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18th May 2018, 04:04 PM | #601 |
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No, not only in Germany. And not only Germans were taken into protective custody or other extra-judicial detention in the camp system, whether in the Reich or outside the Reich. Without trying to be exhaustive, outside the Reich were the KLs of the Auschwitz complex, Majdanek (KL Lublin), KL Plaszow, KL Riga- Kaiserwald, KL Stutthof, KL-Vaivara, KL-Warschaur, KL-Natzweiler-Struthof, KL_Kauen, arguably KL Gross-Rosen. (This is leaving aside non-WVHA camps like Starachowice, Skarżysko-Kamienna, the Smelt camps, camps associated with the Todt organization, etc.) I will look up the %'s of German vs non-German inmates. The scale is quite large, just within the KL system - leaving aside work reeducation camps, special camps, camps run by the Wehrmacht, camps associated with business or labor operations, and so on.
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19th May 2018, 05:39 AM | #602 |
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From Wachsmann’s book KL: during 1943 the composition of the inmate population in the KLs changed as mass arrests were carried out throughout Europe (NN, Himmler’s slave labor orders, security and other concerns in the East, etc) - thus, the % of German prisoners in the KL system fell dramatically (e.g., in Buchenwald the % of Germans decreased from 35% to 13% - and Soviet and Polish prisoners were now over 60% of the inmate population at Buchenwald - there were about the same number of French prisoners as Germans in the camp); in 1944 there were 200,000 women in the KL system (almost 40% of the prisoners at that time); during 1944 about 2/3 of new inmates were Jews, e.g., many from the Schmelt camps (sorry for typo on these camps above) and of course many Hungarian Jews.
Other sources on individual camps detail Wachsmann's point: as the Allies moved east from Normandy, camps in western Europe were emptied and their inmates moved into German KLs. At the same time, as the the Germans were pushed out of the Baltics and eastern Poland, camps in the east were similarly evacuated. For example, by late 1944 in Dachau there were almost 65,000 inmates from Hungary, Poland, the USSR, France, and Italy - and just 7,500 from Germany. In all, inmates at Dachau in 1944 came from 26 countries besides Germany. My (quite chaotic) notes on the KLs don’t give system-wide totals, just directional cases and examples, with a large majority of prisoners in the KL system by 1943 coming from countries other than Germany. By contrast, within the regular German prison system, in 1944, according to Wachsmann’s estimate in Hitler’s Prisons, there were about 200,000 prisoners (vs 500,000+ KL inmates that year). Wachsmann says that by the late 1930s about half those in the prison system were inmates who would not have been incarcerated in Weimar but were imprisoned due to the new laws and stricter policies of the Third Reich (different and greater use of protective custody, employment of security confinement for so-called habitual criminals). Wachsmann estimates that there were nearly 60,000 political prisoners in the regular prison system, including 13,000 Czechs and many Poles; also a few 1000s NN prisoners from western Europe, which means that even in regular German prisons there were many 1000s of foreign inmates incarcerated for political and security reasons. |
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19th May 2018, 05:35 PM | #603 |
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Excellent information I appreciate your effort in finding this out. I look at that and compare that to the number of people given sentences in the countries that have laws against denial. What two dozen over x number of years versus tens of thousands of political prisoners of the Nazis. Would you care to estimate a number that we might use to fill in the following. The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners. Thanks |
21st May 2018, 12:16 PM | #604 |
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21st May 2018, 12:21 PM | #605 |
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Damn, missed the Mondial visit. I was hoping he might provide evidence as to what happened to the Hungarian Jews not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau, or the Poles at TII, or the Dutch at Sobibor.
It is my ambition to get a denier to answer that question........I may have to live till I am very old. |
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22nd May 2018, 04:28 PM | #606 |
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23rd May 2018, 04:04 PM | #607 |
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The Nazis during their reign of terror, from 1933-1945, across Europe, placed into prison about 2+ million political prisoners.
Wachsmann has 150,000-200,000 people subjected to detention without trial in just 1933, before the camp system started to become structured and acquired permanence; these were mainly political detainees as the new regime settled scores with its traditional opponents and those feared to become its enemies. During 1934-1938 the daily numbers of KL prisoners grew from 2,500 in October 1934 to 24,000 in June 1938 before Kristallnacht, when the camp population temporarily exploded to 50,000, before falling back to 21,400 by the eve of the invasion of Poland. Again focusing on only KL prisoners, daily totals climbed during the war: December 1940 - 53,000; December 1941 - 80,000; December 1942 - 110,000; December 1943 - 315,000; August 1944 - 524,000; January 1945 - 714,000. As noted, 10s of 1000s of prisoners were held in regular German prisons for political crimes, but the numbers during the 1930s were small compared to what came later, and many, many 1000s more were in various types of confinement outside the KL system during the war years, when numbers of prisoners in German custody skyrocketed. I checked with a scholar who estimates that the Gestapo proper arrested around 2 million people from 1933 to 1945, including in the annexed territories during the war, whilst the SiPo arrested probably 1 million non-Jews across occupied territories. The reasons for arrest and confinement were broader than what deniers complain about (thought crime, crimes of expression or political activity) and included speech and political activity/assocation, of course, but also what the Nazis defined as “asocial” behavior (another term might be “social or political outsiders”), excessive drinking or alcoholism, habitual criminality targeting so-called career criminals (security confinement, e.g., indefinite KL sentence tacked onto end of regular-prison sentence), being “work-shy” or violating labor laws (, begging or panhandling, striking or stopping work, loafing, absenteeism, fraternization with foreign laborers), section 175 offenses, being disabled (T4 and wild euthanasia), practicing as a Jehovah’s Witness, membership in a “local” political elite as in Poland, pacifism, being a member of Catholic and Protestant clergy (think Martin Niemöller) in some cases, living as a “Gypsy,” Freemasonry, trade union leadership or activity, political opposition (from KPD to SPD to Center Party and conservatives to oppositionists in the SA), being a relative of an important political opponent, suspicion of political opposition or possible future opposition, etc. These categories cross one another, and estimating how many of those detained were held as “Reds” or for strictly political reasons is beyond me. I’ve searched a bit and not found an estimate of the number of “Reds” held as political detainees in the KLs. Even Langbein, who wrote a whole book on Greens/Reds and other groups in the camps, didn’t AFAIK venture an estimate for total number of Greens and Reds in the system. Some data points: Wachsmann estimates that 80% of all Bavarian inmates in 1934 were still political prisoners but that the %’s of “asocials” and “criminals” (Greens) were increasing rapidly. By 1935 Dachau (in Bavaria) held, out of 1,543 prisoners, 246 professional criminals, 198 so-called work-shy, 26 “hardened criminals,” and 38 “moral perverts.” In 1937-1938 police sweeps for suspected criminals brought more and more “BVers” (Berufsverbrecher, or professional criminals) into the KLs; similarly Operation Work-Shy in 1938 rounded up 12,000-15,000 “asocials” and put them in KLs. By 1938 perhaps 70% of those in the camps were “asocials” (wearers of black triangle). As the SS expanded labor “opportunities” (er, important economic tasks) in the late ‘30s, Greens and “asocials” came to predominate in the camps. Wachsmann says that, counter to stereotypes, by and large the BVers were small-time property offenders, not violent, sadistic types. During the war, the composition of the inmate population would shift again, as large numbers of people from occupied countries and territory were incarcerated in the KLs as political threats (this is leaving aside POWs and Jews also brought into the camps during the war) - along with local peasants who failed to meet requisition quotas and so on. Nacht und Nebel prisoners disappeared into camps from places in western Europe, as did volunteers for the Republican side in the Spanish civil war caught in France or elsewhere during the Nazi occupation. But also during these years the number of labor violators, fraternizers, etc in the camps increased. During the war, the proportion of “politicals” increased outside the borders of the Reich. As a snapshot, in August 1944, according to vol II of the Auschwitz Museum history of KL Auschwitz, more than a quarter of the inmates (29,000) were political prisoners - and of this half about 1/3 were Poles, the next largest group being Russians. Well over half the prisoners at the time were Jews. There were small numbers of “asocials,” “Gypsies,” Jehovah’s Witnesses, section 175ers, and prisoners held in “probationary custody.” The data cited were compiled by the camp resistance and exclude another almost 40,000 Jews not given camp numbers. Of the non-Jewish prisoners, by far most were “politicals.” I would guess that, using a conservative definition of “political prisoner,” 2+ million individuals landed in Nazi confinement of one sort or another during the Twelve-Year Reich as political detainees. Without a trial. Held indefinitely. Often in lethal conditions. As to the small number of revisionists whose asses have landed in prison, unlike KL and other prisoners of work-reeducation camps, etc, they’ve been found guilty of violating specific laws, by a court, and, after mounting a legal defense, given a specific sentence under the law, whatever one thinks of the laws involved. My suggestion for deniers with a martyr-complex, to get a simpler look at this, is that they inquire about Sophie and Hans Scholl to learn how the Nazis handled popular expression of differing political viewpoints (“thought crimes” and expression of dissent - sadly, they would not have been able to ask the Scholls, after the war, for their experiences). Or these cry-baby deniers might ask what was the fate of Kurt Schleicher, or even of the SA-men slaughtered by Hitler and the SS in June 1934. Or what happened to prominent national conservatives during the Third Reich. To get a sense of how their heroes operated. |
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24th May 2018, 03:50 AM | #608 |
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One delusion which deniers trade in is that anti-HD laws come about because those who want to curtail certain speech are afraid of the truth and have no arguments against it. Here, however, is a case in the US of an attempt to shut down speech involving false statements - not out of a fear of the truth or a lack of arguments to counter the falsehoods but because the speech is hurtful to the point of harassing and because it is ongoing, thus repeating the harm over and over.
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15th June 2018, 01:53 AM | #609 |
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Anti-denial laws also do not prevent people accessing archives and looking for evidence. Look at the work produced by Carlo Mattogno in particular. He admits to accessing original sources in Poland and Russia, which I believe he can also read and produces copies in his books. Thomas Kues and BRoI have also been beavering away in archives (BRoI at Kew and the UK National Archive).
If there really was a hoax to protect, there is no way those people would be allowed anywhere near archives or originals, in case they find evidence of the claimed mass survival of those sent to the AR camps. Denial laws do not prevent access to archives or research. |
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28th July 2018, 06:37 AM | #610 |
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30th July 2018, 05:09 PM | #611 |
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I despise Holocast Deniers, but am strongly opposed to Anti HD laws. I am very much of a fundemantlist when it comes to Freedom of Speech.
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31st July 2018, 06:12 AM | #612 |
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31st July 2018, 12:16 PM | #613 |
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I agree. They enjoy the "risk" of posting anonymously on the internet, it make them feel like outlaws righting wrongs. They also like to think their "evidence" is so powerful it needs laws to repress it.
Even deniers in the USA and UK, who are at no risk at all, thrill to the idea they are on a crusade of truth which "the Juden" are scared of. It adds to the appeal of denial. |
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31st July 2018, 12:58 PM | #614 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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31st July 2018, 04:57 PM | #615 |
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31st July 2018, 05:16 PM | #616 |
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1st August 2018, 03:36 PM | #617 |
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And the precedent they set is horrible. People around here laugh at the "slippery slope" theory, but once a government bans a belief ,it becomes a lot easier for future governments to ban a belief they find "dangerous". you can probably prove that any belief Is "Dangerous" if you want to ban it.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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1st August 2018, 06:22 PM | #618 |
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Banning a belief is the first step towards an Orwellian Society.
IMO, having Moon Hoax Believers, JFK/RFK/MLK conspiracy nuts, 9/11 Truthers and Holocaust deniers serves a useful purpose.... it exposes the Stupid people in our society for who they are. I have a couple of family members (thankfully wider not immediate) who are truthers. They know I am a skeptic so when I visit, eventually the subject comes around to 9/11. I now have as little to do with them as possible (and I've made it clear to them the reason why). |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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7th August 2018, 01:53 AM | #619 |
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A copy of that book was kept at St Andrews University's library whilst it was banned. One of the lecturers bought it in Belgium, brought it back, colluded with a head librarian, covered it in brown paper with a stencil title to make it look like it was a bland index of other works. It was given a DDC and put into the history section.
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7th August 2018, 01:56 AM | #620 |
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30th September 2018, 01:50 PM | #621 |
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Jewish writer and businessman Ron Unz has come out in support of holocaust revisionism. Another Jew who did his own research and realised he'd been lied to by the msm and Hollywood.
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pra...ocaust-denial/ https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912 |
30th September 2018, 02:24 PM | #622 |
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Who?
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30th September 2018, 03:42 PM | #623 |
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30th September 2018, 05:27 PM | #624 |
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1st October 2018, 01:38 AM | #625 |
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4th October 2018, 04:49 AM | #626 |
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From a post I made in a different forum right after Unz's coming out party:
I have my issues with David Cole, but I thought he hit a big fly with Unicornville. And now he’s back, savaging Ron Unz’s case for HD, with another dinger, one he prefaces with a perfect description of how deniers so often act:
Quote:
(1) official German documents (2) Goebbels’ diary - I like this:
Quote:
(4) gas chambers - and documents yet again along with the resettlement and transit nonsense (5) the official story on how gassings were conducted (6) the Reinhard camps in the light of Auschwitz (7) population statistics (8) Treblinka as a transit camp (9) population again (10) Churchill, Ike, and de Gaulle’s non-mention, I kid you not, Unz brought this up! (11) John Beaty (you have to read the piece!) (12) Treblinka archaeology - like so,
Quote:
I’m not saying not to read the first part of the piece - which gets into Irving, Goebbels' diary, German bureaucracy, witnesses and remembrance - I’m just asking specifically about the second part. |
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4th October 2018, 04:55 AM | #627 |
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. . . all this would be absurd if it weren't happening, now let's go and eat. - Jose Saramago, The Stone Raft |
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16th October 2018, 08:29 AM | #628 |
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Hello everyone - I've recently become interested in this topic after having been recommended to watch 'One Third of the Holocaust', 'Cole in Auschwitz' and some stuff about Leuchter by a denier elsewhere. I watched these films and also read the excellent and thorough debunking of them on the 'Holocaust Controversies' blog. This resource has since become my 'go to' site to link when presented with most things I hear from deniers (after which they always go completely silent! ) but I can't seem to find a treatment of Anthony Lawson's 'Were the Germans so stupid?' film there.
I've skimmed through the film and much of it seems to be about whether or not HD should be illegal etc. but is there a source that refutes his 'factual' claims point by point? Thanks. |
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21st October 2018, 04:13 AM | #629 |
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Lawson is hardly credible;
https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=1006 "Having been tortured, Rudolf Höss, who was the commander of Auschwitz from 1940 to 1943, almost certainly lied to save the lives of his wife and children. Even if torture and duress cannot be proven, the overwhelming reason for recognizing the utter falsity of the Höss confession is that the gassing method he described was not scientifically plausible." He starts with an unevidenced claim Hoss lied to save his family. He then accepts claims about torture and duress are not proven. He then makes a ridiculous non sequitur claim that because Hoss did not describe a plausible means of gassing (which is a claim that is disputed), therefore it was impossible to have gassed people at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Those types of argument have already been debunked and there is no need to go through every single rehash of the arguments. |
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21st October 2018, 10:18 PM | #630 |
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@Nessie
Fair enough - I just found the point by point debunkings of the most popular HD videos really useful when talking to deniers (and a wonderfully reliable way of making them disappear from the conversation!) even if it means going over the same material, and I think Lawson's vid is quite well regarded among them. When I get a bit more well versed in the subject (I'm very new to it) I'll probably do a point by point debunking myself. |
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22nd October 2018, 01:05 PM | #631 |
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What I found amusing during the
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIGyLfzrVzE That no evidence of devices (my word not his) were found to indicate that people were gassed to death and then cremated was "ever" found. I guess the Allies imagery taken at DDE's insistence never existed. |
22nd October 2018, 01:28 PM | #632 |
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22nd October 2018, 02:58 PM | #633 |
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French denialist Robert Faurisson died last Sunday 21 October. Good riddance...
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22nd October 2018, 06:26 PM | #634 |
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Absolutely - as I say, 'Holocaust Controversies' has become my go-to resource when talking to deniers, but it's great to have pages dedicated to the specific videos they're likely to link to, the conversation usually going something like:
- Here is an utterly irrefutable film that proves x, y, z but you won't watch it because your programming means you are unable to accept any doubt over anything to do with the official holocaust narrative and just dismiss anyone who does as a Nazi without even looking at the evidence they present. - OK, thanks. I've now watched your film and have also read this point by point rebuttal of it on 'Holocaust Controversies'. Would you like to bring up any specific points raised in the film, and how you think they prove x, y, z so we can discuss them? Crickets. Either that or I'm told I'm Jewish (then when I tell them I'm not, which I'm not, I'm told I'm lying) so nothing I say should be listened to anyway The gambit seems to be to link to a horrendously long and/or tedious and/or vague, convoluted film and claim in advance that the person you're talking to won't watch it due to their 'programming', then if they do watch it just bail on the conversation. This has happened to me a number of times now whenever I'm honest and say that I'm new to the subject. The only conversation they want to have is with people who actively refuse to look at their 'evidence' so they can say, 'You won't even look at the evidence!' etc. It's just really useful to have a page that deals with the way the argument is structured in the specific videos they're likely to link to - of course it's going to be the same ultimate non-argument, but the sophistry and tricks used may vary. EDIT - Sorry, I see what you're saying now - you're recommending those sites for me to read up on so I can do the point by point debunking myself. Thanks |
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23rd October 2018, 01:50 AM | #635 |
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Ask deniers to evidence their beliefs. Be specific, like, ask them what they think happened to the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943 and to show their evidence.
It is comical to watch them squirm. |
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23rd October 2018, 04:41 AM | #636 |
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23rd October 2018, 05:46 AM | #637 |
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23rd October 2018, 06:01 AM | #638 |
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23rd October 2018, 11:57 AM | #639 |
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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24th October 2018, 12:38 PM | #640 |
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