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19th February 2013, 01:03 AM | #521 |
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19th February 2013, 02:15 AM | #522 |
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I know I'm late to the party, but the cruise missile thing stuck with me.
A Tomahawk cruise missile weighs between 1.45 and 1.75 tons, this includes a 0.5 ton warhead. Being conservative, a 767-200/ER weighs about 150 tons (not even fully loaded, mind you. This is a considerable difference in terms of energy. I went through and did some quick calculations. Here's my breakdown. 150 tons (US) equates to ~136077 kg. I'm figuring that the plane wasn't quite at top speed, so 800 km/s, which is 222.24 m/s. Plug that into the good ol' e = 1/2 mv2 equation, and we get 3,360,481,069 kJ. Now. Take the known stats of a Tomahawk (being generous, say it's at the maximum weight and speed - so 1600 kg and 880 kmh (244.46 m/s)) and plug that in. We get 47,810,118 kJ. 3,360,481,069 kJ of energy versus 47,810,118 kJ. That's 70 times greater than the maximum energy a Tomahawk can deliver. A cruise missile is one of those snap packs you toss on the ground compared to a jet. |
19th February 2013, 04:09 AM | #523 |
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19th February 2013, 04:16 AM | #524 |
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Bull feathers. There is still obviously red primer on all of those columns, and they look more bashed-in than gouged. A ballistic object travelling from left to right would have scraped paint off. Of course, you did not notice that you have about threee floor slabs visible in your illustrasion here. The plane didn't haver to break the slabs lengthwise. The impact would have lifted them up out of their seats on the perimeter columns.
You assume that you know what it is supposed to look like and assume wrong every time. |
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19th February 2013, 04:18 PM | #525 |
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21st February 2013, 07:46 PM | #526 |
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I thought this thread was about molten concrete at the NYPD museum? It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.
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21st February 2013, 07:53 PM | #527 |
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the melting point of concrete varies between 1800-2500°C. (3272-4532 degrees F.)
I have a link but cannot post yet. bit of a conflict here don't ya think? |
21st February 2013, 07:57 PM | #528 |
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21st February 2013, 08:05 PM | #529 |
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21st February 2013, 08:23 PM | #530 |
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21st February 2013, 08:24 PM | #531 |
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21st February 2013, 08:32 PM | #532 |
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21st February 2013, 08:43 PM | #533 |
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21st February 2013, 08:48 PM | #534 |
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Oops, the original OP was this copied directly... http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
The concrete did not melt and the OP is a rant against police. Did you follow the link, or is reading about the OP too hard to do? The thread, the OP was a rant against the police. You did not read the OP. The tremendous heat and energy of the collapse and fires could cause the debris to form around the gun like concrete. The best explanation has already been posted. How heat and energy can form what is seen. You missed the original OP, here it is. http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/ That was the original copy and paste from his web site, it is nonsense to the nth degree. The thread is not really about melted concrete, or a mistake made by a museum. The gun looks like the concrete did melt around it; so? |
21st February 2013, 08:54 PM | #535 |
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"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine "The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus |
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22nd February 2013, 01:22 AM | #536 |
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"Looks like" is the operative phrase. Dampen a pile of finely crushed concrete and it will re-set to a fair degree. Hell, dampen a pile of limestone dust that never had cement near it and it will set to a fair degree.
"The stone dust in crushed limestone clings to the rocks when wet and hardens like cement as it dries." source All that's happened to this gun is that it became encased in hardened material. No concrete 'melting' required. |
22nd February 2013, 03:50 AM | #537 |
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Generally, if concrete gets hot enough to melt, it vitrifies. That is to say that when it cools, it will harden into a glass substance.
The material around those guns is definitely not at all glass-like. Thus, I would have to conclude that it was formed at far lower temeratures than the melting point of concrete. What is more likely is that the guns were buried under concrete that had been heated to a point at which it became crumbly. Subsequent exposure to water started the formation of rust. If you spend a lot of time on the beach around a built-up area, you will often find bits of rebar with some concrete stuck to it, along with stray beach pebbles, sand, sea shells and other odd objects. Iron oxide will leach into concrete or other materials and form a rather hard nodule. This is what we are seeing here. Yankee451 is making fun of the curator of the police museum for getting these things labelled in a misleading manner. There is really nothing to see here that has any bearing on the nature of the fires or the events which caused them. |
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22nd February 2013, 06:59 AM | #538 |
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Architect, Bart Voorsanger, an architect hired to save 'relics from the rubble,' did a 'hands-on' examination of a multi-ton 'meteorite' found in the WTC debris.
He stated for the record, as well as in a History Channel documentary, that it was a 'fused element of molten steel and concrete.' MM |
22nd February 2013, 07:18 AM | #539 |
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22nd February 2013, 08:03 AM | #540 |
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum |
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22nd February 2013, 08:04 AM | #541 |
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In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum |
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22nd February 2013, 08:32 AM | #542 |
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22nd February 2013, 08:51 AM | #543 |
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22nd February 2013, 03:49 PM | #544 |
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Crushed concrete, mixed with water, can re-set. Simple. See also the phenomenon of "beach rock", where you can find all sorts of odd things embedded into it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beachrock |
22nd February 2013, 10:03 PM | #545 |
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Quote:
One would think that the people responsible for respecting those who perished on 9/11 would do their homework before asserting such a thing.
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"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool." RJ Lee knows/knew it takes 2800F to melt iron and upwards of 3100F+ to vaporize (volatilize) lead.
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That's good to know, as I inserted RJ Lees findings from 2004 Is that what you think this is? A mistake? I supposed RJ Lee made a mistake as well? No I beleive the information was taken from somewhere, where I don't know. Can't locate Beth Spenelli for some reason.
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22nd February 2013, 10:20 PM | #546 |
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22nd February 2013, 10:27 PM | #547 |
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Mistake? lol
How could the concrete be melted, it means the gun would be melted too. Have you told them the concrete did not really melt, but it looks like it did? What did they say? Are you saying the concrete did melt? The museum does not lie and say 911 was an inside job, and making a mistake is not as bad as being nuts like 911 truth and spreading lies about thermite and some undefined fantasy inside job. Next you will be saying explosives were used because there were loud noises on 911. Quote-mining RJ Lee, and then making up a lie that the temperature in the WTC fires was 2800F and 3100F out of thin air (googled without thinking). How do you leap to lies so quickly? The temperatures in the WTC were what you get in big office fires; try looking that up. Is 911 an inside job for you? The temperatures in the WTC fires were normal for office fires. Some steel was exposed to temperatures as high as 1000C. Another report - RJ Lee never said how hot the fires were, he reported on the stuff found in a particular building - do you know what building it was? Do you know the samples were taken after clean up? No? You quote-mine, show me the temperature RJ Lee said on 911. ?? E=mgh was released on 911. More energy than 130 tons of TNT in each tower of Kinetic energy was released, which crumbled some concrete at room temperature and in fires; the energy also crushed ceiling tiles and wallboard. Most the dust was wallboard, insulations, and some was concrete. No thermite, no bombs, no inside job. You can look up the temperature concrete has problems. Lead was not vaporized at 3100F on 911, it was already on the mineral wool when it was installed. There was no melted steel on 911, but feel free to present some evidence. Extremely high temperatures are 1000C. You don't have to boil lead to get vaporized lead on stuff. What is your overall 911 conclusion? Stop tap-dancing and state your claims. Save some time. You mean this one?
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BTW, did you read the OP? Here is the original OP for you to read, where it appears to be a rant against NYPD, with zero stuff about melted concrete. http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/ It is not about RJ Lee, who found no thermite, and no evidence of melted steel, or melted concrete. http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/ Any comment on the original topic? Why can't you tell the museum the concrete did not melt? What else will you present by cherrypicking RJ Lee? Something like this?
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Using RJ Lee to support melted concrete is silly. What were you trying to imply? |
22nd February 2013, 11:55 PM | #549 |
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23rd February 2013, 08:39 AM | #550 |
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People were evacuating those towers all the way until they collapsed using the buildings vertical core-centered circulation (AKA stair wells) where these alleged incendiaries are claimed to have had to been. Not a single one reported suspicious burning, odors, or otherwise that would have indicated an active process. Reports coming in weeks after the fact come far too late to establish any link to the immediate collapse event nor will you be capable of providing photographic or any other visual evidence showing damage to the structural elements that can connect with the time of the collapses.... so.... best of luck trying to establish any meaningful connection between what those witnesses "reported" - if we take their worlds literally - and what was relevant to the immediate fate of the buildings
As far as arguing is concerned... this is not new, it's been argued since 2006, and stuff that didn't work 7 years ago isn't going to pass the sniff test now, "Melted" no. But all of those materials essentially cooked in a debris stew for several weeks which was bound to make for some "interesting" finds. If you want to connect this to incendiaries go right ahead, but you have jump through many hoops to make such a claim relevant to events that took place long before these pieces were found and long before they had a chance to "stew" in that environment after the fact. |
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23rd February 2013, 12:20 PM | #551 |
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In the interests of balance, fairness and other lovey-dovey stuff ...
I disagree totally with the former, but agree with the latter. If you want max temperatures open up those vents. If you want useful household heat it might be a different story. The proof of this pudding would be where the fire stops flaming because the vents are shut, but continues to smoulder at low temps for a long time. |
23rd February 2013, 12:25 PM | #552 |
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Rollex - have you contacted the museum and asked them to clarify that particular plaque on that exhibit?
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23rd February 2013, 04:56 PM | #553 |
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23rd February 2013, 06:33 PM | #554 |
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Quote:
"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool." Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize" Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one. |
23rd February 2013, 06:51 PM | #555 |
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because it's wrong.
Lead does not need to volatilize to form lead oxide: molten lead does this. |
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23rd February 2013, 06:58 PM | #556 |
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23rd February 2013, 07:00 PM | #557 |
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23rd February 2013, 07:02 PM | #558 |
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23rd February 2013, 07:55 PM | #559 |
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Did you read the real OP yet?
http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/ The real OP, did you read it. Did you miss it?> http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/ It is about police corruption. LOL, it is stupid, pure nonsense. LOL. What is your point. The report says high temperature. Stop tap dancing, stop the gish gallop, stop moving the goal posts. Come out and state your theory on this subject. You already missed the OP, it was removed because 451 posts his web site with over sized photos and all, as the OP. Copy and paste woo, which essentially was an attack on the NY police. Did concrete melt. Then how did a gun survive? The debris from the WTC must of formed around the weapons, under great pressure, water from firefighting, rust from the fires and water, caused the debris to form into what looks like melted concrete to the layperson, even me maybe. We should all ask the museum to get an expert in this subject to explain exactly how the exhibit was formed in the massive collapse, and fires with more heat than an atom bomb, a small one. Golly gee, the heat from the jet fuel was equal to 315 tons of TNT in each plane, guess what the pre collapse office fires were. Do you want me to use joules? What is you point. Stop wasting time and declare yourself. Be a real JREFer, tell the truth early and often. Some people have explained how the "melted concrete gun" was formed, we could contact the museum and explain whey the label might be misleading. That is all we can do. If you love to quote mine RJ Lee and make up your own temperatures involved on 911, have at it. But stop using RJ Lee to push your fake stuff. It proves you failed to read and comprehend the RJ Lee paper, if you ever did. I have had the paper for years, do you need a copy? Stop beating around the bush. Was 911 an inside job, or what? Don't be shy. Maybe you could look up how lead could be on stuff... Maybe not. How do you know Spenelli did it? Is that Beth related to Beth Spinelli? Which one did it? http://www.nycpolicemuseum.org/collections/index.html Beth Spinelli Registrar/Collections Manager tel: (212) 480-3100 x127 email: bspinelli@nycpm.org Appointment hours are Tuesday-Thursday 11AM-4PM. |
24th February 2013, 06:51 PM | #560 |
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