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Tags bible , buddhism , christianity , god , hinduism , islam , jesus

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Old 15th June 2011, 10:52 AM   #601
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Oh sure skeptics all say they are special but when I test them they fail.
As far as I can tell, you've tested nothing but patience around here.
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Old 15th June 2011, 10:55 AM   #602
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Limbo,

Do some people believe themselves to have super-natural powers, but are mistaken in that belief?

Using your methodology, how could that be determined?
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Old 15th June 2011, 11:10 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by RossFW View Post
Limbo,

Do some people believe themselves to have super-natural powers, but are mistaken in that belief?

Some people use the word super-natural but I avoid it because I believe it is an obsolete, useless word.
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Old 15th June 2011, 11:13 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
The worldview of the mystic is part of the mental alchemy.
So THAT's why it fails to accurately model reality!
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Old 15th June 2011, 11:30 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Some people use the word super-natural but I avoid it because I believe it is an obsolete, useless word.
You are amazing Limbo. Not only are you above all of us uneducated JREFers because you read books that agreed with your beliefs, but you're way beyond the English language by declaring a commonly used word obsolete. You truly do deserve to feel like you're better than all of us. I would recommend you write a book, but no one at JREF would read it

Last edited by Joey McGee; 15th June 2011 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 15th June 2011, 11:40 AM   #606
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Limbo,

Do some people believe themselves to have super-natural powers whatever you call what you claim you can do, but are mistaken in that belief?

Using your methodology, how could that be determined?
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:01 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by RossFW View Post
Limbo,

Do some people believe themselves to have super-natural powers whatever you call what you claim you can do, but are mistaken in that belief?

What I claim I can do? No.

Quote:
Using your methodology, how could that be determined?

Well by using my mystical techniques of course.
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"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:04 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
What I claim I can do? No.




Well by using my mystical techniques of course.
So, there is neither the capability nor necesity to differentiate what your are claiming from total BS?

When something can't be differentiated from, that usually means it is equivelent to....
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:19 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by RossFW View Post
So, there is neither the capability nor necesity to differentiate what your are claiming from total BS?

When something can't be differentiated from, that usually means it is equivelent to....

Sure it can. Like I said I proved it to myself by witnessing many instances of veridical psi over the past couple of years. You can do it too but science and Randi can't help you. You have to become a mystic and you have to devote a lot of time and effort and mental alchemy to it and most people just aren't up to it. Especially people like the average JREFer.
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:27 PM   #610
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Quote:
mental alchemy
OK, you've just GOT to give that term some kind of realistic meaning for me!!
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:29 PM   #611
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Of course the plus side of playing on Randi's team is that we believe that Western medicine works so it does work for us and we get healed.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:30 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Sure it can. Like I said I proved it to myself by witnessing many instances of veridical psi hallucinating patterns that aren't there over the past couple of years. You can do it too but science and Randi can't help you. you demand actual evidence instead of a personal belief. You have to become a mystic stop questioning things and you have to devote a lot of time and effort and mental alchemy to it allow your brain to turn to mush and most people just aren't up to it know cult thinking when they see it. Especially people like the average JREFer.

Last edited by Joey McGee; 15th June 2011 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:37 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Sure it can. Like I said I proved it to myself by witnessing many instances of veridical psi over the past couple of years. You can do it too but science and Randi can't help you. You have to become a mystic and you have to devote a lot of time and effort and mental alchemy to it and most people just aren't up to it. Especially people like the average JREFer.
What kind of practical things can you do with these mystical techniques? Apart from fooling yourself,we will take that as read. Mental alchemy,another hilarious phrase from you.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:39 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by RossFW View Post
OK, you've just GOT to give that term some kind of realistic meaning for me!!
'Mental' is British slang for crazy.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:40 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Sure it can. Like I said I proved it to myself by witnessing many instances of veridical psi over the past couple of years. You can do it too but science and Randi can't help you. You have to become a mystic and you have to devote a lot of time and effort and mental alchemy to it and most people just aren't up to it. Especially people like the average JREFer.
We're just too intelligent.
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Old 15th June 2011, 12:55 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by RossFW View Post
OK, you've just GOT to give that term some kind of realistic meaning for me!!

OK I'll try. You have to be in a psi-conducive state of mind. You have to have a psi-conducive attitude, environment, and worldview. These are the ingredients of the mental alchemy. There are a lot of variables that can inhibit psi and they have to be minimized. The cynical disbelief of the JREF skeptic being a prime example.
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

Last edited by Limbo; 15th June 2011 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:16 PM   #617
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Psi-conducive state of mind, worldview, attitude = Stoned

Psi-conducive environment = Dark room with blacklight posters and no sharp objects. Preferably with pizza on the way.

What a load of crap, but it's nice that it makes you feel superior to everyone.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:21 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
OK I'll try. You have to be in a psi-conducive state of mind. You have to have a psi-conducive attitude, environment, and worldview. These are the ingredients of the mental alchemy. There are a lot of variables that can inhibit psi and they have to be minimized. The cynical disbelief of the JREF skeptic being a prime example.
I've also heard that you have to be on acid in order to see that The Dark Side of the Moon was synced to The Wizard Oz
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:25 PM   #619
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Joey your last few posts have really sucked so I think I'll go ahead and put you on ignore now. Bye.
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"Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo.

"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:35 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Joey your last few posts have really sucked so I think I'll go ahead and put you on ignore now. Bye.
Oh hey I thought you did that pages ago when you didn't reply to my rebuttal which was markedly more serious than my recent attempts at skewering and mocking your bizarre appeals to emotion.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:38 PM   #621
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QFT:
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Oh we're not saying that we're special. We're saying that you aren't.
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post

The only question remaining for me is whether to change the title under my avatar to "weak-ass noob," "retrocausalitist," or simply "goat." Any suggestions?
I think weak-ass noob has a nice ring to it. Maybe you could play with the capitalization and spelling a little, like N00B or n00b.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:42 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
OK I'll try. You have to be in a psi-conducive state of mind. You have to have a psi-conducive attitude, environment, and worldview. These are the ingredients of the mental alchemy. There are a lot of variables that can inhibit psi and they have to be minimized.
Nonsense. Entertaining nonsense. I'm still waiting for some practical examples of what you can do with your super powers.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:45 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
What a load of crap, but it's nice that it makes you feel superior to everyone.
That is the funniest thing about him,his superior attitude. He believes in a load of old pony but he thinks that he is smarter than the rest of us put together. I am really tickled by his new age woo vocabulary. Priceless.
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Old 15th June 2011, 01:55 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
The one in Norfolk, they were devining around my farther inlaws the other day.
I will ask and find out what happened.
Hmmm. I popped off an email to someone at Norfolk County Council with who I worked when I was there a few years ago; after some enquiries she's replied and states, quite categorically, that council staff do not make use of dowsing nor do they hire dowsers.
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Old 15th June 2011, 02:15 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Hmmm. I popped off an email to someone at Norfolk County Council with who I worked when I was there a few years ago; after some enquiries she's replied and states, quite categorically, that council staff do not make use of dowsing nor do they hire dowsers.
Our local water board does not use them either. Still,we are used to punshhh making things up.
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Old 15th June 2011, 06:23 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Once someone with an opposing worldview tries to replicate my methods, they won't work. The worldview of the mystic is part of the mental alchemy. It takes a very special kind of skeptic to entertain notions without disbelief and try things without a secret desire for a negative result. The pathological skepticism of the average JREFer would taint their own efforts. Oh sure skeptics all say they are special but when I test them they fail.




The way is by inducing verifiable components in a sequence of psychic experiences so that you can verify for yourself.
Unfortunately, what you specify here is not distinguishable by anyone but yourself from delusion, and since people who are delusional cannot be depended on to make the distinction themselves, we're back where we started. Even if everything you say is true, and even if your experiences are genuine, real and deep, you have no argument. I wonder why you bother at all.
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Old 15th June 2011, 08:06 PM   #627
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Quote:
OK I'll try. You have to be in a psi-conducive state of mind. You have to have a psi-conducive attitude, environment, and worldview. These are the ingredients of the mental alchemy. There are a lot of variables that can inhibit psi and they have to be minimized. The cynical disbelief of the JREF skeptic being a prime example.
Do you agree that people might THINK they have done all of that and, particularly as a pre-condition is believing it to be true BEFORE seeing evidence, convince themselves they have achieved positive results when they haven't?

Any idea of the actual mechanism by which it works?
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Old 15th June 2011, 08:25 PM   #628
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What I don't understand is why the PSI folks don't just believe that their PSI powers are 10,000 times stronger than skeptic powers and overwhelm us. After all it is not about an independent reality. Why don't they create a reality where PSI power is, you know, actually powerful?
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Old 15th June 2011, 08:29 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
What I don't understand is why the PSI folks don't just [i]believe[/] that their PSI powers are 10,000 times stronger than skeptic powers and overwhelm us. After all it is not about an independent reality. Why don't they create a reality where PSI power is, you know, actually powerful?

Now, that's just crazy talk!
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Old 15th June 2011, 08:42 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
OK I'll try. You have to be in a psi-conducive state of mind. You have to have a psi-conducive attitude, environment, and worldview. These are the ingredients of the mental alchemy. There are a lot of variables that can inhibit psi and they have to be minimized. The cynical disbelief of the JREF skeptic being a prime example.
What you're describing is easily testable then. We minimize the variables and design an experiment. Pretty simple really.
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Old 15th June 2011, 08:48 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Its not the only argument I've put forth. I've argued that the individual has the ability and maybe even the duty to go where science can't and see for himself that psi is real. This is similar to the argument of the OP. I've argued that skeptics are too damn lazy in that they don't read ****. That they are woefully ignorant of the body of parapsychological evidence and what it means and what the philosophical implications are for religion and science.

I've also argued that the sheep-goat effect and the parapsychological experimenter effect are real and that they limit the ability of science to deal with psi. There is evidence out there that these effects are real and therefore they must be taken onto account.

I've also argued that psi is a component of classical mysticism. The Catholic charisms, the Buddhist iddhi and the Hindu siddhi are all different mystical models of the same psychic abilities. Mystical exercises alter the consciousness of the mystic and strengthen psychic ability.

"It is true that certain psychic faculties capable of a worldly application, such as the Dibba-cakkhu (clairvoyance), Dibba-sota (clairaudience), Mano-Maya-Kaya (projection of the ‘astral body’) and other paranormal powers are developed in the course of Buddhist meditation. . . .The Buddha and the Arhats possessed such powers and when need arose they exercised them for the sake of the ignorant who demanded ‘signs and wonders.’ But in general the Buddha deplored their use, preferring to spread the Dhamma by the ‘miracle of teaching’ and the self-propagating power of truth. To those not yet fully emancipated from worldly delusion they can become attachment-forming faculties, and as such have to be guarded against and overcome in the struggle for Nibbanna. In the Buddhist view, one who embarks on concentration exercises to obtain supernormal powers (Iddhi) is doing so with the wrong intention and at great danger to himself. If all power corrupts, supernormal power can corrupt superlatively." (Mahathera, 1975, p.iv)

"I am well aware, however, of the danger of tying spiritual belief to any scientific system. . . . This is not to say that I consider things like the oracle and the ability of monks to survive nights spent out in freezing condition to be evidence of magical powers. Yet I cannot agree with our Chinese Brothers and sisters, who hold that Tibetan acceptance of these phenomena is evidence of our backwardness and barbarity. Even from the most rigorous scientific viewpoint, this is not an objective attitude. At the same time, even if a principle is accepted, it does not mean that everything connected with it is valid. . . . . Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding. This, of course, is where science can help. After all, we consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . . . . Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism." (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)
Unless there's a skeptic around.
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Old 15th June 2011, 08:50 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
"There are three possible positions one may take concerning the evidence for ESP. First, the position of orthodox scientists, who believe that ESP does not exist. Second, the position of true believers, who believe that ESP is real and can be proved to exist by scientific methods. Third, my own position, that ESP is real, as the anecdotal evidence suggests, but cannot be tested with the clumsy tools of science. These positions also imply different views concerning the proper scope of science. If one believes, as many of my scientific colleagues believe, that the scope of science is unlimited, then science can ultimately explain everything in the universe, and ESP must either be nonexistent or scientifically explainable.

If one believes, as I do, that ESP is real but is scientifically untestable, one must believe that the scope of science is limited. I put forward, as a working hypothesis, that ESP is real but belongs to a mental universe that is too fluid and evanescent to fit within the rigid protocols of controlled scientific testing. I do not claim that this hypothesis is true. I claim only that it is consistent with the evidence and worthy of consideration." -Freeman Dyson


How would he know if something is consistent unless he could measure it?

If he can measure it, then it's measurable (duh). Therefore, it falls under scrutiny that we call 'science.'

When mystics say, "do x,y,z and you will be able to psionically contact your loved ones" that's measurable and therefore falls under scrutiny that we call 'science.'




By the way, just curious, but I just suddenly wondered why these gurus who no longer need to eat don't go and teach their techniques to people in Africa who have tens of thousands of children starving to death every year.

It seems that only rich, fat Americans and Europeans are interested in this nonsense. And if obtaining-sustenance-from-the-sun skills are gained only after a lifetime of dedication, then what's the bloody use?
Farmers actually do this.
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Old 15th June 2011, 09:00 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Here in the UK the water board uses dowsers regularly when seeking watercourses and leaks.
Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
The one in Norfolk, they were devining around my farther inlaws the other day.
I will ask and find out what happened.
Your grandiose claim that "Here in the UK the water board uses dowsers regularly when seeking watercourses and leaks" devolves into "it happened around my inlaws"?
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Old 15th June 2011, 09:06 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
If punshhh says it then it must be true. No evidence required in the imaginary mystic world.
Out in that formless world beyond the event horizon.
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Old 15th June 2011, 09:33 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Pfft. I doubt that all the books you have read about it add up to this one alone. Does it look like it is a mere collection of anecdotes? If that's what you believe then challenge your belief and read it yourself.




In my experience, JREFers are either in denial of their experiences and hiding from them, or they exaggerate to score ideological and debate points. When I dig deeper I am disappointed in their weak-ass noob experiences of "happenings".




Its not vital to me to prove the existence of unknown powers to you. It WAS vital to me that I prove it to myself, which I have successfully done. You guys are on your own. I would help you if I thought you had what it takes. Maybe there is a JREFer somewhere who does. I'll hang out and keep my eyes open for him or her and occasionally participate in a discussion if that's all right with you.

Fooled yourself have you?
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Old 15th June 2011, 10:02 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Fooled yourself have you?

Well, he hasn't fooled us...
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Old 16th June 2011, 12:37 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Pfft. I doubt that all the books you have read about it add up to this one alone. Does it look like it is a mere collection of anecdotes? If that's what you believe then challenge your belief and read it yourself.

In my experience, JREFers are either in denial of their experiences and hiding from them, or they exaggerate to score ideological and debate points. When I dig deeper I am disappointed in their weak-ass noob experiences of "happenings".

Its not vital to me to prove the existence of unknown powers to you. It WAS vital to me that I prove it to myself, which I have successfully done. You guys are on your own. I would help you if I thought you had what it takes. Maybe there is a JREFer somewhere who does. I'll hang out and keep my eyes open for him or her and occasionally participate in a discussion if that's all right with you.

Aaaand out comes a post full of superior attitude, a book that happens to agree with you and not a single factual argument.
What DOES it take? 'Cause so far, all you're promoting is self-delusion, narcisstic fantasies and a smug refusal to provide any evidence of those mighty mind-powers you've gained by levelling up in the "Mysticism" skill-tree.
Also, why would you ask my approval on your participation in the discussion? Sure, you managed to turn my genuine interest into annoyance in just half-a-dozen rude replies, but that doesn't mean I'm not amused by hearing you shout out your message of "PSI is real! I can do stuff! Now stop asking!"
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Old 16th June 2011, 04:32 AM   #638
dafydd
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Unless there's a skeptic around.
So one skeptic can throw a spanner in the works of many psionauts? We must have superior,powerful brains.
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Old 16th June 2011, 04:34 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
Joey your last few posts have really sucked so I think I'll go ahead and put you on ignore now. Bye.
You ignore reality so why the hell not?
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Old 16th June 2011, 03:38 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Out in that formless world beyond the event horizon.
It was beyond the event horizon of the formless. How the formless could be massive enough to have an event horizon is a mystery. Perhaps punshhh will enlighten us when he gets back from his hiking holiday.
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