence’s The Occult Causes of the Present War. This continued after the war, e.g. The Morning of the Magicians and The Spear of Destiny.

Anyway, Hitler was not an occultist, he had little patience for Himmler’s obsessions and condemned them publicly and privately on many occasions. He also did not (despite the nonsense in various books) believe in astrology. Hitler's conceptions of race and history were somewhat mystical but it was an
operatic mysticism.
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Old 11th August 2016, 06:33 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
Evidently Scotsman Lewis Spence, my favorite 20th-century occult author, first propounded the notion of Nazi occult obsession in 1940. People have been scrambling to find evidence for it ever since, but it appears to be largely circumstantial and exaggerated.
Spence was the first to popularise the supposed link, and was used as a propagandist, but he based his claims on Edouard Saby’s Hitler et les Forces Occultes (published in French in 1939) and Hermann Rauschning's Gespräche mit Hitler (aka Hitler Speaks). Both are utter rubbish; Rauschning was a disenchanted conservative German politician and former Nazi ally and Saby was an occultist with fascist leanings.
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Old 11th August 2016, 06:49 AM   #35
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I thought Hitler wanted to weave a modern myth of Germanic knights to replace religion, rather than promote any occult message? It was all about the ideal of the healthy rural worker and virtuous knight?
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Old 11th August 2016, 06:50 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
As for the Ark, isn't it supposed to be in that little church in Ethiopia that no one but the Priest is allowed to enter?
If you believe it to be a small container of prayer tablets, this has been proposed.
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Old 11th August 2016, 06:52 AM   #37
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Can we have this thread renamed "Nazis looking for Atlantis"?

Dave
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Old 11th August 2016, 10:45 AM   #38
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Curses!

I could have conned someone out of their money if were not for those meddleling kids with them thar' facts and logic.
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Old 11th August 2016, 11:34 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I know of several secret governments that have done such things.

Send me $100.00 and I will tell you all of the details.
Will you take a check from The Bank of Brigadoon? It's good once every 100 years and I'm due.
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Old 11th August 2016, 05:08 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Can we have this thread renamed "Nazis looking for Atlantis"?

Dave
Hey, both Nazis and Indiana Jones were looking for Atlantis in the Computer game "Indiana Jones and The Fate Of Atlantis".
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