IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bible , buddhism , christianity , god , hinduism , islam , jesus

Reply
Old 9th June 2011, 12:51 AM   #361
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
I am "missing out"
You're missing out on how much better naturalism is than supernaturalism. If you spend all of this time on these distortions and fantasies that's time you could have been spending on reality and nature. Your distortions and fantasies do have some benefit which seems great to you, but you don't realize how lame it was until you've been living in reality for a long while.

Quote:
but not more so than any of you fools who have not yet had these kinds of mystical out-of-body experiences I have been describing, which get at the key to all reality. Dostoevksy, Brothers Karamazov BkVI.3.g:
Anything you've experienced, I have as well, in spades. I still carry some of that, look at my signature and my title, it's tongue-in-cheek though, the world is naturalistic, we just imagine supernaturalism on top of it. It's delusion.

It's like the time Randi thought he had an OBE until it was explained to him that it couldn't have been real. "During the OBE, Randi interacted with his cat Alice as she lay on his chartreuse bedspread. He was subsequently shown that the cat had been locked outside, and the chartreuse bedspread was in the wash — not on his bed." A convincing effect, even for Randi.

Last edited by Joey McGee; 9th June 2011 at 12:52 AM.
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 12:55 AM   #362
Sawbones79
Critical Thinker
 
Sawbones79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
Although he's skeptical, Joey McGee cited a great example.

I'm not saying that fasting is the best way to prolong your life-span [although there's nothing bad about it if done well], but I am saying that fasting is a great way to detox a body that's been ingesting toxins for it's whole life [average American diet], like mine has :]

If I were to read that same physiology textbook, [that is, if it contained nutritional information; I've been led to believe by a documentary that almost all American and European MDs learn little to nothing about nutritional studies while schooling] I'm positive it would say that the current dietary habits of most of the world are incredibly detrimental to humans, for one reason or another.

People starving is a terrible thing for the body; but you don't fast through starvation. You start eating once your body's starved of it's necessary nutrients/storehouses.



You don't need to enjoy it; if you're doing it, you have reasons that go beyond a need for instant gratification, I'd say...
The textbook advice was mainly meant to provide basic information on how the human body metabolizes fat, carbohydrates and protein to provide energy and "building blocks" for our cells. This is very basic physiology, and comprehensively studied in med school at least in Sweden, and I'd be surprised if American med students didn't go through it as well.
What parts of the common human diet do you consider detrimental? Sure, there are lots of ways to eat in an unhealthy manner (too much, too little, too limited a diet), but the human body can prosper on an amazing variety of foodstuffs- just look at how people in arctic regions have survived on a diet basically devoid of vegetables, while some ethnic groups get along just as fine without meat.
Sawbones79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:00 AM   #363
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
If you read William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience"'s chapters on "Mysticism", you will see these kinds of experiences have been had all throughout history, e.g. by St. Teresa de Avila in the 16th century, or by William James himself while on nitrous oxide: http://www.bodysoulandspirit.net/mys...es/james.shtml. These "ancient" texts are not outdated: they transcend time & place.
Yes that is right. Brain get shut all the time to a low level , and back up to survival, creating all kind of weird experience.

But you know what ? The difference is that today we know what's the brain function, and that with all the evidence we have at hand , all those experience you cited fully happen in the brain aka : they are a dellusion.

Thus the "god helmet" , "drugs" and other way to push the brain to its limit and conjure hallucination.

Last edited by Aepervius; 9th June 2011 at 01:24 AM.
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:07 AM   #364
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
But what is reality? The end of the Buddha's Diamond Sutra says that all we experience is a dream & illusion. Compare with Don Quixote, Descartes' Meditations, Plato's Republic Cave Allegory, & The Matrix.
For me this is reality :

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”

Not the kantien philosophy "dry hole" as somebody said earlier. You can mastrubate all the way that reality is an illusion that trance lead somewhere etc... But the cold reality is that brain hallucination are just that.

but in the case you present reality is probably better defined as :

“Reality is just a crutch for people who can't cope with drugs.”

Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:11 AM   #365
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Not without some evidence that there's something to obtain. Thus far we have the ravings of lunatics, and that's it.

Have you actually read any of Nietzsche? The man was a few crayons short of a coloring book. Could barely put coherent sentences together. Besides, why focus so much on the pain? It seems to me someone who was trying to give us the key to eternal bliss would be focused on THAT, rather than the temporary suffering. I think there's something else going on in your head....
Hey he is the author of my favorite quote don't throw stone at him , bro !

"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:17 AM   #366
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
You say it like it's a bad thing! I'm radically-minded and adventurous towards natural health just not without conclusive proof.
No! I say it like it's an obvious thing; and I support reaffirming the obvious. No worries, though

Quote:
What is your proof for this? This notion isn't well tolerated [omitted URL]by science-based medicine.
Amazingly, I have no proof whatsoever! Oddly enough I didn't care to document my fast because I didn't do it for you.

Quote:
was Mike Adams in that documentary? I follow Orac, everyone should. [Omitted URL] I quote him here
Quote:
In any case, it's ********, plain and simple, that doctors are not taught about nutrition or disease prevention. We are. The difference is that physicians are taught about nutrition and disease prevention based on science and evidence, not based on fairy dust, fantasy, and nonsense
Yikes! What was that documentary called? I bet people like Orac wrote a few reviews
I honestly have no idea who either of those people are. It was a food documentary on Netflix that I didn't care to research after I watched it

However, the judgement on my comment was precisely why I said, "been led to believe..."

Quote:
What parts of the common human diet do you consider detrimental?
Well, in America, I'd say the basic processed foods are widely considered detrimental.

Quote:
Sure, there are lots of ways to eat in an unhealthy manner (too much, too little, too limited a diet), but the human body can prosper on an amazing variety of foodstuffs- just look at how people in arctic regions have survived on a diet basically devoid of vegetables, while some ethnic groups get along just as fine without meat.
I understand that well, because I'm still alive!
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:24 AM   #367
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
Amazingly, I have no proof whatsoever! Oddly enough I didn't care to document my fast because I didn't do it for you.

Quote:
fasting is a great way to detox a body
You made a serious, dangerous claim without evidence on a skeptical forum
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:28 AM   #368
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
Woo! First offs, the reason "God helps those who help themselves," is because none other than the ones who seek those things have ears for them.

In other words, it's pretty useless to post about 'higher' enlightenment to scientists or skeptics or whatever, because this happens
So do you agree with the title? Is there only one way to achieve enlightenment?
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:34 AM   #369
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Do "you" really think you're one with all things?
No, I don't. Of course, my point was not to claim that I was one with everything. My point was to ask you what your opinion of other paths was.

I want to understand why you consider all other paths to be dead ends.

And in answering this question, please, please, PLEASE do not say: it is the only way because XXXX said it was the only way.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 9th June 2011 at 01:36 AM.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:44 AM   #370
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
You made a serious, dangerous claim without evidence on a skeptical forum
Dangerous? For one, not if you follow everything else I've said. For two, this isn't an advice forum, so no one should be following mine in the first place

Also, that doesn't mean that there isn't proof, just that I'm not going to go out of my way to find it for you when it won't have any bearing on your feelings toward it in the first place.

If I ever get a crazy huge grant and some equipment that will allow me to test it, I will, just for you

I'd test it this way:
Gather 20 people who have smoked cigarettes for exactly 20 years and smoke about the same amount daily as each other.

Split them into two groups; all body types varied, 10 per group.

Scan all their lungs and anything else directly affected by smoking.

Group Y would quit smoking cold turkey and not pick it back up.
Group X would quit cold turkey on the same day and also begin fasting with the parameters I've outlined in my recent posts ETA and not pick it back up.

Take scans of all lungs and such after the fast is complete, and again in a year.

Hypothesis: Group X would exhibit faster healing rates than Group Y on all levels because I smoke, but quit when I fast, and when I fasted I pooped out tar from day 6 until the last day

____

Until then, though, you'll have to forgive me. I'm poor.

Last edited by Larechar; 9th June 2011 at 01:58 AM.
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:45 AM   #371
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
So do you agree with the title? Is there only one way to achieve enlightenment?
God no. There are fast-tracks, I'd call them, but balance is far more key than extreme actions taken as a last attempt at holding onto sanity.
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:46 AM   #372
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Hey he is the author of my favorite quote don't throw stone at him , bro !

"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
What does that mean..?
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 01:54 AM   #373
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Originally Posted by Ladewig
Really? There is no other way to realize the oneness of things? I cannot simply observe how the smallest of my decisions impacts those I know and don't know? I cannot turn outward instead of inward and see that my lifestyle affects local wildlife, national economies and international trade, which in turns affects the wildlife, culture , society, and economy of a distant country? I cannot read stories of blood diamonds and make the link that demand for resources other than diamonds also impacts the very lives of people half-way across the world?




Once again, just because a famous book says somehitng does not mean that that principle is inviolate truth that must be worshiped.
Do "you" really think you're one with all things? The fact that you use the word "I" belies this, because you speak as if you have a "self" separate from other things. In the Diamond Sutra of the Buddha, the illusion of there being a self is the most important and hardest illusion to overcome. It's hard to really see it until your state of consciousness is dramatically altered (hence my thread on the connections between "madness" & genius), because in our ordinary state of consciousness we do seem to be a self separate from other things.
Um... No. Using the word, "I," is the best identifiable term the English language has for quickly determining one entity. Self has multiple definitions [spiritual/physical], and relating Ladewig's use of "I" into something you can understand way up there on your throne/podium, just imagine he said, "So you are trying to teach the fact that one cannot learn from being aware of one's surroundings."

Holding yourself above others because of their vocabulary is a cheap trick that develops subconscious Ego, pushing you farther from your goal of, "Enlightened," and only crushes your Humility.

Had you been, "Enlightened," you would have refrained from being a know-it-all.
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 02:13 AM   #374
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Apologies for spamming

Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
was Mike Adams in that documentary? I follow Orac, everyone should. I quote him here
Yikes! What was that documentary called? I bet people like Orac wrote a few reviews
No, Mike Adams was not in the documentary according to the doc's website. It's called FOODMATTERS.
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 02:33 AM   #375
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
Dangerous? For one, not if you follow everything else I've said.
What are you talking about? How are you making fasting perfectly safe? What did you say that makes it safe to make unsupported claims?

Fasting is a dangerous idea and has harmed or killed many people. Another consideration is that it's wasted time and energy better spent on real solutions which is a net harm.

Quote:
For two, this isn't an advice forum, so no one should be following mine in the first place
No it's a skeptical forum where people debate each other for the purpose of becoming more correct and intelligent.

Quote:
Also, that doesn't mean that there isn't proof, just that I'm not going to go out of my way to find it for you
Think, don't feel. Look around, anyone making an unsupported claim on any subject will be challenged on it no matter how insignificant it is, that's the point of the forum.
Quote:
when it won't have any bearing on your feelings toward it in the first place
Please prevent evidence for your belief that I will not accept evidence.
Quote:
when I fasted I pooped out tar from day 6 until the last day
Did you send it to the lab for analysis? Oh wait you're poor. And apparently unable to conceive of the idea that it could have been a side-effect from whatever you were doing with your fast, as has been shown by debunkings on "cleanses", many times before. Don't tell me, charcoal?

Last edited by Joey McGee; 9th June 2011 at 02:37 AM.
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 02:54 AM   #376
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Food Matters. Cranks!

David Wolfe thinks mushroom spores come from other planets. He's an absolute crank whose sole value is entertainment purposes. yay!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Classic moments I bookmarked (will load video at exact time)
Deer Eaters are more Heavenly
Activate Genius
Ormus wants to mate with you
Mushrooms are aliens
If you have candida (how do you diagnose?) you should drink piss.

My point is that all of these new "natural health" movies that come out try to make themselves look so mainstream and acceptable, but if you look into them, there is hardcore woo everywhere. Case in point, Simply Raw. It's a fairly noncontroversial idea, diet helps diabetes, but if you look into their beliefs, especially about the Essenes and the other stuff they are involved with, you think wow! Is this like recruiting for their superwoo?


Their top endorser is Dr. Mercola!?!? lol I could probably go on all day about that movie.

Mike Adams is indeed part of that I guessed it, here's him interviewing Charlotte Gerson (daughter of famous cancer crank) on their website. Mike Adams is persona non grata. Search his name on Orac's blog for endless hilarity, although some of it is outrageous, not funny. He wrote on his blog once that he thought Jared Loughner was a mind control victim of a conspiracy, but for some reason later edited that post... He really is the king of health woo cranks that's why I guessed he was involved in this...

Last edited by Joey McGee; 9th June 2011 at 04:04 AM.
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 02:58 AM   #377
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
What are you talking about? How are you making fasting perfectly safe? What did you say that makes it safe to make unsupported claims?
To stop fasting when your body starts deteriorating. Said that twice; pay attention if you're gonna troll.

Quote:
Fasting is a dangerous idea
Please present evidence that the idea of fasting is dangerous.
Quote:
and has harmed or killed many people
Water-drinking contests kill people, also, but people still drink water; it's not too redundant to repeat what I said above, is it? [stop when your body tells you to.]


Quote:
Another consideration is that it's wasted time and energy better spent on real solutions which is a net harm.
Please present evidence of your belief that it's not a 'real' solution.


Quote:
No it's a skeptical forum where people debate each other for the purpose of becoming more correct and intelligent.
Yes, and unorthodox rhetoric doesn't require evidence for a debate over an idea that hasn't been proven yet.

That's what science is for.

Quote:
Think, don't feel.
Nobody mentioned feel? However, that's a dangerous idea based on many [if not all] Kouryu arts.

Quote:
Look around, anyone making an unsupported claim on any subject will be challenged on it no matter how insignificant it is, that's the point of the forum.
Oh, that's what's going on! I hadn't noticed.

Quote:
Please prevent evidence for your belief that I will not accept evidence.
I can't prevent it twice.

Quote:
Did you send it to the lab for analysis? Oh wait you're poor.
Yes I am; next time I'll send it to you so you can cover the fee

Quote:
And apparently unable to conceive of the idea that it could have been a side-effect from whatever you were doing with your fast, as has been shown by debunkings on "cleanses" Don't tell me, charcoal?
Yes, because I can be sarcastic, I am obviously unable to conceive notions of sagacity.

However, I don't quite understand the double-meaning, so correct me if I'm inconsistently deciphering your daunting code.

You're assuming I ingested charcoal? No, just water.

You're saying I pooped out charcoal because it was already in me? Possibly, but wouldn't that be a good thing to cleanse anyway?
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 03:03 AM   #378
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Food Matters. Cranks!

David Wolfe thinks mushroom spores come from other planets. He's an absolute crank whose sole value is entertainment purposes. yay!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Their top endorser is Dr. Mercola!?!? lol I could probably go on all day about that movie.

Mike Adams is indeed part of that I guessed it, here's him interviewing Charlotte Gerson (daughter of famous cancer crank) on their website. Mike Adams is persona non grata. Search his name on Orac's blog for endless hilarity, although some of it is outrageous, not funny. He wrote on his blog once that he thought Jared Loughner was a mind control victim of a conspiracy, but for some reason later edited that post... He really is the king of health woo cranks that's why I guessed he was involved in this...
I can't imagine why haha.

Well, thank you for the opinion. I don't follow any of the people you've mentioned, so I've nothin more to say about that
I'm sure your conclusions are well-researched, though.
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 03:24 AM   #379
Steve001
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,789
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Question what you consider to be "reality", friend.
In the science of Physics. Anything that can be quantified. In common vernacular anything that can be experienced through the senses.
Steve001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 03:27 AM   #380
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
To stop fasting when your body starts deteriorating.
Yeah, that's real solid advice.
Quote:
Said that twice; pay attention if you're gonna troll.
So now after all of that, I'm trolling. Sounds like you're incapable of rational discussion so...
Quote:
Please present evidence that the idea of fasting is dangerous
Too easy.
Quote:
Water-drinking contests kill people, also, but people still drink water; it's not too redundant to repeat what I said above, is it?
Especially when we are talking about gullible and naive people, imagining that people could somehow medically supervise themselves on a fast is beyond naive.
Quote:
Please present evidence of your belief that it's not a 'real' solution.
Oh wow the "prove it's not true" gambit, you're the one making the claim, shirking responsibility for the burden of proof eh...
Quote:
Yes, and unorthodox rhetoric doesn't require evidence for a debate over an idea that hasn't been proven yet. That's what science is for.
You're making unsupported claims that are dangerous. Especially the "I pooped tar" claim. People go "Wow I need to do fasting to get that stuff out of me too!" But since it's probably a delusion, you're giving harmful advice, and talking about stuff that needs to be challenged or ridiculed like food matters. You're accusing me of being a troll and unwilling to accept evidence for no rational reason. I think you need to rethink this. I'm actually setting you straight about some pretty dangerous stuff here.
Quote:
I can't prevent it twice
v is a long way from s on the keyboard

Quote:
You're assuming I ingested charcoal? No, just water.

You're saying I pooped out charcoal because it was already in me? Possibly, but wouldn't that be a good thing to cleanse anyway?
I guessed since charcoal is commonly used during fasts. People often think they are cleansing things but it's really the psyllium husks or whatever else they are doing. The chances of that kind of effect being caused by something you were doing to your body is gazillions of times more likely than it being tar, yet you tell the story of "it was tar" which is not a good thing to be telling people.

Anyway, it's woo. Back to the OP

Last edited by Joey McGee; 9th June 2011 at 03:31 AM.
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 03:53 AM   #381
Sawbones79
Critical Thinker
 
Sawbones79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Too easy.Especially when we are talking about gullible and naive people, imagining that people could somehow medically supervise themselves on a fast is beyond naive.
Oh wow the "prove it's not true" gambit, you're the one making the claim, shirking responsibility for the burden of proof eh...
You're making unsupported claims that are dangerous. Especially the "I pooped tar" claim. People go "Wow I need to do fasting to get that stuff out of me too!" But since it's probably a delusion, you're giving harmful advice, and talking about stuff that needs to be challenged or ridiculed like food matters. You're accusing me of being a troll and unwilling to accept evidence for no rational reason. I think you need to rethink this. I'm actually setting you straight about some pretty dangerous stuff here.
v is a long way from s on the keyboard

I guessed since charcoal is commonly used during fasts. People often think they are cleansing things but it's really the psyllium husks or whatever else they are doing. The chances of that kind of effect being caused by something you were doing to your body is gazillions of times more likely than it being tar, yet you tell the story of "it was tar" which is not a good thing to be telling people.

Anyway, it's woo. Back to the OP
Both points underlined and seconded. The warning systems of the body are good, but not foolproof, especially when impaired by hunger (very similar to how normal heat regulation breaks down in hypothermia).
And as for strange faeces, it's a classic trick in many woo diets to provide people with substances that cause unusual colour or consistence of the fecal matter, claiming that "toxins are being cleared from the body". One of the worst examples I've seen was small "pebbles" that absorbed water in the intestine, coming out as round balls that were pointed out as excreted gallstones...
Tar-like faeces is often caused by iron supplements, as well a food made from blood. Swedish black pudding is well known for this.
Sawbones79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 04:02 AM   #382
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Oh wow the "prove it's not true" gambit, you're the one making the claim, shirking responsibility for the burden of proof eh...
No, I just meant that since the tests aren't complete there's no proof against the fact that fasting could be healthy given the correct circumstances.
Quote:
You're making unsupported claims that are dangerous.
I was being literal about the idea of fasting being dangerous.
Quote:
You're accusing me of being a troll and unwilling to accept evidence for no rational reason.
I accused you of trolling once; I don't think you're a troll regularly
Quote:
v is a long way from s on the keyboard
lol.
Quote:
I guessed since charcoal is commonly used during fasts. People often think they are cleansing things but it's really the psyllium husks or whatever else they are doing. The chances of that kind of effect being caused by something you were doing to your body is gazillions of times more likely than it being tar, yet you tell the story of "it was tar" which is not a good thing to be telling people.
Quote:
Both points underlined and seconded. The warning systems of the body are good, but not foolproof, especially when impaired by hunger (very similar to how normal heat regulation breaks down in hypothermia).
And as for strange faeces, it's a classic trick in many woo diets to provide people with substances that cause unusual colour or consistence of the fecal matter, claiming that "toxins are being cleared from the body". One of the worst examples I've seen was small "pebbles" that absorbed water in the intestine, coming out as round balls that were pointed out as excreted gallstones...
Tar-like faeces is often caused by iron supplements, as well a food made from blood. Swedish black pudding is well known for this.
I'm not saying, "it was tar," as much as I'm saying it was a "tar-like-substance." But it wasn't anything "else," [as in, side effect from a strange digestive process because of the lack of nutrients while digesting "whatever else"] because literally the only thing I put into my body was water. It's possible that iron was built up in my bowels prior to, but that seems a stretch.

Quote:
Anyway, it's woo. Back to the OP
I agree, but, I thought we were pretty on-topic? OP was talking about fasting, after all.
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 04:47 AM   #383
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Originally Posted by Sawbones79 View Post
Both points underlined and seconded. The warning systems of the body are good, but not foolproof, especially when impaired by hunger (very similar to how normal heat regulation breaks down in hypothermia).
Ahhh I see! Having fasted myself and having watched others I think normal warning systems for behavior are missing too. Evolutionarily you would expect any adaptions to deal with hunger and help you find food would have some negative trade-offs (ignoring signals so you can focus on other things which I think is why religions use fasting)

Sawbones you practice medicine right? Is your name because you get to saw bones sometimes?
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 05:00 AM   #384
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
No, I just meant that since the tests aren't complete there's no proof against the fact that fasting could be healthy given the correct circumstances.
It probably could be made to be healthy, there probably are some ways to benefit from the idea of fasting. But because the idea is so nebulous, we have to be specific about how.

Quote:
I'm not saying, "it was tar," as much as I'm saying it was a "tar-like-substance."
you clearly gave that impression and think it was anyway
Quote:
But it wasn't anything "else," [as in, side effect from a strange digestive process because of the lack of nutrients while digesting "whatever else"] because literally the only thing I put into my body was water. It's possible that iron was built up in my bowels prior to, but that seems a stretch.
You don't possess the knowledge of human biology necessary to be able to know what caused it. Maybe something was or started bleeding.
Quote:
I agree, but, I thought we were pretty on-topic? OP was talking about fasting, after all
Definitely on topic, but this conversation could go on forever, it's me that wants to keep on it. I highly recommend you get ahold of all of the work Steve Novella has ever done, especially this lecture course . He ain't just any quackbuster, he's the "Director of the JREF’s new Science-Based Medicine project."
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 05:17 AM   #385
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sigil, the city of doors
Posts: 14,571
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
What does that mean..?
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

In other word be wary of not becoming what you fight, be wary of taking the bad side of what you fight to overcome it. An example of that would be to use terroristical tactics in fighting terrorist, use torture, etc... Or a democraty using anti democratic means to maintain itself (banning some political party). Examples abound.

Last edited by Aepervius; 9th June 2011 at 05:20 AM.
Aepervius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 06:36 AM   #386
Pup
Philosopher
 
Pup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
Also, that doesn't mean that there isn't proof, just that I'm not going to go out of my way to find it for you when it won't have any bearing on your feelings toward it in the first place.
I was going to say that proof would certainly have bearings on my feelings toward fasting and "detoxifying."

If there were toxins which harmed the body, and fasting was the easiest and healthiest overall way to do it, and there was evidence for that, I'd certainly feel differently about it, and might try it.

But then I read this...

Quote:
I smoke, but quit when I fast, and when I fasted I pooped out tar from day 6 until the last day
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Are you serious? You're criticizing the "toxins" in the average American diet, and you smoke?

I eat a fairly good diet by modern medical standards, low fat, high fiber, no caffeine, alcohol maybe once a month, get enough vitamins and minerals without supplements, <2,000 calories a day, and I'm in excellent health so it seems to be working, though I still eat normally processed foods with their "toxins."

But I can't imagine ever being stupid enough to smoke. That's about the most direct way of putting real toxins in one's body that I can think of, and it's cheaper and easier and more convenient not to do it, than to do it.

So I'm thinking this isn't really about what's best overall for one's health, and I can see why you wouldn't want to bother providing evidence. There's some emotional component here I can't fathom, where one would choose to poison the body and then try to get rid of that poison, rather than just avoid the poison in the first place.
Pup is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 07:21 AM   #387
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,577
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
I'm not saying, "it was tar," as much as I'm saying it was a "tar-like-substance." But it wasn't anything "else," [as in, side effect from a strange digestive process because of the lack of nutrients while digesting "whatever else"] because literally the only thing I put into my body was water. It's possible that iron was built up in my bowels prior to, but that seems a stretch.

I thought you originally stated that you took vitamins as well. Most multi-vitamins do contain a fair amount of iron.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 07:37 AM   #388
Sawbones79
Critical Thinker
 
Sawbones79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 317
If the "tar" was indeed endogenous, it might be bile products. Anyway, as for the OP: Fasting is one way amongst many (including drugs, extreme exhaustion, self-suggestion) to achieve a state of altered conciousness. Going from this to calling it a supernatural or spiritual experience requires either extraordinary evidence or a leap of faith.
Sawbones79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 08:05 AM   #389
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 16,668
Quote:
Uncivil Engineers?
Never met a civil one, despite the job title.

Originally Posted by Joe McGee
I think you're leaning on the word systems too hard. I absolutely see science-mindedness as a tendency or proclivity rather than a system. For example, we like things that work.
That may be. But still, a lot of scientists are really no different from anyone else in any significant way. If there is autism, it's such a minor case, and so wide-spread (even outside of science) that I'm not sure you can call it a defect. It's just the way humans, as a whole, ARE.

Last edited by Dinwar; 9th June 2011 at 08:20 AM. Reason: to avoid double posting
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 08:12 AM   #390
I Ratant
Penultimate Amazing
 
I Ratant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 19,258
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Uncivil Engineers?
Quote:
Dinwar

Uncivil Engineers?
Never met a civil one, despite the job title.
.
The uncivil ones in aerospace tended to have problems interfacing with the workers, who might let something dumb happen if shouted at by the engineer.
I Ratant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 08:25 AM   #391
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 16,668
The uncivil ones in construction take the view (and I quote) "If my subs (subcontractors) are happy I'm not doing my job." Freaking pouring concrete in a freaking thunderstorm.....
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 11:45 AM   #392
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
Never met a civil one, despite the job title.

That may be. But still, a lot of scientists are really no different from anyone else in any significant way. If there is autism, it's such a minor case, and so wide-spread (even outside of science) that I'm not sure you can call it a defect. It's just the way humans, as a whole, ARE.
I agree and it's important for a healthy mind to realize the brain's a kluge in a lot of ways. Naturalism isn't really so great. Mediocrity principle and all that.
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 11:53 AM   #393
Dinwar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 16,668
My thing is, the argument "All scientists need a bit of autism" doesn't stand if scientists aren't significantly different from the wider population. The argument, as stated in this thread, is that the autism is causally linked to science. However, if there's no significant difference between scientists and the general public (and I've seen no studies indicating there is, and a LOT of anecdotal evidence to suggest that there isn't), what's actually happening is that a bit of autism is merely a human trait, and the evidence (those with autism) is being cherry-picked to support the conclusion (picking scientists with a touch of autism).

In other words, even if all scientists DO have a miniscule, nearly indetectable amount of autism, that's not enough to prove that autism and science are linked.
Dinwar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 12:02 PM   #394
Joey McGee
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,307
I don't see anyone in that article claiming that the benefits are exclusive to scientists. There are lots of lifestyles that use similar abilities, and you would think there would be a matrix of spectrums of this kind of thing, that's included in the overall theory of evolutionary biology and neuroscience I was talking about.
Joey McGee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 03:11 PM   #395
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
You appear to be unaware of the fact that musicians tend to make their living on metaphore.
This

______________________________

Yes, Shakespeare wrote a few plays about madness. That two of his most popular were about madness is not evidence of Shakespeare's madness anymore than my saying that you wrote several posts about madness is evidence that you are suffering from madness. It is possible that the plays are popular because the madness described in those plays makes for a fascinating story.

_____________________________

Christ on a bike, for the last time: just because Plato said something does not mean it is true. Plato is not the Divine Master whose words form the font of all that is True and Good. I don't know where you developed your idée fixe on Plato but a good therapist can help you overcome it.

____________________________

There is no divine element to epilepsy. Asserting that there is is offensive. Please stop it.

____________________________

There is no demon possession. Let me close with a question. When you earned your liberal arts degree, did they make any attempt t to teach you how to evaluate evidence? Because citing this bigoted, conspiratorial, kook-filled website ( http://www.jesus-is-savior.com ) is nonsense. There is no evidence at that site.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 9th June 2011 at 03:40 PM.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 05:37 PM   #396
case#46cw39
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 607
Top 5 Mad Geniuses
"Despite evidence of a link between genius and madness, no one has proved that such a link exists. However, scientists at the University of Toronto have discovered that creative people possess little to no "latent inhibition," the unconscious ability to reject unimportant or irrelevant stimuli. As University of Toronto psychology professor Jordan Peterson puts it, "This means that creative individuals remain in* contact with the extra information constantly streaming in from the environment. "
http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic...mad-genius.htm
case#46cw39 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 06:37 PM   #397
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I thought you originally stated that you took vitamins as well. Most multi-vitamins do contain a fair amount of iron.
Not back then, that's my new regimen for fasting. At the time of the tar I was ingesting only water for the whole period.

Originally Posted by Pup View Post
I was going to say that proof would certainly have bearings on my feelings toward fasting and "detoxifying."

If there were toxins which harmed the body, and fasting was the easiest and healthiest overall way to do it, and there was evidence for that, I'd certainly feel differently about it, and might try it.

But then I read this...
I'm surprised I can sway your opinion so easily.
Quote:
But I can't imagine ever being stupid enough to smoke.
Please refrain from insinuating that you can judge my intelligence based on personal choices for which you have no knowledge of the reasons behind them.

Quote:
That's about the most direct way of putting real toxins in one's body that I can think of, and it's cheaper and easier and more convenient not to do it, than to do it.

So I'm thinking this isn't really about what's best overall for one's health, and I can see why you wouldn't want to bother providing evidence. There's some emotional component here I can't fathom, where one would choose to poison the body and then try to get rid of that poison, rather than just avoid the poison in the first place.
Well, I'm glad we're discussing the topic of fasting based on my experiences, and not my word-choice when explaining said topic. If everybody did exactly what their beliefs were to a "T" then there would be no purpose to discuss and learn from those actions.

Leave my personal choices out of this, unless you'd like to start a new thread about "Flaming smokers."

Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
you clearly gave that impression and think it was anyway
Yes, I do, but...
Quote:
You don't possess the knowledge of human biology necessary to be able to know what caused it.
How do you know? I'm saying, "I believe it was tar because it seemed to have the consistancy and attributes of tar to me," however, you're taking my meaning as, "It was tar and there's no way it could be anything else."

I'm incredibly open to the idea that I could be wrong. My Point is that neither of us can be conclusive, so the material is inconclusive, and that's that. At this time proof is of no importance to me. After I conduct the 14-day fast I will get back to you, but until then my thoughts were merely meant to be there for the masses as one who has fasted.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" comes to mind when interpreting either of our proofs from the other's POV.

Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Ah that's a good quote! It goes alongside the idea of the Universal Law of Attraction, as well.
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 06:55 PM   #398
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,111
I tried fasting once when I was 21 or so, along with a few other friends, having heard it might be useful to gain some kind of insight or clarity or some such enlightenment. Alas, I was then, as I am 40-odd years later, a user of dangerous machinery, and found after a couple of days that it's really stupid to fast if you need to be alert and remember where all your fingers are. No doubt I'm also still an unenlightened oaf, but I still use dangerous machinery, still have all my fingers, toes and teeth, and I eat when I'm hungry.
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière)

A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 07:06 PM   #399
Larechar
Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I tried fasting once when I was 21 or so, along with a few other friends, having heard it might be useful to gain some kind of insight or clarity or some such enlightenment. Alas, I was then, as I am 40-odd years later, a user of dangerous machinery, and found after a couple of days that it's really stupid to fast if you need to be alert and remember where all your fingers are. No doubt I'm also still an unenlightened oaf, but I still use dangerous machinery, still have all my fingers, toes and teeth, and I eat when I'm hungry.
Yeah I can see how that would be a problem!

When I first started fasting I almost lost my job because I had such a huge headache for four days. A disclaimer, if this were an advice thread, would be, "Danger, don't attempt unless you are stubborn! Also, having Faith in unprovable things is almost a necessity! Don't attempt if you enjoy defining things and/or critically think often!"
Larechar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2011, 08:09 PM   #400
leonAzul
Illuminator
 
leonAzul's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: noWhereLand
Posts: 4,362
Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Hey he is the author of my favorite quote don't throw stone at him , bro !

"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
What does that mean..?
"Whoever struggles with monsters, well sees to it that he does not become a monster from it. And whenever you take a long look into an abyss, the abyss looks back into you as well."
__________________
"Sometimes I sits and thinks, and sometimes I just sits."
- Satchel Paige

"No man should have to clean up after another man's dog."
- Gerald Ford
leonAzul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.