IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags bible , buddhism , christianity , god , hinduism , islam , jesus

Reply
Old 5th June 2011, 07:34 PM   #121
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
First off, let me tell you how pleased I am that our friendship has developed so quickly.

Second. No, I am not missing the significance, you are merely overstating the significance. The folks back then had absolutely no idea what caused epilepsy. They made up stories to describe what they thought was happening. They used language related to their made up stories. The idea that rapture and seizure are related is not relevant, because a seizure is a manifestation of a neurological disorder. It is not divine, it is not revelatory, it is not insightful, it is not a passageway to another plane of existence. It is a symptom of a illness of the brain.

Third, have you presented your ideas to your old college professors and what have they said about them?
I regularly post comments on my Facebook wall about what "the Great Books", as well as famous songs & movies, have to say about the world's biggest mysteries for the students of St. John's College, since there are no majors there and we all studied the same things. As I only found a few of the teachers on Facebook, I only have spoken to a few, whom I have interested with my comments. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1598178443

it is "illnesses" of the brain that lead you to other "planes" of existence. A common shamanistic technique for traveling into the world of the Spirit, Plato's Realm of Ideas/Forms, is sleep deprivation, which is also one of the principal causes of epilepsy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism That is why the Bible tells you repeatedly to "abstain from the desires of the body"(1 Pet.2:11) which include food & sleep. There are several exhortations to FASTING & WATCHING (i.e. not sleeping) in the Bible, for this specific purpose.

Last edited by gjpogiatzis; 5th June 2011 at 07:36 PM.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2011, 07:41 PM   #122
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by Pup View Post
So I take it the answer is that you have no evidence, if you need to put it in the same category as hallucinations and fiction.
I was trying to get you to reconsider what is "fiction" and what is "real". "if you think you know ANYTHING, you know nothing as you ought."-1Cor.8:2 // Socrates' "I know I know nothing." Look again very closely at what I quoted, because the fundamental mystery concerns the nature of "reality":

that elicits the fundamental question "what is reality?" whose answer is not at all obvious. In Bk.11.9 of the Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky leaves it an open question whether "the devil" Ivan converses with is just a hallucination or is "really" there. The Diamond Sutra of the Buddha says that all conditioned existence (all we experience) is just a dream: http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond...xt/page32.html, just as Shakespeare says in The Tempest "we are the stuff that dreams are made of." Consider Don Quixote in light of these statements.

I'll add to that, consider Descartes' Meditations, in which he raises the question how do we know we're not dreaming right now? And the Matrix.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2011, 07:53 PM   #123
Pup
Philosopher
 
Pup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,679
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
it is "illnesses" of the brain that lead you to other "planes" of existence. A common shamanistic technique for traveling into the world of the Spirit, Plato's Realm of Ideas/Forms, is sleep deprivation, which is also one of the principal causes of epilepsy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism That is why the Bible tells you repeatedly to "abstain from the desires of the body"(1 Pet.2:11) which include food & sleep. There are several exhortations to FASTING & WATCHING (i.e. not sleeping) in the Bible, for this specific purpose.
Sleep deprivation causes epilepsy?

But anyway, I agree with the first sentence, if it includes the clarification that an illness of the brain can lead to the illusion of other planes of existence, but it's not evidence of other planes of existence in itself, any more than an optical illusion is evidence that one line really is shorter than another.

The cross-cultural similarities of spiritual experiences show that our brains work in predictable ways, but the differences show that each person interpreted the experiences based on their cultural norms.

How would you falsify the claim that these experiences actually lead a person to other planes of existence, rather than merely give that illusion? Or do you think turning it into a falsifiable hypothesis is even important?
Pup is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2011, 09:05 PM   #124
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
it is "illnesses" of the brain that lead you to other "planes" of existence.
Have you ever mentioned that to an actual epileptic?

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
A common shamanistic technique for traveling into the world of the Spirit, Plato's Realm of Ideas/Forms, is sleep deprivation, which is also one of the principal causes of epilepsy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
I would have thought that you would have learned how to make citations at your college. If you make a claim and immediately follow that claim with a URL, then it is expected that the URL will say something about the claim being made. Sleep deprivation is not mentioned on the cited Wikipedia page. If instead of making a citation, you want us to learn more about a subject, then say "for more information, see this website:"

Speaking of citations, do you have a citation for sleep deprivation being a cause of epilepsy? Or were you trying to say that sleep deprivation is a cause of seizures in people already diagnosed with epilepsy?
........................
ETA: couple more questions

Faith healing is mentioned in the Bible. Does faith healing work?
Do you believe that there is such a thing as demonic possession?
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 5th June 2011 at 09:42 PM.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2011, 09:14 PM   #125
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
I regularly post comments on my Facebook wall about what "the Great Books", as well as famous songs & movies, have to say about the world's biggest mysteries for the students of St. John's College, since there are no majors there and we all studied the same things. As I only found a few of the teachers on Facebook, I only have spoken to a few, whom I have interested with my comments. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1598178443
OK. Have you considered writing up your work in 3 or 4 pages and actually sending it to professors that you studied under? You can probably find their names and e-mails in a campus directory. The problem with saying that you have interested people with your Facebook wall comments is that people are polite and may say they are interested when they mean that you have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps you could contact the alumni magazine and offer to write a short article about your research.

Here's my main point. When I was a Christian, one of the most profound and useful pieces of advice I ever received was "if you feel you have a sudden insight into some aspect of spirituality, the first thing you should do is find a knowledgeable, educated spiritual leader and talk to him or her about it." Very often it is too easy to get caught up in one's own philosophy and to fool oneself into thinking one has great insight. It really is a good idea to have a formal discussion with an expert.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2011, 10:07 PM   #126
!Kaggen
Illuminator
 
!Kaggen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,874
:-)
Quote:
P.S. for ikaggen: Steering gipogiatzis, of all people, toward Rudolf Steiner is like telling a morphine addict he can kick the habit by taking heroin. Naughty naughty!
It was meant for Calebprime.

On second thoughts Ibogaine has been known to be a cure for heroin addiction.
__________________
"Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa
"We live in a world of more and more information and less and less meaning" Jean Baudrillard
http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/
!Kaggen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th June 2011, 11:01 PM   #127
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
if you just type in "sleep deprivation epilepsy" in a google search, you will find plenty of sites linking the two, or at least linking the former with increased likelihood of seizures in people who have the latter, like this site: http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/ep...eprivedeeg.cfm. No wonder epilepsy is called "St. Paul's Disease" in Ireland- 2 Cor. 6 says he was "often in fastings & watchings [i.e. not sleeping]" The URL about Shamanism was to show that sleep deprivation is a common technique used by shamans for communing with the spirit world, Plato's realm of Ideas/Forms.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:01 AM   #128
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,691
I wonder what the bible would be like if those old prophets had had access to proper LSD instead of having to make do with starving and whipping themselves?
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:45 AM   #129
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
This thread reminds me of that Umberto Eco book "Foucault's Pendulum". The characters in that book spent a lot of time reading a whole lot of different texts and finding patterns and hidden meanings. It didn't do them much good as I recall.

Just don't go locking yourself into any museums overnight waiting for the secret masonic rulers to show up. You might get more than you bargained for.
An awful book. Even in the love scenes the characters talked like dry philosophical professors.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:46 AM   #130
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
if you just type in "sleep deprivation epilepsy" in a google search, you will find plenty of sites linking the two, or at least linking the former with increased likelihood of seizures in people who have the latter, like this site: http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/ep...eprivedeeg.cfm. No wonder epilepsy is called "St. Paul's Disease" in Ireland- 2 Cor. 6 says he was "often in fastings & watchings [i.e. not sleeping]" The URL about Shamanism was to show that sleep deprivation is a common technique used by shamans for communing with the spirit world, Plato's realm of Ideas/Forms.
You have proof of the existence of this 'spirit world' I take it?
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 03:50 AM   #131
calebprime
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13,001
Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
You might find this interesting.

Friedrich Nietzsche- Fighter for Freedom by Rudolf Steiner

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA005/...005_index.html

Steiner had some interesting exposure to Nietzsche towards the end of his life.
Thanks! I live right near a library, so I can request it.

Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
That Paul distinguishes between "master" and "slave" morality is much more evident in Galatians 4, though it is hinted at in Ephesians & Colossians by his addressing "masters" & "slaves" separately.
I'll read it.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You know, the ability to synthesize and see similarities and connections is a great quality of the human mind. It gives rise to intuition, poetry, and sometimes discovery. But you must not let it go too far. ...

P.S. for ikaggen: Steering gipogiatzis, of all people, toward Rudolf Steiner is like telling a morphine addict he can kick the habit by taking heroin. Naughty naughty!
Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
:-)

It was meant for Calebprime.

On second thoughts Ibogaine has been known to be a cure for heroin addiction.
A guy with mystical leanings once criticized me as being an "intellectual jock". Reading Nietzsche for me is just a big hobby and a challenge to my English common sense. (Though I'm American.)

As a project in intellectual history, I like to start with Nietzsche and work backward and outward. This is a little like starting with Charlie Parker and working backward in music history. Why begin at the beginning, when it's so much more fun to start in the middle?

What would have happened to the progress of philosophy if Nietzsche hadn't been so sick, and had lived to reconsider his ideas? If he had understood Darwin? He has insight into the minds of artists and others, but he seems to have not had enough training in science to come down on the right side of the debate about evolution, and to have had no real understanding of physics. He had a lot of influence on writers and even on Freud, but no influence on science. So he has an important place in intellectual history, but you have to read him skeptically, and not take him as an authority. (That's the way he would have wanted it.)

Some writers/thinkers he influenced: Kafka, Yeats, George Bernard Shaw, Primo Levi, Freud, others.

Oatmeal time, now.
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 04:51 AM   #132
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
:-)

It was meant for Calebprime.

On second thoughts Ibogaine has been known to be a cure for heroin addiction.
So that's why Senator Muskie was taking it!
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 05:20 AM   #133
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
The URL about Shamanism was to show that sleep deprivation is a common technique used by shamans for communing with the spirit world, Plato's realm of Ideas/Forms.
I guess I wasn't clear in my criticism. If the citation does not mention sleep deprivation in any form, then it cannot show that it is common technique for shamans.

But as long as we are talking about the article, it does mention that the roles of a shaman include treating sickness caused by evil spirits and telling the future through scrying, throwing bones/runes, or using other varied forms of divination.

So my questions

1) Can evil spirits cause some sicknesses? If so which diseases?
2) Can shaman, priests, or other spiritual leaders cure these evil illnesses?
3) Can prayer heal illnesses not caused by evil spirits?
4) Is it possible to see the future through spiritual rituals (including, but not limited to trances, runes, augury, and the like). If it exists, then is the Bible correct to condemn this type of activity?
5) Do lucky charms exist? Love potions?
6) Worldwide, what percent of Christians are "foolish Christians"? What percent of Muslims are "foolish Muslims"? I understand that these would be very gross estimates, I'm just looking for a ballpark estimate.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 6th June 2011 at 05:25 AM.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 05:23 AM   #134
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
if you just type in "sleep deprivation epilepsy" in a google search, you will find plenty of sites linking the two, or at least linking the former with increased likelihood of seizures in people who have the latter,
Thanks for clearing that up. That is not what you said in the other post.
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 06:01 AM   #135
!Kaggen
Illuminator
 
!Kaggen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,874
Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
So that's why Senator Muskie was taking it!
That apparently is a BS story invented by a Rolling Stone journalist.

Its funny how the wiki article on Muskie lists Ibogaine as "an obscure Brazilian painkiller"!
__________________
"Anyway, why is a finely-engineered machine of wire and silicon less likely to be conscious than two pounds of warm meat?" Pixy Misa
"We live in a world of more and more information and less and less meaning" Jean Baudrillard
http://bokashiworld.wordpress.com/
!Kaggen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 06:09 AM   #136
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by !Kaggen View Post
That apparently is a BS story invented by a Rolling Stone journalist.

Its funny how the wiki article on Muskie lists Ibogaine as "an obscure Brazilian painkiller"!
It was one of the good doctor Hunter S. Thompson's jokes. He didn't think that anyone would believe it. The article was very funny.

Last edited by dafydd; 6th June 2011 at 06:17 AM.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 06:10 AM   #137
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I guess I wasn't clear in my criticism. If the citation does not mention sleep deprivation in any form, then it cannot show that it is common technique for shamans.

But as long as we are talking about the article, it does mention that the roles of a shaman include treating sickness caused by evil spirits and telling the future through scrying, throwing bones/runes, or using other varied forms of divination.

So my questions

1) Can evil spirits cause some sicknesses? If so which diseases?
2) Can shaman, priests, or other spiritual leaders cure these evil illnesses?
3) Can prayer heal illnesses not caused by evil spirits?
4) Is it possible to see the future through spiritual rituals (including, but not limited to trances, runes, augury, and the like). If it exists, then is the Bible correct to condemn this type of activity?
5) Do lucky charms exist? Love potions?
6) Worldwide, what percent of Christians are "foolish Christians"? What percent of Muslims are "foolish Muslims"? I understand that these would be very gross estimates, I'm just looking for a ballpark estimate.
1 no
2 no
3 no
4 no and no
5 no and no(unless you call GHB a love potion)
6 no idea

Last edited by dafydd; 6th June 2011 at 06:19 AM.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 06:19 AM   #138
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 36,113
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
I was trying to get you to reconsider what is "fiction" and what is "real". "if you think you know ANYTHING, you know nothing as you ought."-1Cor.8:2 // Socrates' "I know I know nothing." Look again very closely at what I quoted, because the fundamental mystery concerns the nature of "reality":

that elicits the fundamental question "what is reality?" whose answer is not at all obvious. In Bk.11.9 of the Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky leaves it an open question whether "the devil" Ivan converses with is just a hallucination or is "really" there. The Diamond Sutra of the Buddha says that all conditioned existence (all we experience) is just a dream: http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond...xt/page32.html, just as Shakespeare says in The Tempest "we are the stuff that dreams are made of." Consider Don Quixote in light of these statements.

I'll add to that, consider Descartes' Meditations, in which he raises the question how do we know we're not dreaming right now? And the Matrix.
Certainly the best fiction reflects reality and helps us to understand it, but we cannot forget that it is fiction. Fiction is intentionally fictitious, and if we do not take it into account and remember the difference between metaphor and true connection, we are in danger of confusion.

I find your approach interesting in an odd way, but I believe if you try too hard to blend everything together you end up with an intellectual vichysoisse, devoid of real significance or usefulness. It's fun to groove on the connectedness of everything, but if you want meaning, you have to sort.

And I might respectfully suggest that when Socrates said he knew nothing he was not being entirely truthful. The Socratic technique was a rhetorical device to teach people how to arrive at conclusions. The conclusions were planned. Of course since when we read Socrates we're really reading Plato it can be hard to be sure, but Plato provide a pretty clear concept of what he believes reality is, and he puts the process of discovering this in the character of Socrates.
__________________
Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière)

A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 06:24 AM   #139
Sawbones79
Critical Thinker
 
Sawbones79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Yes, it has been called the sacred disease and has been referred to as demonic possession. But epilepsy is neither of those. It is a neurological disorder that can be treated with medicine. People who lived 2000 years ago had a very ignorant view of disease and its causes. Finding deep meaning in their ignorance is not useful.
Very seconded. Epilepsy also covers a very wide range of severity, from benign juvenile absence to severe grand mal seizures. Those historical figures considered "epileptics" most probably suffered from the later variety.
Sawbones79 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 10:27 AM   #140
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Exclamation What is human virtue? Universal Love? Power/Energy? (Bible,Plato,Nietzsche,Tao,...)

What is human virtue?

On the one hand,
-"All you need is love"
-Matthew 22:36-40: The whole of God's law is based on loving God with all your being & loving your neighbor as yourself.
-"They who delight in the good of all will reach the infinite spirit."-Bhagavad Gita
-"I have three treasures: love (kindness,motherly love), moderation, & humility."-Tao te Ching #67 http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap67.htm#top

On the other hand,
-The Tao te Ching's word for "virtue" can also be translated as "energy" or "power" http://www.taopage.org/te.html
-Nietzsche: "good is whatever increases power or the feeling of power"
-Plato's Gorgias: Gorgias tells Socrates that the greatest good is "that which gives to men freedom in their own persons, and to individuals the power of ruling over others in their several states." http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/gorgias.html
-Revelation 2:26: "To him that overcomes/conquers, I will give power over the nations"
-Acts 1:8: "You will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you". So holy person=a powerful person?



Can these two views be reconciled?
I just received the following email, which is a good demonstration of the teaching "Love conquers all" and more love=more energy/power:
"How Unconditional Love Raises Your Internal Thermostat For Success"

"A previous message focused on the importance of a positive
vibrational state. In summary, when we are in alignment with the
energy vibration that comes from the feelings we know we would have
when our dreams are manifest, then those dreams are manifest and
will show up
[so the good is having the power to achieve your dreams/desires?]. There are no exceptions although it can seem like
there are.

"Unconditional love is a way to elevate your positive vibrational
energy to the stars. Being in a state of unconditional love is also
a challenge for many of us depending on what we are experiencing.

"Once you believe Oneness in the literal sense meaning you
understand that the Divine Source Energy is in all then it is easy
to express and feel the words "I Love You" because we are
expressing that love for the Divine Source energy in another even
while possibly being repulsed by the physical act of that person."
[Compare the Bhagavad Gita, where Krishna, who speaks of himself as pervading all things, says that the wise person "sees Me everywhere"]



But can this "power" be used unjustly, as Socrates objects to Gorgias? Then what is human virtue?



(I regularly post on my Facebook wall http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1598178443 about what the "Great Books" have to say about "what is the Good?" and how one comes to know the good, for Socrates says correctly in Plato's Apology: "I cannot ‘mind my own business’… to let no day pass w/o discussing goodness &all the other subjects about which you hear me talking&examining both myself&others is reallyTHE VERY BEST THING THAT A MAN CAN DO,& a life w/o this sort of examination is NOT WORTH LIVING." Feel free to send me a friend request.)

Last edited by gjpogiatzis; 6th June 2011 at 10:42 AM.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 10:35 AM   #141
MinnesotaBrant
Philosopher
 
MinnesotaBrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,519
I do not believe in unconditional love. To me the idea is just stupid. I however do believe in love unlike my wife who just believes in people who are useful to her. I will say that sometimes when I say I love you its all fake on some level. How about you?

Last edited by MinnesotaBrant; 6th June 2011 at 10:37 AM.
MinnesotaBrant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 10:39 AM   #142
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Why is it "stupid"? Indeed, this in one sense seems kind of stupid: "Love believes/trusts ALL things"-1 Cor.13 But even if it is, is "stupid" necessarily bad? "Be a fool to be wise"-1 Cor.3:18.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 10:43 AM   #143
RobDegraves
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 787
Quote:
when we are in alignment with the
energy vibration that comes from the feelings we know we would have
when our dreams are manifest, then those dreams are manifest and
will show up
So...hmmm...


What frequency would this vibration be at? Do you measure in megahertz or just in dream frequencies?

What energy is this? Mechanical, heat, electromagnetic or just dreamanitic?

If I dream of a really big elephant.... will one show up? I ask because I don't think we have enough room for one so I will try to avoid that.
RobDegraves is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 10:51 AM   #144
MinnesotaBrant
Philosopher
 
MinnesotaBrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,519
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Why is it "stupid"? Indeed, this in one sense seems kind of stupid: "Love believes/trusts ALL things"-1 Cor.13 But even if it is, is "stupid" necessarily bad? "Be a fool to be wise"-1 Cor.3:18.
White magic is always stupid.
MinnesotaBrant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 10:54 AM   #145
slingblade
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,466
Human "virtue" is whatever thing we judge good and that we would like to see others emulate.

Because there are things I think are good, that I would rarely want to see anyone emulate. Likewise, there are things that people emulate, that I think not so good.

Subjective concepts are malleable like that. They are the famous epitome of trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.

We need not reconcile the concepts of virtue and power, of good and energy, or any permutation thereof. It should be obvious that the power does not lie in the nouns of "virtue" or "good." The power lies where it always has: in the verbs "to do," and "to be."

There is no power in inaction. To do good or to do bad is to wield or to generate some kind of power, to use or to generate some kind of energy. There is no inherent evil in associating good/virtue with energy/power.
slingblade is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 11:03 AM   #146
MinnesotaBrant
Philosopher
 
MinnesotaBrant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 5,519
Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
Human "virtue" is whatever thing we judge good and that we would like to see others emulate.

Because there are things I think are good, that I would rarely want to see anyone emulate. Likewise, there are things that people emulate, that I think not so good.

Subjective concepts are malleable like that. They are the famous epitome of trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.

We need not reconcile the concepts of virtue and power, of good and energy, or any permutation thereof. It should be obvious that the power does not lie in the nouns of "virtue" or "good." The power lies where it always has: in the verbs "to do," and "to be."

There is no power in inaction. To do good or to do bad is to wield or to generate some kind of power, to use or to generate some kind of energy. There is no inherent evil in associating good/virtue with energy/power.
You run the risk of sounding like your practice white magic.
MinnesotaBrant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 12:37 PM   #147
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Exclamation Only way to truth:Trance, out-of-body experience, "rapture": Plato,Bible,Gita,Tao,...

In Plato's Symposium, Diotima says that "if anyone's life is worth living and if anyone becomes immortal/gains "eternal life", it is he who has seen "The Beautiful Itself" ("God") with the mind, for it cannot be seen with the senses. How does one come to see this?

Plato: Phaedo http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedo.html
"Socrates: And what do you say of another question, my friend, about which I should like to have your opinion, and the answer to which will probably throw light on our present inquiry: Do you think that the philosopher ought to care about the pleasures-if they are to be called pleasures-of eating and drinking?
Certainly not, answered Simmias.
And what do you say of the pleasures of sex-should he care about them?
By no means...
Would you not say that he is entirely concerned with the soul and not with the body? He would like, as far as he can, to be quit of the body and turn to the soul...

"if we would have pure knowledge of anything we must be quit of the body, and the soul in herself must behold all things in themselves: then I suppose that we shall attain that which we desire, and of which we say that we are lovers, and that is wisdom, not while we live, but after death, as the argument shows; for if while in company with the body the soul cannot have pure knowledge, one of two things seems to follow-either knowledge is not to be attained at all, or, if at all, after death. For then, and not till then, the soul will be in herself alone and without the body. In this present life, I reckon that we make the nearest approach to knowledge when we have the least possible concern or interest in the body, and are not saturated with the bodily nature."


Bhagavad Gita 2.58-59
"When, like a tortoise retracting its limbs, he withdraws his senses completely from sensuous objects, his insight is sure. Sensuous objects fade when the embodied self abstains from food; the taste lingers, but it too fades in the vision of higher truth."
6:22: "Absolute joy beyond the senses can only be grasped by the understanding...obtaining it, he thinks there is no greater gain; abiding there, he is unmoved, even by suffering."

How reach this state:
5:27: "shuns external objects, fixes his gaze between his brows" [on the third eye]
6:25-30:"He should think nothing...become one with the infinite spirit...sees me everywhere and sees everything in me...grasps the oneness of life"

Compare with the Tao te Ching: http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm
Ch.16: be completely empty [of thoughts & food] to see all things returning to their source and feel connected to and sympathetic with all things
Ch.56: "block up your senses"

Bible:
1 Pet. 2:11: "Abstain from the desires of the body [food & sleep], which war against the soul"
Joel 2:12,28: "Turn to me with all your heart, with FASTING & weeping...& I will pour My Spirit out...dream dreams & see visions"
2 Cor.12: "caught up [same Greek word for "rapture" of 1 Thess.4] to the third heaven, whether in or out of the body I know not"
2 Cor. 6: "I was often in fastings, watchings [without sleep]..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
Shamanistic techniques for communing with the spirit world, Plato's realm of Ideas/Forms, are fasting & watching ("vigils")
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1...man+oil+hebrew
Hebrew word for "oily" is "Shaman" when transliterated, and Christian means "anointed" ["smeared with oil"] in Greek. "Anointed" in Hebrew is "Mashiach"-MESSIAH! Jesus is not the only person called the "anointed" in the Bible (others: Cyrus in Is.45, King David, Saul, Prince of Tyre in Ezk.28, O.T. priests, etc.)


What are some other ways to trance? out-of-body experience?
What exactly does one experience in these states? (research "mysticism")
What are some precautions you should take in seeking these experiences?
For note that Paul says in 2 Cor. 12 that because of his "exceeding abundant revelations" he was "given a thorn in the flesh, a messenger/angel of Satan, to torment me" much like Faust-Mephistopheles & Ivan/"The Devil" in Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov Bk.11:9. So please beware!


For more on what the Great Books teach on how to advance spiritually and attain the most fulfilled life, see my Facebook wall posts: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1598178443. Feel free to send me a friend request.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 12:41 PM   #148
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
If logic needs a holiday, I'll give you a call.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 12:44 PM   #149
I Am The Scum
Philosopher
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,108
Human virtue is the ability to make sense.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 12:51 PM   #150
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
thank you for being so kind! perhaps you should give a call to plato and the others as well, because it's their doctrine I was relating!

Last edited by gjpogiatzis; 6th June 2011 at 01:06 PM.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 12:57 PM   #151
IMST
If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats
 
IMST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,326
...so what? You're putting the opinions of one ancient philosopher and 3 religious texts as though the collections of mostly atheists here would care. I've got maybe 65 years to exist, I've done 30 of them and I'm not in any interested in wasting the remainder abstaining from food, drink or sex based on religious ideas of what's right or for preparation for an almost certainly fictional afterlife.
__________________
Creativity is more than just being different. Anybody can plan weird; that's easy. What's hard is to be as simple as Bach. Making the simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. - Charles Mingus
IMST is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:09 PM   #152
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Surely they can't all be lying about the same thing, can they? Why don't you test what they say before dismissing them, when they claim such extraordinary benefits?:

"Better is one day of life for the man who sees the highest law & the immortal place than 100 years of life for the man who doesn't." (Buddha's Dhammapada Ch.8)

"Better is one day in Your courts than 1000 elsewhere!" (Psalm 84)

"Why, the moment the gates of Paradise were open and he walked in; before he had been there two seconds, by his watch (though to my thinking his watch must have long dissolved into its elements on the way), he cried out that those two seconds were worth walking not a quadrillion kilometres but a quadrillion of quadrillions, raised to the quadrillionth power! In fact, he sang 'hosannah' and overdid it so, that some persons there of lofty ideas wouldn't shake hands with him at first." (Dostoevsky, Brothers Karamazov 11.9)

"The Night of Power (towards the end of Ramadan month of fasting everyday from sunrise till sunset) is better than a thousand months. Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission." (Koran, Sura 97)

These "angels" are the "Muses" that inspired all the greatest poets- Homer, Virgil, Dante, Milton, etc. and musicians. ex. Handel on how he composed the "Messiah": "it was as if all heaven was opened to me!" http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/skylark...ng/page43.html

Last edited by gjpogiatzis; 6th June 2011 at 01:12 PM.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:19 PM   #153
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
You seem fgascinated by shamans. In the other thread you suggested looking at the Wikipedia entry for Shamanism. I did and now have questions for you

1) "A shaman can cure illnesses causesd by evil spirits." Do you believe some illnesses are caused by evil spirits? Do you believe shamans (or priests) can cure these illnesses?

2) "A shaman can tell the future, scry, throw bones/runes, and perform other varied forms of divination" Do you believe that there are rituals that will allow shamans to see the future? If the Bible condemns this type of divination, should we shun it?

3) Some cultures have a shaman that can create "sacred talismans." Is it possible to have an object that protects one from evil? From evil spirits and demons? From people trying to perform evil atrocities? Do lucky charms exist?

Followup on Bible questions

4) The Bible teaches that prayer and laying on of hands can heal illnesses. Do you think prayer can cure illnesses (I am asking if prayer can cure illnesses other than those caused by evil spirits, demons, or djinns)?

5) Was the world covered in a flood deep enough to cover mountains or was that a symbolic story?

Followup on trance questions

6) If you were to throw a book into the next room so that it fell open to a random page, could you sit a some distance from the book and meditate or otherwise trancify yourself so that you could spirit walk over to the book and read what is on the page? Can other people do it?

Misc questions

7) Did Atlantis exist?
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:21 PM   #154
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,781
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Surely they can't all be lying about the same thing, can they?
Why couldn't they all be lying about the same thing?

Or more realistically, why couldn't they all be mistaken about the same thing?
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:21 PM   #155
RossFW
Muse
 
RossFW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 896
As a complete layman, my knowledge of the majesty and wonder of the Universe, the Laws of Nature and the realities of existence are several powers of magnitude greater the Dante,Virgil, Milton or any others from previous period, not because of Angelic muses, but because of Human intellect.

I live in a Universe of 100 Billion Galaxies, able to look directly at a picture of a Nebula Billions of Mile away, gaze at a Moon with human footprints on it.....

The majesty and profound beauty of reality so totally outstrips fictitious imaginings, no matter how prettily written.

Would you be interested in learning more about the Universe we KNOW exists?
RossFW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:30 PM   #156
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
You seem fgascinated by shamans. In the other thread you suggested looking at the Wikipedia entry for Shamanism. I did and now have questions for you

1) "A shaman can cure illnesses causesd by evil spirits." Do you believe some illnesses are caused by evil spirits? Do you believe shamans (or priests) can cure these illnesses?

2) "A shaman can tell the future, scry, throw bones/runes, and perform other varied forms of divination" Do you believe that there are rituals that will allow shamans to see the future? If the Bible condemns this type of divination, should we shun it?

3) Some cultures have a shaman that can create "sacred talismans." Is it possible to have an object that protects one from evil? From evil spirits and demons? From people trying to perform evil atrocities? Do lucky charms exist?

Followup on Bible questions

4) The Bible teaches that prayer and laying on of hands can heal illnesses. Do you think prayer can cure illnesses (I am asking if prayer can cure illnesses other than those caused by evil spirits, demons, or djinns)?

5) Was the world covered in a flood deep enough to cover mountains or was that a symbolic story?

Followup on trance questions

6) If you were to throw a book into the next room so that it fell open to a random page, could you sit a some distance from the book and meditate or otherwise trancify yourself so that you could spirit walk over to the book and read what is on the page? Can other people do it?

Misc questions

7) Did Atlantis exist?
Please stay on topic so that the original issue doesn't get lost: the central issue is trance/rapture as the means to attaining truth, not shamanism per se. And I cannot answer every question someone poses because we need to prioritize and live each day like it is our last in order to be the best we can be.

Question#2) Actually, in Genesis 44, we see that Joseph does "divination" with a cup, and the Old Testament priests practiced "divination" with the Urim & Thummim, as I do with the I-Ching. ("divination" is related to communing with spirits, so I answered this question)

Question #6) that is what you are supposedly able to do in an out-of-body experience. You think it's impossible? "If you think you know anything, you know nothing as you ought."-1 Cor.8:2 Reality is much stranger than fiction. I saw on a tv show a few months ago it showed a dreaming person seeing what another person at a distance was seeing, through that person's eyes.

Question #7) I suppose there's only one way to find out! Out-of-body experience is supposed to enable you to travel anywhere, even time traveling like in Star Trek.
__________________
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...78443&sk=wall: My facebook wall, where I post what the Great Books,authors (Bible,Plato,Tao te Ching,Gita,Nietzsche, etc.) teach about the world's deepest mysteries: God/Satan, good/evil, happiness/misery, heaven/hell, life/death, etc. Send me a friend request.

Last edited by gjpogiatzis; 6th June 2011 at 01:41 PM.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:32 PM   #157
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by RossFW View Post
As a complete layman, my knowledge of the majesty and wonder of the Universe, the Laws of Nature and the realities of existence are several powers of magnitude greater the Dante,Virgil, Milton or any others from previous period, not because of Angelic muses, but because of Human intellect.

I live in a Universe of 100 Billion Galaxies, able to look directly at a picture of a Nebula Billions of Mile away, gaze at a Moon with human footprints on it.....

The majesty and profound beauty of reality so totally outstrips fictitious imaginings, no matter how prettily written.

Would you be interested in learning more about the Universe we KNOW exists?
it is "rapture" experiences that enable you to experience the whole universe, like Paul's being "caught up to the third heaven." Someone told me that while she was on ecstasy drug, she appeared to be in outer space on some kind of space ship. But of course these kinds of experiences, with or without drugs, can be very dangerous, so beware. And Dante's knowledge about the universe was very vast, as his poems show.
__________________
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...78443&sk=wall: My facebook wall, where I post what the Great Books,authors (Bible,Plato,Tao te Ching,Gita,Nietzsche, etc.) teach about the world's deepest mysteries: God/Satan, good/evil, happiness/misery, heaven/hell, life/death, etc. Send me a friend request.

Last edited by gjpogiatzis; 6th June 2011 at 01:36 PM.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:39 PM   #158
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Why couldn't they all be lying about the same thing?

Or more realistically, why couldn't they all be mistaken about the same thing?
Mistaken about what, about the feelings they experienced??? In the various quotes about their "rapture" experience being "better" than any other, they were simply relating their experiences.
__________________
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...78443&sk=wall: My facebook wall, where I post what the Great Books,authors (Bible,Plato,Tao te Ching,Gita,Nietzsche, etc.) teach about the world's deepest mysteries: God/Satan, good/evil, happiness/misery, heaven/hell, life/death, etc. Send me a friend request.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:43 PM   #159
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Wow. Stupid brain.

I read "only way to tour de France: out-of-body experience."
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th June 2011, 01:49 PM   #160
gjpogiatzis
Scholar
 
gjpogiatzis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 92
Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
Human "virtue" is whatever thing we judge good and that we would like to see others emulate.

Because there are things I think are good, that I would rarely want to see anyone emulate. Likewise, there are things that people emulate, that I think not so good.

Subjective concepts are malleable like that. They are the famous epitome of trying to nail Jell-O to a wall.

We need not reconcile the concepts of virtue and power, of good and energy, or any permutation thereof. It should be obvious that the power does not lie in the nouns of "virtue" or "good." The power lies where it always has: in the verbs "to do," and "to be."

There is no power in inaction. To do good or to do bad is to wield or to generate some kind of power, to use or to generate some kind of energy. There is no inherent evil in associating good/virtue with energy/power.
You say that human virtue is "whatever thing we judge good" & that we would like to see others emulate...

Is human "virtue" not the human "good"? But what makes a thing "good"? Is anything you judge good actually "good"?

What makes something worthy of emulation?
__________________
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...78443&sk=wall: My facebook wall, where I post what the Great Books,authors (Bible,Plato,Tao te Ching,Gita,Nietzsche, etc.) teach about the world's deepest mysteries: God/Satan, good/evil, happiness/misery, heaven/hell, life/death, etc. Send me a friend request.
gjpogiatzis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:18 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.