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7th June 2011, 12:49 PM | #281 |
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7th June 2011, 01:11 PM | #282 |
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Not all mad are genius. Not all genius are mad. Most mad are far from genius. Most genius are far from mad. So what have we learned?
Are the best genius mad? Are the most mad genius? I don't know. But I doubt it. And if so, it's pure coincidence. |
7th June 2011, 01:36 PM | #283 |
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This is all very sad. I think I prefer not to play anymore.
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7th June 2011, 01:37 PM | #284 |
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Shakespeare was mad? That's a new one on me.
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7th June 2011, 01:54 PM | #285 |
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7th June 2011, 01:55 PM | #286 |
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7th June 2011, 03:05 PM | #287 |
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There are plenty of people on the earth starving. I think you'd be hard put to find this a source of wisdom.
As usual, I'm reminded of a joke, or more accurately, a humorous story told by a comedian/folksinger named Gamble Rogers. One of his characters responds to a yuppie critic of materialism thus: "Let them that don't want none have memories of not getting any." |
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7th June 2011, 03:42 PM | #288 |
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7th June 2011, 03:46 PM | #289 |
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7th June 2011, 05:30 PM | #290 |
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The entire argument here is "Some people with X trait also have Y trait; therefore Y causes X!" There are a number of fallacies here. Worse, this deals with mental illness. A very good friend of the family died a few years back due to mental illness, so I have a sense of what horrors mental illness can cause for those who don't have it--I can't begin to imagine the terror for those who DO suffer it. It's beyond callouse disregard for others to claim that there's anything good about mental illness; it's to wish the worst torture imaginable, the loss of your own mind, on others.
Originally Posted by bruto
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7th June 2011, 06:00 PM | #291 |
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This may not be the best place, or the most opportune moment, but Ahem...I shout poetry at people in places where they may not expect it and they give me money when I ask them because I'm a real poet, and I'm not mad. I've not been published*, bar my own production of 'merchandise'. Publishers just intercept money due to poets. They don't define what a 'real' poet is.
(*Not strictly true, I got in an anthology once by trying to win a £5k prize. But they must have taken everything submitted. It was a Buddy Holly memorial anthology, 'edited' by P. McCartney and R. McGough, and they printed my rhyming poem, my free verse and the clerihew: Buddy Holly We were not jolly When your plane fell out of the sky What an appallingly tragic young age at which to die ...like I said, they weren't picky. Oh, and I got in the last ever edition of Iron magazine when the publisher bought something I'd just performed at a festival.) On schizophrenia, meh - I've known three schizophrenics at various times in various places and two were startlingly good visual artists. That's a very small sample to draw any conclusions from, but enough that I read the OP and thought 'schizophrenia'. I'd rather see their art, if they have any. |
7th June 2011, 06:12 PM | #292 |
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I was defining "mad" the way Plato defines it in the Ion & Phaedrus: being "inspired" & "possessed" by a spirit, and having abnormal states of consciousness in which strange visions are experienced while awake, just as the Hindu word for enlightenment signifies to be dreaming while you are awake. The following quotations clearly show that Plato is correct in his assessment about the greatest poets/musicians, like the most famous epic poets who all began their works by invoking the Muses:
“[Of his music JOHN LENNON said] “It’s like being possessed: like a psychic or a medium” Robert Plant and Jimmy Page of LED ZEPPELIN both claim that they don’t know who wrote their occultic song Stairway to Heaven. Plant testified: “Pagey had written the chords and played them for me. I was holding the paper and pencil, and for some reason, I was in a very bad mood. Then all of a sudden my hand was writing out words. … I just sat there and looked at the words and then I almost leaped out of my seat” (Davin Seay, Stairway to Heaven, p. 249). “It’s amazing, ’cause sometimes when we’re on stage, I feel like somebody’s just moving the pieces. ... I’m just going, ‘God, we don’t have any control over this.’ And that’s magic” (Stevie Nicks of FLEETWOOD MAC, Circus, April 14, 1971). “We receive our songs by inspiration, like at a séance” (Keith Richards of the ROLLING STONES, Rolling Stone, May 5, 1977, p. 55). “I felt like a hollow temple filled with many spirits, each one passing through me, each inhabiting me for a little time and then leaving to be replaced by another” (John Lennon, People, Aug. 22, 1988, p. 70). and more such quotations on http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...rock_curse.htm. And I am not condemning these musicians like the person who made this website is, I am quoting it only because it is a particularly good compilation of quotations concerning demon-possession & modern musicians. The word "demon" or "daimon" in Ancient Greek, however, did not automatically carry the negative connotations it does today; it simply means "spirit" and in Plato's Symposium Diotima calls the "god" of Love not a god but a great "daimon" ("demon" is derived from this Greek word).! If you are true philosophers and desire to live the most fulfilled life and escape dangers in the future, I encourage all of you to think and research much deeper into what the Bible and these other texts teach about "The Holy Spirit/Ghost" who "will guide you into ALL truth" (John 16:13) in light of what is discussed in this thread. The world's greatest mystery: "the MYSTERY of the Christ in you, the hope of glory."-Col.1:27 i.e. of the Kundalini. |
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7th June 2011, 06:18 PM | #293 |
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http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...78443&sk=wall: My facebook wall, where I post what the Great Books,authors (Bible,Plato,Tao te Ching,Gita,Nietzsche, etc.) teach about the world's deepest mysteries: God/Satan, good/evil, happiness/misery, heaven/hell, life/death, etc. Send me a friend request. |
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7th June 2011, 06:22 PM | #294 |
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I love all nukes universally. They give you a great tan.
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7th June 2011, 08:28 PM | #295 |
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None of those pages offer a proper citation of Einstein actually stating such things. They simply make assertions as to what he believed/thought. Please link to a reference where Einstein actually claims to be a "fan of the Bhagavad Gita" or that he "makes discoveries by tapping into the subconscious". Here is an example of a proper citation of Einstein and his beliefs: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008) |
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7th June 2011, 08:53 PM | #296 |
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I see what you did there. You started by talking about the subconscious mind and mentioned that some creative insights were the result of tapping into one's own subconscious. That is not a difficult concept to accept. If a person has been working on an idea for months or years, then it is possible that part of the brain may come up with some solution.
But! But you ended with "collective unconsciousness." There is no evidence for a collective consciousness whatsoever. |
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7th June 2011, 09:02 PM | #297 |
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How about it, Gjpogiatzis? Can you give us an example of some profound wisdom that was acquired in this manner and show that it could not have been acquired in any other way?
For instance, I can give an example of a profound truth that can be acquired without fasting: Slavery is wrong. Claiming ownership of a human being is not acceptable. I, and many others, arrived at this wisdom without fasting, trancing, spirit walking, meditating, dreaming, suffering epileptic seizures,1 hallucinating, or asking the shaman for advice. Oh, and we arrived at this truth without reading about Bible characters who had out-of-body experiences. ............ 1) I still have no idea what to make of an educated, first-world resident in the twenty-first century who believes there is a divine element to the illness of epilepsy. WTF? |
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7th June 2011, 09:27 PM | #298 |
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My knowledge of Buddhaism is weak, but isn't Gjpogiatzis gretly mischaracterizing the Buddha's message. Wasn't the first enlightenment to come to the Buddah the idea that fasting to achieve enlightenment is the wrong approach? Instead one should seek a middle way where one is not enamored of food but one does not forsake food. It is a necessary element but one should not focus too much attention upon it. Saying that one should shun fine foods (or foods that inflame the passions) is very different from saying one should shun all food.
Can a knowledgeable person comment on this matter? |
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7th June 2011, 09:29 PM | #299 |
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7th June 2011, 10:15 PM | #300 |
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The common story is that the "middle way" came from his insane self-torture. "Torturing myself doesn't work! Chilling out and flowing with nature makes me feel good! Let's start a religion!" That's absolutely as complex as Buddism gets.
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7th June 2011, 10:18 PM | #301 |
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7th June 2011, 11:05 PM | #302 |
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I didn't get any money. I was published in college, and won my prizes there as well. I don't define who is a real poet for anyone but myself. I hear what you're saying, but I was only talking about myself.
Money doesn't make you a poet. Writing poetry does. Having other people read that poetry, and want to publish it, to award you First Prize, helps that perception along. I write it. Others have read it. Therefore, I am. |
7th June 2011, 11:31 PM | #303 |
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Ah, yes, of course!
It is really sad though, isn't it, to know that there are so many people who believe they have achieved some higher state of being, are in communication with non-human spirits or beings, and are, therefore, able to pity us poor folk who think it can, or will be sooner or later, all be explained by the action of the brain. If only they themselves would take the credit for their imaginative ideas .... but of course that would mean they would imagine themselves to be too ordinary, instead of appreciating their own control of their lives. Ah, well! Having the time to do so, I read and post on the graham Hancock forum and the Ship of Fools, where I do my best to wave the flag of rationality!! On the BBC Christian Topic message board, there are some very good philosophers whose posts are so interesting to read. |
7th June 2011, 11:40 PM | #304 |
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"Here we go again.... semantic and syntactic chicanery and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen.... the bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from the attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking." - Leumas |
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8th June 2011, 12:08 AM | #305 |
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The strategy of taking texts out of context to add authority to something is kind of a well practiced method. Alfred Tarski - "No sufficiently powerful language is strongly-semantically-self-representational." |
8th June 2011, 12:33 AM | #306 |
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Aristotle - "No great genius was without a mixture of insanity".
But even if true, so what? Insanity is not something to be cultivated for the moral benefit of the 'sane'. This all sounds like an argument that for thousands of years religion has cultivated insanity and the suffering of millions of people for it's own promotion, and that is a good thing. I struggle for an appropriate illustration. Maybe religious insanity is like having someone else take poison that makes you feel better. |
8th June 2011, 12:34 AM | #307 |
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I think it is a mistake to examine "human virtue" without considering that we share most of the same values as the rest of the life on this planet. We are "expressing" something, not making it up.
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8th June 2011, 12:42 AM | #308 |
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Altered states of mind evolved for a purpose just like the rest of our biology. Stop teaching people to abuse their biology, it's sick and immoral.
The confusion over why mental illness is sometimes linked with genius is because in those cases, the mental illness is a pathology of the genius. There are many modern evolutionary hypotheses as to how evolution relates to mental illness. These aspects of our biology are the newest and the least refined, they are sensitive. Personally I went insane from this type of thinking when I was young. I learn to pay close attention to facts about reality, that's how I've managed to become sane again. |
8th June 2011, 03:03 AM | #309 |
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8th June 2011, 03:05 AM | #310 |
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8th June 2011, 04:21 AM | #311 |
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Mental illness can give you an advantage for certain kinds of thinking just like being a sociopath might help your chance of survival, it's a benefit with an unacceptable cost, and an accident of nature that it exists. Recommending people try to mimic or appreciate this phenomenon is insane. Mentally ill geniuses tend to live extremely tormented lives as well as think great things.
Sometimes a balance can be struck, but this is just a natural phenomenon that contains no deeper meaning. Any allusion to this idea is an evil influence on vulnerable people looking for answers. This kind of logic led to "speaking in tongues" and other destructive nonsense. People drive themselves insane trying to "raise the kunlandi" all the time, it's a travesty, this kind of thing objectively ruins people's lives. This isn't just stupid, this is incredibly harmful. Anyone looking to study the connection between evolution and mental illness may not be able to do any better than Nesse's chapter on "Evolutionary Psychology and Mental Illness" (entire chapter reproduced there) in David Buss's textbook on EP. Naturalist and scientific thinking is by far the healthiest way to live. |
8th June 2011, 04:31 AM | #312 |
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It is the silliest thread possible. But also a very dangerous and in some places repulsive idea.
I highly recommend this article, "Do you have to be nuts to be a genius?" written by a neuroscience phD with quotes from the leaders of the field, such as
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8th June 2011, 05:45 AM | #313 |
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Let me take a few wild swings now, then I'll come back later after having done some more reading.
I still think the key to understanding him is by what he opposed: Weak-minded optimism, narrow specialization, technological triumphalism, nihilism caused by denying instinctual energies, nationalism, Christianity, herd instinct, among other things. He would say that the pre-Socratic philosophers were strong enough to embrace a tragic view of life, and that their intellect was well-balanced with their instincts. Socrates, with his endless demands for definitions, and his over-reliance on rationality, was somehow a decadent type. I'm flailing, here. Goethe represented someone strong enough and brilliant enough to synthesize knowledge from different fields, and at the same time to remain creative and passionate. Now, which Nietzsche are we talking about? Birth of Tragedy? (Early) Human, All-Too Human (Early-Middle) Dawn The Gay Science (or, Joyful Wisdom) Zarathustra Fifth book of The Gay Science Beyond Good & Evil (Middle-Late) The Genealogy of Morals (Late-ish) Twilight of the Idols and The AntiChrist (Late) Ecce Homo (one of the last things he wrote before his collapse) Depending on which period you're talking about, his views changed. Basically, they got harder and more extreme. There's an excellent essay called The Importance of Nietzsche, by Erich Heller, which I'm reading right now, which helps answer the question of why we should bother with Fred at all. Also, Leslie Paul Thiele is another good writer on Nietzsche. |
8th June 2011, 06:50 AM | #314 |
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8th June 2011, 06:55 AM | #315 |
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What makes you think that those who dismiss these ideas have not closely studied them?
Perhaps some of us know these texts better than you do. I certainly know the Quran better than you do. Really what you are doing here is cherry picking little quotes out of context and melding them together in a way which you think supports your your bland anodyne version of mysticism. You are doing these traditions no service. |
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8th June 2011, 07:10 AM | #316 |
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Yes there is. Ethnographic comparison makes the collective unconscious stand out quite clearly. Spend a few years away from internet forums and studying comparative mythology, comparative mysticism, comparative religion, and you will see that there is overwhelming evidence for a collective unconscious. But I believe I have told you that before to no avail. But anyway. gjpogiatzis, nice thread but you are probably wasting your time. If the average JREFer was capable of benefiting from your words then they wouldn't need them in the first place. |
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8th June 2011, 07:19 AM | #317 |
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Actually, my memory is very, very bad, so I will acknowledge that you may have made this claim before. Can you provide a citation?
ETA: I was defining it as a repository of knowledge that geniuses like Einstein could use to access insights into relativistic physics. How are you defining it? |
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8th June 2011, 07:25 AM | #318 |
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We all hate poverty, war, and injustice Unlike the rest of you squares. Tom Lehrer - Folk Song Army |
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8th June 2011, 07:27 AM | #319 |
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I'm a historian (masters in history, specializing in medieval). I have studied mythology, mysticism (particularly medieval in my case) and religion. Show me any kind of actual evidence for a collective unconscious. I don't know of any reputable historian that advances such a theory. Overwhelming evidence my butt. There is always a tendency amongst new age idiots to simultaneously underestimate ancient people while at the same time giving them powers that are just silly. People in the past where just as smart as we are, and sometimes impressively clever and daring. They traveled farther than we often think possible, thought of incredibly clever things and accomplished marvels. However, they didn't have super technology, didn't have aliens helping them and were not psychic with collective anything. All those are just modern fantasies that we have twisted from our past mythologies. Try reading some real history. Then talk. |
8th June 2011, 08:32 AM | #320 |
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I have known a lot of fellow musicians over the years.None of them showed any signs of autism.
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