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Old 12th October 2017, 05:05 PM   #41
Captain_Swoop
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If the spirits aren't supposed to prove they exist how come they appear to people and give them messages?
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:16 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
She told me two facts that I clearly remember, and I am not making it up.
You might even believe this, I don't.
Quote:
Logic dictates she got information about what was going on in my head.
Logic dictates no such thing.*

Quote:
In any case that's only one evidential message I had out of hundreds over thirty years of attending spiritualist churches.
Your anecdote has no evidentiary value.


ETA: *Unless you mean she applied cold reading tactics. Then I agree; she got into your head.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is the matter that the spirit world are not allowed to directly interfere with our free will, and proving they exist would do that.

Well, that's convenient.

How do we test your claim that the spirit world is not allowed to directly interfere with free will?
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Well, that's convenient.

How do we test your claim that the spirit world is not allowed to directly interfere with free will?
You don't, Buuuuuuut if you give them 20$ per hour they can make an exception.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:52 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Not at all, I remember seeing things as a young child, and I never even mentioned it to anyone. I thought it was normal. As for a three year old inventing lies about seeing people as some kind of game I think its too sophisticated for her.

I can tell you that if a child is genuinely psychic, and they are treated as mad it is extremely psychologically damaging to them. I have a lifetime of experience of being regarded as mad by my relatives, and it is very unpleasant.
No you can't tell anyone any such thing. If you had a lifetime of such bad experiences, I'm truly sad for you, but it proves nothing.
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Old 12th October 2017, 05:55 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
How do you know?
It was in all the newspapers. Where were you?
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Old 12th October 2017, 06:16 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Well, that's convenient.

How do we test your claim that the spirit world is not allowed to directly interfere with free will?
None of them have to date. It's almost like they aren't even there.

My dog has been known to chase invisible monsters. Since he wouldn't bark at nothing, it must be something and living under my shed.
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Old 12th October 2017, 09:58 PM   #48
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Don't worry. Its probably Drop Dead Fred she's seeing. You'll know for sure when you're daughter greets the arrival home of her mother with "Oh No! Its the Megabitch !!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxKegT1z7Jc
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Old 12th October 2017, 10:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Try to imagine what it means to a genuinely psychic child to be treated as delusional. Just for one moment put your prejudice aside and consider the possibility there really is a spirit world and some people can see them.
It would start as a young child and may progress from there as they gain understanding. But to be told you are imagining things will be damaging.

Having now already read several of your posts in this thread, I cannot read on without comment. As Argumennon says, there are no such things as psychics and to even begin to encourage a child to think and develop thoughts along such lines is wrong, wrong, wrong. Every child imagines all sorts of things which demonstrates that his/her imagination is functioning as it should. What every child should gradually learn is to distinguish between what is imagined and what is real.
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Old 12th October 2017, 10:42 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Having now already read several of your posts in this thread, I cannot read on without comment. As Argumennon says, there are no such things as psychics and to even begin to encourage a child to think and develop thoughts along such lines is wrong, wrong, wrong. Every child imagines all sorts of things which demonstrates that his/her imagination is functioning as it should. What every child should gradually learn is to distinguish between what is imagined and what is real.
What got me fired was the sly implication that children suffering from actual mental illness, Should at first, be explored for possible psychic/telepathy powers instead of getting them help.

Secondly, I agree with you and Argumennon wholeheartedly.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Try to imagine what it means to a genuinely psychic child to be treated as delusional.
Of some small note, the psychic question is probably little more than a distracting tangent. Of more relevance, I would think that nearly any child would be unhappy at being treated as if they're delusional, regardless.

Also of some note, it's likely worth directly pointing out that in the article that Loss Leader linked to earlier in the thread, it cites the figure that about 37% of kids create an invisible friend by age 7. In other words, this kind of behavior is rather commonplace and probably should not be treated, by itself at least, as a sign of mental illness.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:02 AM   #52
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There are no doubt parents encouraging their kids to tell more of what they 'see'. Maybe there is a forum?

It would be interesting if two or more kids in the same place report seeing/hearing the same stuff.

Terence McKenna's associates conducted experiments where (paraphrasing) people using DMT were reporting encountering the same type of critters and getting similar (or same)messages from them. Wouldnt surprise me if the ayahuasca/DMT crowd were on to something real.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:21 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If the spirits aren't supposed to prove they exist how come they appear to people and give them messages?
They are allowed to comfort the bereaved and inspire people from behind the scenes, and such like, but not to directly interfere with human affairs to the extent of giving scientific proof of the existence of the spirit world.

We are a largely spiritually unevolved species, and the first thing a lot of people would do if the psychic were proven to be true would be to use it for their own ends. Pretty soon every dead beat would be trying to control others with psychic powers.

We have already seen ' men that stare at goats' and MK ultra which were attempts by the CIA, or somebody to do things like assassinate people with thought power.

Life experience is hard enough to work through without psychic wars.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:26 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Well, that's convenient.

How do we test your claim that the spirit world is not allowed to directly interfere with free will?
You cannot test it but you can take my word for it that several trance mediums I have listened to over a number of years have said the same things.

Or you could start attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London for yourself, and over years you might come to a similar conclusion as I have.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
Having now already read several of your posts in this thread, I cannot read on without comment. As Argumennon says, there are no such things as psychics and to even begin to encourage a child to think and develop thoughts along such lines is wrong, wrong, wrong. Every child imagines all sorts of things which demonstrates that his/her imagination is functioning as it should. What every child should gradually learn is to distinguish between what is imagined and what is real.
Yes, but if there are real psychics, some children might be natural mediums and they should not be written off. Most children's imaginings will fade as they get older. But some might develop real clairvoyance. It will hurt them if no one believes what they say.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:15 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Well I think you skeptics need some opposition. Because for one thing you are all totally wrong.

How do you explain my story about a medium telling me the spirit world inspired me to do a blue and white painting.
Is the only explanation you can think of that all-seeing spirits told her about your endeavor for no apparent reason? That's simply a lack of imagination.

A simple answer might be that you had some flecks of blue and white paint on your hand or face, that you hadn't noticed or hadn't been able to clean off fully.
But that's just a guess... there is no way for me to tell how the 'medium' knew you made a painting.
It's up to you to prove that she knew it because she had a ghost spy on you rather than through the hundreds of mundane ways to get this kind of information...

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You cannot test it but you can take my word for it that several trance mediums I have listened to over a number of years have said the same things.

Or you could start attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London for yourself, and over years you might come to a similar conclusion as I have.
How convenient, it works until you look at it too closely. Imagine we took that approach to medicine, or engineering...
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:54 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You cannot test it but you can take my word for it that several trance mediums I have listened to over a number of years have said the same things.

Or you could start attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London for yourself, and over years you might come to a similar conclusion as I have.
Yep, that's all you've got. In other words, you've got nothing.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:53 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
They are allowed to comfort the bereaved and inspire people from behind the scenes, and such like, but not to directly interfere with human affairs to the extent of giving scientific proof of the existence of the spirit world.

We are a largely spiritually unevolved species, and the first thing a lot of people would do if the psychic were proven to be true would be to use it for their own ends. Pretty soon every dead beat would be trying to control others with psychic powers.

We have already seen ' men that stare at goats' and MK ultra which were attempts by the CIA, or somebody to do things like assassinate people with thought power.

Life experience is hard enough to work through without psychic wars.
Oh, the mental circle jerk! It hurts!

You have spirits that aren't allowed to let us know that they exist. Really? And where did you learn this? I looked in my Big Book of Rules for Members of the Spirit World and I can't find it? You hear that from mediums and psychics all the time because they're selling readings/sessions. See, they got it directly from the spirits' mouths (do spirits have mouths)? And they told them to tell us that they're not allowed to deal direct, you have to go through a medium. Everyone in Spirit Lalaland knows that!

Well, except for the self-help mediums who sell seminars on "Bring Out Your Psychic Abilities". They're selling books, seminars and CDs and they've been told by the spirit world that everyone has these abilities; we all just need to learn how to develop these skills and for the low low fee of $49.95 they'll be happy to do that with us, unless we want to be really advanced, then that's the four day retreat and deluxe CD package at $389.
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Old 13th October 2017, 04:56 PM   #59
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Yesterday, Oldest asked about the orb I had. "Orb? I don't get orbs because I rarely use the flash."

"No, that gray thing that lives with you."

"Splat? I haven't seen him in years."

"What was he?"

"Some folks call them 'elementals' or 'nature spirits.' All I know is that he would entertain the cats by bouncing around the basement, making a distinct 'splat' sound when he hit a wall. He crawled into bed once and nestled by my feet, being all cold and clammy. He seemed nice, but I don't really miss him since his fun with the cats would wake me and keep me awake, long past the point of being explained as sleep paralysis."

"What happened to him?"

"He moved out when the cats moved out. You would've been three. So did most of the other non- and semi-corporeal trash your mom attracted. With her gone, no more weird stuff!"
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:28 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
How do you know?
The economic argument.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:33 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
"..... I do know that eggplant was served, and that I was using blue paint.

I'll ask for more about this next time I talk to her. "


Anybody have any questions for her?
What are you, a medium? If your friend really exists, let her confirm her identity, and present her own testimony.
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Old 13th October 2017, 09:38 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
They are allowed to comfort the bereaved and inspire people from behind the scenes, and such like, but not to directly interfere with human affairs...
By whom?
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Old 13th October 2017, 09:45 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
you can take my word for it
If I had to choose seven words that should never, ever, ever appear on a Skeptics Forum, these would be them.
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Old 13th October 2017, 11:02 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
By whom?
That's the point I was making. The authorities on these topics are woo peddlers and the one who has the most popularly accepted woo that month or decade gets their "explanation" accepted, burnished and peddled by the rest of the tagalongs.

The current two main camps are the Invisible Spirits Who Refuse to Cooperate except to the privileged few (mediums and psychics) and the Fuzzy Wuzzy Starchild New Age Spirits who are available to all. Sorta like the Catholics in one camp and the Buddhists in another. Both tell convincing stories to those who are prone to believing that particular line of thought but they can't both be right and I have yet to see the Spiritualism For Dummies chapter that explains the dichotomy.

If it sells, it'll become the catechism. Sorta like how everyone knows that vampires have certain rules which allow you to defeat them in the last reel,... until a new popular series of books/movies come along and those rules go out the window because the current generation is willing to accept vampires that wander around in sunlight.
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Old 14th October 2017, 03:04 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
When my 3 year granddaughter was visiting yesterday she kept staring at something in the hallway. I tried to get her back to the book I had been reading but she was just focused on one spot. When I finally asked, she said she was looking "at the man standing there". She added that at first he scared her, but he "is such a nice man" that she liked him and she was smiling and waving at "him".

OK, no ghost, I am aware, but it made me curious if young children are more prone to hallucinations?
She is in the magical thinking stage of life which is 1-6 yrs. old. It's normal for a child that age to have imaginary friends which, of course, you can't see. Nothing to worry about as she will grow out of it and be none the worst for it.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:06 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Try to imagine what it means to a genuinely psychic child to be treated as delusional.
Try to imagine what it means to a genuinely delusional child to be treated as psychic.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:10 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My position is that although children do imagine things some of them may be genuinely psychic, so careful questioning about what they see may make it possible to deduce if what they are seeing could be a real spirit.
If psychic abilities can't be tested in any way, then how can you determine whether or not what the child is seeing is "a real spirit"?
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:19 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We have already seen ' men that stare at goats' and MK ultra which were attempts by the CIA, or somebody to do things like assassinate people with thought power.
Yes we have. And what happened to those programmes? They were abandoned because they showed no evidence of psychic powers even being real.
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Old 14th October 2017, 06:50 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes, but if there are real psychics, some children might be natural mediums and they should not be written off. Most children's imaginings will fade as they get older. But some might develop real clairvoyance. It will hurt them if no one believes what they say.
Highlighted the key point for you there.

You can't prove psychics exist, conveniently because "the spirit world isn't supposed to let on it exists except to the super-duper special snowflakes." Lulz.

Seriously, how are we to be expected to take you seriously if you don't even make the assertion definite and provide proof? I had a very active imagination as a child (still do), and I often pretended to have imaginary friends and prattled on to my mother about them as if they were real, because at that age, to me, they were. As I grew older, I recognized that they were merely a means to let my highly active imagination develop, and now those creative talents are typically channeled in other ways, not the least of which is my creative writing. I am very clear that the things I imagine are not real, but to a developing child's brain, that line is blurred because children are not mature enough to cognitively understand the difference; they develop that skill as they grow older.

As another example, when he was a child of only about two, my oldest nephew and I were playing in a darkened hallway at his house, having a grand old time, when he suddenly clutched me in a death grip and pointed over my shoulder, saying, "horse! horse!" (He wasn't very articulate at that age). I played along, asking him questions about the horse, which he pretended was a "bad horse", prompting me to say, "okay, let's go find mommy, she'll protect us!" and leading him to the living room where his mother was watching TV with her younger son in her arms. I don't for a second believe my nephew actually saw a horse, but he was exercising his imagination, and I supported his development in that regard.

wasapi, I'd imagine your granddaughter is simply similar to how I was as a child and has an active imagination.
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Old 14th October 2017, 07:51 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes, but if there are real psychics, some children might be natural mediums and they should not be written off. Most children's imaginings will fade as they get older. But some might develop real clairvoyance. It will hurt them if no one believes what they say.
Of course, where else will we get the million souls a day for the golden throne of the god emperor of mankind?
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Old 14th October 2017, 07:58 AM   #71
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I used to see things that weren't there. Monsters, snakes, ghosts, gorillas etc. I was taking CNS stimulants which caused these hallucinations. I this girl on medication?
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Old 14th October 2017, 12:12 PM   #72
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Your granddaughter may have seen something on TV as well and she was sort of acting it out and playing. Other good explanations above.

I think that's what I was going to say, all the other noise in the thread distracted me a bit
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Old 14th October 2017, 12:20 PM   #73
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Your granddaughter may have seen something on TV as well and she was sort of acting it out and playing.
But the TV in the hallway hasn't worked in more than ten years!
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Old 14th October 2017, 12:54 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have a lifetime of experience of being regarded as mad by my relatives, and it is very unpleasant.
You should be grateful that they don't buy into your delusions!
The Danish skeptics just received a comment from somebody who believes in pyramid energy. How do does he/she know that this kind of energy actually exists? From having been placed in a mental institution because of it! http://skeptica.dk/artikler/?p=3729&...comment-135727
A Google translatation will render the text just as intelligible in English as the original text is in Danish!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th October 2017, 12:55 PM   #75
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Quote:
by Loss Leader View Post
Then it shouldn't be a problem to design a test for these abilities. And yet nobody has ever passed a properly controlled study? Why is that?
'Properly'.....were proper psychics involved?


Quote:
How could something that is real also be untestable?
Easy: If actual psychics dont participate.

IMO stating "..nobody has ever passed a properly controlled study" does not comprise actual proof.

My friend I mentioned says she's not interested in testing. Besides her 'gift' doesnt work that way as I explained at length.

BTW yesterday I spoke with her again on phone. I mentioned I was driving my new car. She said is it red? It is red. Thats three for three in my case, so its not really much. Its merely anecdotal anyway. But I'm only one of her acquaintances and I've known her less than ten years. She has 50+ years at it.

She doesnt try and she cannot do it on cue. She doesnt know beforehand. It happens a couple times/month. How do you test someone like that?
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Old 14th October 2017, 01:17 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Yes, but if there are real psychics, some children might be natural mediums and they should not be written off. Most children's imaginings will fade as they get older. But some might develop real clairvoyance. It will hurt them if no one believes what they say.

Natural mediums, real clairvoyance, and in previous posts you spoke of a spirit world I read. So I get the impression you are, or consider yourself to be, an authority on this topic?

Can you tell me what spirits look like and are they made of any physical substance?
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Old 14th October 2017, 01:26 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
She said is it red? It is red.
Why is she asking you if it's red instead of telling you that?
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Old 14th October 2017, 01:27 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is the matter that the spirit world are not allowed to directly interfere with our free will, and proving they exist would do that. As far as the spirit world is concerned we on earth are meant to work things out for ourselves.
We incarnate for experience sake and the struggle of life is how we evolve.

If we knew for certain there was a God or an afterlife we would be inhibited in our actions, but it is by our actions we learn by trial and error, through karma over many incarnations.

The spirit world do help people with inspiration, and often people are given ideas they think were their own, but they were actually being inspired.

A medium once gave me a message, and she said, "the spirit world inspired you to paint a blue and white painting, but you did not think much of it".
That was entirely true, and I do not see how a medium could know I painted, let alone that I had recently done a painting in blue and white that I was not satisfied with.
I paint too, many of us do because we are already inspired, not by spirits, but by the sheer joy of painting for its own sake. If a medium said I had painted a picture of a boat in a harbour in Mauritius, mainly in blue and white (which I did paint and I was not at all happy with), then I may have been more impressed, but then again, I could not rule out that he/she may have had some independent knowledge of that from some other source.
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Old 14th October 2017, 03:14 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But the TV in the hallway hasn't worked in more than ten years!
"They're here!"
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Old 14th October 2017, 03:51 PM   #80
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Children seeing things that are only imaginary is a natural part of their development in understanding their environment and the world around them. They will see something they do not understand so they are likely to associate it with something they have seen before; something they do understand, in order to make sense of what they are seeing. When we look at it, we don't see what they are talking about, because what we see is something already in our experience, and we are unable to make the visual connection between what we are seeing and what the child is describing.

Telling a child with an imaginary friend or who imagines things that we don't see, that they might be some kind of psychic, or encouraging them to believe this nonsense, is fraught with danger for the child and will almost certainly harm them psychologically in the long term. Psychics, mediums, clairvoyants, telepaths and others with such metaphysical or supernatural powers DO NOT EXIST. Those who claim to have such powers are certainly charlatans, frauds and liars, and those who believe them are fools.
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