IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 19th February 2013, 01:03 AM   #521
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
Originally Posted by leftysergeant View Post
Did you know that you can blow a man's brains out or puncture his liver with a blank round?
A load of hot gases can penetrate bone? Who would have thought it?

I wonder what yankee451 will make of that?
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2013, 02:15 AM   #522
Vermonter
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
I know I'm late to the party, but the cruise missile thing stuck with me.

A Tomahawk cruise missile weighs between 1.45 and 1.75 tons, this includes a 0.5 ton warhead. Being conservative, a 767-200/ER weighs about 150 tons (not even fully loaded, mind you. This is a considerable difference in terms of energy.

I went through and did some quick calculations. Here's my breakdown.

150 tons (US) equates to ~136077 kg. I'm figuring that the plane wasn't quite at top speed, so 800 km/s, which is 222.24 m/s. Plug that into the good ol' e = 1/2 mv2 equation, and we get 3,360,481,069 kJ.

Now. Take the known stats of a Tomahawk (being generous, say it's at the maximum weight and speed - so 1600 kg and 880 kmh (244.46 m/s)) and plug that in. We get 47,810,118 kJ.

3,360,481,069 kJ of energy versus 47,810,118 kJ. That's 70 times greater than the maximum energy a Tomahawk can deliver. A cruise missile is one of those snap packs you toss on the ground compared to a jet.
Vermonter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2013, 04:09 AM   #523
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A load of hot gases can penetrate bone? Who would have thought it?

I wonder what yankee451 will make of that?
Well, not easily. It helps if you load a cotton wad about the size of a cigarette filter into it to keep the powder from spilling out of the cartidge.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2013, 04:16 AM   #524
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
The penetrating warhead is capable of punching through hardened bunkers and weighs 900 lbs and measures 12x60 inches.

the gouge in the below image is in a column measuring 14 inches. Based on the column size, that gouge looks to be about 12 inches wide, which means it could easily have been caused by a dense metal penetrating warhead of the same diameter.

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...-columns-2.jpg



Lookie here - more 12 inch gouges:
http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uplo...-closeup-1.png

Edited by LashL:  Changed oversized image to link, as overly large images mess with the formatting of the thread.
Bull feathers. There is still obviously red primer on all of those columns, and they look more bashed-in than gouged. A ballistic object travelling from left to right would have scraped paint off. Of course, you did not notice that you have about threee floor slabs visible in your illustrasion here. The plane didn't haver to break the slabs lengthwise. The impact would have lifted them up out of their seats on the perimeter columns.

You assume that you know what it is supposed to look like and assume wrong every time.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th February 2013, 04:18 PM   #525
Redwood
Graduate Poster
 
Redwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,557
Originally Posted by Animal View Post
Friday October 12th, 1984
Jon-Erik Hexum died on the set of the CBS television series "COVER UP".

He was apparently unaware that at close range, a blank can cause great damage. The explosion drove a quarter-sized piece of his skull far into his brain. The paper wadding of the straight-walled blank cartridge went straight into his temple and forced a bone chip to lodge in his brain.
Ugh. I get sick, just thinking about that. The paper wadding was of little import. The jet of gases would have been enough. Essentially, Hexum held a shape charge to his head, and tripped the detonator.
Redwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 07:46 PM   #526
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
I thought this thread was about molten concrete at the NYPD museum? It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 07:53 PM   #527
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
the melting point of concrete varies between 1800-2500°C. (3272-4532 degrees F.)
I have a link but cannot post yet.

bit of a conflict here don't ya think?
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 07:57 PM   #528
TJM
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
TJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,899
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
the melting point of concrete varies between 1800-2500°C. (3272-4532 degrees F.)
I have a link but cannot post yet.

bit of a conflict here don't ya think?
Just post your link without the "www". We can figure out the rest.
TJM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 08:05 PM   #529
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
I thought this thread was about molten concrete at the NYPD museum? It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.
Obvious sign of an inside job.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 08:23 PM   #530
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
Just post your link without the "www". We can figure out the rest.
weldcare.co.uk/app10.htm
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 08:24 PM   #531
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Obvious sign of an inside job.
I wouldn't say that....but it is weird.
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 08:32 PM   #532
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
I thought this thread was about molten concrete at the NYPD museum? It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.
Would the gun melt too? Have you heard of mistakes, or simile?

No, the thread is how Yankee451 hates police, and denies those who died on 911. Did you read the OP, the rant against the police?
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 08:43 PM   #533
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Would the gun melt too? Have you heard of mistakes, or simile?

No, the thread is how Yankee451 hates police, and denies those who died on 911. Did you read the OP, the rant against the police?
No. I would prefer to keep on subject. From the picture in my possession it looks like the gun melted all except for the tip of the chamber...i wish I could upload my picture. Its melted into the concrete which needs to reach a ridiculous temp.
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 08:48 PM   #534
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
No. I would prefer to keep on subject. From the picture in my possession it looks like the gun melted all except for the tip of the chamber...i wish I could upload my picture. Its melted into the concrete which needs to reach a ridiculous temp.
Oops, the original OP was this copied directly... http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
The concrete did not melt and the OP is a rant against police. Did you follow the link, or is reading about the OP too hard to do?

The thread, the OP was a rant against the police. You did not read the OP.

The tremendous heat and energy of the collapse and fires could cause the debris to form around the gun like concrete. The best explanation has already been posted. How heat and energy can form what is seen.

You missed the original OP, here it is. http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/ That was the original copy and paste from his web site, it is nonsense to the nth degree. The thread is not really about melted concrete, or a mistake made by a museum. The gun looks like the concrete did melt around it; so?

Last edited by beachnut; 21st February 2013 at 08:54 PM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st February 2013, 08:54 PM   #535
Justin39640
Illuminator
 
Justin39640's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,202
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Oops, the original OP was this copied directly... http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
The concrete did not melt and the OP is a rant against police. Did you follow the link, or is reading about the OP too hard to do?

The thread, the OP was a rant against the police. You did not read the OP.

The tremendous heat and energy of the collapse and fires could cause the debris to form around the gun like concrete. The best explanation has already been posted. How heat and energy can form what is seen.

You missed the original OP, here it is.That was the original copy and paste from his web site, it is nonsense to the nth degree. The thread is not really about melted concrete, or a mistake made by a museum. The gun looks like the concrete did melt around it; so?

Holograms
__________________
"I joined this forum to learn about the people who think that 9/11 was an inside job. I've learned that they believe nutty things and are not very good at explaining them." - FineWine
"The agencies involved with studying the WTC collapse no more needed to consider explosives than the police need to consider brain cancer in a shooting death." - ElMondoHummus
Justin39640 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 01:22 AM   #536
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
No. I would prefer to keep on subject. From the picture in my possession it looks like the gun melted all except for the tip of the chamber...i wish I could upload my picture. Its melted into the concrete which needs to reach a ridiculous temp.
"Looks like" is the operative phrase. Dampen a pile of finely crushed concrete and it will re-set to a fair degree. Hell, dampen a pile of limestone dust that never had cement near it and it will set to a fair degree.

"The stone dust in crushed limestone clings to the rocks when wet and hardens like cement as it dries." source

All that's happened to this gun is that it became encased in hardened material. No concrete 'melting' required.

Last edited by GlennB; 22nd February 2013 at 02:13 AM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 03:50 AM   #537
leftysergeant
Penultimate Amazing
 
leftysergeant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
the melting point of concrete varies between 1800-2500°C. (3272-4532 degrees F.)
I have a link but cannot post yet.

bit of a conflict here don't ya think?
Generally, if concrete gets hot enough to melt, it vitrifies. That is to say that when it cools, it will harden into a glass substance.

The material around those guns is definitely not at all glass-like. Thus, I would have to conclude that it was formed at far lower temeratures than the melting point of concrete. What is more likely is that the guns were buried under concrete that had been heated to a point at which it became crumbly. Subsequent exposure to water started the formation of rust. If you spend a lot of time on the beach around a built-up area, you will often find bits of rebar with some concrete stuck to it, along with stray beach pebbles, sand, sea shells and other odd objects.

Iron oxide will leach into concrete or other materials and form a rather hard nodule. This is what we are seeing here.

Yankee451 is making fun of the curator of the police museum for getting these things labelled in a misleading manner. There is really nothing to see here that has any bearing on the nature of the fires or the events which caused them.
__________________
No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.
leftysergeant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 06:59 AM   #538
Miragememories
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,473
Architect, Bart Voorsanger, an architect hired to save 'relics from the rubble,' did a 'hands-on' examination of a multi-ton 'meteorite' found in the WTC debris.

He stated for the record, as well as in a History Channel documentary, that it was a 'fused element of molten steel and concrete.'

MM
Miragememories is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 07:18 AM   #539
Animal
Master Poster
 
Animal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,097
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Architect, Bart Voorsanger, an architect hired to save 'relics from the rubble,' did a 'hands-on' examination of a multi-ton 'meteorite' found in the WTC debris.

He stated for the record, as well as in a History Channel documentary, that it was a 'fused element of molten steel and concrete.'

MM
I wish I had a nickel for every time an architect said something wrong. I would have more money than BIll Gates and Warren Buffet combined.
Animal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 08:03 AM   #540
BasqueArch
Graduate Poster
 
BasqueArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,871
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Architect, Bart Voorsanger, an architect hired to save 'relics from the rubble,' did a 'hands-on' examination of a multi-ton 'meteorite' found in the WTC debris.

He stated for the record, as well as in a History Channel documentary, that it was a 'fused element of molten steel and concrete.'

MM
You mean like the not-melted melted steel and the not-burned burnt paper?







MM has been around long enough to know this whack-a-mole claim has been debunked long ago and often. The first time is a mistake. Thereafter it's a lie.
__________________
In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum
BasqueArch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 08:04 AM   #541
BasqueArch
Graduate Poster
 
BasqueArch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,871
Originally Posted by Animal View Post
I wish I had a nickel for every time an architect said something wrong. I would have more money than BIll Gates and Warren Buffet combined.
I wish I had a nickel for every time a not-Truther said something wrong. I would have more money than BIll Gates, Warren Buffet and Animal combined.
__________________
In Your Guts You Know They're Nuts. "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true." -Kierkegaard . "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane. "- Marcus Aurelius
A Truther is a True Believer convinced by lies. You can't reason someone out of a thing they weren't reasoned into.There's a sucker born every minute-Barnum
BasqueArch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 08:32 AM   #542
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
 
LSSBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery
Posts: 20,071
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
Architect, Bart Voorsanger, an architect hired to save 'relics from the rubble,' did a 'hands-on' examination of a multi-ton 'meteorite' found in the WTC debris.

He stated for the record, as well as in a History Channel documentary, that it was a 'fused element of molten steel and concrete.'

MM
Architect = metallurgist?
__________________
"You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles
LSSBB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 08:51 AM   #543
TJM
Potsing Whiled Runk
Tagger
 
TJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 21,899
Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
molten steel
Ladies and gentlemen, the turbo facepalm:

TJM is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 03:49 PM   #544
Redwood
Graduate Poster
 
Redwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,557
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
I thought this thread was about molten concrete at the NYPD museum? It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.
Crushed concrete, mixed with water, can re-set. Simple. See also the phenomenon of "beach rock", where you can find all sorts of odd things embedded into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beachrock

Last edited by Redwood; 22nd February 2013 at 03:54 PM. Reason: more info
Redwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 10:03 PM   #545
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
Quote:
The concrete did not melt
That contradicts what the NYPD curator at the time, one Beth Spenelli had put on the plaque. It says "fire temperatures were so intense that concrete melted like lava around anything in it's path"

One would think that the people responsible for respecting those who perished on 9/11 would do their homework before asserting such a thing.


Quote:
The tremendous heat and energy of the collapse and fires could cause the debris to form around the gun like concrete.
What would that debris be? Interestingly your quote brings a paper to mind from 2004 by RJ Lee group.

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

RJ Lee knows/knew it takes 2800F to melt iron and upwards of 3100F+ to vaporize (volatilize) lead.

Quote:
The thread is not really about melted concrete, or a mistake made by a museum
.

That's good to know, as I inserted RJ Lees findings from 2004
Is that what you think this is? A mistake? I supposed RJ Lee made a mistake as well? No I beleive the information was taken from somewhere, where I don't know. Can't locate Beth Spenelli for some reason.

Quote:
The gun looks like the concrete did melt around it; so?
So if it's concrete then something other then fire was in the building; right?
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 10:20 PM   #546
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
Quote:
the guns were buried under concrete that had been heated to a point at which it became crumbly.
What temperature does concrete become "crumbly"?
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 10:27 PM   #547
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
That contradicts what the NYPD curator at the time, one Beth Spenelli had put on the plaque. It says "fire temperatures were so intense that concrete melted like lava around anything in it's path"

One would think that the people responsible for respecting those who perished on 9/11 would do their homework before asserting such a thing.

What would that debris be? Interestingly your quote brings a paper to mind from 2004 by RJ Lee group.

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

RJ Lee knows/knew it takes 2800F to melt iron and upwards of 3100F+ to vaporize (volatilize) lead.

That's good to know, as I inserted RJ Lees findings from 2004
Is that what you think this is? A mistake? I supposed RJ Lee made a mistake as well? No I believe the information was taken from somewhere, where I don't know. Can't locate Beth Spenelli for some reason.

So if it's concrete then something other then fire was in the building; right?
Mistake? lol
How could the concrete be melted, it means the gun would be melted too. Have you told them the concrete did not really melt, but it looks like it did? What did they say? Are you saying the concrete did melt? The museum does not lie and say 911 was an inside job, and making a mistake is not as bad as being nuts like 911 truth and spreading lies about thermite and some undefined fantasy inside job.

Next you will be saying explosives were used because there were loud noises on 911.

Quote-mining RJ Lee, and then making up a lie that the temperature in the WTC fires was 2800F and 3100F out of thin air (googled without thinking). How do you leap to lies so quickly? The temperatures in the WTC were what you get in big office fires; try looking that up.

Is 911 an inside job for you?

Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
What temperature does concrete become "crumbly"?
The temperatures in the WTC fires were normal for office fires. Some steel was exposed to temperatures as high as 1000C. Another report - RJ Lee never said how hot the fires were, he reported on the stuff found in a particular building - do you know what building it was? Do you know the samples were taken after clean up? No? You quote-mine, show me the temperature RJ Lee said on 911. ??

E=mgh was released on 911. More energy than 130 tons of TNT in each tower of Kinetic energy was released, which crumbled some concrete at room temperature and in fires; the energy also crushed ceiling tiles and wallboard. Most the dust was wallboard, insulations, and some was concrete. No thermite, no bombs, no inside job.
You can look up the temperature concrete has problems.

Lead was not vaporized at 3100F on 911, it was already on the mineral wool when it was installed. There was no melted steel on 911, but feel free to present some evidence. Extremely high temperatures are 1000C. You don't have to boil lead to get vaporized lead on stuff.

What is your overall 911 conclusion? Stop tap-dancing and state your claims. Save some time.


Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
What would that debris be? Interestingly your quote brings a paper to mind from 2004 by RJ Lee group.
?
You mean this one?

Quote:
Damage Assessment 130 Liberty Street Property
Report Date: December 2003

WTC Dust Signature Report

Composition and Morphology
... Where does it say
Quote:
2800F to melt iron and upwards of 3100F+ to vaporize
Page number?

BTW, did you read the OP? Here is the original OP for you to read, where it appears to be a rant against NYPD, with zero stuff about melted concrete. http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/

It is not about RJ Lee, who found no thermite, and no evidence of melted steel, or melted concrete.

http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
Any comment on the original topic? Why can't you tell the museum the concrete did not melt?

What else will you present by cherrypicking RJ Lee? Something like this?
Quote:
and see the "iron spheres" that they found - along with evidence of high temperature melting (not typical office fire temperature type melting). http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4&postcount=13
But RJ Lee says...
Quote:
Particles of materials that had been modified by exposure to high temperature, such as spherical particles of iron and silicates, are common in WTC Dust because of the fire that accompanied the WTC Event, but are not common in “normal” interior office dust.
RJ Lee debunks thermite, but it take reading comprehension.
Quote:
Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents (RJ Lee report)
RJ Lee says the rich iron spheres are from fires in the WTC because there was iron-bearing building components.

Using RJ Lee to support melted concrete is silly. What were you trying to imply?

Last edited by beachnut; 22nd February 2013 at 11:30 PM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 11:46 PM   #548
Matthew Cline
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 897
Originally Posted by yankee451 View Post
Is this your way of saying yes the USGS maps are correct, that the ground was 1100 degrees. Under ground. No air to 'combust' all that slow-burning gasoline.
A coal seam fireWP can burn for years even though they're underground.
Matthew Cline is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd February 2013, 11:55 PM   #549
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Originally Posted by Matthew Cline View Post
A coal seam fireWP can burn for years even though they're underground.
Irony, he was sitting next to his wood-stove; to get your highest temperatures and longest burns in a wood-stove, you cutoff the air supply to the minimum.


Self-debunking. As he insults education, book learning, physics, the dead of 911, intelligence, and more.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 08:39 AM   #550
Grizzly Bear
このマスクによっ
 
Grizzly Bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,866
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
So if it's concrete then something other then fire was in the building; right?
People were evacuating those towers all the way until they collapsed using the buildings vertical core-centered circulation (AKA stair wells) where these alleged incendiaries are claimed to have had to been. Not a single one reported suspicious burning, odors, or otherwise that would have indicated an active process. Reports coming in weeks after the fact come far too late to establish any link to the immediate collapse event nor will you be capable of providing photographic or any other visual evidence showing damage to the structural elements that can connect with the time of the collapses.... so.... best of luck trying to establish any meaningful connection between what those witnesses "reported" - if we take their worlds literally - and what was relevant to the immediate fate of the buildings

As far as arguing is concerned... this is not new, it's been argued since 2006, and stuff that didn't work 7 years ago isn't going to pass the sniff test now,

Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.
"Melted" no. But all of those materials essentially cooked in a debris stew for several weeks which was bound to make for some "interesting" finds. If you want to connect this to incendiaries go right ahead, but you have jump through many hoops to make such a claim relevant to events that took place long before these pieces were found and long before they had a chance to "stew" in that environment after the fact.
__________________

Last edited by Grizzly Bear; 23rd February 2013 at 08:49 AM.
Grizzly Bear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 12:20 PM   #551
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wales
Posts: 31,398
Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
Irony, he was sitting next to his wood-stove; to get your highest temperatures and longest burns in a wood-stove, you cutoff the air supply to the minimum.
In the interests of balance, fairness and other lovey-dovey stuff ...

I disagree totally with the former, but agree with the latter.

If you want max temperatures open up those vents. If you want useful household heat it might be a different story.

The proof of this pudding would be where the fire stops flaming because the vents are shut, but continues to smoulder at low temps for a long time.

Last edited by GlennB; 23rd February 2013 at 12:21 PM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 12:25 PM   #552
Sunstealer
Illuminator
 
Sunstealer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,128
Rollex - have you contacted the museum and asked them to clarify that particular plaque on that exhibit?
Sunstealer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 04:56 PM   #553
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post
Rollex - have you contacted the museum and asked them to clarify that particular plaque on that exhibit?
I thought the shooting range was in building 5.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 06:33 PM   #554
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
Quote:
Lead was not vaporized at 3100F on 911,
Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 06:51 PM   #555
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
because it's wrong.

Lead does not need to volatilize to form lead oxide: molten lead does this.
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 06:58 PM   #556
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,617
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
Not so - your logic is wrong.

Last edited by ozeco41; 23rd February 2013 at 07:01 PM.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 07:00 PM   #557
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
Below 1000 degrees, under certain circumstances, below 700 degrees. And?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 07:02 PM   #558
ozeco41
Philosopher
 
ozeco41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia
Posts: 7,617
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Below 1000 degrees, under certain circumstances, below 700 degrees. And?
...and his logic is still wrong.
ozeco41 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd February 2013, 07:55 PM   #559
beachnut
Penultimate Amazing
 
beachnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Dog House
Posts: 26,122
Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
Did you read the real OP yet?
http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
The real OP, did you read it. Did you miss it?>
http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
It is about police corruption. LOL, it is stupid, pure nonsense.

LOL. What is your point. The report says high temperature.

Stop tap dancing, stop the gish gallop, stop moving the goal posts. Come out and state your theory on this subject. You already missed the OP, it was removed because 451 posts his web site with over sized photos and all, as the OP. Copy and paste woo, which essentially was an attack on the NY police.

Did concrete melt. Then how did a gun survive?

The debris from the WTC must of formed around the weapons, under great pressure, water from firefighting, rust from the fires and water, caused the debris to form into what looks like melted concrete to the layperson, even me maybe. We should all ask the museum to get an expert in this subject to explain exactly how the exhibit was formed in the massive collapse, and fires with more heat than an atom bomb, a small one. Golly gee, the heat from the jet fuel was equal to 315 tons of TNT in each plane, guess what the pre collapse office fires were. Do you want me to use joules?

What is you point. Stop wasting time and declare yourself. Be a real JREFer, tell the truth early and often.

Some people have explained how the "melted concrete gun" was formed, we could contact the museum and explain whey the label might be misleading. That is all we can do.

If you love to quote mine RJ Lee and make up your own temperatures involved on 911, have at it. But stop using RJ Lee to push your fake stuff. It proves you failed to read and comprehend the RJ Lee paper, if you ever did. I have had the paper for years, do you need a copy?

Stop beating around the bush. Was 911 an inside job, or what? Don't be shy.


Originally Posted by Rollex View Post
That contradicts what the NYPD curator at the time, one Beth Spenelli had put on the plaque. ... ?
Maybe you could look up how lead could be on stuff... Maybe not.
How do you know Spenelli did it? Is that Beth related to Beth Spinelli? Which one did it?

http://www.nycpolicemuseum.org/collections/index.html

Beth Spinelli
Registrar/Collections Manager
tel: (212) 480-3100 x127
email: bspinelli@nycpm.org
Appointment hours are Tuesday-Thursday 11AM-4PM.

Last edited by beachnut; 23rd February 2013 at 08:42 PM.
beachnut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th February 2013, 06:51 PM   #560
Rollex
New Blood
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
Not so - your logic is wrong.
How so?...and its not my logic; its RJ Lee's. Are you smarter than RJ Lee?
Rollex is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:58 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.