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Tags holocaust denial , internet incidents , internet issues , neo-nazism

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Old 21st July 2018, 11:50 AM   #1
Allen773
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(Slate) Reddit's r/AskHistorians mod on Holocaust denial: "We ban it immediately."

Wasn't sure where to put this, but might as well do it here. Mods, feel free to move to a more appropriate subforum if there is one.

Quote:
There can be no debate with Holocaust deniers. That is a core principle of moderating the AskHistorians subreddit, one of the largest history forums on the internet—and a crucial lesson Mark Zuckerberg seemingly does not understand. Zuckerberg got into hot water on Wednesday when he stated that Facebook wouldn’t necessarily remove Holocaust deniers from its platform because people “get things wrong” and because it’s not always possible to understand the deniers’ intent.

This position fundamentally fails to grasp how Holocaust deniers spread anti-Semitic propaganda, underscoring a flaw in how the purportedly neutral platform thinks it ought to handle particularly odious ideas. Conversation is impossible if one side refuses to acknowledge the basic premise that facts are facts. This is why engaging deniers in such an effort means having already lost. And it is why AskHistorians, where I am one of the volunteer moderators, takes a strict stance on Holocaust denial: We ban it immediately. Deniers need a public forum to spread their lies and to sow doubt among readers not well-informed about history. By convincing people that they might have a point or two, they open the door for further radicalization in pursuit of their ultimate goal: to rehabilitate Nazism as an ideology in public discourse by distancing it from the key elements that make it so rightfully reviled—the genocide against Jews, Roma, Sinti, and others.
Quote:
We remove content that is racist, sexist, or anti-Semitic in nature and ban the offending users from commenting in our forum on a daily basis. While our rules are also designed to combat content like the denial of the genocides against American Indians, Armenians, and others, as well as talking points such as slavery revisionism, Nazi Germany and the Holocaust are two of the most popular subjects on our forum. Questions in these fields often attract scores of Holocaust deniers. This frequent interaction has again and again proven to us that Holocaust denial is a form of political agitation in the service of bigotry, racism, and anti-Semitism. It has also taught us a lot about the strategy of Holocaust deniers online and that the only effective way to stop them from spreading hate and lies is to refuse to give them a platform.
https://slate.com/technology/2018/07...hould-too.html

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Old 21st July 2018, 12:08 PM   #2
Venom
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What if they are the far-left type CTist who is genuinely just asking questions because they're just so hopelessly cynical and found something on the internets? ie 9/11 Truth
No hidden agenda but rather got sucked down the conspiracist rabbit hole.
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Old 21st July 2018, 12:21 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
What if they are the far-left type CTist who is genuinely just asking questions because they're just so hopelessly cynical and found something on the internets? ie 9/11 Truth
No hidden agenda but rather got sucked down the conspiracist rabbit hole.
The point is that the rabbit hole doesn't actually lead to posting on r/AskHistorians.
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Old 21st July 2018, 12:28 PM   #4
Venom
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The point is that the rabbit hole doesn't actually lead to posting on r/AskHistorians.
Apparently it does, otherwise they wouldn't have to ban the topic.
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Old 21st July 2018, 02:01 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
What if they are the far-left type CTist who is genuinely just asking questions because they're just so hopelessly cynical and found something on the internets? ie 9/11 Truth
No hidden agenda but rather got sucked down the conspiracist rabbit hole.
There is no such thing as "just asking questions" when it comes to Holocaust denial. The Holocaust happened; its an established fact and is not up for debate. There were millions of first hand witnesses to all the various aspects of the Holocaust.

Holocaust Denial is anti-Semitic propaganda, nothing more, nothing less. The best way to deal with it is to deny its advocates a platform.
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Old 21st July 2018, 03:22 PM   #6
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I'm against banning any form of hate speech. Responding to wrong ideas gives critical thinkers a chance to re-examine their beliefs and the evidence that supports them.

I'm not against shunting such speech to venues where it can better be dealt with. If the subreddit was being overrun by deniers to the extent that people with actual questions about history were being drowned out, then the ban was probably appropriate.
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Old 21st July 2018, 06:01 PM   #7
TubbaBlubba
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I'm against banning any form of hate speech. Responding to wrong ideas gives critical thinkers a chance to re-examine their beliefs and the evidence that supports them.

I'm not against shunting such speech to venues where it can better be dealt with. If the subreddit was being overrun by deniers to the extent that people with actual questions about history were being drowned out, then the ban was probably appropriate.
AH is a heavily moderated forum where answers are expected to be up to a scholarly standard with analysis from multiple perspectives. The lower end of what is acceptable would be something like this answer I've written on an unrelated topic a few days ago: How old is Zoroastrianism? Is it older than Hinduism?

The most extreme example of an answer I've seen is a 15,000-word treatise on the spread of Islam in Indonesia. It is really one of the finest sources for casual reading available and a fantastic place to get book recommendations and the like.

Something that is NOT acceptable there is asking questions in bad faith to start an argument. This happens with not just Holocaust deniers but also eg Jesus mythers. But also, the professional Holocaust historians there tend to find denialism so repulsive they would refuse to engage with a forum that permitted it.

I tend to agree that Holocaust denial is something people needs to know exists, they need to know the form of some common myths. They don't need to see deniers being debated, because unless you can force them into a controlled venue e.g. deposition or court of law, you'll never win the type of mud wrestling debate they engage in.
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Old 21st July 2018, 06:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Apparently it does, otherwise they wouldn't have to ban the topic.
Say you're in a maze. The path to the exit doesn't lead to a dead end.
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