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Old Yesterday, 12:51 PM   #81
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
You did not answer my question.
The Nazis killed more Jews, gypsies, gays, communists, enemy combatants and civilians from outside of Germany than from Germany. How is pointing that out defending Hitler?
OK so when I said Stalin killed more than twice as many as the Germans. ddt picked up on that I dropped a comma, or forgot to cross a t, to score a point that I used the phrase 'own citizens' (it could be argued that as Germany was occupying these countries, they were its own citizens, just as Stalin's victims were probably largely non-Russians).


It doesn't change the thrust that just because Germans were 'baddies', it doesn't make Russia the 'good guys', either.
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Old Yesterday, 12:59 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Try Wolf Cave.

I know for a fact there have been Stone Age finds in parts of Finland.
How does this contradict the assertion that Finland was a stone age civilization 2000 years ago?

Also, the "Wolf Cave" is HIGHLY controversial. Its apparent uniqueness makes it even more unlikely that the findings are actually anthropogenic.
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Old Yesterday, 01:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
OK so when I said Stalin killed more than twice as many as the Germans. ddt picked up on that I dropped a comma, or forgot to cross a t, to score a point that I used the phrase 'own citizens'


It doesn't change the thrust that just because Germans were 'baddies', it doesn't make Russia the 'good guys', either.
Hitler started a war of aggression that killed 50 million people. In Russia alone, as many as 14 million civiliians died from the invasion.

How in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that Stalin "killed twice as many", even if we grant the at best highly contentious assertions that the great famines of Ukraine and Central Asia were intentional? Can I see a breakdown of the numbers, please?

Quote:
(it could be argued that as Germany was occupying these countries, they were its own citizens, just as Stalin's victims were probably largely non-Russians).
I'd love to see you "argue" this, since this is obviously not a desperate attempt at covering up the fact that your assertions were mind-bogglingly ignorant. I assume you have international case law on hand?
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Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM   #84
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Here's an internet source re the Swedes harbouring escaped war criminals, from another angle:

Quote:
Sweden's Refusal to Prosecute Nazi War Criminals:
1986-2002

Efraim Zuroff



Toward the end of World War II, an unspecified number of Latvian and Estonian Nazi war criminals escaped to Sweden among a wave of Baltic refugees fleeing the advancing Soviet Army. Although the Swedish government established a special commission to investigate their wartime activities, no legal action was ever taken against any of these escaped Holocaust perpetrators.
To balance this out, here's a heartwarming story about our Swedish cousins, from THE TIMES 2 Oct 1944:

Quote:
HEADLINE: GERMANS FALL BACK IN FINLAND

FRONTIER TOWN IN FLAMES

from our Correspondent, Stockholm, Oct 2

Since noon to-day, a large part of the Finnish frontier town, Tornio has been in flames, apparently since the Germans set fire to the municipal secondary school, their last stronghold after the Finns pressed home a surprise attack, whIch they launched on Sunday morning.

According to observers in Haparanda, on the Swedish side of the frontier, a south-easterly gale made the fire spread and the chances of saving the wooden-built town are small. During the night, only intermittent rifle fire was heard, and this morning, the Germans were seen withdrawing from the school to the north. The attack cost the Finns forty casualties, including a captain, the first night.

When it was learnt in Haparanda that many wounded Finns were in danger of bleeding to death for lack of medical supplies, a Finn living in Sweden rowed across the frontier with a supply of dressings. Later, some 50 wounded Finns were sent to Haparanda by boat and given medical attention at a Swedish field hospital.
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Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Hitler started a war of aggression that killed 50 million people. In Russia alone, as many as 14 million civiliians died from the invasion.

How in the world do you arrive at the conclusion that Stalin "killed twice as many", even if we grant the at best highly contentious assertions that the great famines of Ukraine and Central Asia were intentional? Can I see a breakdown of the numbers, please?



I'd love to see you "argue" this, since this is obviously not a desperate attempt at covering up the fact that your assertions were mind-bogglingly ignorant. I assume you have international case law on hand?

It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
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Old Yesterday, 02:08 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
Yes, I disagree. The notion that "Stalin killed 20 million" is based on Robert Conquest's cartoon villain caricature of Stalin and downright dishonest demographic calculations. It also depends on accepting that the Great Famines were deliberately engineered by Stalin (extremely unlikely; in fact plenty of aid was distributed) and that Stalin was solely or mainly responsible for the purges (also increasingly unlikely; the increasingly common view is that he was one cog in a much larger machinery of party radicalism and in-fighting).

If you only count deliberately targeted civilians for Hitler, you still end up with more than 6 million - closer to 11 or 12 million, counting homosexuals, Poles, other Slavs, et cetera. If you include broader war crimes resulting in mass death, well, the number just shoots away. Even if you counterfactually take Stalin to be directly responsible for pretty much everything that occurred while he was General Secretary you're not getting north of maybe 7 million.

There's not really any comparison. Stalin was a brutal, callous tyrant culpable in a long range of crimes, but he wasn't Hitler.
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's an internet source re the Swedes harbouring escaped war criminals, from another angle:



To balance this out, here's a heartwarming story about our Swedish cousins, from THE TIMES 2 Oct 1944:
"An unspecified number"? Zero? Five? A hundred thousand?
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Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM   #88
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It's official. As reported by THE TIMES 5 Oct 1943 - before the end of the war - and the quality of their reporters being second to none in sheer intricate front line intelligence. The reporters probably were intelligence agents as their bylines are anonymous.


Quote:

FINLAND'S DILEMMA

MOVES FOR A SEPARATE PEACE WITH RUSSIA

HESITATIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT

From Our Special Correspondent Lately in Finland

[snipped]

FINNISH HOPES

Despite a growing criticism of the Government's tendency to wait too long, the whole situation is moving towards the realization that the country, if it is to avoid disaster, must take the necessary steps. Finland always insisted she fought only for her own interest, not for Germany. For instance, she resolutely refused all German demands for participation in operations against Leningrad. Therefore Finland cannot be included, Finnish spokesmen maintain, in the Casablanca decision of unconditional surrender.
(My italics.)

So there we have it from an on-the-spot intelligence agent as of that date.

Any other version of history is pure revisionism and hindsight.
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Old Yesterday, 03:04 PM   #89
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Well, on WWII I'll say this. The Swedes I know are generally ashamed of remaining neutral during the war, which is IMO a far healthier attitude than talking up those who allied with the Nazis.
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Old Yesterday, 03:28 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Well, on WWII I'll say this. The Swedes I know are generally ashamed of remaining neutral during the war, which is IMO a far healthier attitude than talking up those who allied with the Nazis.
Talking up? No. Trying to strictly factual.
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Old Yesterday, 03:47 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Well, on WWII I'll say this. The Swedes I know are generally ashamed of remaining neutral during the war, which is IMO a far healthier attitude than talking up those who allied with the Nazis.
Apart from the general practicalities and the question of what Sweden really would have been able to contribute as a co-belligerent, there was indeed the issue that the combination of overt supporters of Nazism (including King Gustaf V, who wrote a personal thank-you letter to Hitler on the commencement of Operation Barbarossa) and rabid anti-Bolsheviks led to an essentially split opinion on which side to support.

But as I noted, there were only 50,000 poorly equipped reservists at the start of the war. Apart from buying time, trade with the Nazis was also a way of acquiring equipment for them and the many new conscriptees (I believe political momentum only really materialized with the occupation of Norway, though).

I'd say the prominence enjoyed by eugenics and racial biology in Sweden during much of the 20th century is a more relevant target for criticism than the neutrality policy during the war, where there are few points where one can definitely say that the government was in the wrong given the circumstances.
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Old Yesterday, 04:29 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is just a figure of speech, based on the heuristic figures thrown about that the Germans 'killed 6 million', and Stalin 'killed 20 million'.

Do you disagree with this likely ratio?
I have a problem with the figure for the Germans' killings. The number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was about six million. Are you then stating that no other people were killed at all? That seems impossible in view of German atrocities in the occupied territories, especially Poland and the western regions of the then USSR.
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Old Yesterday, 04:34 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's official. As reported by THE TIMES 5 Oct 1943 - before the end of the war - and the quality of their reporters being second to none in sheer intricate front line intelligence. The reporters probably were intelligence agents as their bylines are anonymous.


(My italics.)

So there we have it from an on-the-spot intelligence agent as of that date.

Any other version of history is pure revisionism and hindsight.
Which? Revisionism is one thing and hindsight is very different. Wartime newspaper reports are sometimes corrected by hindsight. They often contain lies, particularly articles written by intelligence agents.
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Old Yesterday, 05:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Which? Revisionism is one thing and hindsight is very different. Wartime newspaper reports are sometimes corrected by hindsight. They often contain lies, particularly articles written by intelligence agents.
Nowadays, sure. Then the journalism (in THE TIMES) really top notch. My quote came from a three-quarter page of a broadsheet - no photos - just great detail.

Try this for size, from THE INDEPENDENT, 17 April 2017:

Quote:
The Allied Powers were aware of the scale of the Jewish Holocaust two-and-a-half years earlier than is generally assumed, and had even prepared war crimes indictments against Adolf Hitler and his top Nazi commanders.

Newly accessed material from the United Nations – not seen for around 70 years – shows that as early as December 1942, the US, UK and Soviet governments were aware that at least two million Jews had been murdered and a further five million were at risk of being killed, and were preparing charges. Despite this, the Allied Powers did very little to try and rescue or provide sanctuary to those in mortal danger.
Note carefully the date.

Now compare and contrast it to a draft introductory paragraph of my own researched article:

Quote:
A few introductory notes: Germany started its Judenrein (‘Jew- Free’) extermination program in January 1941, initially with small mobile Einsatzkommando units, and by June 1941, there were mass killings, the first in Poland and then in Soviet Russia. By October 1942, the TIMES was reporting ‘the extermination of over 1.2m Jews’ with another news story in the TIMES in 1942 reporting a community of 30,000 Jews killed, including 12,000 children.

Reports (ibid) at the same time show repeated announcements by the Archbishop of Canterbury and Jewish elders from around the world about the plight that European Jews found themselves in. Thus, it was of common international knowledge, <snip>
Yes, I spotted the newspaper article in the TIMES dated Oct 1942, yet today's INDEPENDENT claims this information was only 'new' after seventy years of belief the revelation was two years later.*

I'll say these old quality journalists are superb if you want to follow ongoing situations, such as the Stalingrad seige. OK, there might be errors, but can't fault the 'first response' honesty, which vanishes bit by bit as the historians, politicians and spin doctors polish everything up to suit an agenda or 'script'.

*Imagine that! For 70 years we have been told 'no-one knew until 1944'.

This shows how sophisticated textbooks are, and less trustworthy than quality on-the-spot reporting.
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Old Yesterday, 05:14 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I have a problem with the figure for the Germans' killings. The number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was about six million. Are you then stating that no other people were killed at all? That seems impossible in view of German atrocities in the occupied territories, especially Poland and the western regions of the then USSR.
The assumption is 'of innocent civilians', rather than war casualties or natural disasters, such as famine.

As a caveat, the Russians and the Germans both had internment camps where many did starve to death / die of diseases as a result thereof, and they should be included in the figures.

TubbaBubba's assertion that 'Stalin didn't purge all these people personally', is absurd, as neither did Hitler.

It was certainly Stalin's regime and his paranoia about his comrades plotting to overthrow him that makes Stalin responsible for their deaths IMV.
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Old Yesterday, 05:46 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Talking up? No. Trying to strictly factual.
Oh, that ship sailed when you brought out that "Finland for 52,000 years" map.
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Old Yesterday, 06:13 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The assumption is 'of innocent civilians', rather than war casualties or natural disasters, such as famine.
Oh, pray tell, how did all those USSR citizens die if we're excluding famine?

Quote:
TubbaBubba's assertion that 'Stalin didn't purge all these people personally', is absurd, as neither did Hitler.

It was certainly Stalin's regime and his paranoia about his comrades plotting to overthrow him that makes Stalin responsible for their deaths IMV.
You have no clue what Soviet state atrocities actually looked like, do you? You think Stalin "purged" 20 million people?
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The assumption is 'of innocent civilians', rather than war casualties or natural disasters, such as famine.
We can discuss Stalin in a moment if you wish.

You have said that Hitler was responsible for a total of six million murders. But in the Holocaust he murdered six million Jews. Are you saying he murdered no other people?

So then you say he murdered six million innocent civilians in total. Are you then stating that many of the Jewish Holocaust victims were not innocent civilians? How many, and what were they?

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Old Today, 12:40 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Yes, I disagree. The notion that "Stalin killed 20 million" is based on Robert Conquest's cartoon villain caricature of Stalin and downright dishonest demographic calculations. It also depends on accepting that the Great Famines were deliberately engineered by Stalin (extremely unlikely; in fact plenty of aid was distributed) and that Stalin was solely or mainly responsible for the purges (also increasingly unlikely; the increasingly common view is that he was one cog in a much larger machinery of party radicalism and in-fighting).

If you only count deliberately targeted civilians for Hitler, you still end up with more than 6 million - closer to 11 or 12 million, counting homosexuals, Poles, other Slavs, et cetera. If you include broader war crimes resulting in mass death, well, the number just shoots away. Even if you counterfactually take Stalin to be directly responsible for pretty much everything that occurred while he was General Secretary you're not getting north of maybe 7 million.

There's not really any comparison. Stalin was a brutal, callous tyrant culpable in a long range of crimes, but he wasn't Hitler.
It's quite telling that Vixen hasn't replied to this post.
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