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25th June 2018, 06:18 PM | #361 |
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Hey we convicted some people of witchcraft in the past too. Surely that remains a possibility with the RFK case, that Sirhan was acting under a witch’s spell.
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25th June 2018, 06:38 PM | #362 |
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25th June 2018, 06:54 PM | #363 |
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25th June 2018, 07:05 PM | #364 |
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26th June 2018, 01:52 AM | #365 |
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Bumped again for Manifesto.
Accusing someone of dishonesty and an opposition to truth and justice isn't something you can just throw out without consequences. This is the real world, Manifesto, not your bedroom. This is the adult world. Now, be a big, brave boy, stop running away and either back up your accusation or retract it. This is what grown-ups do. |
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27th June 2018, 01:21 PM | #366 |
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This may be "BS" situation but it did happen.
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So, now that there is proof that an individual can shoot while under hypnosis; the claim (of hypnosis) by manifesto has a precedent. |
27th June 2018, 04:21 PM | #367 |
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Did it, or was it just a story that McDonald cooked up that a jury believed? This was the 1800s after all, and there were still people around who believed in witches! In the 1830s a prosecution for witchcraft was commenced against a man in Fentress County, Tennessee named Stout, based upon his alleged influence over the health of a young woman.
Derry Cooke, Certified hypnotherapist in private practice since 2015. No. People can have their minds altered by force e.g ‘brainwashing’, indoctrination, but this is not hypnosis. Hypnosis is a consent state which requires the hypnotic subject to give their attention to the hypnotist. Even the so-called shock inductions require a certain compliance before the response can be fired through the subject’s neurology. Constant exposure to hypnotic recordings may have an influential effect similar to exposure to advertising. Whether it effects you or not will depend on whether you give it your attention. As an analogy, consider the same scenario, only this time you are kidnapped, tied up and forced to listen to a genre of music you absolutely hate. How likely are you to ever become a raving fan of that style of music? No-one was claiming this This is what was claimed, and it is not possible. A physical skill such as shooting, playing a sport, operating machinery etc cannot be improved through hypnosis. Hypnosis cannot turn you into a "Hail-Mary" throwing, highly accurate NFL starting quarterback even if you can already throw a football 50 yards. No, this has not been demonstrated, and it is not a matter of record. It was claimed, but not proven. Just because some hicktown jury accepted his story doesn't make it the truth... ever heard of Orenthal James Simpson? No there is not. There is no proof that McDonald was actually hypnotised, only his claim that he was. If you want to prove that it is possible, you are going to have to do a LOT better than referencing some newspaper reports from 120 years ago. You will need to conduct a proper controlled, scientific experiment, using circumstances that match as closely as possible to what you are trying to prove. e.g 1. Test to see if the premise, "A person may be hypnotised to kill an other individual", is valid. a. Use a person who does not wish to participate. b. Hypnotise them against their will. c. Plant a post hypnotic suggestions (with a trigger) to go out shoot a particular person. d. Test them under safe conditions to see if they do it. 2. Test to see if the premise, "A person may be hypnotised improve their skill and accuracy in shooting", is valid. a. Use a person known to be a below average shooter. b. Test them at a firing range. c. Hypnotise them and plant a post hypnotic suggestion that they are a sharpshooter. d. Bring them out of the hypnotic state and repeat the firing range test under identical conditions. You will have to repeat both experiments several times with different subjects (to make sure its not a one-off). You will also need to repeat the test with controls such as test subjects who are willing, or who are already good shooters. You should also perform some sort of double-blind test e.g. a. Use subjects to whom you fully explain before hand what you are going to ask them to do. b. Use subjects to whom you do not explain the test at all. c. Use subjects to whom you lie about what you are going to ask them to do. Only when I see proper study something like what I have explained above, will I accept it is possible to hypnotise an unwilling person to shoot someone, or to use hypnosis to turn someone with a poor physical skill into someone who is a expert in that skill. And its important to remember that the technique (incorrectly) known as brainwashing, is not the same as hypnosis. It may well be possible to condition someone to kill, but is a process that has to be carried out intensively over a long period of time. For Sirhan Sirhan to be the subject of a mind control, you would have to prove that this was done, and it would almost certainly involve large tracts of time - months on end, where no-one would know his whereabouts. Sirhan Sirhan was a regular attendee at meetings of his Rosicrucian branch for two years leading up to the assassination, and prior to that, at different times, he had been Baptist and a Seventh Day Adventist; also a regular attendee at church. Its difficult to see how he could have gone missing for the lengths of time necessary to do some sort of "Jason Bourne" style conditioning to turn him into an assassin. |
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27th June 2018, 09:29 PM | #368 |
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Wade Boggs had to have a helping of fried chicken before a game.
Jason Giambi wore a gold thong to break a slump Justin Verlander at Taco Bell before he pitched. Moises Alou urinated on his hands before each game to help his grip. I don't think hypnosis is why a guy becomes a better shot. |
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28th June 2018, 01:45 AM | #369 |
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28th June 2018, 02:00 AM | #370 |
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All of this conspiracy guff assumes that the CIA and the Pentagon are great monolithic blocks, in which everyone is either in complete agreement about everything, or is too scared to speak up.
However, in the real world, from My Lai to Manning, we know that this just isn't true. I doubt there is any organisation anywhere which displays the kind of behaviour assumed by the Manifestos of this world. People disagree all the time, about goals, strategies and methods. I seriously doubt that every single employee of the CIA wanted the Kennedys dead, or that the entire upper cadre of management were happy to either plot and carry out the assassination of prominent Americans, or to have at least a hunch that their co-workers might have been responsible and yet stay silent. This is, IMHO, a simplistic, cartoonish world view. I missed this the first time round. What the chuff is all this about? |
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28th June 2018, 04:44 AM | #371 |
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28th June 2018, 04:58 AM | #372 |
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28th June 2018, 04:59 AM | #373 |
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The only simplistic and cartoonish are your grose misrepresentation of the arguments for Sirhan being the subject of coerced mind control. If I sometimes simplify the discussion with ”CIA”, it doesn’t mean that the whole of CIA was in on it or that only formal employees was part in it. More often it is short of ’elements within the US Intel community where the CIA is the chief institution, the top of the food chain’.
To state all this everytime would be close to insanely cumbersome, so I’m shortening it to a simple ”CIA” and expect requests for clearifications if needed. When it comes to the CIA there is also clear evidence of at least three mind control programs, BLUebird, ARTichoke and MKUltra, reporting successful experiments with subjects that completely against their moral convictions was turned in to unwitting assassins (shooting blanks) and who did not remember anything of it afterwards. And, that targeting of American officials was on the table.
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28th June 2018, 05:00 AM | #374 |
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28th June 2018, 05:48 AM | #375 |
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28th June 2018, 08:24 AM | #377 |
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This was an aborted plan WITHIN the project, not THE project.
Morse Allen, chief of CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE wrote this in an internal memo, 1954: ”On Wednesday, 10 February 1954, hypnotic experimentation and research work was continued in Building 13 .*.*. the work proceeded as follows:It shows that they had experimental confirmation on the prospect of through hypnosis create an unwitting Manchurian candidate as early as 1954, almost 14 year before the assassination of RFK. Add to that coersive techniques and drugs and the idea of Sirhan being programmed is perfectly reasonable. The question is if he was programmed to act as he did, not if it was possible. It clearly was and still is. |
28th June 2018, 01:19 PM | #378 |
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Anyway, RFK Jr. isn't exactly credible on...well a lot of things.
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28th June 2018, 01:30 PM | #379 |
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Their are problems with your theory that Sirhan Sirhan could have simply been hypnotised to shoot RFK
1. With simple hypnosis, its not just a matter of grabbing some poor mook off the street and hypnotising him to do the deed. He has to WANT to do it in the first place. Hypnotising someone requires their full cooperation; a person cannot be hypnotised against their will. 2. With persuasive coercion, the subject must be conditioned, and that takes a lot more than just a couple of quick sessions. It takes a long time and a lot of work, during which time the subject will be isolated from the outside world. You can't condition someone on weekends and then send him back to his work as a stable boy on Monday. 3. It is not enough to speculate that this could have happened. You must prove that Sirhan Sirhan WAS persuasively coerced using mind control techniques, and to do so, you will need to find and provide documentary evidence that this actually happened. You will also have to prove that Sirhan Sirhan was absent from his work place and his social life for large tracts of time which would be unaccounted for by any other means. As I said earlier, he was a member of the Ancient Mystical Order of the Rose Cross, the Rosicrucians, and a regular attendee at their meetings. Absent this, your ideas are nothing more than unfounded idle speculation. |
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28th June 2018, 01:58 PM | #380 |
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*raises hand* Question.
Why would the CIA/FBI/hawkish generals or whomever risk killing a President who, like all Presidents, they (well, their superiors) ultimately report to - let alone, said President's brother (who was a sitting US Senator at the time of his assassination, and had previously been his brother's Attorney General and closest advisor)? Do you really think they're THAT stupid? It's one thing for members of the public to believe such conspiracy theories without evidence. Most people aren't trained in critical thinking - let alone, expertise on matters relating to intelligence agencies, the military, law enforcement, or what have you. But if there were actual, credible evidence of such a conspiracy, with identifiable likely suspects...do you honestly believe that it would just go unnoticed by thousands (more likely, millions) of politicians and other government officials over a half-century - let alone, the US media? Are you kidding me?! Angry, disaffected types with psychological..."issues" and some sort of political grievance - however incoherent - are far more likely to seriously consider such crimes, and are far more likely to be successful, since the US government isn't very good at looking for needles in a haystack compared to, say, predicting what a hostile major nation-state will do (and they're not even very good at that!).This is especially true when the "needles" (or "lone wolves") are US citizens themselves, or at the very least, are spending a lot of time on US soil. The US government does not have as much latitude in monitoring domestic threats compared to foreign ones, and it's not solely for legal reasons (think of all of the differently structured, yet both conflicting and overlapping in their mission federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies and jurisdictions within the country - there are TONS of agencies and sub-agencies with byzantine and maddeningly bureaucratic (in the worst way) INTERNAL structures; add in relations with other agencies, and things get very messy real quick...). Note that most terrorist attacks, school shootings, hate crimes, or just violent crime and crimes in general are carried out by like, a half-dozen people at most - the majority of them are carried out by one individual. If the national security agencies and law enforcement (at all levels) can't prevent the thousands upon thousands of individuals who "slip through the cracks" and carry out some violent thing, then is it REALLY a big stretch to think that a motivated, nothing-to-lose "lone nut" can kill a President riding past a bunch of tall buildings in an exposed convertible in broad daylight, or a presidential candidate who's willingly being mobbed by scores of people in a small, crowded room? /rant |
28th June 2018, 02:47 PM | #381 |
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No. The CIA female secretary refered to in Morse Allens memo, would not even tuch the gun when awake and certainly not kill her friend with it.
Under hypnosis, she did. And did not remember that she did.
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One of them ’assassinated’ her friend anyway.
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Well, according to CIA’s chief of Project ARTICHOKE, Morse Allen, it clearly was possible. They did it in experiments.
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1. Was it within CIA’s capacity to create mind controlled assassins/patsies in assassinations of American officials, 1968? Yes, it clearly was. 2. Was Sirhan a victim of mind control when shooting at RFK, 1968? Yes, the evidence of this are overwhelming. |
28th June 2018, 03:03 PM | #382 |
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Yes.
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Heard of the ancient biblical scape goat? The sacrificial lamb?
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They were killed by very powerful people as state crimes against democracy. |
28th June 2018, 03:08 PM | #383 |
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CIA documents on Artichoke:
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00050005-3.pdf This one is cool because it contains an article about a Ukrainian who killed a guy using a custom built, high-pressure squirt-gun filled with vaporized cyanide. https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00010010-3.pdf This one discusses the problems with the assassination plan on an operational level: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...0000140399.pdf There are more, you can use the search engine. Doesn't sound like a successful enterprise. |
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28th June 2018, 03:13 PM | #384 |
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No.
The CIA and KGB knew that the best way to motivate/influence people was cash. Few questions than mind-control, which really doesn't work.
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28th June 2018, 03:36 PM | #385 |
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So, chief of CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE, Morse Allen, is lying in his memo? That they succeded to hypnotize a female CIA secretary to assassinate her female co-worker in spite of her strong held moral convictions against weapons and killing human beings?
It wasn’t even coersion, just manipulation. That some of the world leading researchers on hypnosis and mind control has stated that they are convinced that Sirhan was under some form of hypnotic mind control when shooting at RFK isn’t at all impressive according to you either? You just state stuff and magically it’s just so, isn’t it? |
28th June 2018, 03:43 PM | #386 |
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What’s behind your links?
Last time you ”linked” it was to a 300 plus pages Church Committee document refuting your statement that RFK had anything to do with assassination attempts on Fidel Castro. Same here? Documents refuting your conviction that Sirhan could not and was not the victim of CIA hypnotic mind control when shooting at RFK? Are you always doing this? Posting links to documents refuting your claims? If so, why on earth are you doing that? |
28th June 2018, 04:32 PM | #387 |
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I posted the links for the normal people who view this thread and might like to know more.
I have no expectations of you reading anything based on fact, or even conducting yourself in a way that indicates that you are intellectually honest. You refer to one experiment out of many, and the fact that you're running with it exposes your lack of understanding of the scientific method. What happened in all of the other experiments? Why was this operation necessary if MK ULTRA was effective? Why were both terminated? Why did the CIA abandon mind-control? Why weren't successful experiments recreated on our Al Qaeda prisoners instead of water-boarding them? Where are the stories of KGB and FSB agents handing over thumbdrives packed with Russian state secrets to the CIA only to later have no memory of doing so ? Why kill RFK and MLK if the CIA could control their minds instead, and take advantage of their popularity to advance whatever crazy agenda you claim they had? Your logic fails Again |
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28th June 2018, 04:35 PM | #388 |
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Your own words rip the rug out from under your arguments.
You can be made to do almost anything whilst in a hypnotic state... but first you must be a willing participant in the hypnosis... a hypnotic state is a "consent state" of mind. Where is your evidence that Sirhan Sirhan was a willing participant to being put into a hypnotic state by a member of the Alphabet Soup? |
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28th June 2018, 04:54 PM | #389 |
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28th June 2018, 05:16 PM | #390 |
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Lets have their names, and some of the research papers they have published and had peer-reviewed... oh wait! Of course, you got all this information from evidence CT frootloop sources.
What, you mean evidence-free assertions like "some of the world leading researchers on hypnosis and mind control has stated that they are convinced that Sirhan was under some form of hypnotic mind control"? The technique you accuse Axxman300 of, is actually YOUR stock-in-trade, not his, or ours. |
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28th June 2018, 05:27 PM | #391 |
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The argument was that no-one can be hypnotized to do stuff that are contrary to deeply held moral convictions. Well, not according to the CIA, no.
All of the expertise that have studied Sirhan in person and/or his case are convinced that he was doing the shooting under the influence of hypnotic mind control, that he is exeptionally easy to hypnotize and that he genuinly doesn’t remember the shooting and the time period before the event. No-one told Sirhan that he would be hypnotized in order to be a patsy/diversion in an assassination of RFK. He was a manipulated/coerced victim not knowing what was done to him. It took almost forty years before he finally accepted the very thought of him being an unwitting victim of mind control, beacause he doesn’t remember anything from the programming. Well, that’s the point with hypnotic programming. The person doesn’t remember what has happened and certainly not if the memory blockage has been additionally reinforced by the controllers. 1. Yes, some individuals can be manipulated to do stuff against their (normal) will under the influence of hypnosis. In Sirhans case, he was shooting at targets at the range, when shooting at RFK. He was in ”range mode” induced by the girl in the polka-dot dress with a pinch in his shoulder as a ’cue’. 2. Yes, his so called confessions found in his note book was automatic writings also induced with a ’cue’, maybe from his short wave radio he was listening to every evening the months leading up to the event. Also this was experimented with in CIA’s Project ARTICHOKE with very positive results. 3. Yes, after falling from a horse Sirhan disappeard for a couple of weeks, with a completely changed personality when comming back home. Strange, since the doctor who treated him said that he just stitched his eyebrow and sent him home again an hour later. No brain damage. 4. The stable that hired Sirhan at the time of his accident was owned by associates to the Mafia Don, Moe Dalitz, a sworn enemy to the Kennedys going back to the Prohibition when he put out a contract on Joe Kennedy Sr. after a dispute over territory. RFK’s fight against Organized Crime as AG under JFK didn’t make this relationship warmer. 5. The cozy relationship between the CIA and Organized Crime when it came to assassinations was well established way back in the late fifties and nothing says that this was terminated 1968. 6. The security firm that ’protected’ RFK in the Ambassador was owned by another assassination celebrety, Robert Maheu, the CIA liaison to Organized Crime in their joint effort to assassinate Fidel Castro. Shall or should I continue? |
28th June 2018, 05:38 PM | #392 |
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28th June 2018, 06:12 PM | #393 |
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I fully acknowledge that a volunteer who gives themselves over to a hypnotist willingly can be made to do things that they wouldn't normally or willingly do when not in a hypnotic state. You don't need MKUltra or ARTIchoke for this; you can see it amply demonstrated by any two-bit stage hypnotist.... people eating raw onions because they are convinced it is an apple, people kissing complete strangers etc.
However, this was not the claim. The claim (made by NoOther) is that a person such as Sirhan Sirhan could be forcibly hypnotised against his will. So far, no evidence that this is possible has been provided other than some obscure claim from the 1890's about someone who used forced hypnosis as (IMO bogus) a defence in a murder trial. Pure jibber-jabber Where are the names and the peer reviewed research papers of these alleged people with "all of the expertise that have studied Sirhan in person" Don't bother if you are just going to continue to tout your own opinion or the opinions expressed on frootloopy CT site, as a substitute for actual evidence. If you can't come up with some names and the peer reviewed research papers of these alleged experts, I'm not interested. |
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28th June 2018, 06:19 PM | #394 |
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Is it anything behind the links that refutes the content in the memo from Morse Allen? If so, what? If not, why are you posting them?
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Why is this not ”intellectually honest”? Is it a fraudulent document?
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Yes, the CIA succeded to create unwitting assassins in their effort to eliminate among others, American officials (i.e. Senators, etc) if deemed prudent. Let it sink in. Ponder it.
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I belive that ca 70% of CIA’s work today is outsourced to the private sector. Very convenient isn’t it?
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Psychological warfare.
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How much did it cost in dollars? Who benefitted from these costs?
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28th June 2018, 06:28 PM | #395 |
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28th June 2018, 06:39 PM | #396 |
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Yes, we know who you are, but you forgot to answer:http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=377
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28th June 2018, 07:19 PM | #397 |
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28th June 2018, 08:17 PM | #398 |
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28th June 2018, 08:52 PM | #399 |
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28th June 2018, 08:55 PM | #400 |
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Why am I posting links to factual information?
You have not posted a link to the Allen memo.
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https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00050005-3.pdf And there are 20,000 documents for MKUltra.
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Which US intelligence agency would waste money on a failed concept? The NSA is 95% technical, meaning their focus is electronic intercept. The NRO is satellites, remote sensors, remote listening devices, and exotic devices for espionage. The FBI cannot use drugs to interrogate suspects under the Constitution, and has been extremely successful by just talking people into becoming CI's for them using the threat of long prison sentences.
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Meanwhile, the CIA supposedly had successfully controlled people's minds with drugs to get them to do their bidding, and yet didn't feel the need to use any of these techniques on Al Qaeda prisoners? Artichoke and MKUltra were ultimately looking for truth serums, you claim they were successful, but they never used them on the US's most important prisoners? You also suggest that the CIA has a functional mind-control capability, and yet we never used it on Al Qaeda prisoners so we could release them, and they could kill Al Qaeda leadership? If mind-control worked, why does the United States have any enemies at all?
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If the CIA could control people against their will, why didn't they control RFK and MLK? This stuff either works or it doesn't. |
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