|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
15th February 2013, 07:45 AM | #441 |
No Ordinary Rabbit
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Wyoming, NY
Posts: 6,757
|
Has anyone pointed out to yankee (who obviously has me on ignore) that the steel doesn't have to be "cut" by the wings? The force only has to break the weak points, not slice it like salami.
|
__________________
-------------------------------------- Stop asking me about that stupid fruity cereal...that's the OTHER rabbit! |
|
15th February 2013, 09:42 AM | #442 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,696
|
|
15th February 2013, 10:46 AM | #443 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 301
|
So, wait...
Why worry about the Density of the objects? Force = MASS x Acceleration, not Density X whatever. For the support to resist the impact, it has to accelerate (well, decelerate. not important.) the plane down to 0 m/s over the time of the impact. The ammount of force it applies to the Plane, the support has to resist as well. For every action, equal and opposite reaction. so regardless of the relative strength of the materials, the same force applies to both objects in the collision. |
15th February 2013, 10:52 AM | #444 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,167
|
The amount of time during the impact varies with the density of the objects colliding. So you have the same average force, but a less dense object will spread that over a slightly longer time because the object is larger per unit mass.
However, you don't have to look far to see that something still happens. Tim McVeigh destroyed half a building with high velocity air. I always thought the confusion would go away if collisions could be viewed at the atomic level. Atoms of aluminum and iron hitting each other gives a better picture for me. Neither type of atom is "soft." |
15th February 2013, 10:53 AM | #445 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
15th February 2013, 04:20 PM | #446 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,557
|
Quote:
Steve, I didn't say you and "Steve WarRan" were one and the same person. If you aren't, then you have found a soulmate. You are both at the apex of trutherism, posting Mt. Everest-sized non-sequiturs. Any other gibberish that "Steve WarRan" may have written is irrelevant. What is relevant is the particular piece of gibberish that you freely and willingly quoted. Now will you finally explain to us how does a Dun and Bradstreet listing relate to whether or not a firm had offices in the Twin Towers?, or ask your soulmate to explain it for you, or admit that the whole thing is nonsense? Like other truthers, you make yourself look foolish by never backing down, never admitting you made a mistake. If you admit that the article by "Steve WarRan" is a giant manure pile, and that it was foolish to cite it, you will not lose one shred of credibility. |
15th February 2013, 06:20 PM | #447 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,097
|
|
15th February 2013, 06:33 PM | #448 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,557
|
|
15th February 2013, 06:37 PM | #449 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
15th February 2013, 06:38 PM | #450 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
15th February 2013, 06:58 PM | #451 |
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,899
|
|
15th February 2013, 07:01 PM | #452 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
The moment it hits, parts at a time. Not 100% broken, that took a few whacks as it went through. Momentum carries all of it through anyway, whether all of the parts of the plane are connected or not.
You do understand momentum, don't you? I hope you don't go around cutting in front of trucks on the highway. Let's say an iceball hits a wide mesh, and the ice is hard enough to bend and break some of the wires. The iceball breaks in the process though. Would the iceball not go through the mesh, or would the pieces continue on past? What if the iceball was hollow in some places, but hard and moving really fast. The pieces would still go through the mesh, if the iceball was moving fast enough. Hopefully you can understand the metaphor above, and not get all hung up on ice vs. Mesh strength, etc. It's really a question of energy vs. Shear strength. Enough energy, the column shears. What is left of the wing doesn't stop there. If there is remaining energy, it keeps going, until all of it is spent. At some point it isn't a whole plane, it's fragments with their own energy. Anything left goes shooting out the other side of the building. And that matches what video, witnesses and models have all shown. You know, that pesky evidence you want to go away. Real people who saw real things. Real people who's remains were found afterwards, who were on the planes. Real plane parts, that match the plane inventory and have radar data tracking them all the way back to their point of origin. |
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
15th February 2013, 07:17 PM | #453 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
It's good to know you guys are working so hard to keep me honest, I'm not in this game to be right, but to learn the truth and I appreciate your perspectives. This is the closest thing to a peer review I am going to get, so thank you.
So back to the really hot fires. Rumors of fires so intense they could melt steel were started by the FDNY, NYPD, FEMA, etc. and were continued by the Truth Movement. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why they would all be singing the same song. The theme was the same everywhere for the first few years, everyone was talking about the molten steel, the dust, the missing debris.
Quote:
http://911conspiracy.wordpress.com/2...atures-at-wtc/ The media, the authorities, and the "Truth Movement" all singing the same tune until today when virtually everyone takes for granted the towers fell because of really hot fires. But there weren't any. I may have fallen for Steve WarRan's false lead about Dun and Bradstreet, but that doesn't mean the buildings were fully occupied, it just means I need to be more careful. I've been corrected on a few things already, so don't stop now. If the buildings were fully occupied, where are the floors to the left and right of the hole? Where is the raging inferno of office material on the nonexistent floors?, and even if a jet could do such a thing, in order to bend the panels like that, they couldn't have been backed by three acres of concrete each. I stand corrected on Dun and Bradstreet. Where are the floors? |
15th February 2013, 09:14 PM | #454 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,425
|
|
__________________
My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow. |
|
15th February 2013, 11:12 PM | #455 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
The trusses went wall to core.
The jet's fuselage was about 17 feet wide and after the cockpit was creamed against the steel the hollow tube of the fuselage and it's contents was hardly a battering ram, and even if it was it was only 17 feet wide. And hollow. So not only does the hollow fuselage damage the dense steel (is it the air pressure inside the cabin that gives it density?), it also damages an area twice its diameter and wipes out three acres of concrete, even thought it woudn't have touched most of the trusses. There are no bodies hanging in the hole, no desks piled up, no filing cabinets or cubicles, no doors or office partitions, or any window coverings visible in the hole. Nothing but building and nothing that could be identified as a truss or a concrete floor slab. It's remarkable how powerful your jet is, truly. It's amazing we spend a million dollars a pop on missiles when just a few 767s could have wiped out Tripoli. |
15th February 2013, 11:16 PM | #456 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
15th February 2013, 11:23 PM | #457 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
15th February 2013, 11:31 PM | #458 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,133
|
The floors were lightweight concrete poured over a very lightweight truss system. That they would be destroyed is not even something you can pretend away.
Oh and where did you get this idea about the FDNY talking about molten steel? |
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
|
|
15th February 2013, 11:43 PM | #459 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
Hoo hoo, molten steel.
12 Threads on the subject: Molten Steel VS Molten metal at GZ.... So there was melted steel Cotton melts steel! Today's XKCD: Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Debris removal specialist: Richard riggs saw melted beams, molten steel Merged: Molten metal observations Truthers: Why didn't the Hindenburg's steel melt? Is a Kerosene blaze hot enough to melt steel? Split Thread: Molten steel at the WTC towers Motlen Steel - Continuation Molten Steel Melting steel Amount of material analyzed in a lab and determined to be molten steel: 0 |
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
15th February 2013, 11:54 PM | #460 | ||
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
They were allegedly a lot of things except 'there'.
I am well-versed with the trusses, the dampers and the alleged concrete. They were more than just weight bearing trusses they, were designed to create a diaphram to withstand lateral wind shear equivalent to the impact of an ocean freighter. They kept the tower walls stiff and square. The trusses and concrete floors not damaged by the impact would have stayed-put. And before the big wall panels could have been pushed in like that, the three floors behind it had to have been removed. http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...back-small.jpg
The FDNY were among those who gave us the molten steel:
Quote:
Quote:
People turned to dust: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnnXT...layer_embedded All BS. |
||
15th February 2013, 11:57 PM | #461 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
16th February 2013, 12:00 AM | #462 |
Devilish Dictionarian
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
|
|
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles |
|
16th February 2013, 12:01 AM | #463 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,866
|
I keep saying this,
Wierzbicki, T. and Teng, X. (2003). “How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center.” J. of Impact Enrg. 28, pp.601–625. Oystein has kindly provided a summary of the article here. If you want a full copy of the paper, send me your e-mail and I will send it to you. |
16th February 2013, 12:14 AM | #464 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,425
|
The trusses? Yes they did go from the exterior “wall” to the core. And you seem to forget that they were lightweight trusses. And how were they anchored?
Still trying to hold onto the idea that the fuselage of an airliner is hollow? You didn’t learn much from your bush pilot buddies did you? You do realize that it took 1/3rd of a second for the aircraft to obliterate the area where it impacted don’t you? That’s simple math that even you should be able to do. But yet you think desks should be piled up against the wall, and maybe a few employees sitting around having coffee. And you have the nerve to call other people fools? |
__________________
My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow. |
|
16th February 2013, 12:31 AM | #465 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,425
|
|
__________________
My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow. |
|
16th February 2013, 12:43 AM | #466 | ||
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
Looks pretty hollow to me.
That 1/3 of a second won't mean much after the cockpit is wiped out on impact and the rest of the fuselage tube walls acting like a long cookie cutter of thin aluminum. You guys make it sound like the air in the cabin makes the jet a battering ram. Hollow Inside http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...-jet-crash.png
http://www.airliners.net/photo/South...8H4/2137913/L/ It should have been going the speed of sound, that would have obliterated that blast barrier, eh? Hollow and No Match Concrete. |
||
16th February 2013, 12:46 AM | #467 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
16th February 2013, 12:53 AM | #468 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
Name the untrained witnesses able to create a police museum exhibit in the largest city in the country. I can also name a dozen or so newspaper and television accounts of the same hogwash.
You guys want to wave it all off as "too big" and someone would talk with a conspiracy of this size;, but to whom would they talk? You deny the proof right before your eyes. It's really quite simple; this is the big lie. Look around, the evidence is everywhere, just look at the last 11 years of bloodshed. This barbarism must stop, and it all begins with speaking the truth. |
16th February 2013, 01:20 AM | #469 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
I have already said the building would sway, and it did according to the books I've ready, quite a bit.
What's your beef? You can't do your thinking until you have an expert tell you what to think? You can't envision what would happen to the hollow aluminum jet wing/fuselage if it struck an acre of laterally braced concrete sideways? It wouldn't look anything LIKE what the NIST/MIT/RMackey want you to think, that's for sure. That's why they didn't use a jet and in order to bend the colunns in, they had to remove some floors. Maybe you should take a class, maybe then you could picture how few options they had for the destruction of these towers. |
16th February 2013, 01:39 AM | #470 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
I have already commented on the obviously sleazy-propaganda piece here.
http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...aft-Impact.pdf Their language is ambiguous and emotional. They take up all the aluminum in the wing and roll it into a big ball of play-doh, but even though the large bulk of a wing's mass is between the fuselage and the engine, they redistributed it equally along the length of their model wing. They didn't model it like real a wing is constructed, they made a big, thick hollow machete for the sake of modeling ease. They then neglected to do the same favor for the exterior walls, once again modeling them as square boxes. They then say they can't calculate the truss system so they calculated it as a steel plate. Seriously, this passes as science? They began with a predetirmined destination and built a math problem as the vehicle to take them there. They are lying. |
16th February 2013, 02:16 AM | #471 | ||
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,830
|
And 175 tonnes.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, your claim about a lack of intense fire is pretty feeble when you look at the bigger picture. I was altering the levels on a higher res image to see if you could make out anything in the interior. The image I used contains slightly more than yours. I've deliberately left it level adjusted. http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4082/adjustedpo.jpg
So yes, no evidence of fire, providing you crop out all of the smoke and flames. The red square is not mine, and is picking out what is claimed to be a woman. Maybe all these people climbed up long ladders on cue, willing victims for the sacrifice. These are the people you are dishonouring with your crackpot nonsense. |
||
__________________
Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
|||
16th February 2013, 02:27 AM | #472 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
|
16th February 2013, 03:37 AM | #473 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 234
|
Just when you think Truthers couldn't get anymore disgusting. Besides that, you didn't address any of the post. Why not?
|
16th February 2013, 04:54 AM | #474 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,133
|
Have you ever seen a picture of the floor trusses? If you had then you'd know they were not very substantial.
Hmm, that's interesting. Do you think that the FDNY has the experience and equipment necessary to tell if anything molten is, in fact, steel? Because there's a big difference and people often simply substitute "steel" as a colloquialism for "metal." But, that's not really important. I once created a thread here where I asked for Truthers to explain why molten steel would be important. No one ever did this. Would you care to be the first? Why would molten steel be important yankee451? |
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
|
|
16th February 2013, 07:06 AM | #475 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,097
|
|
16th February 2013, 08:13 AM | #476 |
Skeptic not Atheist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West of Northshore MA
Posts: 24,748
|
Setting aside the obvious lie about the concrete. What the hell does this (bold) even mean?
Yes, the air does increase the density because it has mass, so it would also contribute to the momentum (along with everything else on the plane). Is this not obvious? You ask the oddest things for someone that claims to understand physics. |
__________________
"Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 |
|
16th February 2013, 08:41 AM | #477 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 897
|
|
16th February 2013, 09:00 AM | #478 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,502
|
Steve won't see this as he has me on ignore, but I'll take a stab at it... Hollow - empty; without contents; hence, without pith or substance; fruitless; worthless: as, a hollow victory; a hollow argument. Example: Steve's argument that missiles were used on 9/11 is a hollow argument. |
16th February 2013, 09:40 AM | #479 |
Muse
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 897
|
|
16th February 2013, 10:05 AM | #480 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,794
|
You are very willing to forgive people who began rumors that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people.
The reason the molten steel lie is significant is because it isn't just an isolated indiscretion. When FEMA, NASA, the USGS, the FDNY and the NYPD as well as dozens of media outlets AND the ironically-named 9/11 Truth Movement ALL sing the same tune and that tune is a blatant lie, it takes a gigantic leap of faith to keep telling yourself it was all an accident. Talk about a preponderence of evidence! |
Thread Tools | |
|
|