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Tags bible , buddhism , christianity , god , hinduism , islam , jesus

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Old 18th June 2011, 12:11 PM   #641
Craig4
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Look if this stuff worked it would have by now. Nothing succeeds like success.
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Old 21st June 2011, 01:18 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Nope, the brain is the mind, no rational argument or evidence to the contrary. Hyperbole and semantics aren't those.
So you have reduced the mind to the brain, fine I agree. does this mean that the Dali painting is computation or inspiration?
What is intuition?

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You mean the function of the brain?
Do you make a distinction between the automatic function of the brain during cycling for example and the thoughts which pass through your head while watching the apes banging the monolith with sticks in the film 2001 A Space Odyssey?
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What does being able to predict the action of a material mechanism have to do with it being materialistic? We can't predict the weather does that make it supernatural?
Fine, so science does not yet understand the "mind" chemically, sufficient to test for Dali paintings.

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Not entirely I'm saying that it can't be the only thing in the world beyond cause.
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, which side of the fence do you fall on determinism?
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All religions want to be known as the sane or sophisticated version of their particular breed of cult, it's really all delusion so why differentiate?
I agree most of it is delusion, delusion is not an uncommon condition in the human mind/brain.

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It's a matter of degree. That's not an argument against materialists, that's a complaint that your beliefs are not taken seriously about them, and therefore an even greater fallacy. Just make a claim and provide evidence, don't complain about what the mean old skeptics are too closed-minded or stuck up to see... old hat.
I am merely pointing out the difference between me and a materialist. Apart from our treatment of the unknown there is no difference between myself and a materialist.
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So you think that the supernatural aspects arise out of the natural? A which point do they lose their naturalness? At which point does your consciousness "transcend"? Do you see how incoherent dualism is?
I see no supernatural aspects, it is all natural.I am pointing out a thing known as an intellectual concept. Intellectual folk spend their lives engaged in intellectual endeavors. The housing, feeding and health of their physical bodies is often of secondary importance.
Are they living in a delusion?
Can this be tested for in a chemistry lab?

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The selfish competition that leads to true altruism is a metaphor for what happens internally as well. Just as your consciousness is a result of what comes out on top, your actions and decisions are a result of what considerations win out. Therefore this supposed "alignment" is really just a greater harmony of things that work for natural reasons. This "alignment" business is an illusion, you're not aligning with anything greater, you're just engineering less conflict in a natural system.
Yes I agree, desires have an evolutionary purpose. Through the intellect one can endeavor to calm the unnecessary ones.

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The greatest argument from ignorance ever conceived
Its not an argument, its a perspective.

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Let's restart the whole thing then. Can we form a coherent description of divinity or deity?
This may be another thread, I suspect my world born out of divinity and your world devoid of such a thing would turn out to be identical, with a nuance of difference, which could not be tested for.

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The weather was kind on our long hike
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Old 21st June 2011, 01:58 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
So you have reduced the mind to the brain, fine I agree. does this mean that the Dali painting is computation or inspiration?
The fact that the mind is the brain doesn't mean we can't be inspired by our experiences and our imaginations.
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What is intuition?
Advanced pattern recognition and dot connecting (which is why most people's intuitions are often horribly wrong except for in naturalistic situations such as reading facial cues or guessing intentions, etc)
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Do you make a distinction between the automatic function of the brain during cycling for example and the thoughts which pass through your head while watching the apes banging the monolith with sticks in the film 2001 A Space Odyssey?
The brain is capable of different modes of thought and altered states, this evolved naturally, like modules, the modular mind.
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Fine, so science does not yet understandl the "mind" chemically, sufficient to test for Dali paintings.
How does one do this? What is the point? Is this like "You can't test love!" (an incoherent appeal to emotion) Science can explain "love", you could test to see if two people "love" each other, but what else could they mean, you can't test the idea of inspiration? We're human beings evolving on a planet, inspiration is necessary to get ourselves motivated and happy to enjoy working at things.
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I'm not quite sure what you mean here, which side of the fence do you fall on determinism?
I think it's a false dichotomy. If your will was truly free it would have to be beyond cause and effect, which it isn't as it's a biological function, so you can have free will in a sense, in the normal sense of it, to feel like you are free, and perhaps truly be an independent force of nature, but to imagine that your will isn't influenced by causes in your life often beyond your understanding or control is madness.

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I agree most of it is delusion, delusion is not an uncommon condition in the human mind/brain.
It may even come in handy thus it's prevalence.
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I am merely pointing out the difference between me and a materialist. Apart from our treatment of the unknown there is no difference between myself and a materialist.
Which is exactly where you're wrong, because I take no position on the unknown. I don't say "The entire universe is made of stuff and there absolutely is nothing paranormal about it" I say "the universe appears to be stuff that just happens as far as I can tell by looking and studying"
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I see no supernatural aspects, it is all natural.I am pointing out a thing known as an intellectual concept. Intellectual folk spend their lives engaged in intellectual endeavors. The housing, feeding and health of their physical bodies is often of secondary importance.
Are they living in a delusion?
They are thinking things with their brains, it's truly amazing, but it's not transcending anything, it just is amazing. There's no disconnect between taking care of yourself and being intellectual, we evolved the capacity for intellectual thought as part of our evolution to help us thrive after all. It's all seamlessly connected, there's no "this is physical life because I can touch it and this is transcendent life because I'm imagining a virtual world in my head"
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Can this be tested for in a chemistry lab?
Neuroscience studies intellectual thought, absolutely.
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Yes I agree, desires have an evolutionary purpose. Through the intellect one can endeavor to calm the unnecessary ones.
Which is probably why the intellect evolved. Good old prefrontal cortex holdin' it down.
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Its not an argument, its a perspective.
It's a possibility, that we can't see the greater, ultimate reality somehow, but you can't just say "oh we might be like an ant to a human" you have to show why, and keep looking! This kind of argument is always used as apologia not as wisdom...
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This may be another thread, I suspect my world born out of divinity and your world devoid of such a thing would turn out to be identical, with a nuance of difference, which could not be tested for.
Why do you expect this, what is this nuance?
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The weather was kind on our long hike
I'm glad! I should go for a long hike too, through the Boreal forests of Canada... I'd probably just stay out there, survive off the land, become a mystic

Last edited by Joey McGee; 21st June 2011 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 21st June 2011, 08:39 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
The fact that the mind is the brain doesn't mean we can't be inspired by our experiences and our imaginations.
Yes, I am happy with this interpretation as the foundation and material basis upon which the intellect dwells.
Again the conceptual world is negated, other than in principle. Perhaps there is a duality coming in through the back door here. Or are we still that ape with the stick banging it against the door of universal principles, unaware of what they might represent.

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Advanced pattern recognition and dot connecting (which is why most people's intuitions are often horribly wrong except for in naturalistic situations such as reading facial cues or guessing intentions, etc)
Yes, again I am happy with this interpretation of intuition. Divine inspiration (if there is such a thing)would naturally be clothed in this pattern recognition language.


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The brain is capable of different modes of thought and altered states, this evolved naturally, like modules, the modular mind.
Including the conceptual meaning of the monolith in the film, with the attendant questions it begs.
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How does one do this? What is the point? Is this like "You can't test love!" (an incoherent appeal to emotion) Science can explain "love", you could test to see if two people "love" each other, but what else could they mean, you can't test the idea of inspiration? We're human beings evolving on a planet, inspiration is necessary to get ourselves motivated and happy to enjoy working at things.
Again I am drawing your attention back to the intellect, material science can describe the physical object known as the brain and how it works resulting in a thought process. This would be almost identical for the brain of a chimpanzee.
Presumably this chimpanzee can craft its stick into a spear or a conductors wand.
Does science predict which of these nearly identical brains is going to perform which or what task. If we only had the evidence of what the chimp can do, we would be entirely unaware of the conductors wand or the monolith.
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I think it's a false dichotomy. If your will was truly free it would have to be beyond cause and effect, which it isn't as it's a biological function, so you can have free will in a sense, in the normal sense of it, to feel like you are free, and perhaps truly be an independent force of nature, but to imagine that your will isn't influenced by causes in your life often beyond your understanding or control is madness.
Interesting this concept of a free will outside of its biological origin. I agree freewill as experienced by humanity is within the parameters of our biological form.

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It may even come in handy thus it's prevalence.
Science tends to reduce a person to their biology, these delusions appear in the main to be a by product(with its uses from time to time).
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Which is exactly where you're wrong, because I take no position on the unknown. I don't say "The entire universe is made of stuff and there absolutely is nothing paranormal about it" I say "the universe appears to be stuff that just happens as far as I can tell by looking and studying"
You do not know how I treat the unknown, perhaps the word mystic is a clue,ie mystery.

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They are thinking things with their brains, it's truly amazing, but it's not transcending anything, it just is amazing. There's no disconnect between taking care of yourself and being intellectual, we evolved the capacity for intellectual thought as part of our evolution to help us thrive after all. It's all seamlessly connected, there's no "this is physical life because I can touch it and this is transcendent life because I'm imagining a virtual world in my head"
Yes I agree, however this truly amazing activity has some how managed to discern how the known universe works to a remarkable degree within a few hundred years. It is amazing, also this activity of the brain has discerned a void in which the known universe appears to have sprung from nowhere, or somewhere else. Alongside the awareness of a whole series of what appear to be universal principles or proportions(Pi for example).
Encircling everything we have discerned with our intellect is the unknown.
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Neuroscience studies intellectual thought, absolutely. Which is probably why the intellect evolved. Good old prefrontal cortex holdin' it down.
Yep we might be in a worse state otherwise
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It's a possibility, that we can't see the greater, ultimate reality somehow, but you can't just say "oh we might be like an ant to a human" you have to show why, and keep looking! This kind of argument is always used as apologia not as wisdom...
It is a recognition an acknowledgement of our position, or do you think the human intellect has achieved some plateau of true understanding?
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Why do you expect this, what is this nuance?
I am in agreement with the materialist philosophy, however I do not take anything for granted. If there is a divinity, it is naturally in alignment, infact it is the material world we know and admire.
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I'm glad! I should go for a long hike too, through the Boreal forests of Canada... I'd probably just stay out there, survive off the land, become a mystic
Sounds nice, I haven't been over the pond yet.

Last edited by punshhh; 21st June 2011 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 21st June 2011, 09:55 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes, I am happy with this interpretation as the foundation and material basis upon which the intellect dwells.
Again the conceptual world is negated, other than in principle. Perhaps there is a duality coming in through the back door here. Or are we still that ape with the stick banging it against the door of universal principles, unaware of what they might represent.



Yes, again I am happy with this interpretation of intuition. Divine inspiration (if there is such a thing)would naturally be clothed in this pattern recognition language.




Including the conceptual meaning of the monolith in the film, with the attendant questions it begs.

Again I am drawing your attention back to the intellect, material science can describe the physical object known as the brain and how it works resulting in a thought process. This would be almost identical for the brain of a chimpanzee.
Presumably this chimpanzee can craft its stick into a spear or a conductors wand.
Does science predict which of these nearly identical brains is going to perform which or what task. If we only had the evidence of what the chimp can do, we would be entirely unaware of the conductors wand or the monolith.


Interesting this concept of a free will outside of its biological origin. I agree freewill as experienced by humanity is within the parameters of our biological form.

Science tends to reduce a person to their biology, these delusions appear in the main to be a by product(with its uses from time to time).

You do not know how I treat the unknown, perhaps the word mystic is a clue,ie mystery.


Yes I agree, however this truly amazing activity has some how managed to discern how the known universe works to a remarkable degree within a few hundred years. It is amazing, also this activity of the brain has discerned a void in which the known universe appears to have sprung from nowhere, or somewhere else. Alongside the awareness of a whole series of what appear to be universal principles or proportions(Pi for example).
Encircling everything we have discerned with our intellect is the unknown.


Yep we might be in a worse state otherwise


It is a recognition an acknowledgement of our position, or do you think the human intellect has achieved some plateau of true understanding?


I am in agreement with the materialist philosophy, however I do not take anything for granted. If there is a divinity, it is naturally in alignment, infact it is the material world we know and admire.

Sounds nice, I haven't been over the pond yet.
Your hiking holiday didn't do you any good then. The door of universal principles. Encircling everything we have discerned with our intellect is the unknown. The parameters of our biological form. And this 'Including the conceptual meaning of the monolith in the film, with the attendant questions it begs.' It was a film,fiction,just like your ideas. Proof by Stanley Kubrick and Arthur C. Clark,that's a new one.

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Old 21st June 2011, 10:13 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Your hiking holiday didn't do you any good then. The door of universal principles. Encircling everything we have discerned with our intellect is the unknown. The parameters of our biological form. And this 'Including the conceptual meaning of the monolith in the film, with the attendant questions it begs.' It was a film,fiction,just like your ideas. Proof by Stanley Kubrick and Arthur C. Clark,that's a new one.
You wouldn't know what a monolith was if it hit you on the head
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Old 21st June 2011, 10:37 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
You wouldn't know what a monolith was if it hit you on the head
0/10 for wit. The monolith was fictional. What is this 'door of universal principles.' Is it somewhere near the event horizon of the formless,hidden behind all those elves and pixies in the foliage?
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Old 21st June 2011, 11:35 AM   #648
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes, I am happy with this interpretation as the foundation and material basis upon which the intellect dwells.
Again the conceptual world is negated, other than in principle.
But the conceptual world is a world within the real world. We're biased because we have evolved a brain that can conceive. Must like we saw ourselves at the center of the universe, we see conception and imagination or consciousness as precious.
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Perhaps there is a duality coming in through the back door here. Or are we still that ape with the stick banging it against the door of universal principles, unaware of what they might represent.
It seems that there are no emergent universal principles or laws that can identified other than things happen because they can. If you subscribe to m-theory it seems that the universal law of the universe is the lack of a universal law.
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Yes, again I am happy with this interpretation of intuition. Divine inspiration (if there is such a thing)would naturally be clothed in this pattern recognition language.
Ah! Well we all start to see how naturalistic all of the religions and cults really are, how human their Gods are and how anthropomorphic their conceptions are, and it becomes clear how people cannot escape naturalism any way they try, you're either living in it or coping with it. There is nothing more satisfying and revolutionary than releasing the bonds of supernatural thinking, (as long as you're coping well with the damage from the programming)
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Again I am drawing your attention back to the intellect, material science can describe the physical object known as the brain and how it works resulting in a thought process. This would be almost identical for the brain of a chimpanzee.
No, not "almost identical" radically different, especially in the PFC. There is nothing special about humans other than the fact we have evolved in a more advanced way through luck.
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Presumably this chimpanzee can craft its stick into a spear or a conductors wand.
Does science predict which of these nearly identical brains is going to perform which or what task. If we only had the evidence of what the chimp can do, we would be entirely unaware of the conductors wand or the monolith.
These things all came about from the human just evolving in a world that just happened. Things just happened to work out that way. In another universe you would be saying "See! Look there, that's the divine nature being expressed!" But you'd be looking at something just as mundane as what I see mysticism as in this universe.
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Science tends to reduce a person to their biology
A straw man, a mischaracterization. Science only sees biology in a person, there is nothing else to see. What I'm arguing is that all of this "transcendence" happens within the biological framework, not on top of it.
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these delusions appear in the main to be a by product(with its uses from time to time).
Right, as a by product, for example, the ability to conceive of agency. Our ability conceive on an agency led to delusions like imagining thunder were angry Gods etc.
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You do not know how I treat the unknown, perhaps the word mystic is a clue,ie mystery.
We've definitely evolved to enjoy mystery and adventure, I think that's just another psychic trap like agency.
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Yes I agree, however this truly amazing activity has some how managed to discern how the known universe works to a remarkable degree within a few hundred years. It is amazing,
It is amazing, but like everything, becomes more and more mediocre the more you look at it.
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We are also this activity of the brain has discerned a void in which the known universe appears to have sprung from nowhere, or somewhere else.
What's so significant about our brains being able to conceive of the idea of nothing and something? I've studied the Tao too it's not exactly hard to just make this stuff up in your head.
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So why is there any significant Alongside the awareness of a whole series of what appear to be universal principles or proportions(Pi for example).
I don't think those are universal principles, they just appear to be in our universe or trick the pattern seeking mind. For example the golden ratio isn't some magic force it just happens to be how things work out best in this universe. 5th chord and all that.
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Encircling everything we have discerned with our intellect is the unknown.
But that doesn't have any significance it's just stuff we don't know!
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Yep we might be in a worse state otherwise
Yes unfortuneately we know what people are like when that part is nonoperational
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It is a recognition an acknowledgement of our position, or do you think the human intellect has achieved some plateau of true understanding?
It's a useful metaphor for saying we don't know everything but why not just say we don't know everything? It's just a side issue that it's a favoured apologia tool.
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I am in agreement with the materialist philosophy, however I do not take anything for granted. If there is a divinity, it is naturally in alignment, infact it is the material world we know and admire.
Naturalist philosophy is everything, the most beautiful and the most brutal are understandable together. If we can find some kind of divine truth to align ourselves with or transcend naturalism, I'm all for it.
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Sounds nice, I haven't been over the pond yet.
Land out west in the wilds of the B.C forests and mountains
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Old 23rd June 2011, 12:20 AM   #649
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
But the conceptual world is a world within the real world. We're biased because we have evolved a brain that can conceive. Must like we saw ourselves at the center of the universe, we see conception and imagination or consciousness as precious.
Yes, my point was that biology only describes the mechanism, not the concepts being entertained by the mechanism. Rather like with a tv, the cathode ray tube can be described as an instrument. What you see on the screen is that other world within a world.
Materialism only describes mechanisms.
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It seems that there are no emergent universal principles or laws that can identified other than things happen because they can. If you subscribe to m-theory it seems that the universal law of the universe is the lack of a universal law.
Yes I like m-theory, however in a domain where spheres can be observed, Pi will always be the same value. Where there is extension(space) complex forms can only exist through the existence of particles(spheres). I see no evidence of squircles around here.
Materialism is a discussion of particles.

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Ah! Well we all start to see how naturalistic all of the religions and cults really are, how human their Gods are and how anthropomorphic their conceptions are, and it becomes clear how people cannot escape naturalism any way they try, you're either living in it or coping with it. There is nothing more satisfying and revolutionary than releasing the bonds of supernatural thinking, (as long as you're coping well with the damage from the programming)
Yes supernatural thinking in its historical form is stifling. However there were mystics and profits on ocassion who had a deeper vision. These days a deeper vision like m-theory is more to do with free thinking in which anything might be the case and nature points the way.

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No, not "almost identical" radically different, especially in the PFC. There is nothing special about humans other than the fact we have evolved in a more advanced way through luck.
Yes the chimpanzee brain is different, the processes involved in producing the mind of a chimp are the same as that which produces the mind in a human, rather there is just a bit more grey matter.

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These things all came about from the human just evolving in a world that just happened. Things just happened to work out that way. In another universe you would be saying "See! Look there, that's the divine nature being expressed!" But you'd be looking at something just as mundane as what I see mysticism as in this universe.
Yes, natural gods might exist in this scenario, ie intelligent manipulation of the fabric of nature. Nature might well be the product of manipulation.

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We've definitely evolved to enjoy mystery and adventure, I think that's just another psychic trap like agency.
You know how many words eskimos have for snow, well its like that with mystics and the unknown.
The Tao is an interesting consideration of the known and the unknown. The real Tao that is.

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Naturalist philosophy is everything, the most beautiful and the most brutal are understandable together. If we can find some kind of divine truth to align ourselves with or transcend naturalism, I'm all for it.
What an existing natural divinity might be is a remarkable thing.

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Land out west in the wilds of the B.C forests and mountains
Yes the beauty of nature, yesterday evening I was kayaking down the river Stour by Flatford mill (pictured in Constable's the Haywain). A thunder storm had just past and we were at the end of a rainbow, the light was sublime.

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Old 23rd June 2011, 01:24 AM   #650
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
Yes, my point was that biology only describes the mechanism, not the concepts being entertained by the mechanism. Rather like with a tv, the cathode ray tube can be described as an instrument. What you see on the screen is that other world within a world. Dualism is only a thought mode. Kind of like agency in thunderstorms. We can conceive of a "greater reality" but in this case, it's an illusion, no?
Materialism only describes mechanisms.
No, what you see on the tv screen and think and feel is inside of the great material world.
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Yes I like m-theory, however in a domain where spheres can be observed, Pi will always be the same value. Where there is extension(space) complex forms can only exist through the existence of particles(spheres). I see no evidence of squircles around here.
Well I can conceive of a universe where circles and spheres really aren't the name of the game. It does seem like a pretty common shape that's going to be in a lot of the universes though. But why is pi special? It's just number to explain something that's likely to come into being. Things just have to come into being, and there's probably going to be circles. More likely than there will be humans!
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Materialism is a discussion of particles.
And sub-atomic particles and strings and stuff of any kind...
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Yes supernatural thinking in its historical form is stifling. However there were mystics and profits
lol! Made me smile
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on ocassion who had a deeper vision. These days a deeper vision like m-theory is more to do with free thinking in which anything might be the case and nature points the way.
Well in a sample of 10,000 madmen 1 of them is going to have some pretty good ideas and thoughts about reality that can help people live successfully, it doesn't mean they got their success from anything supernatural or aligned with the divine they just figured stuff out good with their naturally selected brains. There is something to be said for "going along with nature" but we can't trick ourselves that we've got "it" or that means everything is going to work out for us now that we're aligned with "it" because "it" is probably just the mother of all patterns we think we have discovered in nature but it's another illusion from the pattern recognition system.
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Yes, natural gods might exist in this scenario, ie intelligent manipulation of the fabric of nature. Nature might well be the product of manipulation.
Are you suggesting deism? If nature is intelligent manipulation, the manipulator has an extremely low IQ and wants us to think it doesn't exist by making everything appear absolutely natural, that's my take.
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You know how many words eskimos have for snow, well its like that with mystics and the unknown.
The Tao is an interesting consideration of the known and the unknown. The real Tao that is.
It is the philosophy of having no philosophy? jokes...
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What an existing natural divinity might be is a remarkable thing.
I would be happy with an artificial divinity. You know, somehow create a universal paradise.
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Yes the beauty of nature, yesterday evening I was kayaking down the river Stour by Flatford mill (pictured in Constable's the Haywain). A thunder storm had just past and we were at the end of a rainbow, the light was sublime.
That's too much goodness all at once! Hey I can live without my artificial paradise when we have things like that. I made it across the pond once but never explored the countryside like that, obviously a serious oversight. Constable's the Haywain

Cheers
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Old 23rd June 2011, 07:48 AM   #651
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Eskimos,or Inuit do not have many words for snow but no actual word or snow,that is an urban myth.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/langu...es/004003.html

'The idea that Eskimos have many more words for snow than English speakers is a myth. All eight Eskimo languages have extraordinarily rich possibilities for deriving new words on the fly from established bases. So where English uses separate words to make up descriptive phrases like "early snow falling in autumn" or "snow with a herring-scale pattern etched into it by rainfall", Eskimo languages have an astonishing propensity for being able to express such concepts (about anything, not just snow) with a single derived word. To the extent that counting basic snow words makes any real sense (it is often difficult to decide whether a word really names a snow phenomenon), Eskimo languages do not appear to have more than English has (think of snow, slush, sleet, blizzard, drift, white-out, flurry, powder, dusting, and so on).'

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Old 27th June 2011, 07:18 AM   #652
punshhh
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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
Eskimos,or Inuit do not have many words for snow but no actual word or snow,that is an urban myth.

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/langu...es/004003.html

'The idea that Eskimos have many more words for snow than English speakers is a myth. All eight Eskimo languages have extraordinarily rich possibilities for deriving new words on the fly from established bases. So where English uses separate words to make up descriptive phrases like "early snow falling in autumn" or "snow with a herring-scale pattern etched into it by rainfall", Eskimo languages have an astonishing propensity for being able to express such concepts (about anything, not just snow) with a single derived word. To the extent that counting basic snow words makes any real sense (it is often difficult to decide whether a word really names a snow phenomenon), Eskimo languages do not appear to have more than English has (think of snow, slush, sleet, blizzard, drift, white-out, flurry, powder, dusting, and so on).'
Thanks that was interresting, I was using the phrase in its commonly used understanding. Which is meaningful even if its actually incorrect.
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Old 27th June 2011, 07:37 AM   #653
punshhh
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
But why is pi special? It's just number to explain something that's likely to come into being. Things just have to come into being, and there's probably going to be circles. More likely than there will be humans!
I don't regard pi as special its just a good example of a relation which would manifest in any universe in which there are particles or circular forms. Its value appears to be universal.
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And sub-atomic particles and strings and stuff of any kind...lol! Made me smile
Materialism is a discussion of physical things and their interactions, nothing more.

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Are you suggesting deism? If nature is intelligent manipulation, the manipulator has an extremely low IQ and wants us to think it doesn't exist by making everything appear absolutely natural, that's my take.
I am not suggesting deism as it is referred to on this forum, rather as a natural process.
We cannot know what the method or purpose of an intelligent manipulator might be, hence their IQ etc.

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It is the philosophy of having no philosophy?
It is the philosophy of perspective. Seeing the wood for the trees.
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I would be happy with an artificial divinity. You know, somehow create a universal paradise.
Sounds perfectly natural to me.
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That's too much goodness all at once!
my arms are still aching from the paddling and the back ache has woken me up a few times.
It was worth it though
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Old 27th June 2011, 08:52 AM   #654
dafydd
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
. Which is meaningful even if its actually incorrect.
That sums up your entire approach,except for the meaningful bit.
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Old 28th June 2011, 06:51 PM   #655
Limbo
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
And the straw that broke the camel's back: retrocausality.

Well, then your lame camel has a weak back.

AAAS Symposium on Quantum Retrocausation

Predicting the Unpredictable: 75 Years of Experimental Evidence

Abstract

From time immemorial, people have reported foreknowledge of future events. To determine whether such experiences are best understood via conventional explanations, or whether a retrocausal phenomenon might be involved in some instances, researchers have conducted hundreds of controlled laboratory experiments over the past 75 years. These studies fall into four general classes, and each class has generated repeatable evidence consistent with retrocausation. The statistical results for a class of forced-choice studies is associated with odds against chance of about 1E24; for a class of free-response studies, odds about 1E20; for psychophysiological-based studies, odds about 1E17; and for implicit decision studies, odds about 1E10. Effect sizes observed in the latter three classes are nearly identical, indicating replication of similar underlying effects. These effects are also in close agreement with the average effect size observed across thousands of conventional psychological experiments, suggesting that retrocausal phenomena may not be especially unique, at least not in terms of commonly observed psychological phenomena. Bayesian analyses of the most recent classes of experiments confirm that the evidence is strongly in favor of a genuine effect, with Bayes Factors ranging from 13,669 to 1 for implicit decision experiments, to 2.9 x 1013 to 1 for psychophysiological designs. For the two most recent classes of studies examining retrocausal effects via unconscious physiological or behavioral measures, 73 of 82 studies (89%) reported by 23 different laboratories from the United States, Italy, Spain, Holland, Austria, Sweden, England, Scotland, Iran, Japan, and Australia, have produced results in the direction predicted by a retrocausal effect (odds against chance = 1.5 x 1013, via a sign test). Assessment of the methodologies used in these studies has not identified plausible conventional alternatives for the observed outcomes, suggesting the existence of a genuine retrocausal phenomenon.

Ladewig, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Stop wasting your time on internet forums like this one and read some books. These pathological pseudo-skeptic activists don't know squat. Here are a few good books I've read and recommend.

Extraordinary Knowing
Parapsychology and the Skeptics
Randi's Prize
Introduction to Parapsychology
Varieties of Anomalous Experience
The Parapsychology Revolution
The Intention Experiment
Outside the Gates of Science
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"Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

Last edited by Limbo; 28th June 2011 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 28th June 2011, 08:20 PM   #656
Maurice Ledifficile
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Originally Posted by Limbo View Post
[snippitty]

Ladewig, I've said it before and I'll say it again. Stop wasting your time on internet forums like this one and read some books. These pathological pseudo-skeptic activists don't know squat. Here are a few good books I've read and recommend.

Extraordinary Knowing
Parapsychology and the Skeptics
Randi's Prize
Introduction to Parapsychology
Varieties of Anomalous Experience
The Parapsychology Revolution
The Intention Experiment
Outside the Gates of Science
Soooo... After reading something like this, I'm supposed to want to read what you recommend?

Fat chance.
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Old 28th June 2011, 08:31 PM   #657
bruto
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Originally Posted by Maurice Ledifficile View Post
Soooo... After reading something like this, I'm supposed to want to read what you recommend?

Fat chance.
But it's all full of quantum and stuff. You can haz quantum and you refuse? Hopeless.
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Old 1st July 2011, 08:23 AM   #658
Joey McGee
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Originally Posted by punshhh View Post
I don't regard pi as special its just a good example of a relation which would manifest in any universe
How can you be sure of this? You can't be!
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in which there are particles or circular forms. Its value appears to be universal.
appears to be meaningless, really.
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Materialism is a discussion of physical things and their interactions, nothing more.
Nope, materialistic monism is a position on all things.
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I am not suggesting deism as it is referred to on this forum, rather as a natural process.
If the universe and intelligence formed by a "natural process" it can't be deism by any use of the word.
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We cannot know what the method or purpose of an intelligent manipulator might be, hence their IQ etc.
Why not? There is zero evidence of intelligent manipulation of anything, except for the beings who formed naturally after the random events...
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It is the philosophy of perspective. Seeing the wood for the trees.
Or is it the philosophy of mysticism? Accepting generalized and emotionalized patterns instead of looking at the true nature of events. This philosophy has it's purposes for some, but it's nothing like a truth claim.

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Sounds perfectly natural to me.
my arms are still aching from the paddling and the back ache has woken me up a few times.
It was worth it though
Heh, did you ever wake up from paddling in your sleep? Neurons are funny things!
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