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Tags bible , buddhism , christianity , god , hinduism , islam , jesus

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Old 14th June 2011, 12:54 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I don't think it would work that way. What unit of measurement are you going to use? Also going one-at-a-time is useless because of retro-causality. Psi transcends time and space.
So now, if I read this nonsense right, PSI works only if you're willing to accept it as working without actually trying to determine if it works, and in addition if you don't accept that it has happened it will unhappen? Can you explain what possible usefulness this phenomenon might have, even if it did exist?
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Old 14th June 2011, 12:56 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So now, if I read this nonsense right, PSI works only if you're willing to accept it as working without actually trying to determine if it works, and in addition if you don't accept that it has happened it will unhappen? Can you explain what possible usefulness this phenomenon might have, even if it did exist?
Neo-Theosophy.
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Old 14th June 2011, 01:10 PM   #563
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So now, if I read this nonsense right, PSI works only if you're willing to accept it as working without actually trying to determine if it works, and in addition if you don't accept that it has happened it will unhappen? Can you explain what possible usefulness this phenomenon might have, even if it did exist?

I've said it before - the individual can and should determine if it works for himself. By engaging in mysticism I have determined for myself that psi is real. Science is on its own.
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Old 14th June 2011, 01:19 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Why can't you just read a few books about it?

You mean, the way you have read the Bible, Qur'an, Tao te Ching, Upanishads, etc., before claiming to be an expert in comparative religion?


Oh, wait...
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Old 14th June 2011, 01:28 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Can you explain what possible usefulness this phenomenon might have, even if it did exist?
Making some people feel superior at the expense of others who don't "get" it?
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Old 14th June 2011, 01:30 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Making some people feel superior at the expense of others who don't "get" it?
No, Neo-Theosophy! The idea that requiring proof is detrimental to the Human State because the Universe only opens those doors for the people who are courageous enough to have Faith in it!
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Old 14th June 2011, 02:02 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by Larechar View Post
No, Neo-Theosophy! The idea that requiring proof is detrimental to the Human State because the Universe only opens those doors for the people who are courageous enough to have Faith in it!
My late wife,although a perfect partner, was also a Theosophist. We agreed to differ on that one. The Secret Doctrine is one the of the funniest books ever written.
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Old 14th June 2011, 02:05 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Ladewig
In fact this type of story is PERFECT for scientific testing.
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
How? Do you picture scientists stealing little girls harps?
Really? That's your response? I would have thought it was obvious that valuable, irreplaceable objects are stolen every day all over the world. The list of distraught and desperate robbery victims must be endless. Of course, these situations would be perfect for testing: they contain every element of a notable, successful demonstration of PSI power. Hell, the distressed theft victims were even scientists. If it worked for them then surely it would work for distressed theft victims that were believers.
Originally Posted by Ladewig
If PSI worked the way it was claimed to work in this anecdote, the Yellow Pages would have all sorts of ads for dowsers. Police would hire dowsers to find murder weapons and other evidence. The military would train dowsers to do battlefield work.
Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
What about the intense emotions of the enemy army? Don't you think they will have an influence?
If 90 soldiers walked into a field and one was blown up by a mine, then I cannot imagine emotions more powerful that those of the remaining 89 soldiers.


Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
What about the intense desire of the murderer to avoid being caught? What about the emotions of skeptics who don't want to see psi effectively used and therefore proven?
Hey, I am sure the harp theft didn't want to get caught but the dowser found him anyways.

Let's talk about New York City in 1977. Six people were been killed by a serial killer. Emotions ran high given that the murders occurred in all different parts of the city. Surely a dowser could have used the emotional energy of seven million people to catch one person who didn't want to get caught.


Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Psychic functioning takes place against a transpersonal backdrop of conflicting emotions, desires, beliefs, expectations, intentions, worldviews. Thats why its so elusive, inconsistent, fluid. Thats why the 'trickster' archetype is universally associated with psi.
The thing I hate most about woo is when it is used to fleece the weak or mourning. The second thing I hate is the ridiculous inconsistencies. If a dowsing test doesn't work then there were too many skeptics present. But if no skeptics are present then it works. If that is the case then there must be a distance element to the goat effect. There is no world-wide skeptic field that interferes with PSI because dowsers and other PSI professionals make money peddling their services. If the skeptic/goat field were that powerful then no one would ever observe PSI. So the soldiers in the minefield could dowse their way to safety. The homicide squad could dowse the location of the murder weapon. Furthermore, the inconsistency is highlighted by the number of dowsers who claim that oil companies hire dowsers all the time. There are no intense emotion there but dowsing allegedly seems to work just fine under those conditions.

And the straw that broke the camel's back: retrocausality.
That's not just nonsense, that is nonsense to the fourth power. I laugh and bow to a worth adversary.
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Last edited by Ladewig; 14th June 2011 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 14th June 2011, 02:13 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Its not the only argument I've put forth. I've argued that the individual has the ability and maybe even the duty to go where science can't and see for himself that psi is real. This is similar to the argument of the OP. I've argued that skeptics are too damn lazy in that they don't read ****. That they are woefully ignorant of the body of parapsychological evidence and what it means and what the philosophical implications are for religion and science.

I've also argued that the sheep-goat effect and the parapsychological experimenter effect are real and that they limit the ability of science to deal with psi. There is evidence out there that these effects are real and therefore they must be taken onto account.

I've also argued that psi is a component of classical mysticism. The Catholic charisms, the Buddhist iddhi and the Hindu siddhi are all different mystical models of the same psychic abilities. Mystical exercises alter the consciousness of the mystic and strengthen psychic ability.

"It is true that certain psychic faculties capable of a worldly application, such as the Dibba-cakkhu (clairvoyance), Dibba-sota (clairaudience), Mano-Maya-Kaya (projection of the ‘astral body’) and other paranormal powers are developed in the course of Buddhist meditation. . . .The Buddha and the Arhats possessed such powers and when need arose they exercised them for the sake of the ignorant who demanded ‘signs and wonders.’ But in general the Buddha deplored their use, preferring to spread the Dhamma by the ‘miracle of teaching’ and the self-propagating power of truth. To those not yet fully emancipated from worldly delusion they can become attachment-forming faculties, and as such have to be guarded against and overcome in the struggle for Nibbanna. In the Buddhist view, one who embarks on concentration exercises to obtain supernormal powers (Iddhi) is doing so with the wrong intention and at great danger to himself. If all power corrupts, supernormal power can corrupt superlatively." (Mahathera, 1975, p.iv)

"I am well aware, however, of the danger of tying spiritual belief to any scientific system. . . . This is not to say that I consider things like the oracle and the ability of monks to survive nights spent out in freezing condition to be evidence of magical powers. Yet I cannot agree with our Chinese Brothers and sisters, who hold that Tibetan acceptance of these phenomena is evidence of our backwardness and barbarity. Even from the most rigorous scientific viewpoint, this is not an objective attitude. At the same time, even if a principle is accepted, it does not mean that everything connected with it is valid. . . . . Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding. This, of course, is where science can help. After all, we consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . . . . Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism." (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)
There are no such things as siddhi.
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Old 14th June 2011, 03:07 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Can you explain what possible usefulness this phenomenon might have, even if it did exist?
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Making some people feel superior at the expense of others who don't "get" it?
Originally Posted by Larechar

No, Neo-Theosophy! The idea that requiring proof is detrimental to the Human State because the Universe only opens those doors for the people who are courageous enough to have Faith in it!
And the purpose of Neo-Theosophy is....?

Making some people feel superior at the expense of others who don't "get" it?
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Old 14th June 2011, 03:13 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
And the purpose of Neo-Theosophy is....?
Ummm. Yes.

But, no, I don't think it's a superiority clause; I think they just truly believe it, and its a way to conject that it's why science hasn't proven/disproven it yet.
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Old 14th June 2011, 03:40 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I've said it before - the individual can and should determine if it works for himself. By engaging in mysticism I have determined for myself that psi is real. Science is on its own.
The tires on my car require air pressure of 35PSI, the only kind of psi that's real.
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Old 14th June 2011, 04:13 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I've said it before - the individual can and should determine if it works for himself. By engaging in mysticism I have determined for myself that psi is real. Science is on its own.
So you have determined for yourself that something is real, but it is only demonstrable to you, cannot be confirmed by, for or to anyone else, and has no visible consequences that can be pointed to as evidence of efficacy? Can you explain in what practical way this phenomenon can be differentiated from a dream or a delusion?
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Old 14th June 2011, 11:28 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
What hit them was reality. The reality that dowsing doesn't work.
Here in the UK the water board uses dowsers regularly when seeking watercourses and leaks.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:07 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Here in the UK the water board uses dowsers regularly when seeking watercourses and leaks.
So?
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:38 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Here in the UK the water board uses dowsers regularly when seeking watercourses and leaks.
Really? Which ones?
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:44 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Exactly, and some "spirtual" conclusions you come to might be useful or mesh with the natural reality you live in. But how do you know if your conclusions are real? In natural philosophy you can find out. In mysticism you don't have the same reality feedback
Yes with the physical world you can find out. I suppose one can draw the analogy with this and the world of the mind, it has no physical molecules to test, there are concepts instead. I use a process of contemplating concepts of understanding and experience. In which I repeatedly question and examine concepts in the light of a general and current knowledge and understanding. Alongside a contemplation of how concepts fit together, mirror others through analogy, fit a conceptual architecture and could contradict etc. I suppose an intellectual grooming or preening.
One adopts an intellectual posture within this mind world and relates it to ones self and to reality as experienced.

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Sure, I would just add that if you have a grasp on nature you can experience anything you like and return with some kind of benefit from the experience, just like you do when you go to sleep and dream. The difference is that you are conscious and are playing with the juxtaposition of your lifetime experience of physical input and your imagine, plus your ancestral memory. I think ancestral memory is kind of an illusion and kind of real but it's a common enough experience in shamanism or psychedelics and I think it's an interesting evolutionary psychology theory. The point is that you have to keep a grip on the natural world because that's an integral part of your biology. Like I said, why ruin the fun by pretending the internal stuff is real? Coming back to the reality of nature is what keeps you sane and able to enjoy those experiences.
Yes keeping ones feet on the ground and living in the real world is important.
I found that this was only an issue initially. Once I had reached a point where I had time to reflect on the early days alongside the present and my contemplative record a stability and groundedness was normal. Furthermore the real physical world is ones unexplored country in a sense, your sample of truth. As such a closeness, empathy and communion with nature and day to day experience is my daily sustenance and pleasure.
[quote]
Quote:
I would argue that the next greatest virtue is what we call peer review or community involvement. I can't claim any kind of special knowledge or ability at this point, too much of what I think and know came from the efforts of other people, but we all share in it at the same time. I know I'm right, it's not an argument from authority, but the greatest strength we have in knowledge is each other.
This is unfortunately a difficulty in mysticism there is no peer review as there are so few practitioners these days. One can participate in religious and spiritual groups, however mystics will often practice alone.

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I'm not aware of any sane materialist philosophers who make any claims regarding what we don't know or are not aware of
Well I'm not going to mention any names
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Can you say that it's anything other than artful descriptions or interpretations or experiences that can also be equally as accurately described by natural philosophy?
Well the answer to this depends more on another question, is there a divine existence, or are we deluding ourselves. If there is the answer is yes, if not the answer is no.

Quote:
Can you articulate a description of your vision of this naturalistic divinity beyond "Good things are good" and "Better things are better" and "things that are so good it transcends my understanding of good are divine? Because if things just happen and m-theory is correct yadda yadda, there is no natural process in nature, things just happen because they can, and that doesn't give much to aspire to. How do we then know if we are in alignment with it?
This is difficult to put across briefly. Again the issue of the existence or not of divinity is never far away and yet there are altruistic perspectives in which the answer to this question is irrelevant. I currently have a faith in its existence, however really it is an irrelevant question to me.
The life of the mystic is its own reward from moment to moment and along with the Buddha one relinquishes ones need for reward or destination. ie heaven is also irrelevant, while being present in every moment and act, as nature itself. One realises that the goal is the alignment or orientation within oneself, alongside a peacefull presence an wholesome life externally.
At the end of the day you discover that you are the same as everyone else, the only difference is you have tweaked a few thoughts and feelings, you are no different. So you then continue on your merry way, tweaking a few feathers here and there and enjoy life.

I realise I haven't articulated divinity, try again later

Last edited by punshhh; 15th June 2011 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:52 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
So?
Someone thinks it works.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:54 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Aitch View Post
Really? Which ones?
The one in Norfolk, they were devining around my farther inlaws the other day.
I will ask and find out what happened.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:58 AM   #580
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Some evidence would be nice while you're at it.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:01 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Its not the only argument I've put forth. I've argued that the individual has the ability and maybe even the duty to go where science can't and see for himself that psi is real. This is similar to the argument of the OP. I've argued that skeptics are too damn lazy in that they don't read ****. That they are woefully ignorant of the body of parapsychological evidence and what it means and what the philosophical implications are for religion and science.

I've also argued that the sheep-goat effect and the parapsychological experimenter effect are real and that they limit the ability of science to deal with psi. There is evidence out there that these effects are real and therefore they must be taken onto account.

I've also argued that psi is a component of classical mysticism. The Catholic charisms, the Buddhist iddhi and the Hindu siddhi are all different mystical models of the same psychic abilities. Mystical exercises alter the consciousness of the mystic and strengthen psychic ability.

"It is true that certain psychic faculties capable of a worldly application, such as the Dibba-cakkhu (clairvoyance), Dibba-sota (clairaudience), Mano-Maya-Kaya (projection of the ‘astral body’) and other paranormal powers are developed in the course of Buddhist meditation. . . .The Buddha and the Arhats possessed such powers and when need arose they exercised them for the sake of the ignorant who demanded ‘signs and wonders.’ But in general the Buddha deplored their use, preferring to spread the Dhamma by the ‘miracle of teaching’ and the self-propagating power of truth. To those not yet fully emancipated from worldly delusion they can become attachment-forming faculties, and as such have to be guarded against and overcome in the struggle for Nibbanna. In the Buddhist view, one who embarks on concentration exercises to obtain supernormal powers (Iddhi) is doing so with the wrong intention and at great danger to himself. If all power corrupts, supernormal power can corrupt superlatively." (Mahathera, 1975, p.iv)

"I am well aware, however, of the danger of tying spiritual belief to any scientific system. . . . This is not to say that I consider things like the oracle and the ability of monks to survive nights spent out in freezing condition to be evidence of magical powers. Yet I cannot agree with our Chinese Brothers and sisters, who hold that Tibetan acceptance of these phenomena is evidence of our backwardness and barbarity. Even from the most rigorous scientific viewpoint, this is not an objective attitude. At the same time, even if a principle is accepted, it does not mean that everything connected with it is valid. . . . . Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding. This, of course, is where science can help. After all, we consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . . . . Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism." (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)
Last answer from me, since as I said, this is going nowhere: I and many with me have read several of those books collecting anecdotes that you use as evidence, not to mention that most people at one time or another experience happenings that at first glance seem to point o the working of powers unknown to science.
Read, seen, considered, rejected. Your "PSI" is now on the level of the invisible unicorn in my backyard, as no matter how strong the evidence against it you will invent a factor like "livestock effect" and "retro-causality" to keep believing in something that's obviously important to you.
I repeat: If it's vital to you to prove the existence of unknown powers, than arrange an experience or study to do so! I'd love to be proven wrong and start developing my mental powers rightaway, I just can't see that happening any time soon.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:06 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
The author and her daughter had intense emotions about it, and that is enough. The dowser doesn't need to have intense emotions too. The dowser is like a middle-man, he lets their emotions do the work.
Dowsing doesn't work.

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How? Do you picture scientists stealing little girls harps?
Get a little girl with a harp. Steal the harp. It's not complicated.

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What about the intense emotions of the enemy army? Don't you think they will have an influence?
Well, if they do, we can measure that influence.

Quote:
What about the intense desire of the murderer to avoid being caught?
If that desire has an effect, we can measure that effect.

Quote:
What about the emotions of skeptics who don't want to see psi effectively used and therefore proven?
That's just baloney. We'd love to see psi work. It's just that it doesn't.

Quote:
Psychic functioning takes place against a transpersonal backdrop of conflicting emotions, desires, beliefs, expectations, intentions, worldviews. Thats why its so elusive, inconsistent, fluid.
Actually, it's not inconsistent at all. It's perfectly consistent. It consistently never performs better than chance.

Psi is indistinguishable from nothing, and the reasons you give are indistinguishable from special pleading.

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Thats why the 'trickster' archetype is universally associated with psi.
Except that it isn't.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:29 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
I've said it before - the individual can and should determine if it works for himself. By engaging in mysticism I have determined for myself that psi is real.
Which neatly encapsulates why mysticism is harmful.

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Science is on its own.
Perhaps. On the other hand, science actually works.
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Old 15th June 2011, 03:58 AM   #584
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My next door neighbour has a well. During the drilling the foreman told me that you can drill anywhere around here and you will eventually hit water. If these alleged Water Board dowsers were subjected to a real test,they would fail as they all do.
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Old 15th June 2011, 04:04 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Some evidence would be nice while you're at it.
Mystics don't do evidence.
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Old 15th June 2011, 04:39 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
The one in Norfolk, they were devining around my farther inlaws the other day.
I will ask and find out what happened.
We asked the power company to come out and mark an underground electric line a few years ago, so we could dig post holes for a fence.

The first time, the man forgot his electronic equipment, but he said he could dowse where the line ran. We demanded he come back with his equipment, but he offered to dowse while he was there.

We'd cleared the land ourselves years before and knew the approximate location of everything underground, since we were the first to have a home on the site, except possible native tribes centuries before.

The electric line had been buried more deeply by some leveling done afterwards and brush had grown up over it, so there was no natural sign of a sunken area along the power line--which is why we needed its location pinpointed precisely, even though we knew approximately where it was.

But the leveling had left a slight tractor tire rut perpendicular to the power line, visible under the grass of the mowed lawn.

His dowsing rod indicated the tractor tire rut.

We said the line was nowhere near there, and pointed to the power pole and where the electric line entered the house, and showed the tractor rut didn't run between the two. He agreed, but couldn't figure out why his dowsing rod had reacted to the tractor rut.

He was not only gullible, but stupid. For the clue-impaired: he assumed that buried power lines left a sunken area and subconsciously worked the dowsing rod where he noticed a sunken area.

We insisted he come back with electronic equipment, which he did, and it showed the line under the slightly mounded, brushy area as we expected.

Of course people believe things work. They send money to Nigeria, too. People are gullible.
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Old 15th June 2011, 04:41 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Here in the UK the water board uses dowsers regularly when seeking watercourses and leaks.
It's away to Anecdotes Anonymous with you.
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Old 15th June 2011, 05:17 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
It's away to Anecdotes Anonymous with you.
If punshhh says it then it must be true. No evidence required in the imaginary mystic world.
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Old 15th June 2011, 06:22 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
The one in Norfolk, they were devining around my farther inlaws the other day.
I will ask and find out what happened.
There's an old thread about water board dowsers here.
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Old 15th June 2011, 06:24 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes with the physical world you can find out. I suppose one can draw the analogy with this and the world of the mind, it has no physical molecules to test, there are concepts instead.
What's neuroscience then? All mental events are physical events in the brain. The natural order of cause and effect is not interrupted in the mind, this is the dangerous delusion.
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I use a process of contemplating concepts of understanding and experience. In which I repeatedly question and examine concepts in the light of a general and current knowledge and understanding. Alongside a contemplation of how concepts fit together, mirror others through analogy, fit a conceptual architecture and could contradict etc. I suppose an intellectual grooming or preening.
One adopts an intellectual posture within this mind world and relates it to ones self and to reality as experienced.
The brain does this all on it's own, these descriptions always sound like an articulation of these process. When we learn something new the brain grows with new connections, but over time the area of growth is preened back so only the best and most worthwhile connections remain. Still just describing physical effects with an emotional bent.
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Yes keeping ones feet on the ground and living in the real world is important.
I found that this was only an issue initially. Once I had reached a point where I had time to reflect on the early days alongside the present and my contemplative record a stability and groundedness was normal. Furthermore the real physical world is ones unexplored country in a sense, your sample of truth. As such a closeness, empathy and communion with nature and day to day experience is my daily sustenance and pleasure.
It's important to stay grounded. Something you will hear in all kinds of mystical traditions. The thing I worry about is that with many it's obvious that this "staying grounded" is only so important because the woo and mysticism people are involved in is so hardcore, this is the only thing keeping them relatively sane.
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This is unfortunately a difficulty in mysticism there is no peer review as there are so few practitioners these days. One can participate in religious and spiritual groups, however mystics will often practice alone.
Reminds me of those bloody philosophers
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Well I'm not going to mention any names
But really though that is quite the straw man, that materialists or naturalists make claims about the unknown or what cannot be known, or rule out possibilities etc, it's an appeal to emotion that is most commonly used in anti-science polemic.
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Well the answer to this depends more on another question, is there a divine existence, or are we deluding ourselves. If there is the answer is yes, if not the answer is no.
I guess, but the point is that you can't say for sure if it's anything more than artful natural philosophy, and natural philosophy is the only thing that works.
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This is difficult to put across briefly. Again the issue of the existence or not of divinity is never far away and yet there are altruistic perspectives in which the answer to this question is irrelevant. I currently have a faith in its existence, however really it is an irrelevant question to me.
The life of the mystic is its own reward from moment to moment and along with the Buddha one relinquishes ones need for reward or destination. ie heaven is also irrelevant, while being present in every moment and act, as nature itself.
All you are really doing is manipulating the body's survival mechanisms of awareness of danger and stress. We get a reward when we are able to think that we are in no danger from predators, in good health, with good mate, or whatever those factors are. People invent ways of thinking and memes in order to help trick the mind into this state. I call shenanigans. You can coat it in mystical and existential language all you want, that's all you're doing. Not that there aren't interesting existential conversations to have and that realizations about the true nature of the universe aren't also important biological events, but if you want to claim some benefit from contemplating divine nature you have quite the null hypothesis to contend with there.
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One realises that the goal is the alignment or orientation within oneself
Incoherent, what does this mean? With what, the divine nature?
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alongside a peacefull presence
What is this peaceful presence? Imaginary deity?
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an wholesome life externally.
What does this men?
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At the end of the day you discover that you are the same as everyone else, the only difference is you have tweaked a few thoughts and feelings, you are no different. So you then continue on your merry way, tweaking a few feathers here and there and enjoy life.
But that's more or less just looking at the facts of life!
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I realise I haven't articulated divinity, try again later
We're to God like ants are to people that's why we can't figure him out! Haven't you heard that one yet? Yes I'm one of the sad, sad atheists that thinks the debate is already over

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Old 15th June 2011, 06:26 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Here in the UK the water board uses dowsers regularly when seeking watercourses and leaks.
Regularly? I find that hard to believe.

If they do hire dowsers, that is evidence either of their gullibility or their desire to throw work to friends and relatives who claim to be dowsers. It is not evidence that dowsing works.
ETA:
There is more more possibility that was outlined in the other thread
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I do recall one story from a well driller where he keeps dowsing rods in the truck in case he encounters any homeowners who insist the well location must be dowsed to be certain. He'd pull out the rods and lo! The rods crossed where he thought it would be best to drill. It was easier than getting into a long argument with the owner.
..................................


One million dollars awaits the dowser who can demonstrate his powers under controlled conditions.
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Old 15th June 2011, 07:45 AM   #592
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I just called the local water board and they had a good laugh when I asked them if they used dowsers. If you do find a dowser who can do it punshhh,get him to take the MDC and go halves on the money.
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Old 15th June 2011, 08:20 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
What's neuroscience then? All mental events are physical events in the brain. The natural order of cause and effect is not interrupted in the mind, this is the dangerous delusion. The brain does this all on it's own, these descriptions always sound like an articulation of these process. When we learn something new the brain grows with new connections, but over time the area of growth is preened back so only the best and most worthwhile connections remain. Still just describing physical effects with an emotional bent.
Yes fine, there is an interplay between the brain and the mind, a kind of symbiosis. You have left the intellect's use of the contents of the mind out there.
Do you consider that a concept has a place in neuroscience?, could Dali painting have been in principle predicted?

Are you negating free will?
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It's important to stay grounded. Something you will hear in all kinds of mystical traditions. The thing I worry about is that with many it's obvious that this "staying grounded" is only so important because the woo and mysticism people are involved in is so hardcore, this is the only thing keeping them relatively sane.
Such advice is only necessary for the novice or someone who is not an independent person. This hardcore woo and mysticism is really a form of religious or spiritual fanaticism, they are still under the mistaken belief or psychology in which one is trying to achieve something, go somewhere else, or become closer to God.

Quote:
But really though that is quite the straw man, that materialists or naturalists make claims about the unknown or what cannot be known, or rule out possibilities etc, it's an appeal to emotion that is most commonly used in anti-science polemic.
Thats not what I am referring to, if you were to write down what I conclude about what we don't know and do the same for a materialist and compare them. I assure you it would be quite different, just read my analogy of the ant at the end of the message for a hint.
Quote:
I guess, but the point is that you can't say for sure if it's anything more than artful natural philosophy, and natural philosophy is the only thing that works. All you are really doing is manipulating the body's survival mechanisms of awareness of danger and stress. We get a reward when we are able to think that we are in no danger from predators, in good health, with good mate, or whatever those factors are. People invent ways of thinking and memes in order to help trick the mind into this state. I call shenanigans. You can coat it in mystical and existential language all you want, that's all you're doing. Not that there aren't interesting existential conversations to have and that realizations about the true nature of the universe aren't also important biological events, but if you want to claim some benefit from contemplating divine nature you have quite the null hypothesis to contend with there.
Again you are describing the biological aspect of a person, I am doing what you describe here from the view point of the biology of my body. The intellectual rational thought process and what that produces is not present here, even though it is emergent from it.

Quote:
Incoherent, what does this mean?
"Alignment or orientation within oneself", the basic principle is the syncronisation of the mind, the emotions and the body, that they are integrated rather than discordant and in agreement there needs are the same. This would then be orientated such that your hopes desires and need are syncronised with you natural role and position in nature. This is essentially a Yoga practice.
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With what, the divine nature?
Yes the soul
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What is this peaceful presence? Imaginary deity?
Yourself, you are the peaceful presence

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What does this mean?
The outside world as opposed to your inner world.

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But that's more or less just looking at the facts of life! We're to God like ants are to people that's why we can't figure him out! Haven't you heard that one yet? Yes I'm one of the sad, sad atheists that thinks the debate is already over
Yes your right just looking at the facts of life, living life as anyone else.
However with an openness and receptiveness to whatever unknown aspects of existence are involved during any moment( alignment again)
This is what I wrote a couple of weeks ago in !kagens "human" thread;

"Humanity is a small ants nest occupying a square meter of dust in a remote corner of a desert. A leaf blows in from somewhere, an ant climbs to the top of the leaf, surveys its surroundings and shouts out "we understand the secrets and workings of existence.""

Your wrong about the debate being over

P.s. I am going hill walking for a few days tomorrow so won't reply till next week.

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Old 15th June 2011, 08:31 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by Sawbones79 View Post
Last answer from me, since as I said, this is going nowhere: I and many with me have read several of those books collecting anecdotes that you use as evidence

Pfft. I doubt that all the books you have read about it add up to this one alone. Does it look like it is a mere collection of anecdotes? If that's what you believe then challenge your belief and read it yourself.

Quote:
not to mention that most people at one time or another experience happenings that at first glance seem to point o the working of powers unknown to science.

In my experience, JREFers are either in denial of their experiences and hiding from them, or they exaggerate to score ideological and debate points. When I dig deeper I am disappointed in their weak-ass noob experiences of "happenings".

Quote:
Read, seen, considered, rejected. Your "PSI" is now on the level of the invisible unicorn in my backyard, as no matter how strong the evidence against it you will invent a factor like "livestock effect" and "retro-causality" to keep believing in something that's obviously important to you.
I repeat: If it's vital to you to prove the existence of unknown powers, than arrange an experience or study to do so! I'd love to be proven wrong and start developing my mental powers rightaway, I just can't see that happening any time soon.

Its not vital to me to prove the existence of unknown powers to you. It WAS vital to me that I prove it to myself, which I have successfully done. You guys are on your own. I would help you if I thought you had what it takes. Maybe there is a JREFer somewhere who does. I'll hang out and keep my eyes open for him or her and occasionally participate in a discussion if that's all right with you.
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"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

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Old 15th June 2011, 08:51 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes fine, there is an interplay between the brain and the mind, a kind of symbiosis.
Nope, the brain is the mind, no rational argument or evidence to the contrary. Hyperbole and semantics aren't those.
Quote:
You have left the intellect's use of the contents of the mind out there.
You mean the function of the brain?
Quote:
Do you consider that a concept has a place in neuroscience?, could Dali painting have been in principle predicted?
What does being able to predict the action of a material mechanism have to do with it being materialistic? We can't predict the weather does that make it supernatural?
Quote:
Are you negating free will?
Not entirely I'm saying that it can't be the only thing in the world beyond cause.
Quote:
Such advice is only necessary for the novice or someone who is not an independent person. This hardcore woo and mysticism is really a form of religious or spiritual fanaticism, they are still under the mistaken belief or psychology in which one is trying to achieve something, go somewhere else, or become closer to God.
All religions want to be known as the sane or sophisticated version of their particular breed of cult, it's really all delusion so why differentiate? It's a matter of degree.
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Thats not what I am referring to, if you were to write down what I conclude about what we don't know and do the same for a materialist and compare them. I assure you it would be quite different, just read my analogy of the ant at the end of the message for a hint.
That's not an argument against materialists, that's a complaint that your beliefs are not taken seriously about them, and therefore an even greater fallacy. Just make a claim and provide evidence, don't complain about what the mean old skeptics are too closed-minded or stuck up to see... old hat.
Quote:
Again you are describing the biological aspect of a person, I am doing what you describe here from the view point of the biology of my body. The intellectual rational thought process and what that produces is not present here, even though it is emergent from it.
So you think that the supernatural aspects arise out of the natural? A which point do they lose their naturalness? At which point does your consciousness "transcend"? Do you see how incoherent dualism is?
Quote:
"Alignment or orientation within oneself", the basic principle is the syncronisation of the mind, the emotions and the body, that they are integrated rather than discordant and in agreement there needs are the same. This would then be orientated such that your hopes desires and need are syncronised with you natural role and position in nature. This is essentially a Yoga practice.
The selfish competition that leads to true altruism is a metaphor for what happens internally as well. Just as your consciousness is a result of what comes out on top, your actions and decisions are a result of what considerations win out. Therefore this supposed "alignment" is really just a greater harmony of things that work for natural reasons. This "alignment" business is an illusion, you're not aligning with anything greater, you're just engineering less conflict in a natural system.

Quote:
Yes the soul

Yourself, you are the peaceful presence


The outside world as opposed to your inner world.



Yes your right just looking at the facts of life, living life as anyone else.
However with an openness and receptiveness to whatever unknown aspects of existence are involved during any moment( alignment again)
This is what I wrote a couple of weeks ago in !kagens "human" thread;

"Humanity is a small ants nest occupying a square meter of dust in a remote corner of a desert. A leaf blows in from somewhere, an ant climbs to the top of the leaf, surveys its surroundings and shouts out "we understand the secrets and workings of existence.""
The greatest argument from ignorance ever conceived

Quote:
Your wrong about the debate being over
Let's restart the whole thing then. Can we form a coherent description of divinity or deity?

Quote:
P.s. I am going hill walking for a few days tomorrow so won't reply till next week.
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Old 15th June 2011, 09:10 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes fine, there is an interplay between the brain and the mind, a kind of symbiosis. You have left the intellect's use of the contents of the mind out there.
Do you consider that a concept has a place in neuroscience?, could Dali painting have been in principle predicted?

Are you negating free will?


Such advice is only necessary for the novice or someone who is not an independent person. This hardcore woo and mysticism is really a form of religious or spiritual fanaticism, they are still under the mistaken belief or psychology in which one is trying to achieve something, go somewhere else, or become closer to God.



Thats not what I am referring to, if you were to write down what I conclude about what we don't know and do the same for a materialist and compare them. I assure you it would be quite different, just read my analogy of the ant at the end of the message for a hint.

Again you are describing the biological aspect of a person, I am doing what you describe here from the view point of the biology of my body. The intellectual rational thought process and what that produces is not present here, even though it is emergent from it.


"Alignment or orientation within oneself", the basic principle is the syncronisation of the mind, the emotions and the body, that they are integrated rather than discordant and in agreement there needs are the same. This would then be orientated such that your hopes desires and need are syncronised with you natural role and position in nature. This is essentially a Yoga practice.

Yes the soul

Yourself, you are the peaceful presence


The outside world as opposed to your inner world.



Yes your right just looking at the facts of life, living life as anyone else.
However with an openness and receptiveness to whatever unknown aspects of existence are involved during any moment( alignment again)
This is what I wrote a couple of weeks ago in !kagens "human" thread;

"Humanity is a small ants nest occupying a square meter of dust in a remote corner of a desert. A leaf blows in from somewhere, an ant climbs to the top of the leaf, surveys its surroundings and shouts out "we understand the secrets and workings of existence.""

Your wrong about the debate being over

P.s. I am going hill walking for a few days tomorrow so won't reply till next week.
Gibberish. I hope that the fresh air clears your head.
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Old 15th June 2011, 09:40 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
In my experience, JREFers are either in denial of their experiences and hiding from them, or they exaggerate to score ideological and debate points. When I dig deeper I am disappointed in their weak-ass noob experiences of "happenings".
Well, this thread shaped up better than I expected. At least I got a new sig out of it.


The only question remaining for me is whether to change the title under my avatar to "weak-ass noob," "retrocausalitist," or simply "goat." Any suggestions?
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Old 15th June 2011, 09:47 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Pfft. I doubt that all the books you have read about it don't add up to this one alone. Does it look like it is a mere collection of anecdotes? If that's what you believe then challenge your belief and read it yourself.
I love how you wave around books with all the ferocity of "It's in the bible!"
Quote:
In my experience, JREFers are either in denial of their experiences and hiding from them, or they exaggerate to score ideological and debate points. When I dig deeper I am disappointed in their weak-ass noob experiences of "happenings".
All you have in your toolkit is arguments from emotion, just like every other fanatic.
Quote:
Its not vital to me to prove the existence of unknown powers to you. It WAS vital to me that I prove it to myself, which I have successfully done. You guys are on your own. I would help you if I thought you had what it takes. Maybe there is a JREFer somewhere who does. I'll hang out and keep my eyes open for him or her and occasionally participate in a discussion if that's all right with you.
Creating intense delusions only you can understand is not something to be proud of.
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Old 15th June 2011, 10:27 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
So you have determined for yourself that something is real, but it is only demonstrable to you, cannot be confirmed by, for or to anyone else, and has no visible consequences that can be pointed to as evidence of efficacy?

Once someone with an opposing worldview tries to replicate my methods, they won't work. The worldview of the mystic is part of the mental alchemy. It takes a very special kind of skeptic to entertain notions without disbelief and try things without a secret desire for a negative result. The pathological skepticism of the average JREFer would taint their own efforts. Oh sure skeptics all say they are special but when I test them they fail.

Quote:
Can you explain in what practical way this phenomenon can be differentiated from a dream or a delusion?

The way is by inducing verifiable components in a sequence of psychic experiences so that you can verify for yourself.
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"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

Last edited by Limbo; 15th June 2011 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 15th June 2011, 10:37 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Once someone with an opposing worldview tries to replicate my methods, they won't work. The worldview of the mystic is part of the mental alchemy. It takes a very special kind of skeptic to entertain notions without disbelief and try things without a secret desire for a negative result. The pathological skepticism of the average JREFer would taint their own efforts. Oh sure skeptics all say they are special but when I test them they fail.




The way is by inducing verifiable components in a sequence of psychic experiences so that you can verify for yourself.
Oh we're not saying that we're special. We're saying that you aren't.
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