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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 18th May 2018, 04:04 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Yes, thanks so that would have been in Germany proper. I wonder how many were arrested in the occupied territories? Thanks for looking that up I couldn't find anything however on a different note I did find this quote about being a 'National socialist"
No, not only in Germany. And not only Germans were taken into protective custody or other extra-judicial detention in the camp system, whether in the Reich or outside the Reich. Without trying to be exhaustive, outside the Reich were the KLs of the Auschwitz complex, Majdanek (KL Lublin), KL Plaszow, KL Riga- Kaiserwald, KL Stutthof, KL-Vaivara, KL-Warschaur, KL-Natzweiler-Struthof, KL_Kauen, arguably KL Gross-Rosen. (This is leaving aside non-WVHA camps like Starachowice, Skarżysko-Kamienna, the Smelt camps, camps associated with the Todt organization, etc.) I will look up the %'s of German vs non-German inmates. The scale is quite large, just within the KL system - leaving aside work reeducation camps, special camps, camps run by the Wehrmacht, camps associated with business or labor operations, and so on.
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Old 19th May 2018, 05:39 AM   #602
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From Wachsmann’s book KL: during 1943 the composition of the inmate population in the KLs changed as mass arrests were carried out throughout Europe (NN, Himmler’s slave labor orders, security and other concerns in the East, etc) - thus, the % of German prisoners in the KL system fell dramatically (e.g., in Buchenwald the % of Germans decreased from 35% to 13% - and Soviet and Polish prisoners were now over 60% of the inmate population at Buchenwald - there were about the same number of French prisoners as Germans in the camp); in 1944 there were 200,000 women in the KL system (almost 40% of the prisoners at that time); during 1944 about 2/3 of new inmates were Jews, e.g., many from the Schmelt camps (sorry for typo on these camps above) and of course many Hungarian Jews.

Other sources on individual camps detail Wachsmann's point: as the Allies moved east from Normandy, camps in western Europe were emptied and their inmates moved into German KLs. At the same time, as the the Germans were pushed out of the Baltics and eastern Poland, camps in the east were similarly evacuated. For example, by late 1944 in Dachau there were almost 65,000 inmates from Hungary, Poland, the USSR, France, and Italy - and just 7,500 from Germany. In all, inmates at Dachau in 1944 came from 26 countries besides Germany.

My (quite chaotic) notes on the KLs don’t give system-wide totals, just directional cases and examples, with a large majority of prisoners in the KL system by 1943 coming from countries other than Germany.

By contrast, within the regular German prison system, in 1944, according to Wachsmann’s estimate in Hitler’s Prisons, there were about 200,000 prisoners (vs 500,000+ KL inmates that year). Wachsmann says that by the late 1930s about half those in the prison system were inmates who would not have been incarcerated in Weimar but were imprisoned due to the new laws and stricter policies of the Third Reich (different and greater use of protective custody, employment of security confinement for so-called habitual criminals). Wachsmann estimates that there were nearly 60,000 political prisoners in the regular prison system, including 13,000 Czechs and many Poles; also a few 1000s NN prisoners from western Europe, which means that even in regular German prisons there were many 1000s of foreign inmates incarcerated for political and security reasons.
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Old 19th May 2018, 05:35 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
From Wachsmann’s book KL: during 1943 the composition of the inmate population in the KLs changed as mass arrests were carried out throughout Europe (NN, Himmler’s slave labor orders, security and other concerns in the East, etc) - thus, the % of German prisoners in the KL system fell dramatically (e.g., in Buchenwald the % of Germans decreased from 35% to 13% - and Soviet and Polish prisoners were now over 60% of the inmate population at Buchenwald - there were about the same number of French prisoners as Germans in the camp); in 1944 there were 200,000 women in the KL system (almost 40% of the prisoners at that time); during 1944 about 2/3 of new inmates were Jews, e.g., many from the Schmelt camps (sorry for typo on these camps above) and of course many Hungarian Jews.

Other sources on individual camps detail Wachsmann's point: as the Allies moved east from Normandy, camps in western Europe were emptied and their inmates moved into German KLs. At the same time, as the the Germans were pushed out of the Baltics and eastern Poland, camps in the east were similarly evacuated. For example, by late 1944 in Dachau there were almost 65,000 inmates from Hungary, Poland, the USSR, France, and Italy - and just 7,500 from Germany. In all, inmates at Dachau in 1944 came from 26 countries besides Germany.

My (quite chaotic) notes on the KLs don’t give system-wide totals, just directional cases and examples, with a large majority of prisoners in the KL system by 1943 coming from countries other than Germany.

By contrast, within the regular German prison system, in 1944, according to Wachsmann’s estimate in Hitler’s Prisons, there were about 200,000 prisoners (vs 500,000+ KL inmates that year). Wachsmann says that by the late 1930s about half those in the prison system were inmates who would not have been incarcerated in Weimar but were imprisoned due to the new laws and stricter policies of the Third Reich (different and greater use of protective custody, employment of security confinement for so-called habitual criminals). Wachsmann estimates that there were nearly 60,000 political prisoners in the regular prison system, including 13,000 Czechs and many Poles; also a few 1000s NN prisoners from western Europe, which means that even in regular German prisons there were many 1000s of foreign inmates incarcerated for political and security reasons.

Excellent information I appreciate your effort in finding this out. I look at that and compare that to the number of people given sentences in the countries that have laws against denial. What two dozen over x number of years versus tens of thousands of political prisoners of the Nazis.

Would you care to estimate a number that we might use to fill in the following.

The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.

Thanks
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:16 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.

It would have to be over ten million. Technically, everyone placed in a camp were political prisoners. Their very existence was an affront to the policies of the Nazi regime.
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Old 21st May 2018, 12:21 PM   #605
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Damn, missed the Mondial visit. I was hoping he might provide evidence as to what happened to the Hungarian Jews not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau, or the Poles at TII, or the Dutch at Sobibor.

It is my ambition to get a denier to answer that question........I may have to live till I am very old.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 04:28 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Damn, missed the Mondial visit. I was hoping he might provide evidence as to what happened to the Hungarian Jews not selected to work on arrival at Birkenau, or the Poles at TII, or the Dutch at Sobibor.

It is my ambition to get a denier to answer that question........I may have to live till I am very old.
Those are reasonable questions he should answer. Since I rather new in this thread, I asked him if he were a total non-believer or just didn't believe parts of the Holocaust.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 04:04 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Would you care to estimate a number that we might use to fill in the following.

The Nazis during their reign of terror placed into prison x number of political prisoners.
The Nazis during their reign of terror, from 1933-1945, across Europe, placed into prison about 2+ million political prisoners.

Wachsmann has 150,000-200,000 people subjected to detention without trial in just 1933, before the camp system started to become structured and acquired permanence; these were mainly political detainees as the new regime settled scores with its traditional opponents and those feared to become its enemies. During 1934-1938 the daily numbers of KL prisoners grew from 2,500 in October 1934 to 24,000 in June 1938 before Kristallnacht, when the camp population temporarily exploded to 50,000, before falling back to 21,400 by the eve of the invasion of Poland. Again focusing on only KL prisoners, daily totals climbed during the war: December 1940 - 53,000; December 1941 - 80,000; December 1942 - 110,000; December 1943 - 315,000; August 1944 - 524,000; January 1945 - 714,000.

As noted, 10s of 1000s of prisoners were held in regular German prisons for political crimes, but the numbers during the 1930s were small compared to what came later, and many, many 1000s more were in various types of confinement outside the KL system during the war years, when numbers of prisoners in German custody skyrocketed.

I checked with a scholar who estimates that the Gestapo proper arrested around 2 million people from 1933 to 1945, including in the annexed territories during the war, whilst the SiPo arrested probably 1 million non-Jews across occupied territories.

The reasons for arrest and confinement were broader than what deniers complain about (thought crime, crimes of expression or political activity) and included speech and political activity/assocation, of course, but also what the Nazis defined as “asocial” behavior (another term might be “social or political outsiders”), excessive drinking or alcoholism, habitual criminality targeting so-called career criminals (security confinement, e.g., indefinite KL sentence tacked onto end of regular-prison sentence), being “work-shy” or violating labor laws (, begging or panhandling, striking or stopping work, loafing, absenteeism, fraternization with foreign laborers), section 175 offenses, being disabled (T4 and wild euthanasia), practicing as a Jehovah’s Witness, membership in a “local” political elite as in Poland, pacifism, being a member of Catholic and Protestant clergy (think Martin Niemöller) in some cases, living as a “Gypsy,” Freemasonry, trade union leadership or activity, political opposition (from KPD to SPD to Center Party and conservatives to oppositionists in the SA), being a relative of an important political opponent, suspicion of political opposition or possible future opposition, etc.

These categories cross one another, and estimating how many of those detained were held as “Reds” or for strictly political reasons is beyond me. I’ve searched a bit and not found an estimate of the number of “Reds” held as political detainees in the KLs. Even Langbein, who wrote a whole book on Greens/Reds and other groups in the camps, didn’t AFAIK venture an estimate for total number of Greens and Reds in the system.

Some data points: Wachsmann estimates that 80% of all Bavarian inmates in 1934 were still political prisoners but that the %’s of “asocials” and “criminals” (Greens) were increasing rapidly. By 1935 Dachau (in Bavaria) held, out of 1,543 prisoners, 246 professional criminals, 198 so-called work-shy, 26 “hardened criminals,” and 38 “moral perverts.” In 1937-1938 police sweeps for suspected criminals brought more and more “BVers” (Berufsverbrecher, or professional criminals) into the KLs; similarly Operation Work-Shy in 1938 rounded up 12,000-15,000 “asocials” and put them in KLs. By 1938 perhaps 70% of those in the camps were “asocials” (wearers of black triangle). As the SS expanded labor “opportunities” (er, important economic tasks) in the late ‘30s, Greens and “asocials” came to predominate in the camps. Wachsmann says that, counter to stereotypes, by and large the BVers were small-time property offenders, not violent, sadistic types.

During the war, the composition of the inmate population would shift again, as large numbers of people from occupied countries and territory were incarcerated in the KLs as political threats (this is leaving aside POWs and Jews also brought into the camps during the war) - along with local peasants who failed to meet requisition quotas and so on. Nacht und Nebel prisoners disappeared into camps from places in western Europe, as did volunteers for the Republican side in the Spanish civil war caught in France or elsewhere during the Nazi occupation. But also during these years the number of labor violators, fraternizers, etc in the camps increased. During the war, the proportion of “politicals” increased outside the borders of the Reich.

As a snapshot, in August 1944, according to vol II of the Auschwitz Museum history of KL Auschwitz, more than a quarter of the inmates (29,000) were political prisoners - and of this half about 1/3 were Poles, the next largest group being Russians. Well over half the prisoners at the time were Jews. There were small numbers of “asocials,” “Gypsies,” Jehovah’s Witnesses, section 175ers, and prisoners held in “probationary custody.” The data cited were compiled by the camp resistance and exclude another almost 40,000 Jews not given camp numbers. Of the non-Jewish prisoners, by far most were “politicals.”

I would guess that, using a conservative definition of “political prisoner,” 2+ million individuals landed in Nazi confinement of one sort or another during the Twelve-Year Reich as political detainees. Without a trial. Held indefinitely. Often in lethal conditions. As to the small number of revisionists whose asses have landed in prison, unlike KL and other prisoners of work-reeducation camps, etc, they’ve been found guilty of violating specific laws, by a court, and, after mounting a legal defense, given a specific sentence under the law, whatever one thinks of the laws involved.

My suggestion for deniers with a martyr-complex, to get a simpler look at this, is that they inquire about Sophie and Hans Scholl to learn how the Nazis handled popular expression of differing political viewpoints (“thought crimes” and expression of dissent - sadly, they would not have been able to ask the Scholls, after the war, for their experiences). Or these cry-baby deniers might ask what was the fate of Kurt Schleicher, or even of the SA-men slaughtered by Hitler and the SS in June 1934. Or what happened to prominent national conservatives during the Third Reich. To get a sense of how their heroes operated.
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Old 24th May 2018, 03:50 AM   #608
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One delusion which deniers trade in is that anti-HD laws come about because those who want to curtail certain speech are afraid of the truth and have no arguments against it. Here, however, is a case in the US of an attempt to shut down speech involving false statements - not out of a fear of the truth or a lack of arguments to counter the falsehoods but because the speech is hurtful to the point of harassing and because it is ongoing, thus repeating the harm over and over.
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Old 15th June 2018, 01:53 AM   #609
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Anti-denial laws also do not prevent people accessing archives and looking for evidence. Look at the work produced by Carlo Mattogno in particular. He admits to accessing original sources in Poland and Russia, which I believe he can also read and produces copies in his books. Thomas Kues and BRoI have also been beavering away in archives (BRoI at Kew and the UK National Archive).

If there really was a hoax to protect, there is no way those people would be allowed anywhere near archives or originals, in case they find evidence of the claimed mass survival of those sent to the AR camps.

Denial laws do not prevent access to archives or research.
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Old 28th July 2018, 06:37 AM   #610
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Is it so difficult for Twitter to hire people who have a little bit of history knowledge and a brain and who are able to use both together?
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Old 30th July 2018, 05:09 PM   #611
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I despise Holocast Deniers, but am strongly opposed to Anti HD laws. I am very much of a fundemantlist when it comes to Freedom of Speech.
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Old 31st July 2018, 06:12 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I despise Holocast Deniers, but am strongly opposed to Anti HD laws. I am very much of a fundemantlist when it comes to Freedom of Speech.
I agree. I think Anti HD laws actually give them more power in a bizarre way.
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Old 31st July 2018, 12:16 PM   #613
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I agree. They enjoy the "risk" of posting anonymously on the internet, it make them feel like outlaws righting wrongs. They also like to think their "evidence" is so powerful it needs laws to repress it.

Even deniers in the USA and UK, who are at no risk at all, thrill to the idea they are on a crusade of truth which "the Juden" are scared of. It adds to the appeal of denial.
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Old 31st July 2018, 12:58 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
I agree. I think Anti HD laws actually give them more power in a bizarre way.
It allows them to pose as "Matrys for Free Speech".
There is also the allure of the forbidden. Ban a book, and people who otherwise would not care will try to get a copy just to see what the fuss is about.
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Old 31st July 2018, 04:57 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I despise Holocast Deniers, but am strongly opposed to Anti HD laws. I am very much of a fundemantlist when it comes to Freedom of Speech.
I'm gonna reluctantly agree. I understand Anti HD laws, but I think those are perversely counter-productive.
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Old 31st July 2018, 05:16 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ban a book, and people who otherwise would not care will try to get a copy just to see what the fuss is about.
The "Spycatcher Effect"
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Old 1st August 2018, 03:36 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I'm gonna reluctantly agree. I understand Anti HD laws, but I think those are perversely counter-productive.
And the precedent they set is horrible. People around here laugh at the "slippery slope" theory, but once a government bans a belief ,it becomes a lot easier for future governments to ban a belief they find "dangerous". you can probably prove that any belief Is "Dangerous" if you want to ban it.
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Old 1st August 2018, 06:22 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And the precedent they set is horrible. People around here laugh at the "slippery slope" theory, but once a government bans a belief ,it becomes a lot easier for future governments to ban a belief they find "dangerous". you can probably prove that any belief Is "Dangerous" if you want to ban it.
Banning a belief is the first step towards an Orwellian Society.

IMO, having Moon Hoax Believers, JFK/RFK/MLK conspiracy nuts, 9/11 Truthers and Holocaust deniers serves a useful purpose.... it exposes the Stupid people in our society for who they are.

I have a couple of family members (thankfully wider not immediate) who are truthers. They know I am a skeptic so when I visit, eventually the subject comes around to 9/11. I now have as little to do with them as possible (and I've made it clear to them the reason why).
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920
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Old 7th August 2018, 01:53 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The "Spycatcher Effect"
A copy of that book was kept at St Andrews University's library whilst it was banned. One of the lecturers bought it in Belgium, brought it back, colluded with a head librarian, covered it in brown paper with a stencil title to make it look like it was a bland index of other works. It was given a DDC and put into the history section.
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Old 7th August 2018, 01:56 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And the precedent they set is horrible. People around here laugh at the "slippery slope" theory, but once a government bans a belief ,it becomes a lot easier for future governments to ban a belief they find "dangerous". you can probably prove that any belief Is "Dangerous" if you want to ban it.
It has already happened with various genocides around the world. It could get to the point a claim is made of a genocide that is false and it is made illegal to expose the hoax. Not one on a large scale, but maybe a localised incident.
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Old 30th September 2018, 01:50 PM   #621
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Jewish writer and businessman Ron Unz has come out in support of holocaust revisionism. Another Jew who did his own research and realised he'd been lied to by the msm and Hollywood.
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pra...ocaust-denial/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912
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Old 30th September 2018, 02:24 PM   #622
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Who?
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Old 30th September 2018, 03:42 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Jewish writer and businessman Ron Unz has come out in support of holocaust revisionism. Another Jew who did his own research and realised he'd been lied to by the msm and Hollywood.
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pra...ocaust-denial/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912
Another Alt-Right Nazi apologist, nothing more. Short on fact, long on anti-Semitic woo.
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Old 30th September 2018, 05:27 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Who?


I clicked the “about” page.

Quote:
For decades I have spent a couple of hours every morning carefully reading The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and several other major newspapers.
That was the first sentence in the mission statement. Not that the website author wrote for any of those papers, but that he read them.
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Old 1st October 2018, 01:38 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I clicked the “about” page.

Quote:
For decades I have spent a couple of hours every morning carefully reading The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and several other major newspapers.
That was the first sentence in the mission statement. Not that the website author wrote for any of those papers, but that he read them.
Aren't these papers examples of the supposedly Jewish-controlled media that people like him are supposed to avoid?
How did he escape Teh Branewashing?
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Old 4th October 2018, 04:49 AM   #626
LemmyCaution
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Jewish writer and businessman Ron Unz has come out in support of holocaust revisionism. Another Jew who did his own research and realised he'd been lied to by the msm and Hollywood.
http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pra...ocaust-denial/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912
From a post I made in a different forum right after Unz's coming out party:

I have my issues with David Cole, but I thought he hit a big fly with Unicornville.

And now he’s back, savaging Ron Unz’s case for HD, with another dinger, one he prefaces with a perfect description of how deniers so often act:
Quote:
I got the standard denier’s “Hey, I’m just askin’ questions” routine. The “golly gosh aw shucks, I ain’t no highfalutin historian, just a lil’ ol’ guy tryin’ to get answers” vaudeville act. Some of our exchanges were downright hilarious.
In Cole’s exchange with Unz - warning: Cole can be nasty - Cole takes Unz to task on the following, painfully familiar to those of us who read denier materials (you have to scroll down in the “dinger” link above to “Cole to Unz (unsent, because why bother?)”:

(1) official German documents

(2) Goebbels’ diary - I like this:
Quote:
There are only three non-retarded responses to that diary passage:

A) It describes exterminations, but it’s a fake; Goebbels didn’t write it.

B) It describes exterminations, but Goebbels was wrong; he had bad info, and he wrote about something that never happened.

C) It describes exterminations that happened.

That’s it, Rain Man. Those are your choices. Your hero Irving proved 'A' not to be the case. The other documentary evidence proves 'B' equally false. But if you want to deny the Holocaust, AT LEAST choose A or B. But calling that diary entry 'vague?' That is moronic beyond belief…literally, beyond what even the worst mouthbreather should be capable of.
(3) German documents again

(4) gas chambers - and documents yet again along with the resettlement and transit nonsense

(5) the official story on how gassings were conducted

(6) the Reinhard camps in the light of Auschwitz

(7) population statistics

(8) Treblinka as a transit camp

(9) population again

(10) Churchill, Ike, and de Gaulle’s non-mention, I kid you not, Unz brought this up!

(11) John Beaty (you have to read the piece!)

(12) Treblinka archaeology - like so,
Quote:
Treblinka survivors say it was an extermination camp.

Treblinka Commandant Stangl says it was an extermination camp

Treblinka Commandant Franz says it was an extermination camp.

Treblinka SS guard Suchomel says it was an extermination camp.

SS Judge Morgen states that it was an extermination camp.

No one states that it was a transit camp.

1961: Ron Unz is born. The world mourns what is to come.

1970 – 2028: Deniers search for proof of the magical resettlement reservations where the Reinhard Jews would have been sent had they simply been “transited.” Every denier has died empty-handed. The few deniers still looking will die empty handed. Zero evidence was uncovered, along with zero evidence of the amazing amount of food, clothing, and material goods the Nazis would have had to supply to take care of 2.4 million*non-laboring*people on a reservation. There is literally more proof of unicorns than there is for this “reservation,” because in the past, scammers have at least*tried*to fake unicorn skulls. But there isn’t even any bad or questionable evidence for this “reservation.” There is*nothing. Zero. Nada.

August 2018: Ron Unz, still smarting from the fact that the “magic beans” be bought from a conniving Jew had failed to birth a beanstalk, praises Holocaust denial.

Labor Day Weekend, 2018: Ron Unz annoys one of his betters on the latter’s 50th birthday.
Cole puts all this with his customary breezy nastiness, better than I can do, for sure. So I’d ask deniers who post here to tell us, point by point from my list of topics above, what’s wrong with Cole’s arguments and where Ron Unz has a point.

I’m not saying not to read the first part of the piece - which gets into Irving, Goebbels' diary, German bureaucracy, witnesses and remembrance - I’m just asking specifically about the second part.
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Old 4th October 2018, 04:55 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Who?
https://spectator.us/2018/09/ron-unz/
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Old 16th October 2018, 08:29 AM   #628
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Hello everyone - I've recently become interested in this topic after having been recommended to watch 'One Third of the Holocaust', 'Cole in Auschwitz' and some stuff about Leuchter by a denier elsewhere. I watched these films and also read the excellent and thorough debunking of them on the 'Holocaust Controversies' blog. This resource has since become my 'go to' site to link when presented with most things I hear from deniers (after which they always go completely silent! ) but I can't seem to find a treatment of Anthony Lawson's 'Were the Germans so stupid?' film there.

I've skimmed through the film and much of it seems to be about whether or not HD should be illegal etc. but is there a source that refutes his 'factual' claims point by point? Thanks.
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Old 21st October 2018, 04:13 AM   #629
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Lawson is hardly credible;

https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=1006

"Having been tortured, Rudolf Höss, who was the commander of Auschwitz from 1940 to 1943, almost certainly lied to save the lives of his wife and children. Even if torture and duress cannot be proven, the overwhelming reason for recognizing the utter falsity of the Höss confession is that the gassing method he described was not scientifically plausible."

He starts with an unevidenced claim Hoss lied to save his family. He then accepts claims about torture and duress are not proven. He then makes a ridiculous non sequitur claim that because Hoss did not describe a plausible means of gassing (which is a claim that is disputed), therefore it was impossible to have gassed people at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Those types of argument have already been debunked and there is no need to go through every single rehash of the arguments.
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Old 21st October 2018, 10:18 PM   #630
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@Nessie
Fair enough - I just found the point by point debunkings of the most popular HD videos really useful when talking to deniers (and a wonderfully reliable way of making them disappear from the conversation!) even if it means going over the same material, and I think Lawson's vid is quite well regarded among them. When I get a bit more well versed in the subject (I'm very new to it) I'll probably do a point by point debunking myself.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 01:05 PM   #631
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What I found amusing during the
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIGyLfzrVzE

That no evidence of devices (my word not his) were found to indicate that people were gassed to death and then cremated was "ever" found.
I guess the Allies imagery taken at DDE's insistence never existed.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 01:28 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by Georgio View Post
@Nessie
Fair enough - I just found the point by point debunkings of the most popular HD videos really useful when talking to deniers (and a wonderfully reliable way of making them disappear from the conversation!) even if it means going over the same material, and I think Lawson's vid is quite well regarded among them. When I get a bit more well versed in the subject (I'm very new to it) I'll probably do a point by point debunking myself.
I would suggest you read the Holocaust Controversies and Holocaust Denial On Trial websites for step by step debunking of denier claims.
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Old 22nd October 2018, 02:58 PM   #633
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French denialist Robert Faurisson died last Sunday 21 October. Good riddance...
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Old 22nd October 2018, 06:26 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would suggest you read the Holocaust Controversies and Holocaust Denial On Trial websites for step by step debunking of denier claims.
Absolutely - as I say, 'Holocaust Controversies' has become my go-to resource when talking to deniers, but it's great to have pages dedicated to the specific videos they're likely to link to, the conversation usually going something like:

- Here is an utterly irrefutable film that proves x, y, z but you won't watch it because your programming means you are unable to accept any doubt over anything to do with the official holocaust narrative and just dismiss anyone who does as a Nazi without even looking at the evidence they present.

- OK, thanks. I've now watched your film and have also read this point by point rebuttal of it on 'Holocaust Controversies'. Would you like to bring up any specific points raised in the film, and how you think they prove x, y, z so we can discuss them?

Crickets.

Either that or I'm told I'm Jewish (then when I tell them I'm not, which I'm not, I'm told I'm lying) so nothing I say should be listened to anyway

The gambit seems to be to link to a horrendously long and/or tedious and/or vague, convoluted film and claim in advance that the person you're talking to won't watch it due to their 'programming', then if they do watch it just bail on the conversation. This has happened to me a number of times now whenever I'm honest and say that I'm new to the subject. The only conversation they want to have is with people who actively refuse to look at their 'evidence' so they can say, 'You won't even look at the evidence!' etc. It's just really useful to have a page that deals with the way the argument is structured in the specific videos they're likely to link to - of course it's going to be the same ultimate non-argument, but the sophistry and tricks used may vary.

EDIT - Sorry, I see what you're saying now - you're recommending those sites for me to read up on so I can do the point by point debunking myself. Thanks
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Old 23rd October 2018, 01:50 AM   #635
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Ask deniers to evidence their beliefs. Be specific, like, ask them what they think happened to the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor in 1943 and to show their evidence.

It is comical to watch them squirm.
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Old 23rd October 2018, 04:41 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
French denialist Robert Faurisson died last Sunday 21 October. Good riddance...
Aged 89
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Old 23rd October 2018, 05:46 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by apollo16uvc View Post
Aged 89
And?
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Old 23rd October 2018, 06:01 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
And?
Just under 9 months, I think.

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Old 23rd October 2018, 11:57 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
French denialist Robert Faurisson died last Sunday 21 October. Good riddance...
You won't see me shedding any tears over him.
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Old 24th October 2018, 12:38 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
French denialist Robert Faurisson died last Sunday 21 October. Good riddance...
https://boingboing.net/2018/10/23/fa...veryone-a.html
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