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20th April 2018, 02:19 AM | #41 |
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Now that it is all clear again to all what the First Amendment is and isn't (oh and it isn't absolute in time and space: when I stand under your bedroom window at 2AM with a bullhorn and "exercise free speech", the police is totally in their rights to drag me off if I don't stop), a couple of serious legal questions about the US system.
First: is it possible, in the context of a defamation suit like this, that claimants ask the court to forbid defendant from repeating the same defaming statements that are the subject of the suit? With "possible", I mean: does the law allow this in principle, and it has at least once in legal history been granted. With "forbid" I mean: either in principle rule that a repeat of the statements will also be defamatory, or already explicitly set a monetary penalty so it would save the burden of a new lawsuit. Second: Is it possible to pre-emptively forbid someone to publish defamatory statements? Scenario: defendant is preparing a book, and the claimant gets wind of that and gets hold of (relevant parts of) the draft at the publisher's. Claimant files suit attempting to forbid publication of the book in its current form. |
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20th April 2018, 04:03 AM | #42 |
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20th April 2018, 04:07 AM | #43 |
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20th April 2018, 05:23 AM | #44 |
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That's another major difference. When The Onion uses a real person in its stories, it's always someone famous, which puts them in the "public person" arena when it comes to defamation. Otherwise, they only refer to the generic "Local Man" with their non-specific bits of satire. Jones went after a specific group of private individuals. Having been the victim of a crime cannot reasonably lead to the conclusion that they are public persons for the purposes of defamation, so he'll be facing much stricter standards than The Onion would face in such a lawsuit. |
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20th April 2018, 05:40 AM | #45 |
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The legal process is the best method we have for determine if defamation occurred. It is a better world to not be defamed rather than defamed and compensated. A judgement that he did not defame them is a better indicator that they were not defamed than a judgement that he did.
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20th April 2018, 06:17 AM | #46 |
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20th April 2018, 06:37 AM | #47 |
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20th April 2018, 07:26 AM | #48 |
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20th April 2018, 07:29 AM | #49 |
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20th April 2018, 07:34 AM | #50 |
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20th April 2018, 07:37 AM | #51 |
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but if they were indeed defamed...........?
surely him being found guilty and having to compensate them would be a fair process also correct? or is what you are trying to allude without saying it is that it would not be? |
20th April 2018, 07:40 AM | #52 |
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It only makes sense in the absence of contextual information. In this instance, we know that the relatives of murder victims feel upset and offended that Jones has claimed publically that their dead relations either never existed or are not dead, and that they are all complicit in a crime by lying about the deaths. Given this contextual information, it seems to me that the following may result in an acquittal:
(1) The finding that Jones's statements are factually true. This would be an unpleasant finding in that they almost certainly are not true, and if they were we would be living in a dystopian nightmare. (2) The finding that Jones never made any such statements. This would be a bizarre finding given that the statements are well documented. (3) The finding that the statements, though untrue, are not defamatory. This would be an unpleasant finding because it would in effect mean that anybody could be accused of anything out of simple malice, and would have no recourse in law. So, despite the general principle that it's preferable that no crime has been committed, in this specific instance I disagree very strongly with it. I hope Jones loses because the facts of the case seem clearly established in this instance, and in general it is a better world if principles of justice are upheld than if they are ignored. Dave |
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20th April 2018, 07:42 AM | #53 |
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20th April 2018, 07:47 AM | #54 |
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20th April 2018, 07:51 AM | #55 |
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you keep dancing around what has been asked. Are you saying that if they were defamed, that the results of a trial indicating so would not be a best predictor?
you only use the phrase - The results of a trial is probably our best predictor if defamation occurred - only when describing the win you want. not the loss that is also possible. |
20th April 2018, 07:53 AM | #56 |
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Being accused of a crime and losing standing in the community is a damage. Mental distress is a damage. There's a threshold, and the job of the court is to determine what that threshold is, but in this instance my personal opinion is that it's been met and that recompense should be sought.
In general, we're allowed to use context to inform judgements. I realise you disagree with that principle, but let's not let this thread be derailed into yet another discussion of that. Dave |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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20th April 2018, 07:54 AM | #57 |
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20th April 2018, 07:56 AM | #58 |
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20th April 2018, 07:58 AM | #59 |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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20th April 2018, 07:59 AM | #60 |
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20th April 2018, 07:59 AM | #61 |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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20th April 2018, 08:01 AM | #62 |
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20th April 2018, 08:09 AM | #63 |
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Analogy
I go in for a medical test. I want the results to be accurate. I hope they are negative. No one thinks I want the results to be negative regardless if I have an illness or not. I'm also not taking the test necessarily with the presumption that i don't have the illness. |
20th April 2018, 08:10 AM | #64 |
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Jesus Christ down the hole we go again.
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20th April 2018, 08:26 AM | #65 |
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20th April 2018, 08:30 AM | #66 |
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Are you a Sandy Hook truther or something? You're literally defending Alex Jones. One of the biggest scam artists and ******** that's walking on this planet in the past 20 years.
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20th April 2018, 08:31 AM | #67 |
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BTC makes a fundamental mistake: he pretends that a court's decision can alter historical facts.
What Jones is accuser of happened in the past, and no verdict will ever change that. The pain and damage inflicted on the victins (if any) was inflicted in the past, and no verdict can ever uninflict it. The only thing that can change is people's OPINION about whether or not the deed crosses the applicable legal thresholds. Indeed, these thresholds may vary in the future (some things that used to be crimes now are considered rights). We know at least some of the historical facts. Enough to form a judgement, perhaps assess probabilities. No court decision is necessary. Now Bob prefers a not-guilty finding, believing that such a finding would lower the probability that Jones is criminally or civilly liable below a threshold of significance, but that is an unsure bet, and betrays a lack of understanding of how Bayesian inference works. If Jones us, in fact, guilty then a not-guilty verdict is most definitely not preferable, because it cannot possibly change the historical fact - it would add a miscarriage of justice on top of the damages already incurred. Not using information already recorded in history to form judgement is the opposite of skeptical and enlightened. It's plain dumb. |
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20th April 2018, 08:35 AM | #68 |
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OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
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20th April 2018, 08:55 AM | #69 |
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20th April 2018, 08:59 AM | #70 |
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20th April 2018, 09:01 AM | #71 |
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Thermodynamics hates conspiracy theorists. (Foster Zygote) The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. (Gilbert Keith Chesterton) |
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20th April 2018, 09:03 AM | #72 |
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20th April 2018, 09:05 AM | #73 |
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20th April 2018, 09:09 AM | #74 |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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20th April 2018, 09:10 AM | #75 |
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20th April 2018, 09:15 AM | #76 |
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There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021 |
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20th April 2018, 09:18 AM | #77 |
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20th April 2018, 09:36 AM | #78 |
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This is an odd place for this thread to be located. It's not a conspiracy that the parents are suing Alex Jones.
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20th April 2018, 09:39 AM | #79 |
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Your analogy doesn't really work. A negative medical test is not proof that you don't have a disease. False negatives occur, just like bad judgements at trial. Also, pretty much everyone wants to not have a disease, which doesn't apply to defamation trials. Not everyone wants the defendant to win.
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20th April 2018, 09:42 AM | #80 |
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