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8th June 2011, 09:05 AM | #321 |
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8th June 2011, 09:16 AM | #322 |
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8th June 2011, 09:28 AM | #323 |
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8th June 2011, 10:36 AM | #324 |
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Wouldn't Billy Ockham opine that with all these widely different ideas on the subject from minds both great and small, that it's only an individual perception for any of us?
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8th June 2011, 10:42 AM | #325 |
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There's a LOT more to creativity than the arts.
Engineers can be quite creative, and not mad... surly sometimes, but not clinically mad... |
8th June 2011, 11:30 AM | #326 |
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I'm sorry, I should have been clearer. Rather than saying "the only way to truth", I should have said "the only way to 'wisdom'" & "eternal life", with "wisdom" defined as seeing the oneness of all things. Many of the most famous texts identify trance/"out of body experience"/"rapture" as THE way of coming to gain this "wisdom":
Plato's Republic: highest knowledge is seeing "The Idea of the Good"; in Book V, Socrates identifies the "greatest good" of the ideal city as what makes the city one Plato's Phaedo: "if we would have pure knowledge of anything we must be quit of the body, and the soul in herself must behold all things in themselves: then I suppose that we shall attain that which we desire, and of which we say that we are lovers, and that is wisdom, not while we live, but after death, as the argument shows; for if while in company with the body the soul cannot have pure knowledge, one of two things seems to follow-either knowledge is not to be attained at all, or, if at all, after death. For then, and not till then, the soul will be in herself alone and without the body. In this present life, I reckon that we make the nearest approach to knowledge when we have the least possible concern or interest in the body, and are not saturated with the bodily nature." Bhagavad Gita 2.58-59 "When, like a tortoise retracting its limbs, he withdraws his senses completely from sensuous objects, his insight is sure. Sensuous objects fade when the embodied self abstains from food; the taste lingers, but it too fades in the vision of higher truth." 6:22: "Absolute joy beyond the senses can only be grasped by the understanding...obtaining it, he thinks there is no greater gain; abiding there, he is unmoved, even by suffering." 5:27: "shuns external objects, fixes his gaze between his brows" [on the third eye] 6:25-30:"He should think nothing...become one with the infinite spirit...sees me everywhere and sees everything in me...grasps the oneness of life" Tao te Ching Ch.16: http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap16.htm#top "Empty your mind of all thoughts. [this leads to trance, out-of-body experience, when done correctly & for long enough] Let your heart be at peace. [Thus] watch the turmoil of all beings, but contemplate their return. All things in the universe returns to the common source. Returning to the source is serenity; it is to realize one's destiny. To realize one's destiny is to know the eternal. To know the eternal is to be enlightened. Not to know the eternal is to act blindly and court disaster. He who knows the eternal is all-embracing. Being all-embracing, he is impartial. Being impartial, he is kingly (universal). Being kingly, he is one with Nature. Being one with Nature, he is in accord with Tao. To be in accord with the Way is to be eternal and to live free from harm even though the body dies." Herman Hesse's Siddhartha [on the Buddha]: "Slowly blossomed, slowly ripened in Siddhartha the realisation, the knowledge, what wisdom actually was, what the goal of his long search was. It was nothing but a readiness of the soul, an ability, a secret art, to think every moment, while living his life, the thought of oneness, to be able to feel and inhale the oneness. " Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven": "And then the truth will come to you at last, that all is one and one is all, to be a rock & not to roll!" |
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8th June 2011, 11:48 AM | #327 |
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Lol,wisdom from Led Zep! They were numb from coke at that period. If you fix your gaze between your brows you will walk into a lamp post. Plato invented the plate. I prefer to inhale the Earth's atmosphere,it does me good.
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8th June 2011, 11:54 AM | #328 |
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I'm a little more interested in seeing how you define "eternal life."
As far as wisdom, seems to me the problem is that such trance states certainly make a person feel as if they, subjectively, have attained wisdom. I'm not sure it works so well to cherry-pick "wise" people who claim their wisdom came from a trance state, without comparing them to "wise" people who don't, as well as comparing them to the number of people who attain trance states and aren't particularly wise. |
8th June 2011, 11:54 AM | #329 |
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Oneness of all things? everything you see, taste, feel .....virtually the whole material world came from the death of a star, there you go were all star stuff. No mysticism, fairy fluff or years of psychosis required, now you can go do something useful with your life instead of wasting it peddling gibberish.
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8th June 2011, 12:01 PM | #330 |
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Really? There is no other way to realize the oneness of things? I cannot simply observe how the smallest of my decisions impacts those I know and don't know? I cannot turn outward instead of inward and see that my lifestyle affects local wildlife, national economies and international trade, which in turns affects the wildlife, culture , society, and economy of a distant country? I cannot read stories of blood diamonds and make the link that demand for resources other than diamonds also impacts the very lives of people half-way across the world?
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8th June 2011, 12:26 PM | #331 |
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This whole thread so perfectly exemplifies how people intent on finding irrational, fictitious meanings to existence miss out on how wholly satisfying, wonderful and, if they where to experience it, they would describe it as spiritual, the realization of ones place in the real, physical, experiencable universe really is.
gjpogiatzis, You are missing out and I pity you. |
8th June 2011, 12:43 PM | #332 |
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I have met Christians who have worked to feed the poor. They have told me that after a big project, they sometimes look at what has been done and feel a sense of accomplishment that borders on religious ecstasy. Not in a prideful way, but in a sense that the community has come together to reduce the amount of pain in the world by (1) feeding people who would have gone without food and (2) helping these people believe that they are worthy of the gift they received.
Surprisingly, Jesus, Himself, describes such activities as part of the path that leads to eternal life. [Matt. chapter 5] Ironically, this approach to wisdom and connectedness involves using food rather than eschewing food. Again, I counter your assertion - your path is not the only one. |
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8th June 2011, 12:46 PM | #333 |
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OH WOW! WOW. IT'S LIKE, ALL ONE. WE'RE ALL ONE. UNREAL, MAN Ooops, sorry, had a little flashback for a moment. Must have been the Led Zeppelin. Now back to our regularly scheduled reality show.
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8th June 2011, 12:55 PM | #334 |
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What'd the Buddhist say to the hot-dog vendor?
"Make me one with everything." |
8th June 2011, 12:58 PM | #335 |
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8th June 2011, 01:13 PM | #336 |
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8th June 2011, 01:14 PM | #337 |
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Do "you" really think you're one with all things? The fact that you use the word "I" belies this, because you speak as if you have a "self" separate from other things. In the Diamond Sutra of the Buddha, the illusion of there being a self is the most important and hardest illusion to overcome. It's hard to really see it until your state of consciousness is dramatically altered (hence my thread on the connections between "madness" & genius), because in our ordinary state of consciousness we do seem to be a self separate from other things.
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8th June 2011, 01:20 PM | #338 |
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I don't see where it's necessary to be so, really. Except in some esoteric, won't-put-food-in-my-belly or a-roof-over-my-head kind of way.
Pretty much of the opinion that people who focus intently on philosophy are wasting perfectly good time. There are better, more productive things to do, really. Philosophizing is best suited to a nice chair by the fire, a nice snifter of brandy, and a couple of good friends to shoot the angsty bull with until bedtime.
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8th June 2011, 01:33 PM | #339 |
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Or (again) should we just go ahead and assume that any facts are irrelevant in this discussion?
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8th June 2011, 02:26 PM | #340 |
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Originally Posted by dafydd
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8th June 2011, 02:50 PM | #341 |
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I'm not one with all things. When I walk into a wall, I hit it and stop. When I make love, I make love to another person. When I see out the window, I see out it not into it.
Connection is not unity. To suggest that the chaotic and intricate connectedness of the universe is unity is to miss all the interesting parts. |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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8th June 2011, 02:53 PM | #342 |
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I think what he means by a "dash" is it's on the lowest possible end of the spectrum, just a natural proclivity, or tendency. It seems the spectrum exists for a reason, for example a very recent paper explores this "Conceptualizing the Autism Spectrum in Terms of Natural Selection and Behavioral Ecology: The Solitary Forager Hypothesis"
I think you're leaning on the word systems too hard. I absolutely see science-mindedness as a tendency or proclivity rather than a system. For example, we like things that work.
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8th June 2011, 03:07 PM | #343 |
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8th June 2011, 03:12 PM | #344 |
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8th June 2011, 08:06 PM | #345 |
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8th June 2011, 08:13 PM | #346 |
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"Been a long time, been a long time, been a long lonely, lonely, lonely, lonely long time."
Sorry, where were we? |
8th June 2011, 08:31 PM | #347 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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8th June 2011, 08:52 PM | #348 |
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@gjpogiatzis
Have you reached the truth and if so, how so? And according to your concept of the truth (not quotes from anyone else please), is it a one time only thing, or do you have to keep going back to the truth for more as time goes on? I'm not trying to be snarky here, so perhaps you'd be so kind as to answer my questions with no quotes from anyone else. |
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8th June 2011, 09:08 PM | #349 |
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Woo! First offs, the reason "God helps those who help themselves," is because none other than the ones who seek those things have ears for them.
In other words, it's pretty useless to post about 'higher' enlightenment to scientists or skeptics or whatever, because this happens Secondly, going without water during a fast is dangerous at best. Your body needs water to flush out the goings-on when fasting. That said, I have fasted, and researched it via google, and found some interesting information that I'm not able to cite due to the time crunch I have, but I wanted to share some stuff from an observer's POV, and these are my experiences: I've done a 10 day fast, an 8 day fast, and a 4 day fast, and will be undergoing a 14 day fast in mid-July. I fast for detoxification purposes. My version of fasting is: Lots of water; vitamins for the first 1/2 of the fast, and nothing besides those for the entire duration; coming out of the fast gently with raw and organic produce to, as much as possible, keep the possibility of 'Digestive Luco-Cytosis' out of the realm of possibilities The body has a lot more energy when deprived of food [NOT WATER!], presumably because the body's digestion takes a lot of energy. I felt great and had massive amounts of mental energy after day 4 on all cases, but had to be careful about, a)not drinking enough water [terrible headaches, which is your body's way of saying, "EFF you! Give me some lube!"], and b)drinking too much water [too much water 'poisons' your cells due to osmosis or something, which is VERY painful and makes you vomit very strong and almost undiluted stomach acid]. There is a research experiment documented [found it via Google] somewhere about a 1960s [I believe, but may be wrong about the decade] 'Worm Fasting.' The scientists subjected a worm to fasting until its body began to destroy its necessary compounds and such, then began feeding it again, and so on and so forth repeated the situation. The worm lived nearly 500x as long as the other "Control Worms" in the experiment who had no form of fasting. And that's just about all the relevant info on fasting I can remember in this short amount of time. |
8th June 2011, 09:39 PM | #350 |
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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8th June 2011, 10:59 PM | #351 |
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8th June 2011, 11:16 PM | #352 |
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Digestion requiring energy? To a certain point, yes, but as is rather obvious the net balance is positive. Starvation is actually a well-known way to impair cognitive abilities.
As for "detoxification", one side effect fasting is the initiation of ketosis (basically metabolism of proteins into energy), which in extreme cases can lead to acidosis, a very dangerous condition. You're right about the risks of excessive water intake though, as an excess of hypo-osmolar fluid can cause brain oedema and death. I don't think your periods of fasting as described cause you any harm, but I recommend reading up on a textbook on human physiology for a view on how basic human metabolism and digestion works (no snarkiness intended). |
8th June 2011, 11:34 PM | #353 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie_restriction
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8th June 2011, 11:53 PM | #354 |
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8th June 2011, 11:53 PM | #355 |
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Although he's skeptical, Joey McGee cited a great example.
I'm not saying that fasting is the best way to prolong your life-span [although there's nothing bad about it if done well], but I am saying that fasting is a great way to detox a body that's been ingesting toxins for it's whole life [average American diet], like mine has :] If I were to read that same physiology textbook, [that is, if it contained nutritional information; I've been led to believe by a documentary that almost all American and European MDs learn little to nothing about nutritional studies while schooling] I'm positive it would say that the current dietary habits of most of the world are incredibly detrimental to humans, for one reason or another. People starving is a terrible thing for the body; but you don't fast through starvation. You start eating once your body's starved of it's necessary nutrients/storehouses.
Originally Posted by Joey McGee
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8th June 2011, 11:58 PM | #356 |
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I second that, but without the pity.
I'd assume gjpogiatzi's behavior could be classified as, a) a subconsciously Egotistical way to live; or, b) an excited way to live. Leaning more toward the former, merely because of a Confucius line.
Originally Posted by Confucius
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9th June 2011, 12:22 AM | #357 |
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9th June 2011, 12:36 AM | #358 |
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I am "missing out"? Of course I am (for I have until recently been having difficulty disciplining myself enough to deny the flesh's desires so as to attain transcendence, but I am determined to overcome my foolishness), but not more so than any of you fools who have not yet had these kinds of mystical out-of-body experiences I have been describing, which give the key to all reality. Dostoevksy, Brothers Karamazov BkVI.3.g:
"Much on earth is hidden from us, but to make up for that we have been given a precious mystic sense of our living bond with the other world, with the higher heavenly world [Plato's Realm of Forms/Ideas], and the roots of our thoughts and feelings are not here but in other worlds. That is why the philosophers [ex.Plato,Kant] say that we cannot apprehend the reality of things on earth. "God took seeds from different worlds and sowed them on this earth, and His garden grew up and everything came up that could come up, but what grows lives and is alive only through the feeling of its contact with other mysterious worlds. If that feeling grows weak or is destroyed in you, the heavenly growth will die away in you. Then you will be indifferent to life and even grow to hate it. That's what I think." http://www.classicbookshelf.com/libr..._karamazov/48/ |
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9th June 2011, 12:38 AM | #359 |
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You say it like it's a bad thing! I'm radically-minded and adventurous towards natural health just not without conclusive proof.
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9th June 2011, 12:50 AM | #360 |
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