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14th June 2011, 12:54 PM | #561 |
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So now, if I read this nonsense right, PSI works only if you're willing to accept it as working without actually trying to determine if it works, and in addition if you don't accept that it has happened it will unhappen? Can you explain what possible usefulness this phenomenon might have, even if it did exist?
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14th June 2011, 12:56 PM | #562 |
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14th June 2011, 01:10 PM | #563 |
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." |
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14th June 2011, 01:19 PM | #564 |
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14th June 2011, 01:28 PM | #565 |
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14th June 2011, 01:30 PM | #566 |
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14th June 2011, 02:02 PM | #567 |
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14th June 2011, 02:05 PM | #568 |
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Really? That's your response? I would have thought it was obvious that valuable, irreplaceable objects are stolen every day all over the world. The list of distraught and desperate robbery victims must be endless. Of course, these situations would be perfect for testing: they contain every element of a notable, successful demonstration of PSI power. Hell, the distressed theft victims were even scientists. If it worked for them then surely it would work for distressed theft victims that were believers. If 90 soldiers walked into a field and one was blown up by a mine, then I cannot imagine emotions more powerful that those of the remaining 89 soldiers. Hey, I am sure the harp theft didn't want to get caught but the dowser found him anyways. Let's talk about New York City in 1977. Six people were been killed by a serial killer. Emotions ran high given that the murders occurred in all different parts of the city. Surely a dowser could have used the emotional energy of seven million people to catch one person who didn't want to get caught. The thing I hate most about woo is when it is used to fleece the weak or mourning. The second thing I hate is the ridiculous inconsistencies. If a dowsing test doesn't work then there were too many skeptics present. But if no skeptics are present then it works. If that is the case then there must be a distance element to the goat effect. There is no world-wide skeptic field that interferes with PSI because dowsers and other PSI professionals make money peddling their services. If the skeptic/goat field were that powerful then no one would ever observe PSI. So the soldiers in the minefield could dowse their way to safety. The homicide squad could dowse the location of the murder weapon. Furthermore, the inconsistency is highlighted by the number of dowsers who claim that oil companies hire dowsers all the time. There are no intense emotion there but dowsing allegedly seems to work just fine under those conditions. And the straw that broke the camel's back: retrocausality. That's not just nonsense, that is nonsense to the fourth power. I laugh and bow to a worth adversary. |
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14th June 2011, 02:13 PM | #569 |
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14th June 2011, 03:07 PM | #570 |
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14th June 2011, 03:13 PM | #571 |
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14th June 2011, 03:40 PM | #572 |
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14th June 2011, 04:13 PM | #573 |
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So you have determined for yourself that something is real, but it is only demonstrable to you, cannot be confirmed by, for or to anyone else, and has no visible consequences that can be pointed to as evidence of efficacy? Can you explain in what practical way this phenomenon can be differentiated from a dream or a delusion?
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Moličre) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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14th June 2011, 11:28 PM | #574 |
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15th June 2011, 12:07 AM | #575 |
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15th June 2011, 12:38 AM | #576 |
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15th June 2011, 12:44 AM | #577 |
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Yes with the physical world you can find out. I suppose one can draw the analogy with this and the world of the mind, it has no physical molecules to test, there are concepts instead. I use a process of contemplating concepts of understanding and experience. In which I repeatedly question and examine concepts in the light of a general and current knowledge and understanding. Alongside a contemplation of how concepts fit together, mirror others through analogy, fit a conceptual architecture and could contradict etc. I suppose an intellectual grooming or preening.
One adopts an intellectual posture within this mind world and relates it to ones self and to reality as experienced.
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I found that this was only an issue initially. Once I had reached a point where I had time to reflect on the early days alongside the present and my contemplative record a stability and groundedness was normal. Furthermore the real physical world is ones unexplored country in a sense, your sample of truth. As such a closeness, empathy and communion with nature and day to day experience is my daily sustenance and pleasure. [quote]
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The life of the mystic is its own reward from moment to moment and along with the Buddha one relinquishes ones need for reward or destination. ie heaven is also irrelevant, while being present in every moment and act, as nature itself. One realises that the goal is the alignment or orientation within oneself, alongside a peacefull presence an wholesome life externally. At the end of the day you discover that you are the same as everyone else, the only difference is you have tweaked a few thoughts and feelings, you are no different. So you then continue on your merry way, tweaking a few feathers here and there and enjoy life. I realise I haven't articulated divinity, try again later |
15th June 2011, 12:52 AM | #578 |
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15th June 2011, 12:54 AM | #579 |
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15th June 2011, 01:01 AM | #581 |
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Last answer from me, since as I said, this is going nowhere: I and many with me have read several of those books collecting anecdotes that you use as evidence, not to mention that most people at one time or another experience happenings that at first glance seem to point o the working of powers unknown to science.
Read, seen, considered, rejected. Your "PSI" is now on the level of the invisible unicorn in my backyard, as no matter how strong the evidence against it you will invent a factor like "livestock effect" and "retro-causality" to keep believing in something that's obviously important to you. I repeat: If it's vital to you to prove the existence of unknown powers, than arrange an experience or study to do so! I'd love to be proven wrong and start developing my mental powers rightaway, I just can't see that happening any time soon. |
15th June 2011, 01:06 AM | #582 |
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Dowsing doesn't work.
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Psi is indistinguishable from nothing, and the reasons you give are indistinguishable from special pleading.
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15th June 2011, 03:58 AM | #584 |
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My next door neighbour has a well. During the drilling the foreman told me that you can drill anywhere around here and you will eventually hit water. If these alleged Water Board dowsers were subjected to a real test,they would fail as they all do.
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15th June 2011, 04:04 AM | #585 |
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15th June 2011, 04:39 AM | #586 |
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We asked the power company to come out and mark an underground electric line a few years ago, so we could dig post holes for a fence.
The first time, the man forgot his electronic equipment, but he said he could dowse where the line ran. We demanded he come back with his equipment, but he offered to dowse while he was there. We'd cleared the land ourselves years before and knew the approximate location of everything underground, since we were the first to have a home on the site, except possible native tribes centuries before. The electric line had been buried more deeply by some leveling done afterwards and brush had grown up over it, so there was no natural sign of a sunken area along the power line--which is why we needed its location pinpointed precisely, even though we knew approximately where it was. But the leveling had left a slight tractor tire rut perpendicular to the power line, visible under the grass of the mowed lawn. His dowsing rod indicated the tractor tire rut. We said the line was nowhere near there, and pointed to the power pole and where the electric line entered the house, and showed the tractor rut didn't run between the two. He agreed, but couldn't figure out why his dowsing rod had reacted to the tractor rut. He was not only gullible, but stupid. For the clue-impaired: he assumed that buried power lines left a sunken area and subconsciously worked the dowsing rod where he noticed a sunken area. We insisted he come back with electronic equipment, which he did, and it showed the line under the slightly mounded, brushy area as we expected. Of course people believe things work. They send money to Nigeria, too. People are gullible. |
15th June 2011, 04:41 AM | #587 |
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15th June 2011, 05:17 AM | #588 |
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15th June 2011, 06:22 AM | #589 |
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There's an old thread about water board dowsers here.
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Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice... |
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15th June 2011, 06:24 AM | #590 |
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What's neuroscience then? All mental events are physical events in the brain. The natural order of cause and effect is not interrupted in the mind, this is the dangerous delusion.
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15th June 2011, 06:26 AM | #591 |
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Regularly? I find that hard to believe.
If they do hire dowsers, that is evidence either of their gullibility or their desire to throw work to friends and relatives who claim to be dowsers. It is not evidence that dowsing works. ETA:.................................. One million dollars awaits the dowser who can demonstrate his powers under controlled conditions. |
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15th June 2011, 07:45 AM | #592 |
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I just called the local water board and they had a good laugh when I asked them if they used dowsers. If you do find a dowser who can do it punshhh,get him to take the MDC and go halves on the money.
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15th June 2011, 08:20 AM | #593 |
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Yes fine, there is an interplay between the brain and the mind, a kind of symbiosis. You have left the intellect's use of the contents of the mind out there.
Do you consider that a concept has a place in neuroscience?, could Dali painting have been in principle predicted? Are you negating free will?
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However with an openness and receptiveness to whatever unknown aspects of existence are involved during any moment( alignment again) This is what I wrote a couple of weeks ago in !kagens "human" thread; "Humanity is a small ants nest occupying a square meter of dust in a remote corner of a desert. A leaf blows in from somewhere, an ant climbs to the top of the leaf, surveys its surroundings and shouts out "we understand the secrets and workings of existence."" Your wrong about the debate being over P.s. I am going hill walking for a few days tomorrow so won't reply till next week. |
15th June 2011, 08:31 AM | #594 |
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Pfft. I doubt that all the books you have read about it add up to this one alone. Does it look like it is a mere collection of anecdotes? If that's what you believe then challenge your belief and read it yourself.
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In my experience, JREFers are either in denial of their experiences and hiding from them, or they exaggerate to score ideological and debate points. When I dig deeper I am disappointed in their weak-ass noob experiences of "happenings".
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Its not vital to me to prove the existence of unknown powers to you. It WAS vital to me that I prove it to myself, which I have successfully done. You guys are on your own. I would help you if I thought you had what it takes. Maybe there is a JREFer somewhere who does. I'll hang out and keep my eyes open for him or her and occasionally participate in a discussion if that's all right with you. |
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." |
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15th June 2011, 08:51 AM | #595 |
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Nope, the brain is the mind, no rational argument or evidence to the contrary. Hyperbole and semantics aren't those.
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15th June 2011, 09:10 AM | #596 |
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15th June 2011, 09:40 AM | #597 |
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15th June 2011, 09:47 AM | #598 |
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15th June 2011, 10:27 AM | #599 |
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Once someone with an opposing worldview tries to replicate my methods, they won't work. The worldview of the mystic is part of the mental alchemy. It takes a very special kind of skeptic to entertain notions without disbelief and try things without a secret desire for a negative result. The pathological skepticism of the average JREFer would taint their own efforts. Oh sure skeptics all say they are special but when I test them they fail.
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The way is by inducing verifiable components in a sequence of psychic experiences so that you can verify for yourself. |
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." |
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15th June 2011, 10:37 AM | #600 |
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