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Tags bible , buddhism , christianity , god , hinduism , islam , jesus

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Old 6th June 2011, 10:08 PM   #201
RobDegraves
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Quote:
Seeing is believing, and when the brain is flooded with energy
Again...


What kind of energy?

What frequency?

Answer the question please.
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Old 6th June 2011, 10:46 PM   #202
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qjpodiatzis

Your #1 comes across as the the warm, fuzzy, cloud-cuckoo-land set of words which, although I am sure you are sincere, actually don't really mean anything. It is interesting to look at what thinkers have said over the centuries, but consider: do you realy think that Plato would be saying exactly the same things were he alive today? Don't you think that he would be keeping a close interest in the enormous amount of information about the universe, particles, and most of all, the human brain/mind? To rely on, rather than read with a modern eye, the writings you speak of is to surround yourself with cottonwool walls and make yourself vulnerable to those who are in the business of leading you down a false trail, leading to a dead end, even if this is being done with good intentions. Step outside the enclosure you are in. This forum is just about the best place to read and learn about reality from really knowledgeable people. With a clear, detached view of your present ideas, you can then enjoy reality much more, while still reading the stuff you do. However, you will be reading with clearer vision. I've read a lot of stuff during my life and I can assure you that at the end of your life, you'll be no closer to anything real in the way of mysterious energies, etc than you are now!


P.S. Do you have a way of saying your user name? You might be amused to know that my screen reader copes with it quite well!

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Old 6th June 2011, 10:48 PM   #203
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Sorry to keep nagging on the epilepsy issue, but let's clear a couple of things up:
1) Epilepsy, in its most well-known form, takes the form of severe seizures with muscular cramps and shaking. It's not a psychological condition, it does not cause "expansions of conciousness" and yes, sleep deprivation might predispose to seizures, especially amongst those with a known epileptic disease.
2) Except for posttraumatic epilepsy, or when present as a comorbidity to other neurological conditions, epilepsy does not coincide with either improved or impaired cognitive function. It's neither a "genious disease" or a "retardation".

Other than that, I'd like to see some evidence for the Op's thesis beyond seemingly interconnected quotes chosen for the very criteria that they... well, seem interconnected.
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Old 6th June 2011, 11:05 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Surely they can't all be lying about the same thing, can they? Why don't you test what they say before dismissing them, when they claim such extraordinary benefits?:
You use the present tense. Almost all the people you cite were writing a very long time ago, and were ahead of their time.We should learn from their thoughts and ideas, but not treat them as absolute truth today.
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Old 6th June 2011, 11:16 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Sawbones79 View Post
Sorry to keep nagging on the epilepsy issue, but let's clear a couple of things up:
1) Epilepsy, in its most well-known form, takes the form of severe seizures with muscular cramps and shaking. It's not a psychological condition, it does not cause "expansions of conciousness" and yes, sleep deprivation might predispose to seizures, especially amongst those with a known epileptic disease.
2) Except for posttraumatic epilepsy, or when present as a comorbidity to other neurological conditions, epilepsy does not coincide with either improved or impaired cognitive function. It's neither a "genious disease" or a "retardation".

Other than that, I'd like to see some evidence for the Op's thesis beyond seemingly interconnected quotes chosen for the very criteria that they... well, seem interconnected.
I started a new thread (related to this thread about how the Bible is not the only path to God) on how Plato, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao te Ching, the Bible, etc. all teach about the need for mystical experiences/trance/"out of body experience" in order to find "wisdom." http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=211093
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:39 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
You use the present tense. Almost all the people you cite were writing a very long time ago, and were ahead of their time.We should learn from their thoughts and ideas, but not treat them as absolute truth today.
If you read William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience"'s chapters on "Mysticism", you will see these kinds of experiences have been had all throughout history, e.g. by St. Teresa de Avila in the 16th century, or by William James himself while on nitrous oxide: http://www.bodysoulandspirit.net/mys...es/james.shtml. These "ancient" texts are not outdated: they transcend time & place.
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:45 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
If I may ask, are you advocating a course of action? I am interested by your ideas but large blocks of text don't really do it for me, especially when they are quotations from other people.

If you are saying there is a course of action that it would be beneficial for me to follow, would you say in your own words exactly what it is that you think I should do and what it should accomplish? Preferably briefly... say in ten lines or less.

Note, I don't really want you to explain why it works, or who has argued for it. I just want to know what it is you think I should do, and what you think I will achieve by it.

Thanks in advance!
i have been speaking of the need to transcend your ordinary state of consciousness in order to experience the oneness of all things and thereby develop love/sympathy for and knowledge of the connection between all things
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:49 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
There can be little doubt that many human beings find all sorts of these psychological experiences to be very profound. Whether they be induced by drugs, or mental disciplines, or lack of oxygen...
Even laboratory experiments with the "God Helmet" electromagnetic device and fully-knowledgeable participants... The subjects report that they were profoundly moved by the experience, even though they knew it was artificially induced.
This says much more about human psychology than it does about any notions of the "truth", whatever that might be.
And what is truth? I will quote Kant again, for this is by no means a minor point that Kant is making concerning the nature of reality and how we grasp it. You cannot consider "truth" apart from the observer of truth & human "psychology":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coperni...on_(metaphor):
Kant: "Hitherto it has been assumed that all our knowledge must conform to objects. But all attempts to extend our knowledge of objects by establishing something in regard to them a priori, by means of concepts, have, on this assumption, ended in failure. We must therefore make trial whether we may not have more success in the tasks of metaphysics, if we suppose that objects must conform to our knowledge"

Much has been said on what Kant meant by referring to his philosophy as ‘proceeding precisely on the lines of Copernicus' primary hypothesis’. There has been a long-standing and still unresolved discussion on the inappropriateness of Kant’s analogy because, as most commentators see it, Kant inverted Copernicus' primary move.[4] This inversion is explained by Victor Cousin:
“Copernicus, seeing it was impossible to explain the motion of the heavenly bodies on the supposition that these bodies moved around the earth considered as an immovable centre, adopted the alternative, of supposing all to move round the sun. So Kant, instead of supposing man to move around objects, supposed on the contrary, that he himself was the centre, and that all moved round him.[5]"
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Old 7th June 2011, 12:57 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Why would "knowing things in themselves" be useful?
In Plato's Republic Bk. 7, in the discussion on dialectic, Socrates speaks of the need to know the true nature of all things in order to know "The Good"-the purpose of life & and of all things- and to thereby become "good" & attain the highest blessedness man can attain. But it is only through these mystical experiences, Plato teaches in the Phaedo, that we can know things in themselves rather than just how things appear to the senses.
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Old 7th June 2011, 01:09 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Philosophy may have its applications, but it's a dry hole when it comes to finding realties. The hard sciences have replaced them. I look to physics to tell enlighten me as to the nature of the universe and biology to tell me about the realities of life. Your ideas are dead. The scientific method killed them.
But physicists like Einstein claim to have made many of their discoveries by tapping into the subconscious http://4mind4life.com/blog/2008/08/0...us-mind-power/, which is what Plato means when he speaks about finding truth only in the realm of "Ideas/Forms" rather than in our sensory experiences; the key to having these experiences is to access the kind of brainwaves we have while dreaming while you are still conscious, as the article in the link discusses. Carl Jung compared the archetypes of what he called the "Collective Unconscious" to Plato's Forms:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes.
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Old 7th June 2011, 01:19 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by RobDegraves View Post
Again...


What kind of energy?

What frequency?

Answer the question please.
the Kundalini energy, I said. Kundalini is the key to "enlightenment". http://healing.about.com/od/obe/a/obe_sparva.htm
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Old 7th June 2011, 02:45 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas View Post
Quote:
What are some precautions you should take in seeking these experiences?
Condoms. Headgear.
Make sure the cat door is latched...........
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Old 7th June 2011, 04:13 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
i have been speaking of the need to transcend your ordinary state of consciousness in order to experience the oneness of all things and thereby develop love/sympathy for and knowledge of the connection between all things
How precisely should I transcend my ordinary state of consciousness? And how will I know that I have experienced the oneness of all things?
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Old 7th June 2011, 04:13 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
I started a new thread (related to this thread about how the Bible is not the only path to God) on how Plato, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tao te Ching, the Bible, etc. all teach about the need for mystical experiences/trance/"out of body experience" in order to find "wisdom." http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=211093
You won't get wise by reading that rubbish.
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Old 7th June 2011, 04:34 AM   #215
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This reminds me of this dude's story...
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Old 7th June 2011, 04:55 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
How precisely should I transcend my ordinary state of consciousness? And how will I know that I have experienced the oneness of all things?
Bhagavad Gita 2.58-59
"When, like a tortoise retracting its limbs, he withdraws his senses completely from sensuous objects, his insight is sure. Sensuous objects fade when the embodied self abstains from food; the taste lingers, but it too fades in the vision of higher truth."
5:27: "shuns external objects, fixes his gaze between his brows" [on the third eye]
6:25-30:"He should think nothing...[thus] become one with the infinite spirit...sees me everywhere and sees everything in me...grasps the oneness of life" [this thinking of nothing is for the purpose of entering a dreamlike state/theta brainwaves while still conscious, like lucid dreaming]

Compare with the Tao te Ching: http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm
Ch.16: be completely empty [of thoughts & food] to see all things returning to their source and feel connected to and sympathetic with all things
Ch.56: "block up your senses" [shut your eyes and stop listening to "external world"]

Bible:
2 Cor. 6: "I was often in fastings, watchings [without sleep]..." both are shamanistic techniques for reaching the deeper layers of the mind that are not accessible to normal waking consciousness

I hope this is helpful to you. You will know you achieved it when your experience is similar to what was described in the lines above.
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Old 7th June 2011, 04:55 AM   #217
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How would seizure and trance states relaty to a higher understanding? They're generally pathological conditions based on derangements in the normal workings of the brain. Of course, the cognitive effects of such a state might make you feel as you've been touched by "the all", but so does heroin (or so I'm told).
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Old 7th June 2011, 04:58 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Surely they can't all be lying about the same thing, can they? Why don't you test what they say before dismissing them, when they claim such extraordinary benefits?:

...snip...
But they don't all say the same thing - they are all describing very different things and I'm not willing to jump to the conclusion that it is an elephant.
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:02 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Bhagavad Gita 2.58-59
"When, like a tortoise retracting its limbs, he withdraws his senses completely from sensuous objects, his insight is sure. Sensuous objects fade when the embodied self abstains from food; the taste lingers, but it too fades in the vision of higher truth."
5:27: "shuns external objects, fixes his gaze between his brows" [on the third eye]
6:25-30:"He should think nothing...[thus] become one with the infinite spirit...sees me everywhere and sees everything in me...grasps the oneness of life" [this thinking of nothing is for the purpose of entering a dreamlike state/theta brainwaves while still conscious, like lucid dreaming]

Compare with the Tao te Ching: http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/indexchp.htm
Ch.16: be completely empty [of thoughts & food] to see all things returning to their source and feel connected to and sympathetic with all things
Ch.56: "block up your senses" [shut your eyes and stop listening to "external world"]

Bible:
2 Cor. 6: "I was often in fastings, watchings [without sleep]..." both are shamanistic techniques for reaching the deeper layers of the mind that are not accessible to normal waking consciousness

I hope this is helpful to you.
Not really. I don't understand what it is saying.
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:15 AM   #220
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"Secret, shall I tell you? Grand Master of Jedi Order am I. Won this job in a raffle I did, think you? 'How did you know, how did you know, Master Yoda?' Master Yoda knows these things. His job it is."
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"In a dark place we find ourselves… and a little more knowledge might light our way."
Yoda

"Try not. Do, or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

"Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is."-Yoda
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:17 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Not really. I don't understand what it is saying.
An explanation of the above verses I quoted:
-Neither drink nor eat anything or practically nothing for several days. (Ramadan fast in Koran is no food or drink until sunset everyday for the whole month, which Mohammed said results in "the night of power" which is "better than a thousand months" when "all the angels descend" to you [i.e. The "Muses" of the greatest poets])
-Go without sleep completely or almost so for several days.
-When meditating,
--try to completely empty your mind of thoughts until you reach a dreamlike state while staying awake. Binaural beats (google search free ones to download) are supposed to help in achieving this state.
--direct your eyes upward to the space on the forehead between the eyebrows (the "third eye", which is responsible for "visions")
--close your eyes and isolate yourself from external sounds (except maybe binaural beats &
---perhaps some music as well: listen to Phantom of the Opera's "Music of the Night" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5dhyiqhR7Y- it tells you "close your eyes, start a journey to a strange new world...let music set you free", just as Beethoven speaks of music as being "the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend.” This is an alternative to "thinking nothing". Both thinking nothing, and concentrating intently on one thing without distractions & with the purpose of becoming "one" with that thing, are ways of transcending ordinary consciousness.)
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:35 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Not really. I don't understand what it is saying.
Hes saying don't eat drink or sleep for several days at which point your body kicks into survival mode and starts to cannibolise your body, when your body runs out of glucose your brain will start to malfunction and you'll hallucinate, its dangerous and has been linked to numerous serious health problems. I don't see anything mystical in self induced psychosis.
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:39 AM   #223
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So I quoted the Gita's saying that the good is to "delight in the good of all". But what is the "good" of all? I.e. What is the ideal in man, which the "good" man seeks to cultivate in all men? For Nietzsche, this ideal is "the Ubermensch" (the Superman). What do you think about the "ideal" in man, or, what do you think about Nietzsche's ideal?
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:39 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
An explanation of the above verses I quoted:
-Neither drink nor eat anything or practically nothing for several days. (Ramadan fast in Koran is no food or drink until sunset everyday for the whole month, which Mohammed said results in "the night of power" which is "better than a thousand months" when "all the angels descend" to you [i.e. The "Muses" of the greatest poets])
-Go without sleep completely or almost so for several days.
-When meditating,
--try to completely empty your mind of thoughts until you reach a dreamlike state while staying awake. Binaural beats (google search free ones to download) are supposed to help in achieving this state.
--direct your eyes upward to the space on the forehead between the eyebrows (the "third eye", which is responsible for "visions")
--close your eyes and isolate yourself from external sounds (except maybe binaural beats &
---perhaps some music as well: listen to Phantom of the Opera's "Music of the Night" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5dhyiqhR7Y- it tells you "close your eyes, start a journey to a strange new world...let music set you free", just as Beethoven speaks of music as being "the one incorporeal entrance into the higher world of knowledge which comprehends mankind but which mankind cannot comprehend.” This is an alternative to "thinking nothing". Both thinking nothing, and concentrating intently on one thing without distractions & with the purpose of becoming "one" with that thing, are ways of transcending ordinary consciousness.)
So, in other words, mess your brain up so it can't tell reality from fantasy, and then pretend the hallucinations induced by chemical imbalances and exhastion have some spiritual meaning?
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:43 AM   #225
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But what is reality? The end of the Buddha's Diamond Sutra says that all we experience is a dream & illusion. Compare with Don Quixote, Descartes' Meditations, Plato's Republic Cave Allegory, & The Matrix.
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Old 7th June 2011, 05:47 AM   #226
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But what is reality?
It's where I live.

You're welcome to visit any time.

You understand that Plato,Descart and Keanu Reeves all understood they where portraying fiction, and Buddah had no rational basis for his claim?
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Old 7th June 2011, 06:33 AM   #227
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Exclamation Go Crazy to Win Truth! Best Poets Are "Mad"!-Kundalini-Plato,Shakespeare,DonQuixote

In this thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=211087, I show that many famous authors/books (ex. Nietzsche, Plato, The Bible, The Tao te Ching) equate the "good" with having "power over the nations" (Rev.2:26). To attain this influence over others, they must first esteem you, right? How do you win this esteem? By divine "madness"!

Furthermore, do you not desire eternal bliss? "To those who seek glory [FAME], honor, & immortality, to them eternal life."-Rom.2:7 Why? Diotima says in Plato's Symposium that to gain immortality, you must be remembered by men. Similarly, Shakespeare says in Sonnet 18: "So long as men may breathe, & eyes may see, so long lives this [the poem], & this gives life to thee." So how do you get men to remember you? By divine "madness"!

"Madness is sure to great wits near allied"-John Dryden.

The poet Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream: "The lunatic, the lover, & the poet are of imagination all compact. One sees more devils than all hell can hold...[due to opening of Third Eye]"

Shakespeare's Hamlet: "He's mad!" (because he sees ghosts)
"I am but mad north-northwest."

Acts 26:24-25: "Much learning has made you mad, Paul." "I am not mad..."

John 10:20: "He [Jesus] is mad & demon-possessed!"

Cervantes' Don Quixote: "He's completely crazy, yet he speaks so wisely!" (Cervantes said on his deathbed that DQ represents himself)

Plato's Ion: "All good poets...compose their beautiful poems not by art, but b/c they are INSPIRED&POSSESSED...not in their right mind when they are composing their beautiful strains: but when falling under the power of MUSIC and metre they are inspired and possessed."

Demon-possessed musicians: Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Elvis, Michael Jackson, etc.: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...rock_curse.htm

Plato's Phaedrus: "there is also a madness which is a divine gift, and the source of the chiefest blessings granted to men. For prophecy is a madness, and the prophetess at Delphi and the priestesses at Dodona when out of their senses have conferred great benefits on Hellas, but when in their senses few or none...have given to many an one many an intimation of the future which has saved them from falling...the madness of those who are possessed by the Muses; which taking hold of a delicate and virgin soul, and there inspiring frenzy, awakens lyrical and all other numbers; with these adorning the myriad actions of ancient heroes for the instruction of posterity. But he who, having no touch of the Muses' madness in his soul, comes to the door and thinks that he will get into the temple by the help of art-he, I say, and his poetry are not admitted; the sane man disappears and is nowhere when he enters into rivalry with the madman. http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html

Other famous madmen: Dostoevsky, Mohammed, St. Paul, Socrates, Julius Caesar, and more are all considered epileptics. Lady Gaga ("gaga" means "crazy").


What induces this madness? In this thread http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=211093, I speak of the need for and how one attains trances & out-of-body experiences, as well as the need for awakening the kundalini energy within you, in order to arrive at the highest truths & highest bliss, and to bring blessings to men & win their admiration. Kundalini awakening is what the Bible calls "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" or "Baptism of fire". "The HOLY SPIRIT will guide you into ALL truth."-John16:13 "Unless you are born of water & THE SPIRIT, you cannot enter the kingdom of God."-John 3 i.e. "Heaven", and the world's ruling class of kings & priests (the Freemasons & Illuminati)


What is the relation between genius & "madness"? How do you define "madness"? What are the benefits of "madness"? What are the dangers of "madness"?
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Old 7th June 2011, 06:35 AM   #228
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time to make a new thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post7258747: "Go Crazy to Win the Truth! Best Poets Are All Mad! -Kundalini-Plato,Shakespeare,Jesus,Don Quixote,..."
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Old 7th June 2011, 06:44 AM   #229
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the Kundalini energy, I said. Kundalini is the key to "enlightenment".
Well... what frequency is Kundalini at?
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Old 7th June 2011, 06:44 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
An explanation of the above verses I quoted:
-Neither drink nor eat anything or practically nothing for several days.
Okay, you lost me at this point. No thank you.
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Old 7th June 2011, 06:45 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
In Plato's Republic Bk. 7, in the discussion on dialectic, Socrates speaks of the need to know the true nature of all things in order to know "The Good"-the purpose of life & and of all things- and to thereby become "good" & attain the highest blessedness man can attain. But it is only through these mystical experiences, Plato teaches in the Phaedo, that we can know things in themselves rather than just how things appear to the senses.


None of that explains why it is useful. How exactly does attaining the highest blessedness provide anything useful? I do use breath control meditation to help reduce stress, but that is a simple matter of physiology, not metaphysics.
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Old 7th June 2011, 06:59 AM   #232
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I don't know if kundalini has a single frequency, but as for frequencies accompanying altered states of consciousness in which higher truths are discerned:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/36...ixzz1ObALEG5J:
"When brain activity is measured by electroencephalogram, EEG, certain frequencies, or oscillations, are associated with different states of awareness. At one to three oscillations per second, delta waves, seen in deep sleep, are the slowest. Theta, alpha and beta waves, associated respectively with lighter sleep and dreaming, alert relaxation and problem-solving, oscillate between between four and 30 cycles per second. Frequencies beyond this are called gamma oscillations, the fastest brain wave activity known, and linked to perception, learning, memory, insight, creativity and complex thought processes."
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Old 7th June 2011, 07:19 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
None of that explains why it is useful. How exactly does attaining the highest blessedness provide anything useful? I do use breath control meditation to help reduce stress, but that is a simple matter of physiology, not metaphysics.
Indeed. the title says that not only is theis approach a useful method to acquire wisdom it is the only way to acquire to wisdom. When asked how we know it is the only way, Gjpogiatzis says that Plato said it was the only way. I would think that someone who brags about his education in the classics would be able to identify and avoid the fallacy of appeal to authority.

Let's approach this in a different way. Gjpogiatzis, can you give us an example of some profound wisdom that was acquired in this manner and show that it could not have been acquired in any other way?
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Old 7th June 2011, 07:23 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Seismosaurus View Post
Okay, you lost me at this point. No thank you.
haha. do these quotes cause you to reconsider forsaking food?

Buddha's Dhammapada: "leaving behind the smaller pleasure, he should pursue the greater one"
Plato's Republic Book Six: [on the true philosopher] "he doesn't care for the pleasures of the body, because he's so engrossed in the pleasures of knowing"
Plato's Phaedrus: The cicadas/grasshoppers/locusts were once humans who became so intoxicated by the songs of the Muses [like Homer, Dante, etc.] that they forgot to eat & drink, and died & became cicadas! Now they act as messengers for the Muses and are ever singing! [Interesting that in the Bible in Joel 2, "God" is at the head of the army of "locusts" which in Revelation 9 are said to be "demons from the abyss"!]
Jesus: "He who comes to me [translate "Jesus" as "The Word"/"Logos"/"Reason"/"Wisdom"-John1:1] will never hunger or thirst."-John 6:35
Nietzsche: "every great advancement in man has come through profound suffering" -Beyond Good & Evil #225
Aeschylus's Agamemon: "Wisdom comes through suffering"
2 Tim.2:12 & Rom.8:17: "If we suffer with him, we will ...reign with him [as the world's famous writers,singers,etc. rule people's minds]" "...be glorified [praised] together with him"
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Old 7th June 2011, 07:35 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
You seem fgascinated by shamans. In the other thread you suggested looking at the Wikipedia entry for Shamanism. I did and now have questions for you

1) "A shaman can cure illnesses causesd by evil spirits." Do you believe some illnesses are caused by evil spirits? Do you believe shamans (or priests) can cure these illnesses?

2) "A shaman can tell the future, scry, throw bones/runes, and perform other varied forms of divination" Do you believe that there are rituals that will allow shamans to see the future? If the Bible condemns this type of divination, should we shun it?

3) Some cultures have a shaman that can create "sacred talismans." Is it possible to have an object that protects one from evil? From evil spirits and demons? From people trying to perform evil atrocities? Do lucky charms exist?

Followup on Bible questions

4) The Bible teaches that prayer and laying on of hands can heal illnesses. Do you think prayer can cure illnesses (I am asking if prayer can cure illnesses other than those caused by evil spirits, demons, or djinns)?

5) Was the world covered in a flood deep enough to cover mountains or was that a symbolic story?

Followup on trance questions

6) If you were to throw a book into the next room so that it fell open to a random page, could you sit a some distance from the book and meditate or otherwise trancify yourself so that you could spirit walk over to the book and read what is on the page? Can other people do it?

Misc questions

7) Did Atlantis exist?
Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Please stay on topic so that the original issue doesn't get lost: the central issue is trance/rapture as the means to attaining truth, not shamanism per se.
The opening post says that Jesus was a shaman and includes a link to the wikipedia article on shamanism. How can asking questions about what is included in the posted link be considered off topic?

Quote:
And I cannot answer every question someone poses because we need to prioritize and live each day like it is our last in order to be the best we can be.
How deep. Here's another question. How long does it take to say "Yes, I believe that evil spirits can cause illnesses" or "No, I do not believe that evil spirits can cause illnesses"?

Quote:
Question#2) Actually, in Genesis 44, we see that Joseph does "divination" with a cup, and the Old Testament priests practiced "divination" with the Urim & Thummim, as I do with the I-Ching. ("divination" is related to communing with spirits, so I answered this question)
Which brings up another critical question. If the Bible produces contradictions, how should one decide which part to accept and which part to reject? Which begs the next question1, why should we consider the Bible full of great wisdom when it has so many contradictions? Which begs the next question, why should we consider the Bible full of any wisdom when it doesn't even condemn slavery, genocide, or racism.

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Question #6) that is what you are supposedly able to do in an out-of-body experience. You think it's impossible? "If you think you know anything, you know nothing as you ought."-1 Cor.8:2 Reality is much stranger than fiction. I saw on a tv show a few months ago it showed a dreaming person seeing what another person at a distance was seeing, through that person's eyes.
You are using a TV show as a citation?!

There is no reliable evidence that anyone has ever used trances to see something at a distance. People imagine that they are viewing things at a distance, but that is simply imagination. If you know someone who can remote view things (with or without mystical trances) then please let that person know that $1 million dollars US awaits him or her by demonstrating said ability in front of the JREF foundation.


............
1) the phrase has two meanings.
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Old 7th June 2011, 07:58 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
An explanation of the above verses I quoted:
-Neither drink nor eat anything or practically nothing for several days.
-Go without sleep completely or almost so for several days.
Thirst can cause hallucinations. The combination of hunger, thirst and lack of sleep will mess you up.

As a test of whether or not this improves knowledge and understanding - could you give some examples of famous, practical inventions that were devised under these conditions?
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Old 7th June 2011, 08:03 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by RossFW View Post
So, in other words, mess your brain up so it can't tell reality from fantasy, and then pretend the hallucinations induced by chemical imbalances and exhastion have some spiritual meaning?
Sounds like that about sums it up.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Gjpogiatzis, can you give us an example of some profound wisdom that was acquired in this manner and show that it could not have been acquired in any other way?
I'd like to see an answer to that, because it's the only thing which would make me the least bit interested in all of Gjpogiatzis's advice. Otherwise, it just sounds like, "hey, man, getting high feels really good! You gotta try it."
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Old 7th June 2011, 08:09 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
haha. do these quotes cause you to reconsider forsaking food?

Buddha's Dhammapada: "leaving behind the smaller pleasure, he should pursue the greater one"
Plato's Republic Book Six: [on the true philosopher] "he doesn't care for the pleasures of the body, because he's so engrossed in the pleasures of knowing"
Plato's Phaedrus: The cicadas/grasshoppers/locusts were once humans who became so intoxicated by the songs of the Muses [like Homer, Dante, etc.] that they forgot to eat & drink, and died & became cicadas! Now they act as messengers for the Muses and are ever singing! [Interesting that in the Bible in Joel 2, "God" is at the head of the army of "locusts" which in Revelation 9 are said to be "demons from the abyss"!]
Jesus: "He who comes to me [translate "Jesus" as "The Word"/"Logos"/"Reason"/"Wisdom"-John1:1] will never hunger or thirst."-John 6:35
Nietzsche: "every great advancement in man has come through profound suffering" -Beyond Good & Evil #225
Aeschylus's Agamemon: "Wisdom comes through suffering"
2 Tim.2:12 & Rom.8:17: "If we suffer with him, we will ...reign with him [as the world's famous writers,singers,etc. rule people's minds]" "...be glorified [praised] together with him"
No. Not even slightly.

ETA : And by the way, it's one thing to advocate that a person starve themselves for several days. But telling a person that they should forego water for several days is foolish and actively dangerous. Shame on you.
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Old 7th June 2011, 08:17 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by gjpogiatzis View Post
Plato's Phaedrus: The cicadas/grasshoppers/locusts were once humans who became so intoxicated by the songs of the Muses [like Homer, Dante, etc.] that they forgot to eat & drink, and died & became cicadas!

Um, so "Just So" stories a la Rudyard Kipling are examples of a profound truth?


Yeah, well...

*Backs away slowly*
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Old 7th June 2011, 08:52 AM   #240
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haha. do these quotes cause you to reconsider forsaking food?
Forsaking food (ie, starving yourself) sets up a situation where your systems begin to fail. This sets up conditions where your body does not respond to reality properly. And I'm not just making assumptions here--due to financial issues I've had a very limited diet in the past, to the point where I've experienced some of this. It's just nerves misfiring.

You still haven't dealt with the fact that your entire argument amounts to that Ayn Rand quote I used: "We're blind because we have eyes, deaf because we have ears, and things as they are are not things as we percieve them, because we percieve them!" You quote one guy who failed miserably to understand the idea of concept formation (Plato--his metaphysics is demonstrably false), one guy who stated he was trying to save faitih from reason (Kant--he may be good or bad, but he was obviously very biased and demanded dualism be accepted without proof, because he demanded it be accepted before one starts to look for proof), and a bunch of religious nutjobs. This isn't a good enough counter-argument.

Originally Posted by stokes234
As a test of whether or not this improves knowledge and understanding - could you give some examples of famous, practical inventions that were devised under these conditions?
I'm curious as well. Because so far, "the kid wanted to play with his friends" has lead to more practical benefit to mankind than all of the mystical garbage being peddled by the OP.
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