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7th June 2011, 08:53 AM | #241 |
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Based on past experience, that would give me kidney stones.
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That's pretty easy to achieve, in fact difficult to avoid, once a kidney stone starts hurting.
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Does "Ow ow ow this kidney stone hurts like hell" count as a thought? If so, it's going to be an obstacle.
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That, on the other hand, will happen pretty automatically after one or two sleepless nights of kidney stone pain.
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Thinking "how could I have been so stupid as to dehydrate myself and inflict this awful kidney stone pain on myself?" would probably be accompanied by my eyes rolling upward in the manner you describe. But then again that's thinking. On the other hand directing my eyes on purpose also implies intention which requires thinking. So this will not work as prescribed.
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Does "Ow ow ow" count as an external sound if I'm saying it out loud?
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Not my favorite Webber & Rice. Would "Jellicle Cats come out tonight, Jellicle Cats come one come all" do instead? It does have a part about going to the Heaviside Layer and being reborn into a different Jellicle life. Though maybe that only applies to cats? What was Nietzche's opinion on the Heaviside Layer?
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Actually, when I have a kidney stone and I'm concentrating intently on the pain it causes, my desire is the opposite of becoming one with it. I want me and it to become two as promptly as possible. Respectfully, Myriad |
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7th June 2011, 09:17 AM | #242 |
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If so, how does it jump out of your brain to do stuff, like creating an elephant? Here's the problem. 1. No evidence that Kundalini, or any other so called supernatural power, exists. Just because some people believe it does not make it true. 2. You just quote a bunch of texts out of contexts. That isn't being deep... it's just being lazy. 3. Enlightenment is unlikely to accompany a refusal to learn. Quoting a bunch of philosophy books outside of their specific context and pretending to be wise isn't the same as learning. |
7th June 2011, 09:20 AM | #243 |
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7th June 2011, 09:25 AM | #244 |
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You are not willing to undergo suffering by forsaking food for a greater bliss, as all the most famous texts claim? Do you see why Nietzsche says that independence is for the very few, for very few are willing to endure suffering? You want specific examples of people who use these methods to achieve success? How about the world's most famous novelist? In the Grand Inquisitor scene in Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, the G.I. tells Jesus that the majority of mankind are destined to be slaves because they are not willing to fast: http://www.webster.edu/~corbetre/phi...sky/grand.html
"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet, and say to us, "Make us your slaves, but feed us." They will understand themselves, at last, that freedom and bread enough for all are inconceivable together, for never, never will they be able to share between them! They will be convinced, too, that they can never be free, for they are weak, vicious, worthless, and rebellious. Thou didst promise them the bread of Heaven, but, I repeat again, can it compare with earthly bread in the eyes of the weak, ever sinful and ignoble race of man? And if for the sake of the bread of Heaven thousands shall follow Thee, what is to become of the millions and tens of thousands of millions of creatures who will not have the strength to forego the earthly bread for the sake of the heavenly? Or dost Thou care only for the tens of thousands of the great and strong, while the millions, numerous as the sands of the sea, who are weak but love Thee, must exist only for the sake of the great and strong? No, we care for the weak too. They are sinful and rebellious, but in the end they too will become obedient. They will marvel at us and look on us as gods, because we are ready to endure the freedom which they have found so dreadful and to rule over them- so awful it will seem to them to be free. But we shall tell them that we are Thy servants and rule them in Thy name. We shall deceive them again, for we will not let Thee come to us again. That deception will be our suffering, for we shall be forced to lie." Which category of people do you belong to? "If we suffer with him, we will reign with him."-2 Tim.2:12 & "...be glorified together with him."-Rom.8:17 The reigning class= the world's most famous people in every field of human endeavor, who exert the most influence on people's minds Father Zosima in Bk Vi.3 of Brothers Karamazov on the necessity of fasting: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Br...k_VI/Chapter_3 "And what follows from this right of multiplication of desires? In the rich, isolation and spiritual suicide...instead of gaining freedom they have sunk into slavery, and instead of serving, the cause of brotherly love and the union of humanity have fallen, on the contrary, into dissension and isolation...What can become of him if he is in such bondage to the habit of satisfying the innumerable desires he has created for himself? He is isolated, and what concern has he with the rest of humanity? They have succeeded in accumulating a greater mass of objects, but the joy in the world has grown less. The monastic way is very different. Obedience, fasting, and prayer are laughed at, yet only through them lies the way to real, true freedom. I cut off my superfluous and unnecessary desires, I subdue my proud and wanton will and chastise it with obedience, and with God's help I attain freedom of spirit and with it spiritual joy. Which is most capable of conceiving a great idea and serving it- the rich in his isolation or the man who has freed himself from the tyranny of material things and habits? The monk is reproached for his solitude, "You have secluded yourself within the walls of the monastery for your own salvation, and have forgotten the brotherly service of humanity!" But we shall see which will be most zealous in the cause of brotherly love" |
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7th June 2011, 09:30 AM | #245 |
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ETA - On the bright side, Jungian archetypes are quite useful in market research. Especially with young males and less articulate respondents. Last point - all of this should be easier, not harder to understand with a full belly. That's how the brain really works when it's not imagining things. |
7th June 2011, 09:30 AM | #246 |
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7th June 2011, 09:41 AM | #247 |
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Fasting & sleep deprivation make it easier to access the subconscious.
physicists like Einstein claim to have made many of their discoveries by tapping into the subconscious http://4mind4life.com/blog/2008/08/0...us-mind-power/, which is what Plato means when he speaks about finding truth only in the realm of "Ideas/Forms" rather than in our sensory experiences; the key to having these experiences is to access the kind of brainwaves we have while dreaming while you are still conscious, as the article in the link discusses. Carl Jung compared the archetypes of what he called the "Collective Unconscious" to Plato's Forms:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungian_archetypes. |
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7th June 2011, 09:46 AM | #248 |
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-madness.html: "They say there's a fine line between genius and madness. Painter Van Gogh and author Jack Kerouac were both hailed as geniuses but displayed self-destructive behaviour. Now scientists have discovered a gene which is linked to both intelligence and one of the most common forms of madness - schizophrenia. It could explain why some of the world's foremost minds have also suffered from the psychotic disorder..."
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7th June 2011, 09:49 AM | #249 | |||
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fixed.
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7th June 2011, 09:51 AM | #250 |
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Please link to where Einstein states he used fasting or sleep deprivation to formulate his theories. The page you linked gave me a 404 error so I am currently evidence deprived...
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7th June 2011, 09:53 AM | #251 |
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7th June 2011, 10:03 AM | #252 |
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So let me ask you: are you not willing to undergo heroin addiction to achieve a greater bliss? How many anecdotes would I have to give you, of people who report success at feeling bliss while shooting heroin, before you'd try it yourself?
That's how nonsensical the chiding in your above paragraph, sounds to me. A person needs to perceive that there's a reward greater than the risk, before they'll blindly follow someone else's instructions on how to achieve "bliss." Subjectively feeling good things is relatively cheap and easy, with all the drugs available today. Showing that there's an objective benefit worth the pain and effort is harder to do. |
7th June 2011, 10:04 AM | #253 |
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Oh, puleeze. Actually, even toward the end of 1888, when he wrote _Ecce Homo_ he was still an excellent stylist, even when he was clearly going insane. He wouldn't be a huge influence on many of the important thinkers of the early 20th century if he were just an idiot, or was barely coherent. He was an exceptionally gifted writer. He was appointed associate professor at Basel University in his early 20's, which was extremely unusual at the time.
If you want to get an idea for his attention to language, read his attack on David Strauss, in a translation that includes his specific criticisms of Strauss's writing. What stands out in his writing is how far ahead of his time he was, and how well-crafted and vivid it is, even if you disagree with his ideas -- which his style of writing invites you to do. Somehow, that barely coherent writing had a big influence on Kafka, Primo Levi, Yeats, Thomas Mann, Freud. |
7th June 2011, 10:07 AM | #254 |
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7th June 2011, 10:28 AM | #255 |
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In the first post, I refer to the "madness" possessed by arguably the two foremost novelists of the past 500 years, the foremost playwright, the foremost philosopher, the foremost religious figures, and the foremost musicians of the 20th century. The madness possessed by all of them is or at least is akin to schizophrenia. Carl Jung himself says that kundalini (the energy that brings "enlightenment") at its worst is equivalent to schizophrenia; but the most famous men are the ones who suffer the worst: "the more perfect you are, the more you feel of pleasure & of pain."-Dante
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7th June 2011, 10:28 AM | #256 |
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This is crap. Pure, utter, unadulterated crap. I want the ten seconds it took to read this back. |
7th June 2011, 10:30 AM | #257 |
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Sorry, but all these pronouncements are simply crap. None of this has any worth or value to life.
And I say this as a published poet, a real poet, who isn't mad. |
7th June 2011, 10:35 AM | #258 |
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7th June 2011, 10:38 AM | #259 |
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7th June 2011, 10:39 AM | #260 |
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the link about scientists like Einstein making discoveries by tapping into the subconscious should work now; I never said the link mentioned fasting & sleep deprivation, but fasting & sleep deprivation make it easier to access the dream state,subconscious,unconscious while awake. Here's another related link on Einstein's method of discovery: http://www.geniusintelligence.com/einsteinsroutine.htm. The word for enlightenment in Hinduism, OM, represents a combo of the dreamless sleep, dream, & waking states, in other words, dreaming while awake.
and Einstein was a fan of the Bhagavad Gita http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/articles...ita/Page1.html, in which Krishna says "he who eats little will come to me" and says much about the need to abstain from food in order to gain a vision of higher truth, as do all the most famous religious & philosophical texts I've quoted. His view on God is the same view found in the Bhagavad Gita; the text expresses the greatest profundities, I say to the ignorant ones among you who dismiss it without having closely studied it. "Both deism and traditional Judeo-Christian-Islamic theism must also be contrasted with pantheism, the notion attributed to Baruch Spinoza (d. 1677) that the deity is associated with the order of nature or the universe itself. This also crudely summarizes the Hindu view and that of many indigenous religions around the world. When modern scientists such as Einstein and Stephen Hawking mention 'God' in their writings, this is what they seem to mean: that God is Nature." -- Victor J Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001), chapter 3 |
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7th June 2011, 10:44 AM | #261 |
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7th June 2011, 10:48 AM | #262 |
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7th June 2011, 10:58 AM | #263 |
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1. As people have told you in other threads, epilepsy is not "madness." An epileptic who is not currently having a seizure has normal cognitive functions, unless s/he has another mental disorder that impairs those functions.
2. Writing about "mad" people is not the same as being "mad." There is no evidence, for instance, that Shakespeare, for all his insights about "madness", had anything other than normal cognitive functions. 3. Adopting a name implying "madness" does not necessarily mean the person has reduced cognitive functions. "Lady Gaga" is nothing but a shrewd marketer in the Cyndi Lauper/Madonna vein; there is no evidence she has abnormal cognitive function. 4. There is no evidence of "demon possession." Many great musicians used drugs; many of those drugs may have influenced their music; this is not supernatural and does not imply reduced cognitive function when not under the influence of drugs. 5. Real mental illness is not divine, blissful, wonderful, or something to be wished for. As someone who has suffered mental illness and has family members who have suffered mental illness, it is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. Real mental illness makes people alienate their friends and family, withdraw from society, harm themselves or others and (in extreme cases) commit homicide and/or suicide. 6. Mania (or the manic phase of bipolar disorder) is a real mental illness, and help is possible if you suffer from it. I don't know from your postings whether you do or not, gjpogiatzis, but if you do, please get yourself some professional help. 7. Kundalini is bull-puckey. |
7th June 2011, 10:59 AM | #264 |
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all the foremost poets claimed to be inspired/possessed by the Muses: Homer, Virgil, Dante, Milton, etc.
So this statement is no lie: Plato's Ion: "All good poets...compose their beautiful poems not by art, but b/c they are INSPIRED&POSSESSED...not in their right mind when they are composing their beautiful strains: but when falling under the power of MUSIC and metre they are inspired and possessed." ...and still applies today: Demon-possessed musicians: Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, Elvis, Michael Jackson, etc.: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...rock_curse.htm |
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7th June 2011, 11:00 AM | #265 |
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7th June 2011, 11:02 AM | #266 |
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You fail to understand the concept of metaphor. Look it up, learn it, live it.
No. Just no. ETA: I tried to go to that link. My nanny software at work wouldn't let me; it blocked the site, citing "Racism and hate." Is that accurate (the software does overreact sometimes)? |
7th June 2011, 11:04 AM | #267 |
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It wasn't a joke. I call it "poking the dragon" (a reference to my wife's practice, in fantasy games, of poking dragons with a stick to get a reaction out of them). Obviously responding to the OP politely doesn't work. So I gave a counter-argument: He's basing his assessment off of people who are insane. 9 times out of 10 this will get the person to explain themselves better. In this case, the reaction was "Yes, they were. Insanity is wisdom."
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7th June 2011, 11:08 AM | #268 |
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@gjpogiatzis
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7th June 2011, 11:08 AM | #269 |
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1. The word "lunatic" in the Bible is sometimes translated as "epileptic." Coincidence? The behavior of someone having a seizure is certainly not "normal".
2. The poet Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream: "The lunatic, the lover, & the poet are of imagination all compact. One sees more devils than all hell can hold...[due to opening of Third Eye]" Why on earth do you think his two most famous tragedies Hamlet & King Lear have madness as a principal theme, especially in light of my references to Plato, Don Quixote, etc.? There must be something very important about "madness" if the world's principal works of literature are about it, don't you think? 3. Lady Gaga constantly implies her "third eye" is opened, which produces strange visions not given to normal consciousness, the kind attributed to a lunatic in the aforementioned quote from Shakespeare. http://vigilantcitizen.com/musicbusi...minati-puppet/ 4. No evidence of demon possession!!! You must have not looked at this link which I posted above! http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...rock_curse.htm 5. For all the suffering Dostoevsky experienced from epilepsy, he said he experienced a moment of heaven on earth before his seizures started that he said he wouldn't trade for all the world. He also said that Mohammed was having a seizure when Mohammed said he was having a vision of heaven. A synonym for "rapture" is "seizure". |
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7th June 2011, 11:11 AM | #270 |
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7th June 2011, 11:15 AM | #271 |
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7th June 2011, 11:18 AM | #272 |
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Hmm. I initially read the title of the OP as Go Crazy to Win Truth! Best Poes Are "Mad" I still think that's what is going on here.
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7th June 2011, 11:21 AM | #273 |
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I was making an attempt to steer the conversation towards consideration of what is human virtue? I'll try again:
"So I quoted the Gita's saying that the good is to "delight in the good of all". But what is the "good" of all? I.e. What is the ideal in man, which the "good" man seeks to cultivate in all men and in himself? For Nietzsche, this ideal is "the Ubermensch" (the Superman). What do you think about the "ideal" in man, or, what do you think about Nietzsche's ideal?" Socrates in Plato's Apology: "I cannot ‘mind my own business’… to let no day pass w/o discussing goodness &all the other subjects about which you hear me talking&examining both myself&others is reallyTHE VERY BEST THING THAT A MAN CAN DO,& a life w/o this sort of examination is NOT WORTH LIVING." |
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7th June 2011, 11:28 AM | #274 |
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I don't care how words are translated in the Bible. Remember, they're translating a word from an ancient language, from a culture that did not have our scientific and medical knowledge, and from a document that was not intended to give medical information. I don't know what Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic word(s) might have been translated into "lunatic" or "epileptic," or what the agendas of the translators might have been, so this means less than nothing to me.
I agree that the behaviour of someone in the midst of a seizure is not "normal." Nor is the behaviour of someone who has just won the lottery; that does not make that person insane. Similarly, the epileptic is ill, but not "mad" or insane. Did you read the rest of Theseus's speech? The part you quoted refers only to the "lunatic." We can learn a lot about normal psychology by examining abnormal psychology. Hamlet is also about jealousy, love, hate, and (possibly) the Oedipus complex, and these things drive Hamlet "mad". Remember, too, that Hamlet's "madness" (jealousy, anger, whatever) leads him to kill his best friend's father, drive his girlfriend to suicide, and eventually die. Was Shakespeare glorifying "madness"? I think not. [quote=gjpogiatzis;7259588]3. Lady Gaga constantly implies her "third eye" is opened, which produces strange visions not given to normal consciousness, the kind attributed to a lunatic in the aforementioned quote from Shakespeare. http://vigilantcitizen.com/musicbusi...minati-puppet/ [quote] As I said, she is a self-promoter. She will say whatever she needs to say to get attention, to sell songs and concert tickets. She is much more interested in the public eye than the "third eye." No, as I said, the nanny software here at work didn't let me. However, I have read and heard lots from Christian groups (see the domain name in the cite!) trying to "prove" that rock music is Satanic and the musicians are devil-worshippers or whatever. It's never convinced me before, why should this site be any different? So? I don't doubt that Dostoevsky suffered from epilepsy. I do doubt that it has anything to do with his writing ability. I have known epileptics who had no particular creative talent at all. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that Mohammed and other prophets suffered from epilepsy or other disorders of the brain. However, to me, that explains why they thought they were having divine visions, it does not make epilepsy or other brain disorders into methods for perceiving the divine. And be careful with synonyms. After all, a synonym for "saviour" is "life-saver", which is also a candy, but I don't advocate sucking on Jesus. |
7th June 2011, 11:45 AM | #275 |
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Not mad?
Reminds me of old joke. Farmer: I had to shoot my dog yesterday. Neighbor: Why, was he mad? Farmer: Well, he sure as hell wasn't pleased! Digression over, I agree with you. You need not be mad to be creative, though some creative people pay that price. There are abundant cases of creative geniuses who were not insane. Shakespeare comes to mind. He may have written of madness, but he was, by all accounts, sane in his own life. Haydn. Rembrandt, you can list on and on. I seem to recall a quotation from Flaubert that went something like "live your life quietly, like a bourgeois, so that you can be violent and original in your work." This and related threads remind me a bit of some of the young people I knew back in the 60's and the mystical wisdom they thought they found under hallucinogens and marijuana, before they grew up and realized it was just hypnagogic rubble, fun while it lasts, but useless when it's over. |
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7th June 2011, 11:45 AM | #276 |
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So, how's that working for ya? /Dr. Phil
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7th June 2011, 12:10 PM | #277 |
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I'm sorry, I thought I had been clear. Allow me to recap :
No. I'm not willing to undergo suffering by forsaking food for a greater bliss. Not even slightly. My willingness to do this is zero.
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7th June 2011, 12:17 PM | #278 |
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I don't think that the best way to approach Nietzsche's ideals is through the brief mention of the ubermensch, which, as far as I know, only occurs in Zarathustra. But if you broaden the discussion a little, there are whole chapters in his books that describe his ideals.
First, Fred really was a cultural elitist. That is, he thought that cultures should be judged by the greatest artists and thinkers they produced. However, his elitism wasn't financial (the rich are entitled) or political (those in power are there because they deserve to be) or nationalistic (Germany is great) or anti-Semitic. He was explicitly opposed to nationalism and anti-Semitism, up to his last coherent words. He wasn't some kind of capitalist, either. His ideal was Goethe, and the pre-Socratic Greeks. He thought that Socrates might have been a bad influence, because of his emphasis on pure rationality. Up until the break, Wagner was another of his ideals. Then later he turned against him, and his music. He was much more clearly opposed to the cultural effects of Christianity and the resentment that he thought was a major part of Christianity than he was in favor of some program that would produce future supermen. Having said this much, and probably some things that are wrong, let me go back to the books and skim the relevant chapters. If we're talking about Nietzsche, we should at least be reading whole chapters. He can't be understood by reference to a single image. More tomorrow. Even after we've understood him, we'd probably agree that he had no workable practical proposals for a future society. The closest thing in the contemporary world to a culture unified by a single ideal is the theocracy in Iran, which would have horrified Nietzsche. He was a better cultural critic than he was a political thinker with useful ideas. The Ubermensch and the Last Man are only two striking images in his worst book, Zarathustra, IMO, and they don't recur in his other books. Yikes. Look at the time! |
7th June 2011, 12:26 PM | #279 |
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7th June 2011, 12:30 PM | #280 |
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the key variable of a mad genius is the genius, though the madness can color the genius and drive it to places most fear to tread.
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