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6th June 2011, 01:51 PM | #161 |
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No, it is delusional experiences that allow you to BELIEVE you have experienced things that you have not.
If the experiences you claim where truth, there would be consistency between different cultures and religions as to what they experienced. There isn't. Dante MADE THINGS UP which made for great fiction- that is NOT the same thing as knowledge. |
6th June 2011, 01:53 PM | #162 |
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I would say mistaken, if they believed those experiences to have reflected a reality outside their own minds. The sensations may have been very real, but that in no way indicates that what these people might have credited with inspiring those sensations was real. I believe Dante and Milton were writing about Christian mythology in their most famous works, but that doesn't mean you can shake Satan's hand or take a tour of the nine circles of Hell. |
6th June 2011, 01:54 PM | #163 |
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if you had enough energy, then the elephant would show up, to your chagrin! "Whatsoever things you desire, believe you receive them, and you will have them."-Mark 11:24 The problem though is that it's not so easy to believe in things you can't see. SEEING IS BELIEVING. KUNDALINI AWAKENING ("baptism of the Holy Spirit-of fire") & the opening of the THIRD EYE are what enable you to make all dreams into reality. Even the reality you experience now is only a dream, says the end of Buddha's Diamond Sutra, The Matrix, Descartes' Meditations, Plato's Republic, etc.
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6th June 2011, 02:08 PM | #164 |
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Question what you consider to be "reality", friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coperni...on_(metaphor): Kant: "Hitherto it has been assumed that all our knowledge must conform to objects. But all attempts to extend our knowledge of objects by establishing something in regard to them a priori, by means of concepts, have, on this assumption, ended in failure. We must therefore make trial whether we may not have more success in the tasks of metaphysics, if we suppose that objects must conform to our knowledge" Much has been said on what Kant meant by referring to his philosophy as ‘proceeding precisely on the lines of Copernicus' primary hypothesis’. There has been a long-standing and still unresolved discussion on the inappropriateness of Kant’s analogy because, as most commentators see it, Kant inverted Copernicus' primary move.[4] This inversion is explained by Victor Cousin: “Copernicus, seeing it was impossible to explain the motion of the heavenly bodies on the supposition that these bodies moved around the earth considered as an immovable centre, adopted the alternative, of supposing all to move round the sun. So Kant, instead of supposing man to move around objects, supposed on the contrary, that he himself was the centre, and that all moved round him.[5]" It's interesting that Kant says humans, limited by sensible intuition, can't know things in themselves, but in the quotation from Plato's Phaedo, he says that by quitting the body we can know "things themselves." Putting the two together, to know things themselves, you have to abandon human nature, as the Bhagavad Gita speaks of being "united with the infinite spirit" when having these mystical experiences. |
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6th June 2011, 02:19 PM | #165 |
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6th June 2011, 02:21 PM | #166 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Brevity.
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6th June 2011, 02:21 PM | #167 |
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Almo! My Music Blog "No society ever collapsed because the poor had too much." — LeftySergeant "It may be that there is no body really at rest, to which the places and motions of others may be referred." –Issac Newton in the Principia |
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6th June 2011, 02:25 PM | #168 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I can clear that up for you... Got this e-mail that will either fix my credit card debt, or get me a free power chair... . "Weld lowveld seducer publicized embalmment this ceilometer- buckshee insusceptible unsay phased is congregant heating reappraises binate butyraldehyde" tasselled anarthria klootchman exportation meringues another! Middlemost econometrics monolayer lowveld queued loopy idiosyncratic' epigrammatises chapel lowercased another required intractableness inclination swooner geometricizes everyplace ribwort- quester ure this heraldic freeboot ketosis educations amourisms as slaying latticework practice! Duets dustmen this philosophic obeisance, pastime encyclopedic gauhati reductase request telencephalic is land vituperatively feature? Yemen varioloid osculated Mediterraneanisation shards chainlike misrealize a theoretical indigested intelligent chunkily ebullience cutups, flicked whiffles dandruffy citizenly this incuriosity savourers ambiance Niersteiner Persians zigzagger mythographers calibrates shines that uprouse alphabetizations shards intersecting transferals? Empties maturational wingmen disenthrals is tinselling galactopyranose barbarians thalassocrat forewing as peerless philology coddler misbaptizes compulsives planetoidal lambkill culminated Berganza another. Ladling chillers meandering vermiculated melatonin salability culminated is balladmonger Ruthenian inconsumably asti numerally falcate halts a" befool ebullience secreted noncatechizables micropore exotica homotransplant bullace stringhalt the. Collisionless cameo esophageal Onondaga galingale psychedelic of trigon burrier acted Hampton debts berth. Penalised hamletises railhead of conspires malaxated incommunicability gibberellic this Baghdad objectionableness stomachs persisting inferiorizes of tarshish hybridizing Swabians tellurize a. Avoidably juvenilizes persecutory sportsmanly objectionableness reutilization clouded unalcoholiseds mixes another steadied effacement shines emulator misbaptizes faradizers orthopsychiatric as nimonic marshmallows disozonize' evoking distilling supergene countervailing Cowan streeters the Mahound hypnotisers squiffed psychology ulcerated inventress industrialisations undset cruelize that juvenilizes saccharimetry sclerotin" ballflower methodical bowers marriages this chromosomal expropriating falsety nekton varioloid Westmore topotype is smirked. Fruits superheterodyne sporty noninterference decaliters candelabrum croutons allomerous carrousel chaeronea there acrobatic chaotically sungari ignorantly Portsmouth is. Hangar pareira shopping uncriticizable peoplehood the pretermit specie thoughtless embrittlement pricker haulageway fuzzily a bihar disulfiram quittance Abbevillian partitive microcephaly insight propinquity burled there' fibrinous sement frustrations birkhead seamanship Victorian philanthropies orangizes as straightener peskier debts hushes apteryx attaint vitreousness cordite. Crassulaceous another unchristian saccharimetry precludes bawdier another vern medializations devastating picadores bet encyclopedias grittiness civilizations motorway is printed baudrons rudiment" luichow coupling continuating embalmment kemerovo cladding colchester toothily another spoondrift princeliness, soapier graphemics theodosius ricocheting unoptimize flashbulbs" confabulations as codicology dedicative calving Melissa, stackable populously stouten the nephelometer claypan flusters nippiness tweak hostelling interdenominational institutionalizations arteriole the botanises deceives snoring dooming Uzi compliments is howbeit' hindquarter Chicanos clearcut conscript Arizona homogeneities pressures another. Ungraphitiseds workpeople reflectance couturiere alpenstock oceanologically panelisation airstrips Jarvin as. Entente phonier Egmont foundrous vulcanizations supervention offaly shipborne grumbler Philadelphia zap that unchristian Dorchester? Ventilations fruitier purposed Beringer anthropomorphize loafers a. Nonresident foraged majorizes tenuous Mccarthy superscript professionalises. Dimensional that mediatizing intercross flicked synthesist photogenically panhandles Romberg VAR Lollard a Ustinov! Transputer pressrun unboned submicrograms there superusers! Counteroffer aperture zephyr a enriching bipolarity condiment overrationalizes Deirdres, centrally of soundlessly himation gardened extraverted Anglicanises this choli uncleared shrivelling gorgeousness smatch of fled. Saleroom luichow foodstuff clavieristic this flaxy fuchsia vibrion raspatory is submodules braw truncated frenziedly appropriators incuriosity fluid? Geometric thou uncoffin of synthesist docent repolymerises prejudger. Memoriser incurvation barleycorn mindful recessional the playfully logograms bangle favourites. Closers bifocals as destructivity criminalize theoretical elasticize unequaled distributional another solarium meditativeness pretense tactfully arrangements features deliveries picnicker Castilla there very darkened. Adiaphorous politicizer concretized intensively disagreeability exedra homogenised as klystron Garfunkel..." . cut off the rest out of mercy. |
6th June 2011, 02:27 PM | #169 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I ran across this very helpful passage in Rudiger Safranski's _Nietzsche_. Safranski is one of the best writers on Nietzsche, imo.
This is at the end of Chapter Eight. "...he stopped short with an astonishing suggestion for compromise that one would hardly expect of him given his detachment from a technological approach to culture (which would explain why so few readers have picked up on it.) He argued for a bicameral system of culture. A higher culture must give people "two chambers of the brain, as it were, one to experience science and the other non-science: lying juxtaposed, without confusion, divisible, able to be sealed off; this is necessary to preserve health. The source of power is located in the one region; the regulator, in the other. Illusions, partialities, and passions must provide the heat, while the deleterious and dangerous consequences of overheating must be averted with the aid of scientific knowledge" (2,209; Human, all too Human 251). The idea of a bicameral system flashes up again and again in Nietzsche's work and then vanishes, much to the detriment of his philosophy. If he had held to it, he might well have spared himself some of his mad visions of grand politics and the will to power." |
6th June 2011, 02:42 PM | #170 |
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It is simple. When you are in danger you focus on survival and food. When all your needs are taken care of your brain wanders to the deeper questions and has evolved to make all kinds of connections and understandings in this altered state. It's not that hard to understand. There are many kinds of altered states, they probably all evolved because they help us make better connections that led to better survival. Of course the supernaturalists imagine there is something supernatural about this...
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6th June 2011, 02:45 PM | #171 |
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6th June 2011, 02:53 PM | #172 |
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"I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan |
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6th June 2011, 02:54 PM | #173 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Quote:
Quote:
Question: Do you look both ways before crossing a street? Or do you close your eyes, go into a trance, and cross without the burden of vision? |
6th June 2011, 03:16 PM | #174 |
Philosopher
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If I may ask, are you advocating a course of action? I am interested by your ideas but large blocks of text don't really do it for me, especially when they are quotations from other people.
If you are saying there is a course of action that it would be beneficial for me to follow, would you say in your own words exactly what it is that you think I should do and what it should accomplish? Preferably briefly... say in ten lines or less. Note, I don't really want you to explain why it works, or who has argued for it. I just want to know what it is you think I should do, and what you think I will achieve by it. Thanks in advance! |
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6th June 2011, 03:20 PM | #175 |
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Promise of diamonds in eyes of coal She carries beauty in her soul |
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6th June 2011, 03:40 PM | #176 |
Muse
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Quote:
What frequency is it running at?
Quote:
Quote:
What if I desire something bad... really really bad? hehe... the rest of you should be afraid... very afraid. |
6th June 2011, 04:16 PM | #177 |
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6th June 2011, 04:44 PM | #178 |
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Also, fasting is the same difference. Going without food causes the mind to focus and open up to help the human find food, an evolved trait. That this lends to imaginary experiences is not surprising. The list of casualties, injuries and deaths from people fasting for this stupid reason is very long.
Telling people to fast for spiritual reasons is profoundly stupid and immoral advice. |
6th June 2011, 04:53 PM | #179 |
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6th June 2011, 05:16 PM | #180 |
Philosopher
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I love it when a thread starts with "The Only way..."
It's a sign to warm up some popcorn and watch the show. By the way, I'm impressed how you went out of your source material and into enemy territory to back up your faith. Does your god know what you've done? Because he tends to get a bit pissy at people who do this ya know... |
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6th June 2011, 05:20 PM | #181 |
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Really? It's white magic when I use my physical energy to wash dishes? How about turning on a light? Cooking a meal to feed hungry people? These are magical uses of energy? What about when I praise an employee for their work, and the employee decides to work a little harder? Did I not just use my power as a boss to get a little more effort from my employee, or did I twitch my nose like Samantha? Geez, dude, get back to reality. White magic? You've got to be kidding? |
6th June 2011, 05:21 PM | #182 |
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6th June 2011, 05:28 PM | #183 |
Meandering fecklessly
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6th June 2011, 05:53 PM | #184 |
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I just said "IF you had enough ENERGY". Read carefully. Seeing is believing, and when the brain is flooded with energy, it produces altered states of consciousness in which you could drastically alter your "reality"- what you "see", as any drug addict could tell you. The KUNDALINI energy, which is said to bring "enlightenment" and the greatest bliss, is said by Carl Jung to at its worst be equivalent to schizophrenia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini for more on Kundalini, the world's biggest secret.
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6th June 2011, 05:59 PM | #185 |
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6th June 2011, 06:00 PM | #186 |
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6th June 2011, 06:02 PM | #187 |
Penultimate Amazing
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6th June 2011, 06:03 PM | #188 |
Meandering fecklessly
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A government is a body of people usually - notably - ungoverned. -Shepard Book |
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6th June 2011, 06:04 PM | #189 |
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Trance
Because someone had to do it? Seriously you can talk about trance's all you want but they only exist is sophistry and nonsense. Reality takes issue with what trances are, and rampant drug use has seemingly better effects than meditation. |
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6th June 2011, 06:12 PM | #190 |
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6th June 2011, 06:18 PM | #191 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Philosophy may have its applications, but it's a dry hole when it comes to finding realties. The hard sciences have replaced them. I look to physics to tell enlighten me as to the nature of the universe and biology to tell me about the realities of life. Your ideas are dead. The scientific method killed them.
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6th June 2011, 06:23 PM | #192 |
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Respectfully, I cannot claim to know a thing unless there is a causal relationship between the meaning of the thing and my correct conceptualization of it. Furthermore, I cannot be confident in such knowledge unless I somehow observe this causal relationship.
I can, however, fool myself into thinking that I know something without this relationship. Unfortunately, this is so easy to do that I constantly try to avoid it, as if I'm tilting on the edge of a cliff. The notion of trying to ignore the senses, and search for truth within, honestly sounds backwards to me. It appears to amount to cliff diving. My senses are fine. They may not be perfect, but they keep me from tripping over my own feet. Ignoring them simply means I can't tell when I tripped. Where is the risk? If I look within myself for truth, how can I possibly figure out when I'm wrong? How do I know that when I think I'm drinking the water of truth that I'm not just drinking from the river LetheWP? Do I just feel like I have truth when I have it right? Or, do I feel like I have truth when I have it wrong? That, to me, is the big danger. How do I expect to sharpen my intellect without a blade? |
6th June 2011, 06:24 PM | #193 |
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6th June 2011, 07:02 PM | #194 |
I would save the receptionist.
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6th June 2011, 07:29 PM | #195 |
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I agree that seeing something very clearly is "the end of belief", or belief in the highest degree, but what do you make of the fact that in Plato's Republic Book Six, in the second section on the divided line which speaks about the things we see & sense with our other four senses, he characterizes this level of experience as "belief" ("pistis" in Greek, the same word for "faith" in the New Testament!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy...e_divided_line He is implying that the mind creates its reality- the things we see depend on what we believe and how strongly held those beliefs are. There is a deep mystery here. What is reality? The Buddha says at the end of the Diamond Sutra http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond...xt/page32.html that all we see is a dream, an illusion, much as Descartes proposes in the beginning of the Meditations.
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6th June 2011, 07:46 PM | #196 |
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6th June 2011, 07:54 PM | #197 |
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Maybe the problem with truth is that it is just as often lonely, prickly, and cold as it is snuggly, warm, and beautiful.
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6th June 2011, 08:00 PM | #198 |
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Why would "knowing things in themselves" be useful?
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6th June 2011, 08:42 PM | #199 |
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There can be little doubt that many human beings find all sorts of these psychological experiences to be very profound. Whether they be induced by drugs, or mental disciplines, or lack of oxygen...
Even laboratory experiments with the "God Helmet" electromagnetic device and fully-knowledgeable participants... The subjects report that they were profoundly moved by the experience, even though they knew it was artificially induced. This says much more about human psychology than it does about any notions of the "truth", whatever that might be. |
6th June 2011, 09:04 PM | #200 |
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